Manchester City 19/20 season

[paulscholes18]

I'd have them favourites to win the Champions League.

Not with that defence they not,

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

I was having a chat with my flatmate about Pep and he thinks Pep would have suceeded had we given him the reigns at United so I had to point to him the absurd amounts of money they have spent on their defensive unit, how many have flopped and how guys like Danilo can be bought one minute and then sold just like that and they get Cancelo in for 60 mill. The turnover of players is insane and their defence is unacceptable. Since Pep has been there this is their investment into their defensive Unit
Stones - 47,500,000
Bravo - 15,400,000
Ederson -35,000,000
Walker - 45,000,000
Danilo - 26,500,000
Mendy - 49,300,000
Laporte - 57,000,000
the bolded were all in one season
Cancelo - 60,000,000

so that's approx £335 million invested into their defensive unit making it the most expensive in football history. Do his Chief executive not ask him questions as to why their defence isn't the very best the world has ever seen?
Does Pep not have an eye for defences or know how to set them up?

Over 200 million on defenders in the same season!!

 

[padr81]

Is that the one who called him out before the FA Cup match? Either way, City have made a lot of defensive purchases within the past 5 years, enough to fill two different starting XIs but haven't gotten the right players to work out for them.

Yes, people talk about their attacking depth, but they have some deep rooted issues that really exposed them this year. It's natural for teams for this to happen, but like any talented team, you'll have to refresh a little bit every year to maintain that competitive edge and hunger. Really interested to see who City anoints as their new center forward/striker after Aguero.

We have a massive rebuilding job on. We've lost Zabaleta, Kompany, Toure (despite the hysterics) are losing Silva (all the fighters in the squad) and we're left with no real leaders I think. Everything seems to casual, we seem too happy walking off the pitch having been pummeled by Liverpool and losing the league with 7 games to go. Aguero/Fernandinho will be next, and KDB aside (our spine is soft). Interestingly all those important personalities and leaders gone 1 thing I notice, none were signed in the Pep era..

He's bought some tidy footballers, some poor footballers and a clown. It feels like the dressing room is missing someone to call people out for being lazy, lacking fight etc.. The one word I'd use to describe us is soft. When shit gets hard we balk with this team. I get grief here for what I say about Rodri and Gundogan but I stand by it, they go hiding. They aren't the only ones but playing in midfield demands a bit of fire which we seem to sadly lack.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Bravo cost less than £16m. All things considered that was an easy risk to take. Even when we signed him £16m was nothing. Its like saying replacing Darmian with Wan Bissaka was bad business.

It really is not though, as before the Kepa bump that price for a goalkeeper was 5/6th highest in history. . .

Pep waxed lyrical about his performances early in his tenure only to double up a season later for Ederson.

Darmian hung around for years before we bought AWB, you really can’t compare those transfers at all.

Not saying replacing Bravo with Ederson is bad business either, it was a damn good move but it highlighted the chequebook mentality to perfection.

 

[padr81]

I personally blame the likes of Txiki Begiristain for failing to build a squad that can challenge Liverpool & win CLs. Just like I blame the Glazers & Woodwood over OGS for the current state of Manchester United. Because after all, there is only so much one can do with a squad assembled by others.

To be fair Stones is a good CB that needs better competition than Otamendi to reach his potential, while Cancelo has only been at City for 1 season, so its unfair to judge him just yet.

Me too, Txiki and the recruitment have overpaid for some stinkers. They've got some great deals too but whoever is chose Rodri to play DM n the PL needs a stern word.

I always had the opinion there was a good defender in Stones but now I'm convinced there is not. Otamendi is 5 times the CB he will ever be and Otamendi is not a player who should be starting at CL business end level. 2 seasons ago Otamendi was a good CB, now he's worse but still better than Stones. It also looks like Pep is freezing Stones out, he's sick of giving him chances I think. He's just too weak, he's a big lad but gets constantly throw about, pushed out of the way by players half his size.

Rumour has it Cancelo is as good as gone already with Barca sniffing around. He's in his peak and being benched for Kyle Walker who is all pace and in terms of technique one of the worst players at the club. I would like to see Cancelo come good but I think he's a right sided Mendy, will be decent going forward and have zero interest in defending.

 

[edcunited1878]

We have a massive rebuilding job on. We've lost Zabaleta, Kompany, Toure (despite the hysterics) are losing Silva (all the fighters in the squad) and we're left with no real leaders I think. Everything seems to casual, we seem too happy walking off the pitch having been pummeled by Liverpool and losing the league with 7 games to go. Aguero/Fernandinho will be next, and KDB aside (our spine is soft). Interestingly all those important personalities and leaders gone 1 thing I notice, none were signed in the Pep era..

He's bought some tidy footballers, some poor footballers and a clown. It feels like the dressing room is missing someone to call people out for being lazy, lacking fight etc.. The one word I'd use to describe us is soft. When shit gets hard we balk with this team. I get grief here for what I say about Rodri and Gundogan but I stand by it, they go hiding. They aren't the only ones but playing in midfield demands a bit of fire which we seem to sadly lack.

Agree and while City have a lot of talent, especially their attacking players, you do need characters to drag you up and hold you accountable. Rodri is in his first year, but I do understand what you're saying. I think Rodri and Gundogan started today, which I'm always a bit skeptical if they both start.

There are no real leaders at City. David Silva is very well respected and I think what he and his family went through with his child or family issue really galvanized his team and made his teammates respect him more, but then he at least had Kompany to be there, I think.

I think KDB is class and has that drive and fire, but is he enough to be the next captain? Just be interesting times for City the next year at least because of Pep and what's available to them in terms of players.

 

[padr81]

Agree and while City have a lot of talent, especially their attacking players, you do need characters to drag you up and hold you accountable. Rodri is in his first year, but I do understand what you're saying. I think Rodri and Gundogan started today, which I'm always a bit skeptical if they both start.

There are no real leaders at City. David Silva is very well respected and I think what he and his family went through with his child or family issue really galvanized his team and made his teammates respect him more, but then he at least had Kompany to be there, I think.

I think KDB is class and has that drive and fire, but is he enough to be the next captain? Just be interesting times for City the next year at least because of Pep and what's available to them in terms of players.

All that and a potential 2 year CL ban. We could be in for a tough couple of years if its upheld. I don't think we'll fall away completely but trophies could become a stretch if things go pear shaped. Then there is the prospect of the PL following up if CAS uphold Uefa's decision.

I probably sound like the world biggest whinger but we really are in an awkward spot and one made in our boardroom.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

It doesn't get questioned because he doesn't call the shots on a lot of them, in the documentary, the Mendy signing is decided by the higher ups including the Chief Executive (if I recall correctly) and Peps not even in the room. I'm not saying he has no involvement but he also doesn't call all the shots. It was clear he wanted Dani Alves ahead of Walker for example too.

Someone somewhere is spunking money and needs to be taken to task about it. Mendy, Stones, Danilo and Cancelo is 200m spunked.

He's already said openly he doesn't train tackling etc.., I think the defensive work amounts of positioning and thats about it. He's got an obsession with the ball and never not having it. Its his biggest flaw. Many believe Mourinho had the philosophy if you don't have the ball you can't make a mistake. Pep seems to have the philosophy if you never lose the ball they can't score. Problem is this season, we've been giving the ball away and don't have Fernandinho to bring people down. He needs to adapt because another poor season and his reputation takes a big hit. He's a great manager but he's not perfect and leaving City with another trouncing by Liverpool next season would hit his rep hard. We already saw with Jose, it only takes a couple of bad seasons to send a person to Spurs.

Does Guardiola still lie about not coaching you to do that?

Or is it so obvious to everyone now he's given up?

I agree with your post though and it'll be interesting to see what Guardiola does in the summer. With the European ban hanging over you I don't think you can just go out and spend hundreds of millions on fullbacks like you have been doing. He might have to do something he's never done before which is rebuild a squad without having an unlimited budget.

He looked incredibly disinterested tonight by the way, in his scruffy jeans and t shirt. Wasn't sending out great vibes of a man who's ready to stick around for the long term.

 

[Pretzels81]

Just like Barça in 2012 and Bayern in 2016, Pep is in a "No Exit" situation with a bunch of past-it players (or fed up with his tactics-personality) and a bunch of failed personal signings. I'm curious if he will be at City for 20-21 and/or where he will go next (probably PSG or Juve).

 

[padr81]

Does Guardiola still lie about not coaching you to do that?

Or is it so obvious to everyone now he's given up?

I agree with your post though and it'll be interesting to see what Guardiola does in the summer. With the European ban hanging over you I don't think you can just go out and spend hundreds of millions on fullbacks like you have been doing. He might have to do something he's never done before which is rebuild a squad without having an unlimited budget.

He looked incredibly disinterested tonight by the way, in his scruffy jeans and t shirt. Wasn't sending out great vibes of a man who's ready to stick around for the long term.

He always dresses like that when he can. He's already said he'll stick to the end of his contract even if we're in League 2 (don't rule it out just yet) and I think he will. He has this weird thing about honoring contracts. I think the league has jsut adapted to him. After a poorish first season he adapted to the league and now the league had adapted back. Its the first time in his career where once he's got to the top someones come along and caned him. Its an interesting summer ahead for him. One thing Sir Alex always did was rise to meet a challenge, with Arsenal, Chelsea and City. He never balked from one, this summer will tell a lot about Pep's character especially if the ban is upheld.

On top of this I think he's still dealing with losing his mother to Covid a few weeks ago. I'd imagine he's not in the best head space right now.

 

[edcunited1878]

All that and a potential 2 year CL ban. We could be in for a tough couple of years if its upheld. I don't think we'll fall away completely but trophies could become a stretch if things go pear shaped. Then there is the prospect of the PL following up if CAS uphold Uefa's decision.

I probably sound like the world biggest whinger but we really are in an awkward spot and one made in our boardroom.

Credit to you though, you're seeing what reality and potential reality is. Having good teams and talented teams is what makes the Premier League arguably the most competitive league in the world. Not sure what is happening to Leeds atm, but it would be insane if United, City, Liverpool, and Leeds were in the top division again.

 

[Red Keane]

We have a massive rebuilding job on. We've lost Zabaleta, Kompany, Toure (despite the hysterics) are losing Silva (all the fighters in the squad) and we're left with no real leaders I think. Everything seems to casual, we seem too happy walking off the pitch having been pummeled by Liverpool and losing the league with 7 games to go. Aguero/Fernandinho will be next, and KDB aside (our spine is soft). Interestingly all those important personalities and leaders gone 1 thing I notice, none were signed in the Pep era..

Would getting someone like Koulibaly help address those issues? Because from my perspective he is one of the few players of modern era to show the sort of leadership any decent Captain needs to have.

Me too, Txiki and the recruitment have overpaid for some stinkers.

Mangala represents the best example this stupidity

They've got some great deals too but whoever is chose Rodri to play DM n the PL needs a stern word.

You don't think Rodri would adapt as a Premier League DM going forward? Because if he didn't have any defensive ability, one wonders why Simeone signed him in the first place for Atlético.

I always had the opinion there was a good defender in Stones but now I'm convinced there is not. Otamendi is 5 times the CB he will ever be and Otamendi is not a player who should be starting at CL business end level. 2 seasons ago Otamendi was a good CB, now he's worse but still better than Stones. It also looks like Pep is freezing Stones out, he's sick of giving him chances I think. He's just too weak, he's a big lad but gets constantly throw about, pushed out of the way by players half his size.

I would struggle to disagree with that statement; my main hope for Stones was mainly to do with the fact he is still young enough to develop into a better CB, but if Pep has really given up on him then its looks like that train has passed. Glad we agree on Otamendi though!

Rumour has it Cancelo is as good as gone already with Barca sniffing around.

I don't think it would be wise for him to move to Barcelona at the moment. Especially when their financial siutation is said to be pretty dire at the moment (rumour has it that they are looking to sell everyone other than ter Stegen & Messi).

He's in his peak and being benched for Kyle Walker who is all pace and in terms of technique one of the worst players at the club. I would like to see Cancelo come good but I think he's a right sided Mendy, will be decent going forward and have zero interest in defending.

Is there any possiblity that the main reason why Pep is starting Walker over Cancelo is help the latter adapt to the PL? Because I recall Bernardo Silva starting on the bench for the vast majority of his First Season, before coming good in the Second.

I think KDB is class and has that drive and fire, but is he enough to be the next captain? Just be interesting times for City the next year at least because of Pep and what's available to them in terms of players.

KDB might be the best Midfielder in World Football, but he is definately not Captain material, as shown by the "I want to talk" incident a few years back.

All that and a potential 2 year CL ban. We could be in for a tough couple of years if its upheld. I don't think we'll fall away completely but trophies could become a stretch if things go pear shaped. Then there is the prospect of the PL following up if CAS uphold Uefa's decision.

Even if City lose the CAS arguement, there is nothing stopping them taking UEFA to Court over their Monopoly on European Club Football (and their abuse of it via FFP) as a potential "nuclear" option.

 

[Jeppers7]

What I find weird about City is despite having the best squad of players assembled in this country over a ten year period, they haven’t been in any way dominant. In the eight seasons since they first won the league they’ve let a United team with Smalling Jones Valencia Young Cleverley and Anderson win the league, Chelsea have won it twice on rebuilds, Leicester fecking City and now Liverpool have absolutely walked it and I’d contend I’d take city’s squad over any of the others that won the leagues. For them to go a full three seasons without winning the league with the squad they had is pathetic. To be brushed aside by Liverpool’s squad so meekly is dire. We’ve not been in anyway decent since SAF retired, I think every United fan would accept that....but City, with the squad assembled and added to, outspending everyone year on year to the tune of half a billion, it’s embarrassing how little they have to show for it. Fair weather team if ever I saw one and you have to wonder why.

 

[edcunited1878]

What I find weird about City is despite having the best squad of players assembled in this country over a ten year period, they haven’t been in any way dominant. In the eight seasons since they first won the league they’ve let a United team with Smalling Jones Valencia Young Cleverley and Anderson win the league, Chelsea have won it twice on rebuilds, Leicester fecking City and now Liverpool have absolutely walked it and I’d contend I’d take city’s squad over any of the others that won the leagues. For them to go a full three seasons without winning the league with the squad they had is pathetic. To be brushed aside by Liverpool’s squad so meekly is dire. We’ve not been in anyway decent since SAF retired, I think every United fan would accept that....but City, with the squad assembled and added to, outspending everyone year on year to the tune of half a billion, it’s embarrassing how little they have to show for it. Fair weather team if ever I saw one and you have to wonder why.

City and Liverpool went completely toe-to-toe last year. That was a huge title defense. Arguably the most competitive against two of the highest points totals in league history.

Liverpool have been on a very strong two year run, where they only lost once last year, but drew 7 times. They, to their credit, sustained if not surpassed last year's results and just kept going into this season.

City had 100 points in 17/18, 98 in 18/19. That's ridiculous title winning points. They did fall off the pace this year because they didn't spend well on defenders and don't have a capable center forward outside of Aguero. Maybe people are finally realizing the scale of which United really have to improve. United, for a start, have to generate at least 75+ goals for in the league to challenge...but probably 85+ to win it

 

[Red Keane]

Playing Devil's advocate...

What I find weird about City is despite having the best squad of players assembled in this country over a ten year period, they haven’t been in any way dominant.

Well between 2011 and 2019, City have ended up winning 4 of the 8 Titles up for grabs, with Chelsea winning 2 of them, Leciester 1 and ourselves 1. From my perspective at least, the main reason why they haven't won every single League (Unlike PSG, Juventus & Bayern for example) is due to 2 reasons:

• The fact the likes of Chelsea have more than enough money to build competitive teams to City, at least untl Pep arrived. Something that is not the case in Germany, France & Italy.
• The fact that City have an bizzare refusal to properly build upon their current squad after winning a title; for example by getting the likes of Rodwell, Scott Sinclair & Nastasic in 2012 and Mangala, Bony & Fernando in 2014. Not exactly players that will take you to the next level. Heck even in 2018 they only got Mahrez despite addtional areas needing addressing.

In the eight seasons since they first won the league they’ve let a United team with Smalling Jones Valencia Young Cleverley and Anderson win the league

To be fair, we had Van Persie & Hernandez up front & Fergie in the dugout. That and the fact City messed up big time on transfers was the reason why we won the League that season.

Chelsea have won it twice on rebuilds

Helped by the fact City again messed up on the post-title transfer window in 2014-2015 and the fact City where busy rebuilding their side under Pep in 2016-2017.

Leicester fecking City

The core of the Mancini/Pellegrini side was beginning to decline during this time. Although to be fair, every one of the big sides (Tottenham, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool & ourselves) where botting it big time that season.

now Liverpool have absolutely walked it

A consequence of only getting a RW, DM, LB & RB since 2018. While still having gaps in GK, LB, CB, CM & ST and seeing Liverpool all but transform their side during that time.

and I’d contend I’d take city’s squad over any of the others that won the leagues.

Chelsea's 2014-2015 & 2016-2017 Teams where better than their Man City counterparts during those seasons.

but City, with the squad assembled and added to, outspending everyone year on year to the tune of half a billion

This was not the case in 2012 (Net Spend £15 Million), 2014 (Net Spend - £65 Million), 2018 (Net Spending - £20 Million) & 2019 (Net Spend - £89 Million) (1). Not surprisingly, they failed to win the league in 3 of those 4 seasons.

(1) £89 Million Net Spend might be high by historic standards, but when even "Good" players cost £80 Million these days, its not particularly high these days.

Fair weather team if ever I saw one and you have to wonder why.

While its a fair claim to make when one looks at tonight's performance, one must not forget that this is more or less the same City side last season (Kompany excepted) that almost blew the League in January, yet they ended up ursurping Liverpool's attempts to win the title...

Regardless the moral of the story is from all this is that if you don't properly build up your team after winning a title, you end up crashing down. A lesson that Liverpool are clearly aiming to ignore.

 

[Red Keane]

City and Liverpool went completely toe-to-toe last year. That was a huge title defense. Arguably the most competitive against two of the highest points totals in league history.

Funny enough what City did in 2018-2019 was the sort of title combacks we used to see under Fergie.

City had 100 points in 17/18, 98 in 18/19. That's ridiculous title winning points. They did fall off the pace this year because they didn't spend well on defenders and don't have a capable center forward outside of Aguero. Maybe people are finally realizing the scale of which United really have to improve. United, for a start, have to generate at least 75+ goals for in the league to challenge...but probably 85+ to win it

I realised the task ahead for United as early as the 2016-2017, when Conte's chelsea won the League with 90+ Points (a rare feat at that point). I knew then that the only way United can secure League Titles again was by having squads that could amass 90+ points. The following 3 seasons have proven me right.

 

[AR87]

We have a massive rebuilding job on. We've lost Zabaleta, Kompany, Toure (despite the hysterics) are losing Silva (all the fighters in the squad) and we're left with no real leaders I think. Everything seems to casual, we seem too happy walking off the pitch having been pummeled by Liverpool and losing the league with 7 games to go. Aguero/Fernandinho will be next, and KDB aside (our spine is soft). Interestingly all those important personalities and leaders gone 1 thing I notice, none were signed in the Pep era..

He's bought some tidy footballers, some poor footballers and a clown. It feels like the dressing room is missing someone to call people out for being lazy, lacking fight etc.. The one word I'd use to describe us is soft. When shit gets hard we balk with this team. I get grief here for what I say about Rodri and Gundogan but I stand by it, they go hiding. They aren't the only ones but playing in midfield demands a bit of fire which we seem to sadly lack.

Agree with this completely. Aside from the leadership I would say that Aguero, David Silva, and Kompany are among the greatest players in the PL in their generation. You can buy good players and still not replace them adequately.

 

[edcunited1878]

I realised the task ahead for United as early as the 2016-2017, when Conte's chelsea won the League with 90+ Points (a rare feat at that point). I knew then that the only way United can secure League Titles again was by having squads that could amass 90+ points. The following 3 seasons have proven me right.

I really thought United could build from Mourinho's second place finish if they reinforced the team further because they needed to score so many more goals and couldn't grind out results or play for results and excuse the performance. It was such as workman like and functional type season where results came at the expense of scoring goals and having proper talented players. Even then, 4 teams scored more goals than United's 68 some goals but finished 2nd.

But then obviously everything went to shit really fast.

Biggest thing for me is that United haven't scored enough goals in the league for quite some time, since they won the league in 12/13 and challenged the years before that. Around that time, they were give or take 79 goals for at minimum. United has usually ranged in the 40s to 60s goals for since that last title winning season.

 

[DoneDaDa]

I was having a chat with my flatmate about Pep and he thinks Pep would have suceeded had we given him the reigns at United so I had to point to him the absurd amounts of money they have spent on their defensive unit, how many have flopped and how guys like Danilo can be bought one minute and then sold just like that and they get Cancelo in for 60 mill. The turnover of players is insane and their defence is unacceptable. Since Pep has been there this is their investment into their defensive Unit
Stones - 47,500,000
Bravo - 15,400,000
Ederson -35,000,000
Walker - 45,000,000
Danilo - 26,500,000
Mendy - 49,300,000
Laporte - 57,000,000
the bolded were all in one season
Cancelo - 60,000,000

so that's approx £335 million invested into their defensive unit making it the most expensive in football history. Do his Chief executive not ask him questions as to why their defence isn't the very best the world has ever seen?
Does Pep not have an eye for defences or know how to set them up?

I've always felt context is very necessary when discussing this aspect of football, now this is not just in regards to City or Pep but it is something I generally hear about a lot all over the net and in real life. Now taking this into consideration I'll give my opinion and thoughts here, in regards to this:

A few years back RM spent something like 250-300M on these youngsters in the Barca forum, reddit and I'm sure even here many people praised them and spoke about how they were setting up for the future and dominance etc, even I thought that, I read on twitter a few months back today not a single one of those players are there. Barca have spent 600M on midfielder since Xavi and only Rakitic has been a success and he cost the least, that's as much as Pep has spent on his entire squad but he basically created a starting XI with that money Chelsea have gone through strikers and there coming up to almost a decade and have yet to find a Drogba like player, I'm sure people get the jist here.

When replacing a squad or even one player it's difficult, City and Pep having to replace all 5 players in the back line was always going to be a difficult task, people expect every player they would've bought should've been some proven, world class player which in some instance is possible, but not something that's common to happen always.

Bravo: He was never there first choice reports in Spain indicated City came for ter Stegen, as he was only a cup GK for Barcelona at the time, there was a despite between the two keepers as ter Stegen wanted #1, Bravo was Enrique purchase, ter Stegen was the board, eventually they kept ter Stegen and Pep already made it clear Hart was not City #1, so Bravo purchase was a stop gap unless he had an insane season there is no doubt in my mind City were already looking for other GK, Bravo form only made them find one quicker.

Stones: He was 22 years old, English City need to keep the homegrown quota and he fit Pep style of play, however his lack of improvement is down to him, plays under a top team, given plenty of chance/time has played with an experience CB like Kompany, but never truly progressed.

Danilo: He was never there choice, City had Alves locked down and had verbal consent from him to sign as he was a free agent, but like in business this was a rookie mistake as PSG ended up coming in and swooping him up, I guess City though his connection with Pep and Txiki was enough, but he took a U-turn and Txiki panicked purchased Danilo, hence his short stay.

Mendy: Like any other club and manager not much they could've done due injuries, he showed a lot of potential and seemed like a good fit. If City purchase him with an injury record then they'd be at fault, but they didn't.

Cancelo: Jury is still out imo can't give a verdict yet.

Ederson, Walker and Laporte: Have been big hits imo some of the much better deals City have done.

 

[Red Keane]

I really thought United could build from Mourinho's second place finish if they reinforced the team further because they needed to score so many more goals and couldn't grind out results or play for results and excuse the performance. It was such as workman like and functional type season where results came at the expense of scoring goals and having proper talented players. Even then, 4 teams scored more goals than United's 68 some goals but finished 2nd.

But then obviously everything went to shit really fast.

Biggest thing for me is that United haven't scored enough goals in the league for quite some time, since they won the league in 12/13 and challenged the years before that. Around that time, they were give or take 79 goals for at minimum. United has usually ranged in the 40s to 60s goals for since that last title winning season.

One must not forget that while United finished 2nd, it was a rather distant 2nd place compared to Manchester City. Thus the only way we could bridge the gap between ourselves & City would be spending the sort of sums that the Glazers would never willingly allow.

Take the issue with the Lack of Goals at United; to solve that problem (in relation to the Midfield & Attack) would have required the signings of Kane, Erriksen, SMS & Mahrez, players that would have cost (in total) more than double the overall amount United spent on transfers in 2017-2018 (Perhaps even as much as Mourinho spent on his first 2 seasons as a whole). Thus one can understand why Mourinho was unhappy about the overall transfer spending at the club and in turn why the Glazers are the biggest barrier to United getting back to its best.

 

[edcunited1878]

One must not forget that while United finished 2nd, it was a rather distant 2nd place compared to Manchester City. Thus the only way we could bridge the gap between ourselves & City would be spending the sort of sums that the Glazers would never willingly allow.

Take the issue with the Lack of Goals at United; to solve that problem (in relation to the Midfield & Attack) would have required the signings of Kane, Erriksen, SMS & Mahrez, players that would have cost (in total) more than double the overall amount United spent on transfers in 2017-2018 (Perhaps even as much as Mourinho spent on his first 2 seasons as a whole). Thus one can understand why Mourinho was unhappy about the overall transfer spending at the club and in turn why the Glazers are the biggest barrier to United getting back to its best.

But United have spent poorly since LVG, aside from Blind and Martial. Year Moyes, LVG, and Jose's Alexis bomb and lack of real first team quality signings before his last year has really set the team back a few more years.

Still cannot believe Mata and Felliani were signed in year Moyes and that's it. Even if your outlay of quality players that you suggested was needed and I agree, regardless of money spent, there was a real lack of identification and player quality identity lacking. Sign players that have the technical ability and skill that's requisite to challenge for the league and that can play regardless of manager, of which those are the players you mentioned. That's your core players who will span across two contracts equaling 6 or so years.

 

[Red Keane]

I was having a chat with my flatmate about Pep and he thinks Pep would have suceeded had we given him the reigns at United so I had to point to him the absurd amounts of money they have spent on their defensive unit, how many have flopped and how guys like Danilo can be bought one minute and then sold just like that and they get Cancelo in for 60 mill. The turnover of players is insane and their defence is unacceptable. Since Pep has been there this is their investment into their defensive Unit
Stones - 47,500,000
Bravo - 15,400,000
Ederson -35,000,000
Walker - 45,000,000
Danilo - 26,500,000
Mendy - 49,300,000
Laporte - 57,000,000
the bolded were all in one season
Cancelo - 60,000,000

so that's approx £335 million invested into their defensive unit making it the most expensive in football history. Do his Chief executive not ask him questions as to why their defence isn't the very best the world has ever seen?
Does Pep not have an eye for defences or know how to set them up?

To be fair to Danilo, he didn't do too badly at City and was actually sold for a small profit as well.

Regardless when Pep arrived at City; Joe Hart, the Centre Backs & the Full Backs they had were either on the decline or were not good enough to play for City, hence why Alexis Sanchez was able to single handly knock City out of a FA Cup Semi-Final back in 2017. So whoever took the job at the Eithad would have been forced to replace the entire defensive line and thus pay the then market rates for "good" Goalkeepers, Centre Backs & Full Backs as said replacements.

Thats why it cost so much overall and lets be real it worked pretty well when it came to winning Domestic Trophies (The only reason why they failed to win CL's with that backline was because they didn't spent more replacing Kompany & Otamendi, as well as get a proper LB that was actually able to play). Likewise the only reason why it stands out was because of the other Top 6 clubs refusal to do the same and thus ended up falling behind Man City on the Domestic Front (1).

The only one that decided to adopt City's approach was funny enough Liverpool, who of course spent £150 Million on Allison & VVD. The only reason why they spent much less because they sucessfully gambled on Robertson, they had TAA in the Academy, they had Gomez in the reserves and of course had Klopp thinking that Matip and Lovern where good enough to play for Liverpool. Had this not been the case, they would have spent another £200+ Million on getting more Centre Backs & Full Backs.

So the moral of the story is; if you want your club to do well, invest greatly in your defence.

(1) Had we spent £350 Million on our Back 4, we would not be fighting for Top 4 every season.

Bravo: He was never there first choice reports in Spain indicated City came for ter Stegen, as he was only a cup GK for Barcelona at the time, there was a despite between the two keepers as ter Stegen wanted #1, Bravo was Enrique purchase, ter Stegen was the board, eventually they kept ter Stegen and Pep already made it clear Hart was not City #1, so Bravo purchase was a stop gap unless he had an insane season there is no doubt in my mind City were already looking for other GK, Bravo form only made them find one quicker.

Didn't know that City originally wanted to sign ter Stegen over Bravo, do you know why City abandoned the approach for ter Stegen in favour of Bravo? Because they made a clear mistake in abandoning said approach.

 

[DoneDaDa]

Didn't know that City originally wanted to sign ter Stegen over Bravo, do you know why City abandoned the approach for ter Stegen in favour of Bravo? Because they made a clear mistake in abandoning said approach.

Bascially the summer of 2016, ter Stegen got tired of being second fiddle he was only playing CdR and CL football, while Bravo played league games, but Bravo also wanted to play more of a role in the CL, which led Barcelona to making a big decision ter Stegen preferred to stay at Barca but only if he was a starter, at the end Barca made the decision to make ter Stegen the starting GK this is why Bravo joined City late in the 2016 season. City would've only got him if Barcelona didn't make him #1 which they were hoping for, as Bravo was Enrique preference who was the manager.

 

[Red Keane]

But United have spent poorly since LVG, aside from Blind and Martial. Year Moyes, LVG, and Jose's Alexis bomb and lack of real first team quality signings before his last year has really set the team back a few more years.

One thing I will say about OGS is that he has been rather more sucessfull in signing the right players than any of his Post-Fergie Predecessors, the only trouble is how many he is allowed to sign. Regardless I would agree that United's failure to do this in the immediate Post-Fergie era was the clubs biggest mistake of late.

Still cannot believe Mata and Felliani were signed in year Moyes and that's it.

And that was only the tip of the iceberg of how bad it got.

Even if your outlay of quality players that you suggested was needed and I agree, regardless of money spent, there was a real lack of identification and player quality identity lacking.

One might argue that this very issue ended up dooming both the Mourinho & LVG eras more than any other factor. We all know who is ultimately responsible for this.

Sign players that have the technical ability and skill that's requisite to challenge for the league and that can play regardless of manager, of which those are the players you mentioned. That's your core players who will span across two contracts equaling 6 or so years.

I'm glad we are both in agreement with this point.

 

[edcunited1878]

One thing I will say about OGS is that he has been rather more sucessfull in signing the right players than any of his Post-Fergie Predecessors, the only trouble is how many he is allowed to sign. Regardless I would agree that United's failure to do this in the immediate Post-Fergie era was the clubs biggest mistake of late.



And that was only the tip of the iceberg of how bad it got.



One might argue that this very issue ended up dooming both the Mourinho & LVG eras more than any other factor. We all know who is ultimately responsible for this.



I'm glad we are both in agreement with this point.

To the last point and agreement, that's really where City and Chelsea, for the most part, have done consistently well post SAF. Liverpool a bit recently, but even then, the team adjusted effectively around their central midfield strengths and their fullback strengths, but in the majority of positions, they all have good to very good technical ability to perform. Henderson might be their least technically gifted player but he makes up for it very well and is an important piece of the team.

 

[Adisa]

Remarkable how their defence needs the most work after the money spent on it.
We are talking about €200m plus in the last four years.

 

[Leg-End]

Is there a single summer in which City don't need to spend money on their defence? It's an absolute money pit, they are either never satisfied and upset the balance or need to buy and don't actually get what they need.

 

[Lee565]

To think there are united fans fearing a scenario of liverpool as league champions and man city winning the champions league, that ain't going to happen, if man city cant cope with Chelsea attack then they won't be able to handle Madrid's.

 

[SambaBoy]

Wonder what direction they will get in this summer. There are a few positions where they could potentially strengthen but might just rely on what they have. The striker position, Aguero is 32 now, showing no signs of slowing down but he's always an injury risk and could break down or decline. Jesus is their back-up and posts good stats but whether they will rely on him to take over Aguero is a question mark.

Sane is leaving so they could potentially replace him.

I'd imagine they will definitely sign a LB/CB and potentially a DM so probably looking at over £150m spend. North of £200m if they sign wingers and ST.

 

[Bastian]

Wonder what direction they will get in this summer. There are a few positions where they could potentially strengthen but might just rely on what they have. The striker position, Aguero is 32 now, showing no signs of slowing down but he's always an injury risk and could break down or decline. Jesus is their back-up and posts good stats but whether they will rely on him to take over Aguero is a question mark.

Sane is leaving so they could potentially replace him.

I'd imagine they will definitely sign a LB/CB and potentially a DM so probably looking at over £150m spend. North of £200m if they sign wingers and ST.

I forget what they can spend extra due to the relaxing of the FFP, but it's a golden opportunity for PSG, City and Chelsea to throw money around. They will probably have to address their striker position. They most definitely need a centre back or two. Then it's a question of whether or not the ban holds, and if it's for two years or shortened to one. If they avoid the ban, or have it cut to one year, I think this will be their busiest summer in the market.

Will probably try to shift Otamendi and Stones, Silva is off, and Sane possibly too, though it's hard to imagine they'll allow Bayern to dictate terms. They need a significant revamp if they're going to go back to previous performance levels.

 

[Red Keane]

To the last point and agreement, that's really where City and Chelsea, for the most part, have done consistently well post SAF.

To be fair to Chelsea; they did go against that policy somewhat between Mourinho's 2nd Season & the Sarri era (Kante, Rudigier, Jorginho, Pulisic & Kovacic excluded), but with the signings of Ziyech, Werner and others to come, they have clearly returned to that proven strategy.

Liverpool a bit recently, but even then, the team adjusted effectively around their central midfield strengths and their fullback strengths, but in the majority of positions, they all have good to very good technical ability to perform. Henderson might be their least technically gifted player but he makes up for it very well and is an important piece of the team.

Agreed on that!

Remarkable how their defence needs the most work after the money spent on it.
We are talking about €200m plus in the last four years.

Is there a single summer in which City don't need to spend money on their defence? It's an absolute money pit, they are either never satisfied and upset the balance or need to buy and don't actually get what they need.

As I explained in post #1022, that money was used to completely rebuild that defence from scratch to enable City to win Premier League titles; for said defence to win European Doubles (Premier League & Champions League), you are going to need to invest more money towards it since you need to have 4 Quality CB's & 4 Quality FB's to achieve that goal. Something that Manchester City will not have unless they properly replace Kompany & Otamendi and get another LB.

To think there are united fans fearing a scenario of liverpool as league champions and man city winning the champions league, that ain't going to happen, if man city cant cope with Chelsea attack then they won't be able to handle Madrid's.

Except that Manchester City (despite playing poorly) have actually beaten Real Madrid at the Bernabéu this season; despite the fact that City started Otamendi that match while Real Madrid played a full strength side (yes Hazard & Asensio where injured, but they Vinícius & Rodrigo to cover for them). So while I wouldn't rule out Real making a comeback, bear in mind that City have a 2 Away Goal advantage & Real cannot use Ramos in the 2nd leg.

Wonder what direction they will get in this summer. There are a few positions where they could potentially strengthen but might just rely on what they have. The striker position, Aguero is 32 now, showing no signs of slowing down but he's always an injury risk and could break down or decline. Jesus is their back-up and posts good stats but whether they will rely on him to take over Aguero is a question mark.

Sane is leaving so they could potentially replace him.

I'd imagine they will definitely sign a LB/CB and potentially a DM so probably looking at over £150m spend. North of £200m if they sign wingers and ST.

Manchester City actually need 7-8 players to address the issues in their squad, which are a LB to provide competition for Mendy, 2 CB's to replace Kompany & Otamendi, a DM to replace Fernandinho, a CM replace D.Silva, a Winger to enable B.Silva to become a full-time CM & a Striker to eventually replace Aguero. Likewise if Sane is foolish enough to leave, they will need another winger to replace him as well.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Can’t believe he’s 29 already

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[padr81]

Would getting someone like Koulibaly help address those issues? Because from my perspective he is one of the few players of modern era to show the sort of leadership any decent Captain needs to have.

Koulibaly would be a top signing but personally I believe our defensive issues come more from midfield than our CB's. He would be a big improvement for sure but until we get some pace in defensive midfield I don't think we'll challenge.

Mangala represents the best example this stupidity
You don't think Rodri would adapt as a Premier League DM going forward? Because if he didn't have any defensive ability, one wonders why Simeone signed him in the first place for Atlético.

Absolutely Mangala is probably the worst signing in PL history. Funny thing is before his confidence got destroyed and in a team that didn't require ball playing CB's, I think he'd have turned out much better. Terrible move for both parties. Porto were the only winners.

I would struggle to disagree with that statement; my main hope for Stones was mainly to do with the fact he is still young enough to develop into a better CB, but if Pep has really given up on him then its looks like that train has passed. Glad we agree on Otamendi though!

Yeah, I thought for ages Stones was going to be our Rio, young English good on the ball. But he hasn't developed at all defensively despite being in the same dressing room as Kompany. I wouldn't be surprised to see him off in the summer, I have no clue where he'll end up though.

I don't think it would be wise for him to move to Barcelona at the moment. Especially when their financial siutation is said to be pretty dire at the moment (rumour has it that they are looking to sell everyone other than ter Stegen & Messi).

Is there any possiblity that the main reason why Pep is starting Walker over Cancelo is help the latter adapt to the PL? Because I recall Bernardo Silva starting on the bench for the vast majority of his First Season, before coming good in the Second.

The rumor was a swap for Semedo so we'd probably end up giving Barca Cancelo and money. I'd like to see Cancelo given another season just to see.

KDB might be the best Midfielder in World Football, but he is definately not Captain material, as shown by the "I want to talk" incident a few years back.

Yeah he's more of a lead by example. I don't think we have anyone whose captain material off the pitch. They all seem too easy going etc..

Even if City lose the CAS arguement, there is nothing stopping them taking UEFA to Court over their Monopoly on European Club Football (and their abuse of it via FFP) as a potential "nuclear" option.

The problem with this is when this happened the first time we cut a (shady?) deal with UEFA instead of taking them on and trying to abolish FFP in 2014. That is when we should have taken this on. We gladly cut that deal instead of sticking up for ourselves and other clubs who could benefit like we did from huge investment, we decided to step on them to keep them down just like the g14. We should have showed spine back then but we cut the deal and for better or worse became part of the clubs trying to prevent others from climbing up. To go and try and abolish FFP now would be hypocritical. We signed up to be part of FFP the day we struck that deal. Now we're kind of reaping what we've sewn.

That said if we lose in CAS I wouldn't bet against us going to Europe over this and eventually taking on the rules themselves. The problem I would have with this, is it will look like we're taking on the rules out of spite because we were punished instead of doing it for the right reasons (FFP being a ball of shite).

 

[Pep's Suit]

We have a massive rebuilding job on. We've lost Zabaleta, Kompany, Toure (despite the hysterics) are losing Silva (all the fighters in the squad) and we're left with no real leaders I think. Everything seems to casual, we seem too happy walking off the pitch having been pummeled by Liverpool and losing the league with 7 games to go. Aguero/Fernandinho will be next, and KDB aside (our spine is soft). Interestingly all those important personalities and leaders gone 1 thing I notice, none were signed in the Pep era..

He's bought some tidy footballers, some poor footballers and a clown. It feels like the dressing room is missing someone to call people out for being lazy, lacking fight etc.. The one word I'd use to describe us is soft. When shit gets hard we balk with this team. I get grief here for what I say about Rodri and Gundogan but I stand by it, they go hiding. They aren't the only ones but playing in midfield demands a bit of fire which we seem to sadly lack.

Pep already said only 1, maybe 2 players this summer.

The rumor was a swap for Semedo so we'd probably end up giving Barca Cancelo and money. I'd like to see Cancelo given another season just to see.

Honestly I think that was just Barca or Mendes trying to move Semedo. However, Cancelo's probably gone anyway. Not sure where, maybe one of clubs' close to Mendes (Wolves, Valencia, Monaco).

 

[Mark_Barca]

Regarding UCL, City wont have a better chance. Bayern only side looking decent at the moment.

 

[Stocar]

Regarding UCL, City wont have a better chance. Bayern only side looking decent at the moment.

They're the best team left in the competition, have been top favourites to win it in last years (even this season, while Liverpool was still in), but overthinking and obsession with controlling the game might be their downfall yet again.

 

[Mark_Barca]

They're the best team left in the competition, have been top favourites to win it in last years (even this season, while Liverpool was still in), but overthinking and obsession with controlling the game might be their downfall yet again.

Lack of away tie could be benefical. Guardiolas record in that department is woeful.

 

[TheReligion]

@padr81

I'm interested what your thoughts are on City moving forward. To me you're in need of a bit of a rebuild which makes it particularly bad timing with regards to the European ban.

Aguero is 32 and will be leaving very soon, Silva is going, Kompany yet to be replaced, Fernandinho still relied upon at 35. Even Mahrez is 29.

I appreciate you have Foden to come in for Silva but he's a young player and it's an awful lot for him to take on. It feels like you've failed to really integrate your younger players into your first team whilst it was peaking and now you're in a position when you need to go and spend a fortune yet again in a number of different key areas. Sane going is undoubtedly a blow as he was clearly brought in as a long term prospect so the question is how do you see the club moving through this period under Pep and with the likelihood of having to purchase players under the shadow of a CL ban?

 

[padr81]

@padr81

I'm interested what your thoughts are on City moving forward. To me you're in need of a bit of a rebuild which makes it particularly bad timing with regards to the European ban.

Aguero is 32 and will be leaving very soon, Silva is going, Kompany yet to be replaced, Fernandinho still relied upon at 35. Even Mahrez is 29.

I appreciate you have Foden to come in for Silva but he's a young player and it's an awful lot for him to take on. It feels like you've failed to really integrate your younger players into your first team whilst it was peaking and now you're in a position when you need to go and spend a fortune yet again in a number of different key areas. Sane going is undoubtedly a blow as he was clearly brought in as a long term prospect so the question is how do you see the club moving through this period under Pep and with the likelihood of having to purchase players under the shadow of a CL ban?

I think our next 3-4 years rests on CAS to be honest. Best case scenario, I don't think the rebuild is 7 or 8 players as many are stating but we need a CB, LB and CDM for certain. With FFP being suspended this summer, we could go and get them. Sane is a big loss as when he goes we have to play with inverted wingers. For me our best attacks was Sterling, Aguero, Sane. My big problem with us is pace in midfield and Pep's Rodri and Gundo obsession, I dislike both but think either one is ok when surrounded by pacy midfielders (even Foden is quick enough).

I'd be very happy with moving on Silva (leaving anyway) Mendy, Stones and bring in the 3 positions I feel we need cover for. Otamendi, Zinchenko and Fernandinho are competent bench options but nothing more these days. I think we'll get another season from Kun/Jesus and that won't be a problem for another 12 months..

Given prices these days I think we're looking at £150m plus on 3 first teamers, and a replacement for Sane would be a big help. If we could get Coman and €20m or so for Sane I'd be delighted.

I genuinely have no clue how to fix the Fernandinho problem in midfield though, the Kantes, Fabinho's etc.. are already at big clubs.and Pep seems to want to make Rodri into Busquets.

If we lose the CAS case I genuniely think we won't challenge for 3-4 years. Quite likely Sterling, KDB will jump ship for sure. Maybe Mahrez and Laporte too and we'll be top 4 chasing till the ban is over and we can build again.

 

[Pep's Suit]

Well, selling Sterling for big money wouldn't be so bad. KDB would be a huge problem even if Bernardo did well when played centrally but De Bruyne is 29 now so no one could blame him.