Ed name-checked Marcus Rashford, David De Gea, Victor Lindeloff as well as Anthony Martial and Shaw earlier in the season.
Manchester United Financial thread
- Thread starter RedMachine03
- Start date
Richard Arnold:
Aug 16, a Cantor (spelling?) fan survey indicated we increased our fan and follower base by 400 million to 1.1Billion; growth in all regions, with 125% increase in Asia. Survey showed that we maintained our position as the most followed club in the world.
Achieved selling out of season tickets in record time
Earliest selling out ever of premium priced executive club tickets, waiting list demand remains strong in all areas
Rolled out multiple capital project at Old Trafford incl. VAR capabilities, security upgrades, improvements for disabled fans
Official membership ~ 255,000 members
Engaging with fans - global app performing above expectations; launch of shop button in current navigation; MUTV record subscriptions
Scale of fanbase in China, merits particular mention. Chinese language app, Chinese programming
Transfer speculation drives a very high level of engagement with the club's social media communities
Scale of fan base and phenomenal engagement we're experiencing translated into strong year into commercial relationships
Achieved extensions with Apollo Tyres, Concha Y Toro, Gulf, Tag Heuer in addition to new partnerships with Chivas, Maui Jim, Harves, True Religion. 10 partnerships in total. Appealing brand. Delivering measurable ROI for our partners.
Merchandise partnership with Adidas performing in line with expectations, growth in Asia Pacific (China). Direct-to-consumer stronger this year than last year (world Cup delayed launch of the kits last year). Licensing business performing well. We opened a preview and marketing center in Beijing, adjacent to Tiananmen Square.
I couldn't stop laughing at this bullshit...
Aug 16, a Cantor (spelling?) fan survey indicated we increased our fan and follower base by 400 million to 1.1Billion; growth in all regions, with 125% increase in Asia. Survey showed that we maintained our position as the most followed club in the world.
Achieved selling out of season tickets in record time
Earliest selling out ever of premium priced executive club tickets, waiting list demand remains strong in all areas
Rolled out multiple capital project at Old Trafford incl. VAR capabilities, security upgrades, improvements for disabled fans
Official membership ~ 255,000 members
Engaging with fans - global app performing above expectations; launch of shop button in current navigation; MUTV record subscriptions
Scale of fanbase in China, merits particular mention. Chinese language app, Chinese programming
Transfer speculation drives a very high level of engagement with the club's social media communities
Scale of fan base and phenomenal engagement we're experiencing translated into strong year into commercial relationships
Achieved extensions with Apollo Tyres, Concha Y Toro, Gulf, Tag Heuer in addition to new partnerships with Chivas, Maui Jim, Harves, True Religion. 10 partnerships in total. Appealing brand. Delivering measurable ROI for our partners.
Merchandise partnership with Adidas performing in line with expectations, growth in Asia Pacific (China). Direct-to-consumer stronger this year than last year (world Cup delayed launch of the kits last year). Licensing business performing well. We opened a preview and marketing center in Beijing, adjacent to Tiananmen Square.
I couldn't stop laughing at this bullshit...
The Glazers will be getting very concerned, next years revenue will be similar to what is was in 2017 and with the squad still needing major investment.
The club won't be attractive to an LBO, the growth in football has slowed down and the share price has done nothing in the last 5 years and club will look even less attractive this time next year if we fail to make CL football.
The only logical reasons shareholders are hanging on to their shares is that their hoping United are bought out by a wealthy benefactor.
The club won't be attractive to an LBO, the growth in football has slowed down and the share price has done nothing in the last 5 years and club will look even less attractive this time next year if we fail to make CL football.
The only logical reasons shareholders are hanging on to their shares is that their hoping United are bought out by a wealthy benefactor.
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Arnold is the CFO. What did you expect? Him talking about why Ashley Young is still at the club?
What exactly is "bullshit" about this except your own post?
Been trying to find figures on how much the Glazers have actually spent on transfers and how much they've recuperated from selling players. I hope someone will double check my findings because it's not good reading.
Season 05/06. Players bought. Players sold net spend
£19,500,000. £18,500,000. £1,000,000
Seson 06/07. £18,600,000. £14,500,000. £4,100,000
Season 07/08. £61,750,000. £35,200,000. £26,550,000
Season 08/09. £35,750,000. £2,000,000. £33,750,000
Season 09/10. £21,000,000. £85,500,000. - £64,500,000
Season 10/11. £27,200,000. £13,650,000. £13,550,000
Season 11/12. £52,900,000. £14,750,000. £38,150,000
Season 12/13. £63,000,000. £11,900,000. £51,100,000
Season 13/14. £67,700,000. £1,000,000. £66, 700,000
Season 14/15. £145,500,000. £41,300,000. £104,200,000
Season 15/16. £103,600,000. £75,450,000. £20,150,000
Season 16/17. £149,000,000. £47,000,000 £102,000,000
Season 17/18. £146,000,000. £9,800,000. £136,200,000
Season 18/19. £67,530,000. £20,500,000. £47,030,000
Season 19/20. £145,000,000. £79,500,000. £65,500,000
Total. £1,124,030,000. £470,550,000. £653,480,000
According to these figure we have a net spend of £653,480,000 which over the course of 14 years works out at £46,677,142 each season which to me is no where near enough.
Season 05/06. Players bought. Players sold net spend
£19,500,000. £18,500,000. £1,000,000
Seson 06/07. £18,600,000. £14,500,000. £4,100,000
Season 07/08. £61,750,000. £35,200,000. £26,550,000
Season 08/09. £35,750,000. £2,000,000. £33,750,000
Season 09/10. £21,000,000. £85,500,000. - £64,500,000
Season 10/11. £27,200,000. £13,650,000. £13,550,000
Season 11/12. £52,900,000. £14,750,000. £38,150,000
Season 12/13. £63,000,000. £11,900,000. £51,100,000
Season 13/14. £67,700,000. £1,000,000. £66, 700,000
Season 14/15. £145,500,000. £41,300,000. £104,200,000
Season 15/16. £103,600,000. £75,450,000. £20,150,000
Season 16/17. £149,000,000. £47,000,000 £102,000,000
Season 17/18. £146,000,000. £9,800,000. £136,200,000
Season 18/19. £67,530,000. £20,500,000. £47,030,000
Season 19/20. £145,000,000. £79,500,000. £65,500,000
Total. £1,124,030,000. £470,550,000. £653,480,000
According to these figure we have a net spend of £653,480,000 which over the course of 14 years works out at £46,677,142 each season which to me is no where near enough.
So where is Zlatan and Alexis Sanchez in this ambitious "net spend" scheme of yours?
You'd have to factor in inflation before averaging out over such a long period of time. £50m may not seem like much now but 10 years ago it was quite substantial.
You need to include wages and renewals to get an idea of how much has been spent, this would then also inlcude free transfers like Ibra and Sanchez
What is the problem here?
Where did these figures come from?
I'm pretty sure this kind of analysis has been done on here before but decent start anyway
As mentioned you need to include wages to get a true picture of what has been invested into the squad
Ambitious net spend scheme of mine? They're nothing to do with me. I'm just quoting a source and I did mention that I hope someone would double check the figures. I also said "according" to these figures. I used according because I'm not taking these figures as gospel.
If Zlatan left on a free why would he appear if we're talking about net "spend"? Also Sanchez is still a Manchester United player as far as I'm aware so I'm guessing that's why he doesn't appear either.
Sorry I can't leave any more replies today. Being a newbie this is my 3rd post
Arnold is not the CFO. He's a marketing guy, putting a spin on growth which has stalled, by hyping up an unverified survey and growth # in China. Those are soft numbers, you learn to read past them.
Because his transfer is an excellent example on why "net spend" is irrelevant. It means nothing.
If this is supposed to be an exercise in judging the owners on how much they have invested in the club, "net spend" is as much relevant as what a Bud costs at OT.
If you want to judge the owners on what they have invested/spent start by looking at the wage bill and the gross spend. Add to that how much they have taken out in dividends from the club over the same period. Then you will have a notion.
What you just did is financially irrelevant and the term "net spend" annoys me more than "Liverpool champions 2019/2020". No not really, but both are disturbing in their own ways.
This. Nobody can seriously believe we've gained 400 million new fans in the past few years.
Ed's transcript:
Good morning and thank you to everyone for joining us today. Also with me on the call, as usual, are Richard Arnold, our Group Managing Director; Cliff Baty, our Chief Financial Officer; and Hemen Tseayo, our Head of Corporate Finance.
Before Richard and Cliff take you through our commercial operations and our financial results, I'd like to say a few words about the Club's overall direction. We and our growing global fan base demand success. Success means winning trophies. That target and that standard has never changed for Manchester United. The progress we've made on the business side, that Rich and Cliff will shortly describe, underpins the continued investment in the football side.
Much of the progress made around that investment in the academy, the recruitment department and the training ground facilities is behind the scenes and therefore isn't immediately apparent to those on the outside looking in. For example, we've materially expanded our recruitment department in recent years to increase its efficiency and productivity. Many of the senior staff in these roles have been at the Club for over 10 years. Recruitment recommendations and decisions are worked on on a day-to-day basis by this department and the manager and his team. These investments, together with the commitment we've made to Ole and his coaching staff in March, have given us the building blocks for success. Whilst we're confident this investment will deliver results, it's important that we are patient, while Ole and his team build for the future. We will continue to focus on the long-term strategy and won't be influenced by short-term distractions. As always with Manchester United, speculation around the summer transfer window was intense and the Club was linked with hundreds of players, almost all without foundation.
Despite this, our agreement department's robust process and early alignment on targets with the manager meant we were able to approach the window in a focused and disciplined way. And new signings, Dan James, Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Harry Maguire joined a strong squad that also saw renewed contracts executed for a number of our key players, including Marcus Rashford, David de Gea, and Victor Lindelof, as well as Martial and Shaw among others earlier in the season.
We're optimistic for the future. The sale and learning of players this summer has also allowed the manager to involve more of our young players and provide a firm foundation and a culture ready for building the next trophy winning squad. Regarding the speculation around the head of football, we are continually reviewing and looking at the potential to evolve our structure on the football side. Much of the speculation around this type of role focuses purely on recruitment, an area that we've evolved in recent years. As already mentioned, we feel the players we've signed this summer demonstrate that this approach is the right one.
Returning to the roots of our Club's ethos of youth-led attacking football is the right way forward and everyone at the Club, the Board, the manager, the squad and all of the staff remains resolute in our desire to get Manchester United back to the top of English football. We'll continue to make the necessary investments to make this happen across our first team players, our academy and our recruitment department. This long-term approach to building a squad is the right one.
I'll now hand you over to our Group Managing Director, Richard Arnold, who'll provide more detail on the key business activities and opportunities.
Good morning and thank you to everyone for joining us today. Also with me on the call, as usual, are Richard Arnold, our Group Managing Director; Cliff Baty, our Chief Financial Officer; and Hemen Tseayo, our Head of Corporate Finance.
Before Richard and Cliff take you through our commercial operations and our financial results, I'd like to say a few words about the Club's overall direction. We and our growing global fan base demand success. Success means winning trophies. That target and that standard has never changed for Manchester United. The progress we've made on the business side, that Rich and Cliff will shortly describe, underpins the continued investment in the football side.
Much of the progress made around that investment in the academy, the recruitment department and the training ground facilities is behind the scenes and therefore isn't immediately apparent to those on the outside looking in. For example, we've materially expanded our recruitment department in recent years to increase its efficiency and productivity. Many of the senior staff in these roles have been at the Club for over 10 years. Recruitment recommendations and decisions are worked on on a day-to-day basis by this department and the manager and his team. These investments, together with the commitment we've made to Ole and his coaching staff in March, have given us the building blocks for success. Whilst we're confident this investment will deliver results, it's important that we are patient, while Ole and his team build for the future. We will continue to focus on the long-term strategy and won't be influenced by short-term distractions. As always with Manchester United, speculation around the summer transfer window was intense and the Club was linked with hundreds of players, almost all without foundation.
Despite this, our agreement department's robust process and early alignment on targets with the manager meant we were able to approach the window in a focused and disciplined way. And new signings, Dan James, Aaron Wan-Bissaka and Harry Maguire joined a strong squad that also saw renewed contracts executed for a number of our key players, including Marcus Rashford, David de Gea, and Victor Lindelof, as well as Martial and Shaw among others earlier in the season.
We're optimistic for the future. The sale and learning of players this summer has also allowed the manager to involve more of our young players and provide a firm foundation and a culture ready for building the next trophy winning squad. Regarding the speculation around the head of football, we are continually reviewing and looking at the potential to evolve our structure on the football side. Much of the speculation around this type of role focuses purely on recruitment, an area that we've evolved in recent years. As already mentioned, we feel the players we've signed this summer demonstrate that this approach is the right one.
Returning to the roots of our Club's ethos of youth-led attacking football is the right way forward and everyone at the Club, the Board, the manager, the squad and all of the staff remains resolute in our desire to get Manchester United back to the top of English football. We'll continue to make the necessary investments to make this happen across our first team players, our academy and our recruitment department. This long-term approach to building a squad is the right one.
I'll now hand you over to our Group Managing Director, Richard Arnold, who'll provide more detail on the key business activities and opportunities.
Are we that type of organisation now where we are using click farms?
This is apparently the fan survey.
https://www.kantarmedia.com/uk/thin...ted-reveals-over-a-billion-fans-and-followers
The survey was conducted across 39 countries, comprised over 54,000 respondents and took place over the first six months of 2019. It repeats a similar survey conducted in 2012 – also by Kantar – to ensure comparability of approach, methodology and results.
The research results revealed a fan and follower base for Manchester United of 1.1 billion people, comprising 467 million fans and 635 million followers*.
This represents an increase of over 400 million on the similar survey conducted in 2012. The largest increases were in the Asia Pacific region, in particular China, where the number of fans and followers grew from 108 million in 2012 to 253 million today.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
*‘Fans’ are defined as those who answered survey questions, unprompted, with the answer that Manchester United was their favourite football team in the world.
The term ‘follower’ is defined as those individuals who answered survey questions, unprompted, with the answer that Manchester United is a football team that they proactively follow in addition to their favourite football team.
Impressive but questionable that since Fergie left we have gained 400 million fans.
This has always annoyed me. In what world was Sanchez a free player, when we sent Mkhi the other way as makeweight? Did we just cancel Mkhitaryan's contract, wrote off the unamortized portion of his contract on the balance and simply allowed him to walk away? No! Sanchez-Mkhi was a swap of 2 players worth 35-40mm quid each with no cash changing hands between clubs. Doesn't make either free.
That's why Richard Arnold and these marketing types are so deceiving. Read the sentence again: "research results revealed a fan and follower base for Manchester United of 1.1 billion people, comprising 467 million fans and 635 million followers*."
We haven't gained fans, we have gained "followers", who are conveniently defined as people that know Manchester United is a football club that they proactively follow in addition to their favourite team. That's not really surprising, considering the growth of internet global usage, mobile penetration, usage stats etc. I check PL, Serie A, Buli, Ligue 1 and occasionally MLS scores every weekend, so by that survey definition I am a follower of 50+ random clubs.
It's all bullshit in other words.
Jesus that makes me a scouser then as I check their score before I watch match of the day.....or not.
Believe it or not, if people likely to tune in (irrespective of your allegiance) it's a good thing for investors. That's more people that are getting exposed to the Chevrolet/Adidas emblems plastered over our kits, and around the boards at Old Trafford.
Well I refuse to buy anything the scousers or city are sponsored by and I’m guessing it’s pretty much visa versa everywhere, I remember the story years ago about a Liverpool fan who refused to go out when the sky was blue
so these sponsors need to start thinking more strategically.I guess the deeper we fall the more “followers” we will get. I remember when Liverpool were as shit as we are now I used to tune in sometimes to laugh at them which probably made me their follower, no point doing that now
It is still missing from the analysis either way
Yeah, because that site completely excludes wages from discussion.
When will people stop banging on about how much United have spent on players. It doesn’t matter because over the last dozen or so windows we have bought some utter garbage. It not how much you spend, it’s what you buy. We have fallen for the hype, the Agents spin and Media speculation too many times. Di Maria being a prime example. The decision makers, and I’m still not clear who decides who to buy, must get it right. That’s their job and if they can’t do it, they should do one as would happen in any other job. Fortunately, I’m retired
A few points on the 2018/19 financials -
1. All United post-tax profits, and more, are paid away as dividends (£23M, mainly to the Glazers). Net assets have fallen for the second sucessive year. The Glazers are not good owners!
2. The £307M cash balance is of limited comfort. First, it's a snapshot after season ticket monies have been received. 3 months earlier cash was only £194M. Secondly, United are owed £18M for players sold but owe £187M for players acquired. These monies will be paid over a number of years but will be a cash drain.
3. Commercial Income (anything which isn't match-day or TV income) has been flat since 2016/17, despite the "marketing genius" of Woodward and his mates. Woodward may now be begining to realise that success on the pitch does have a link to success off it. Rival teams who are more successful on the pitch will close the income gap we have at present and some of them have also invested in larger stadiums in recent years. The Chevrolet shirt deal expires in Summer 2021 - will would-be sponsors pay a fortune to replace them?
4. Management forecast £155/165M EBITDA (profit before interest, tax, depreciation & amortisation) for 2019/20. Based on previous levels of tax, interest and dividends this suggests approx. £100M left to buy players. (I'm assuming profits equal cash here, which they probably will). We spent £70M net this Summer so I'm not expecting a huge level of spend in the next window unless we get rid of Pogba. Our failure to buy a midfielder this Summer may not have been due to "he loses possession too easily" but for financial reasons. Also bear in mind that if we fail to qualify for the Champions League this season Adidas income would fall by 30%. This reduces the £100M figure to under £80M for 2020/21, other things being equal.
5. Our history of Busby, the Babes, Best, Law & Charlton, Ferguson, Eric and Ronaldo put us way ahead of other English clubs. 6 years of Woodward has destroyed this competitive advantage. We will find it very difficult to buy our way back to greatness.
1. All United post-tax profits, and more, are paid away as dividends (£23M, mainly to the Glazers). Net assets have fallen for the second sucessive year. The Glazers are not good owners!
2. The £307M cash balance is of limited comfort. First, it's a snapshot after season ticket monies have been received. 3 months earlier cash was only £194M. Secondly, United are owed £18M for players sold but owe £187M for players acquired. These monies will be paid over a number of years but will be a cash drain.
3. Commercial Income (anything which isn't match-day or TV income) has been flat since 2016/17, despite the "marketing genius" of Woodward and his mates. Woodward may now be begining to realise that success on the pitch does have a link to success off it. Rival teams who are more successful on the pitch will close the income gap we have at present and some of them have also invested in larger stadiums in recent years. The Chevrolet shirt deal expires in Summer 2021 - will would-be sponsors pay a fortune to replace them?
4. Management forecast £155/165M EBITDA (profit before interest, tax, depreciation & amortisation) for 2019/20. Based on previous levels of tax, interest and dividends this suggests approx. £100M left to buy players. (I'm assuming profits equal cash here, which they probably will). We spent £70M net this Summer so I'm not expecting a huge level of spend in the next window unless we get rid of Pogba. Our failure to buy a midfielder this Summer may not have been due to "he loses possession too easily" but for financial reasons. Also bear in mind that if we fail to qualify for the Champions League this season Adidas income would fall by 30%. This reduces the £100M figure to under £80M for 2020/21, other things being equal.
5. Our history of Busby, the Babes, Best, Law & Charlton, Ferguson, Eric and Ronaldo put us way ahead of other English clubs. 6 years of Woodward has destroyed this competitive advantage. We will find it very difficult to buy our way back to greatness.
Clear strategy from the owners and Woodward last summer, they were never going to bring in a midfielder and Maguire only came in because Lukaku was leaving. Last summer was a cost cutting exercise with United failing to qualify for the CL and I agree next summer won't be any different unless we make the CL.
Regarding the cash balance how much money did the club owe this time last year in terms of player recruitment and how much was owed to the club from player sales? Just checked and the amount was £258m so despite that drain on cash United have managed to increase their cash balance so don't see that affecting it too much this year.
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My mistake. Being a newbie and coming from other forums I got used to speaking in general terms. I didn't mean to imply I was talking about how much the Glazers are spending on Manchester United as a whole but just on transfers themselves. I keep hearing we've spent over 1 billion on transfers (wages aside) so I wanted to give a breakdown on how much the club have spent/recuperated on players since they've been here (wages aside) I will try to be more precise next time.
Not being a numbers guy net spend is just 2 words for me but I'd rather donate my right lung to charity before I ever hear the words, Liverpool premier league champions.
The increase in cash as at this June followed a £95M reduction in trade debtors (not related to player transfers). This will not recur this year. Of the £187M owed for player recruitment £110M is due this financial year which is managable but restricts funds for transfers
10 - 15 years ago very little clubs spent £50 million net the market now.
Its like saying you didn't like your wages in 1980 today.
Can someone explain why we lost $50m in 2018?
I read it was something to do with a cut in US corporation tax rates but I didn’t really understand it tbh, not being a finance guy
I read it was something to do with a cut in US corporation tax rates but I didn’t really understand it tbh, not being a finance guy
I don't know if I understand it completely so am open to correction but I think the jist of it is that:
- The US corporate tax rate was cut from 35% down to 21% in December 2017.
- We had opted to defer paying income tax for a period which included dates leading up to December 2017. The intention as far as I understand it was that we expected future expenses to balance the books and as such pay a figure that was a better representation of our income over a longer period rather than be penalised for having a particularly fruitful year. I assume this is the logic behind allowing a company to defer their tax as companies will have business strategies that are longer than a single year. Why should a company that is frugal for a year to save money for a project be penalised by a large tax bill if their plan is to reinvest all of their earnings over the next couple of years and potentially find themselves in debt and paying no tax because they were taxed so heavily the first year.
- So as the tax rates had changed, we were required to re-evaluate our deferred tax position for that period as we could no longer use future incomes to balance it as they would be subject to a different tax rate.
- This calculation came in at around $50m. I assume the plan would have been to use some accounting magic over the next couple of years (maybe spend a few hundred million buying back shares?) and either pay no tax for that period or ask for a rebate.
50 millon 10 years ago would buy you a player like Aguero. A galactico a season is not bad.
Finally people are catching on that Ed's shit at what's he supposedly good at too.