Manager Draft Semi Final - Balu Guttman VS The Capillows(EAP)

[antohan]

BTW where do people rate Van Basten in comparison to Eusebio and Puskas?

A less tactically flexible footballer, with a greater need for a team to be built around him, but one who is more likely to bury any sort of half chance he gets.

Capello's team is getting way over-rated here, and so is he as a manager. I doubt his team will be able to overcome his negativity to score any goals at all.

It is absurd that the score is 12-2. Too much nostalgia due to the Serie A highlights in the 90s

It's not about voting for Capello, Capello is simply the one defining the talent pool.

As Balu mentioned, he is getting a lot of kudos here thanks to a team he largely inherited. The only players on the pitch he actually bought himself were Desailly and Savicevic. The fact though is that the first season under Capello Milan were every bit as good if not better than they ever were under Sacchi. So yes, under Capello they did perform at the level people are taking into account when voting. Was it due to Capello or he just largely acted as a caretaker for an established team? Who cares? They were immense whichever way you look at it.

 

[antohan]

I personally rate Van Basten pretty close to Ronaldo (Brazilian one) and the latter is considered in same league as Eusbeio and Puskas by many so I won't say that he is not even in their tier.

Very much so. I think it's a bit apples and pears though and what makes that GOAT vs. next tier distinction is being one team unto themselves. Like Maradona or Pelé, Eusebio/Puskas had it in them to pretty much BE the team, creators and executioners. I can't however see van Basten having that sort of influence, if you know what I mean. Who would I rather was at the end of a through ball out of them all? van Basten, probably on par with Pelé but even more so than Ronaldo. IMO what Ronaldo had on van Basten was a better ability to get himself at the end of that through ball and/or past a defender if needed.

All this bearing in mind how the margins are wide as hairs when comparing such players, I'm not saying any of them were particularly poor at any of that stuff!

 

[Balu]

Who is overrated on that team? Baresi? Cafu? Maldini? Redondo?

He's definitely overrated on the Caf

 

[sajeev]

Who is overrated on that team? Baresi? Cafu? Maldini? Redondo?

Redondo - on the caf
Nedved - slightly (I absolutely loved him but I still think he is over-rated here)
Savicevic - again his impact at Milan wasn't consistent, considering the company he is in right now
Costacurta - he was great but here at least there is the benefit of the partnership. but among the Italian defenders of his generation, I definitely rated Bergomi higher

 

[antohan]

He's definitely overrated on the Caf

I don't think he is overrated as much as he is mis-rated, particularly in this context, as a completely different player from the one he was under Capello. Brilliant as Desailly was under Capello, I would much rather he had Rijkaard next to him TBH.

I'm a bit of a fanboi though, having tracked him all the way since 1987 or so. I still remember getting the El Gráfico mags and week in, week out, Redondo would be man of the match for Argentinos. Tenerife? Same thing really. Stunning player.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

BTW where do people rate Van Basten in comparison to Eusebio and Puskas?

In the FIFA Player of the Century (Specialist Votes), the forwards are ranked as below.

1. Pele
2. Cryuff
4. Di Stefano
6. Puskas
9. Eusebio
10. Bobby Charlton
12. van Basten
13. Muller

I would say, he ranks a shade below Eusebio and Puskas in this draft.

 

[Balu]

I don't think he is overrated as much as he is mis-rated, particularly in this context, as a completely different player from the one he was under Capello. Brilliant as Desailly was under Capello, I would much rather he had Rijkaard next to him TBH.

I'm a bit of a fanboi though, having tracked him all the way since 1987 or so. I still remember getting the El Gráfico mags and week in, week out, Redondo would be man of the match for Argentinos. Tenerife? Same thing really. Stunning player.

Of course he should have Rijkaard in the team. It's a no-brainer upgrade for the final in my opinion.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Redondo - on the caf
Nedved - slightly (I absolutely loved him but I still think he is over-rated here)
Savicevic - again his impact at Milan wasn't consistent, considering the company he is in right now
Costacurta - he was great but here at least there is the benefit of the partnership. but among the Italian defenders of his generation, I definitely rated Bergomi higher

I really don't think so.

In the first game, when I played Redondo and Albertini together, everyone admitted that it was not a complementary partnership. I don't think he is overrated at all. Maybe in previous drafts, but definitely not now.
Nedved & Savicevic - Not sure what you mean here. They are not played as individual match winners here, but in their positions they were very near to their career peaks under Capello. If you are looking at pace, creativity, workrate and a flexible threat out wide, there can only be few choices over Nedved.
Costacurta - This was debated in the main thread. Individually he was never world class, but they became legendary because of their partnership.

 

[crappycraperson]

Redondo - on the caf
Nedved - slightly (I absolutely loved him but I still think he is over-rated here)
Savicevic - again his impact at Milan wasn't consistent, considering the company he is in right now
Costacurta - he was great but here at least there is the benefit of the partnership. but among the Italian defenders of his generation, I definitely rated Bergomi higher

Rating Costacurta individually is pointless. As a part of defensive unit, is he a liability or weakness? No. So not sure what the point is of singling him out. Like I said Edgar can get Thuram going forward but a pointless upgrade IMO.

I doubt anyone is voting Edgar because of Savicevic. If he could replace him, he probably would.

Redondo perhaps is overrated on the caf simply because of his performance against us in that CL tie, that's just how it is. A section of Chelsea fans rated Hernandez more than United fans last season for the same reason. But like anto covered above, he was still a brilliant player.

I don't think Nedved is overrated at all, not seen him turn any match like Redondo can.

 

[antohan]

Redondo - on the caf
Nedved - slightly (I absolutely loved him but I still think he is over-rated here)
Savicevic - again his impact at Milan wasn't consistent, considering the company he is in right now
Costacurta - he was great but here at least there is the benefit of the partnership. but among the Italian defenders of his generation, I definitely rated Bergomi higher

See above re: Redondo.

I agree Nedved may get a bit too much draft kudos thanks to his ability to play pretty much anywhere in midfield, right, centre or left. Like Luis Enrique, he ends up being some sort of utility guy who will be assumed to perform at his peak level despite not being in his peak position or setup. That said, Nedved is perfect for this setup whereby Redondo needs support or else he could be targetted to choke the playmaking, and Gullit is free to push upfront as a second striker safe in the knowledge Nedved is beasting the AM role.

Savicevic is a bit of a wild card. With Cafú providing the width on the right and the playmaking, goalscoring and graft being taken care of elsewhere, he is exactly where you want him as a luxury player of sorts who could turn out to be decisive and MotM, but won't hurt you if he has an off game, not in this company.

Costacurta wasn't there when I started replying Agree about Bergomi, the partnership IS the entire point, you don't mess around with such a proven backline. I even had some misgivings about Cafú replacing Panucci, but what he does upfront in terms of individual impact, as well as allowing Savicevic to play with no specific instruction is well worth it.

 

[antohan]

Of course he should have Rijkaard in the team. It's a no-brainer upgrade for the final in my opinion.

I don't mean it as a like-for-like comparison (I'd argue Desailly was probably better under Capello), but the way he would better complement Redondo in this version of him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

BTW where do people rate Van Basten in comparison to Eusebio and Puskas?

Much of a muchness, really. But if pushed, I'd probably have Van B slightly below those two gents.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Re: Joya.

Isn't he known first and foremost as a left sided man? Not saying he can't play on the right, but in an ideal line-up, wouldn't he be on the left?

 

[Balu]

I don't mean it as a like-for-like comparison (I'd argue Desailly was probably better under Capello), but the way he would better complement Redondo in this version of him.

Phew, can't really argue against that. I'd just want Rijkaard in there for entertainment value. The team would play much much more exciting football.

 

[Balu]

Re: Joya.

Isn't he known first and foremost as a left sided man? Not saying he can't play on the right, but in an ideal line-up, wouldn't he be on the left?

@antohan said he could play on both sides. I thought about using Augusto instead, but Joya kinda grew on me with the funny stats discussion in the first game, so I opted for him instead. In the end there isn't much in it, Maldini will keep them quiet, but as long as they keep Maldini busy and away from the center, I'm happy.

 

[antohan]

Re: Joya.

Isn't he known first and foremost as a left sided man? Not saying he can't play on the right, but in an ideal line-up, wouldn't he be on the left?

Typically yes, but he did have a habit of switching flanks and could absolutely start on the right if required. He won't set the world alight here, clearly, but will keep Maldini busy and keeping Maldini busy with Joya is a better use of resources than keeping him busy with Garrincha only for him to stay firmly in his pocket anyway. Good deal. You have no idea how many times I cursed Garrincha for not being adept on the left when I had Joya-Eusebio-Garrincha against Suurbier-CB pair-Maldini

Phew, can't really argue against that. I'd just want Rijkaard in there for entertainment value. The team would play much much more exciting football.

Oh sure it would, if there's one thing I'm not liking about EAP is how relatively static his midfield pair are likely to be as a unit. Rijkaard shoots that to pieces

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@antohan said he could play on both sides. I thought about using Augusto instead, but Joya kinda grew on me with the funny stats discussion in the first game, so I opted for him instead. In the end there isn't much in it, Maldini will keep them quiet, but as long as they keep Maldini busy and away from the center, I'm happy.

Right 'o. I kind of like that 4-3-3 of yours (posted above) myself. But then again, I think the way to go here is to just...attack. You'll lose this match - as I think you knew you would, barring any unprecedented silliness on Edgar's part - so, yeah: Unleash that attacking force and make that famous defense work for their money.

 

[crappycraperson]

Typically yes, but he did have a habit of switching flanks and could absolutely start on the right if required. He won't set the world alight here, clearly, but will keep Maldini busy and keeping Maldini busy with Joya is a better use of resources than keeping him busy with Garrincha only for him to stay firmly in his pocket anyway. Good deal. You have no idea how many times I cursed Garrincha for not being adept on the left when I had Joya-Eusebio-Garrincha against Suurbier-CB pair-Maldini



Oh sure it would, if there's one thing I'm not liking about EAP is how relatively static his midfield pair are likely to be as a unit. Rijkaard shoots that to pieces

I had Garrincha up against Maldini as well in WC draft and had a hard time getting people to conceed that he would skin Maldini at least on couple of occasions.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

By the way, I don't like having to vote against B/P here. I love their team - easily my favourite in this draft alongside the Fergie one (but that's something completely different again).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Right 'o. I kind of like that 4-3-3 of yours (posted above) myself. But then again, I think the way to go here is to just...attack. You'll lose this match - as I think you knew you would, barring any unprecedented silliness on Edgar's part - so, yeah: Unleash that attacking force and make that famous defense work for their money.

Never unprecedented with me, tbh

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Never unprecedented with me, tbh

Just stay clear of that office supply of gin, man - at least until the win is well in the bag.

Your team is set up beautifully - wouldn't have changed a thing myself. Which means...they win.

 

[Raees]

Capello's team is getting way over-rated here, and so is he as a manager. I doubt his team will be able to overcome his negativity to score any goals at all.

It is absurd that the score is 12-2. Too much nostalgia due to the Serie A highlights in the 90s

The score is unfair on Balu I agree, in reality it would be a closer game for sure but EAP's team being overrated? not a chance. Van Basten is a monstrous player, one of the most complete strikers of all time.. is he better than Puskas and Eusebio? that is irrelevant because he is a genius in his own right and a match for any defender in history. He would definitely score goals in this match, he's surrounded by too much quality not to.

 

[antohan]

@antohan said he could play on both sides. I thought about using Augusto instead, but Joya kinda grew on me with the funny stats discussion in the first game, so I opted for him instead. In the end there isn't much in it, Maldini will keep them quiet, but as long as they keep Maldini busy and away from the center, I'm happy.

How dare you?

Joya beats José Augusto 18-6, drawing six times, including the all important Keeper Skills Category.

CATEGORY JOYA vs. AUGUSTO
Height: 177cm < 178cm
Weight: 70kg < 72kg

Attack: 87 = 87
Defence: 43 < 49
Balance: 84 > 82
Stamina: 87 > 83
Top Speed: 91 > 88
Acceleration: 94 > 90
Response: 84 > 83
Agility: 88 > 84
Dribble Accuracy: 93 > 87
Dribble Speed: 89 = 89
Short Pass Accuracy: 83 > 80
Short Pas Speed: 78 = 78
Long Pass Accuracy: 85 > 82
Long Pass Speed: 80 > 79
Shot Accuracy: 86 > 84
Shot Power: 86 > 81
Shot Technique: 87 > 83
Free Kick Accuracy: 75 > 70
Curling: 83 > 76
Header: 80 < 88
Jump: 84 < 86
Technique: 90 > 85
Aggression: 89 = 89
Mentality/Tenacity: 80 > 79
Keeper Skills: 50 = 50
Team Work: 80 < 84

 

[Balu]

It's not halftime yet, but the game is more or less over, so I'll do it now. There's one last story to tell.

Guttmann’s reign at Honvéd was already strained and his temper was finally pushed to breaking point during a match vs. Gyor. Guttmann became so irate by the performance of defender Mihaly Patyi that during the half time team talk he ordered Patyi to remain in the locker room, meaning Honvéd would play out the second half with a self imposed player deficit. Puskás was (justifiably) outraged and persuaded his teammate to return to the pitch with the others. Guttmann did not take this defiance well, instead of returning to the dugout he marched up to the stands and spent the duration of the game quietly engrossed in a racing paper. He took the tram home that night and did not come back.

Something similar happened in this game, Ramos didn't have the best game against van Basten, so Guttmann got angry, Puskas disagreed and well, all hell broke lose. Guttmann walked out and now sits in a nice cafe reading the paper:

Puskas annoyed by being 13-3 down took over and rearranged the team for the upcoming comeback. If you don't have defenders on the pitch, they at least can't feck up, right?

​

@Annahnomoss you can update it in the op, if you're around.

I leave with a quote from Guttman:

“A coach is like a lion tamer. He dominates the animals, in whose cage he performs his show, as long as he deals with them with self-confidence and without fear. But the moment he becomes unsure of his hypnotic energy, and the first hint of fear appears in his eyes, he is lost.“

He really was a strange character, but I enjoyed this football journey along his career.

 

[Balu]

How dare you?

Joya beats José Augusto 18-6, drawing six times, including the all important Keeper Skills Category.

Unless there's a 'keep Maldini busy' category, I don't really care about the rest for this game.

 

[harms]

How dare you?

Joya beats José Augusto 18-6, drawing six times, including the all important Keeper Skills Category.

and another at height and weight

 

[antohan]

and another at height and weight

Indeed, that extra cm of José Augusto weighs a whole 2kg more Must have been hung like a donkey.

 

[Balu]

With both Czibor and Kocsis now together on the pitch, I post again those two videos about their time at Barca:

It's worth the watch in my opinon. Before this draft, I didn't know that both returned to the stadium in Bern, where they lost the World Cup final in '54, for another big game. And that they again lost 3-2, this time the European Cup final against Benfica. Czibor and Kocsis scored the two goals for Barca, but it wasn't enough.

 

[antohan]

Unless there's a 'keep Maldini busy' category, I don't really care about the rest for this game.

Ask and PES STATS will give you the answer!

JOYA'S CARDS:
P05: Trickster
P06: Speed Merchant
P07: Mazing Run
P12: Incisive Run
S02: Passer
S03: 1-on-1 Finisher

AUGUSTO'S CARDS:
P06: Speed Merchant
P12: Incisive Run
P17: Free Roaming
S01: Reaction
S06: Outside Curve

Joya takes on his man and beats him, José Augusto roams to avoid him. Definitely Joya for the 'keep Maldini busy' job.

 

[antohan]

Before this draft, I didn't know that both returned to the stadium in Bern, where they lost the World Cup final in '54, for another big game. And that they again lost 3-2, this time the European Cup final against Benfica. Czibor and Kocsis scored the two goals for Barca, but it wasn't enough.

Aye, I was aware of that. It's harsh on them obviously, but imagine how Barca fans felt about that: "that curse of theirs, it has feck all to do with us! "

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It's not halftime yet, but the game is more or less over, so I'll do it now. There's one last story to tell.



Something similar happened in this game, Ramos didn't have the best game against van Basten, so Guttmann got angry, Puskas disagreed and well, all hell broke lose. Guttmann walked out and now sits in a nice cafe reading the paper:

Puskas annoyed by being 13-3 down took over and rearranged the team for the upcoming comeback. If you don't have defenders on the pitch, they at least can't feck up, right?

​

@Annahnomoss you can update it in the op, if you're around.

I leave with a quote from Guttman:

“A coach is like a lion tamer. He dominates the animals, in whose cage he performs his show, as long as he deals with them with self-confidence and without fear. But the moment he becomes unsure of his hypnotic energy, and the first hint of fear appears in his eyes, he is lost.“

He really was a strange character, but I enjoyed this football journey along his career.

Amazing. He truly is a feisty and colourful character!

 

[antohan]

Puskas annoyed by being 13-3 down took over and rearranged the team for the upcoming comeback. If you don't have defenders on the pitch, they at least can't feck up, right?

I actually like this and would probably vote for it if it weren't the result of already being in a position where they are chasing the game. Start, shock and awe, score 1-2 and then fall back to your 4-3-3 formation.

I know, EAP suggested the complete opposite, but there's nothing as heartbreaking as seeing a side trying to claw goals back against that Milan defence, I would take the game to them before they score theirs because after that it's 100% game over no matter what you throw at them.

 

[Balu]

I actually like this and would probably vote for it if it weren't the result of already being in a position where they are chasing the game. Start, shock and awe, score 1-2 and then fall back to your 4-3-3 formation.

The starting formation was already gung-ho enough to score early in my opinion . This one is just beyond crazy.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I actually like this and would probably vote for it if it weren't the result of already being in a position where they are chasing the game. Start, shock and awe, score 1-2 and then fall back to your 4-3-3 formation.

I know, EAP suggested the complete opposite, but there's nothing as heartbreaking as seeing a side trying to claw goals back against that Milan defence, I would take the game to them before they score theirs because after that it's 100% game over no matter what you throw at them.

That's the thing. How to beat 'em? Attack like mad men and grab a goal - then fall back. And keep attacking to the extent that you keep 'em busy. Whilst sporting a more than decent defense to deal with the combinations of Gullit/Basten, supported by Nedved, with the added, unpredictable trickery of a prime Savicevic.

It ain't easy.

 

[antohan]

The starting formation was already gung-ho enough to score early in my opinion . This one is just beyond crazy.

But Kocsis is on the pitch now! Bozsik-Czibor-Puskas, all roads that lead to Kocsis scoring. We had never managed to have all four of them on the pitch together before

 

[RoadTrip]

Sorry Balu. I love the balance in EAPs team, and I generally think it is a notch above.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Actually...I would prefer going full Magyar here with the front...five. Well, provided that we buy Joya as a right winger - and, yeah, we do. So, Eusebio as the false CF and presto:

It's a 2-4-4 diamond!

 

[Balu]

Actually...I would prefer going full Magyar here with the front...five. Well, provided that we buy Joya as a right winger - and, yeah, we do. So, Eusebio as the false CF and presto:

It's a 2-4-4 diamond!

Isn't that more or less the same? Kocsis, Puskas and Eusebio will drift around as they please anyway, they can play all those central attacking positions.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Bozsik would never fit in right of a diamond.

If we are going for this kind of thing, I would suggest a reverse Brazilian...

.. Czibor .. Puskas .. Koscis .. Joya ..
......... Coluna .... Eusebio ..............
........ Goncalves ... Boszik .............
........ Matosas ... Maldini ...............
................. Grosics ......................

Lolz

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Isn't that more or less the same? Kocsis, Puskas and Eusebio will drift around as they please anyway, they can play all those central attacking positions.

Aye - sure. I just thought it looked more sexy. Plus, it highlights the false CF role - which is, after all, a characteristic of the Magyar model (and that was the one I had in mind here, more than anything).