Matic as single pivot [Pogba stays scenario]

roonster09

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I think people need reminding that we played Newcastle yesterday.

Matic in the team for the most part is a no go.
We got away with it because Newcastle are so negative.
Matic shouldn't start against any PL club. He should just come on as a sub if we need to see the game out.
 

tomaldinho1

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Any tactic that involves Matic in the starting XI is failure.

I liked the signing when it happened and he was still class for about 18 months. It's over now. Another baffling contract extension.
League cup and maybe CL group games later on given how weak our group is. That’s all he’s good for now. Great player but legs have truly gone.
 

Ole's screen

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Yes, people moaned after his one misplaced pass, because it was him doing it. Matic has shown before that he can hit back after being labeled too old, so we´ll see. He was one of our best players in preseason, so he is showing trait of good form, and then I believe he can do a job for us. And I will judge him on his actual performance. You can keep on arguing that your section shouted they wanted him subbed. The crowed moaned and many in here agree with you.
Come on man. This isn't some anti-Matic bias. So many times yesterday Matic was where the ball went to die. Everyone's shifting the ball quickly from side to side until it gets to Matic who takes 6 touches to awkwardly pass it to Shaw in pressure. For our first goal, he almost gives it away before rushing in with a last ditch effort that won the ball. Even for the goal we conceded everyone's hammering Maguire but we were completely exposed because Matic was in the wrong position and couldn't cut out a simple ball out.
 

Dve

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Matic shouldn't start against any PL club. He should just come on as a sub if we need to see the game out.
I think he can do a job against the weaker teams when we see a lot of possession, but I would not start him against City, I agree with that. And Ole won´t neither.
 

roonster09

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I think he can do a job against the weaker teams when we see a lot of possession, but I would not start him against City, I agree with that. And Ole won´t neither.
We have Fred, McTominay, Pogba and even de Beek to do the job against weaker teams, Matic just slows down everything and if he was a good enough passer from deep who picks the runs then fair enough, but all he does he kill the tempo and then pass it to nearest player. He doesn't take the risk even when he sees the player making runs.

If we are goal or 2 up and want a player to see out the game, he is a good option.
 

RUCK4444

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Yes, people moaned after his one misplaced pass, because it was him doing it. Matic has shown before that he can hit back after being labeled too old, so we´ll see. He was one of our best players in preseason, so he is showing trait of good form, and then I believe he can do a job for us. And I will judge him on his actual performance. You can keep on arguing that your section shouted they wanted him subbed. The crowed moaned and many in here agree with you. If you want.
I'd love Matic to do the business but it won't happen. Doesn't matter about pre-season, on the pitch he's looked off-it, more so than normal and it was already a major concern.

This has been a long time coming with Matic, some have been pointing it out for a long time, issues like him dropping deeper than our centre backs when he's tired, just can't happen. He's never been quick but he used to glide over the pitch with his long stride and chose when to get forward, now he steps up and simply cannot cover the ground like he used to. It's why McFred is even a thing, otherwise he would be nailed on to start ahead of either of them (if he were the player he was.)
 

Dve

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Come on man. This isn't some anti-Matic bias. So many times yesterday Matic was where the ball went to die. Everyone's shifting the ball quickly from side to side until it gets to Matic who takes 6 touches to awkwardly pass it to Shaw in pressure. For our first goal, he almost gives it away before rushing in with a last ditch effort that won the ball. Even for the goal we conceded everyone's hammering Maguire but we were completely exposed because Matic was in the wrong position and couldn't cut out a simple ball out.
The ball could have been moved faster, I agree with that, but that does not go for Matic alone. Newcastle packed their defence, so it was hard to find good alternatives up the pitch - which Matic obviously was instructed to look for. It´s easy to pass quickly when you pass sideways. It´s the same with Pogba, and that´s his problem when he plays in a deep position; it takes him so long to look for the forward pass that he gets dispossessed.

And yes, after a fail dribble, Matic almost lost the ball before the goal, but got helped out by Shaw to regain possession. But are we expecting 100% perfections now? He faded a bit second half, but you cannot pick out one situation and say this was descriptive for his whole performance (like the other guy, remembering one failed pass, and hence his passing was off).

And yes, mass psychology will always trigger biases towards certain players. If you expect someone to be bad, you will look for evidences to support this view, that´s just the way our brains work, and it might take awhile to change someones mind in that regard. Of course there is some anti-Matic bias going on now. Why were there no moans when Fernandes missed another pass and played the ball off the pitch, while the crowd moaned after Matic first, and that far, only bad pass? I think you know the answer.
 
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Dve

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We have Fred, McTominay, Pogba and even de Beek to do the job against weaker teams, Matic just slows down everything and if he was a good enough passer from deep who picks the runs then fair enough, but all he does he kill the tempo and then pass it to nearest player. He doesn't take the risk even when he sees the player making runs.

If we are goal or 2 up and want a player to see out the game, he is a good option.
Sorry, but that´s not what happened against Newcastle. Watch it again, man, I did. And neither was it the way he performed in preseason. Actually, in the matches he has played this season, from deep position, he has been the most progressive passer of the ones you are mentioning (bar Pogba, perhaps). When Matic is in form, play him. After all, we are paying him money.
 

macheda14

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Matic shouldn't start against any PL club. He should just come on as a sub if we need to see the game out.
Matic can start in games exactly like the Newcastle one. At home against teams that will play with 11 men behind the ball.
 

David De Gea

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Too many people have been playing too much fantasy football. I'm not even going to say FIFA because you have to generally play with some semblance of balance in games if you want to be really good. With fantasy football you just throw as many point winners at it and to hell with the boring bits.

Fred, McT and (likely) VdB of course offer more on the ball but that's not really what you want from Matic. The wealth of attacking options we're going to be able to field should be making up for that and if Matic is acting as a main play maker something is going wrong. I think he offers far more than the others in the defensive aspect and that's the main attribute we need from him to give some sort of balance to the rest of the entertainers.

Despite what the stats say about Freds ball winning or whatever I don't think that translates to making us look a more solid team. McTominay I think can become that player but I don't think it comes naturally to him now. He obviously has a bit of go and get it about him rather than being an anchor and covering spaces. VdB I genuinely don't know what he can do.

Until we sign a better version of what we need I think it needs to be Matic in there. The others might do a job but I'd have no faith in them to properly fulfil that role.
 

Litch

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The pro Matic I think is because many talk up the performance as they want anything but Fred. Be careful what you wish for....
 

RedDevilLucio

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The ball could have been moved faster, I agree with that, but that does not go for Matic alone. Newcastle packed their defence, so it was hard to find good alternatives up the pitch - which Matic obviously was instructed to look for. It´s easy to pass quickly when you pass sideways. It´s the same with Pogba, and that´s his problem when he plays in a deep position; it takes him so long to look for the forward pass that he gets dispossessed.

And yes, after a fail dribble, Matic almost lost the ball before the goal, but got helped out by Shaw to regain possession. But are we expecting 100% perfections now? He faded a bit second half, but you cannot pick out one situation and say this was descriptive for his whole performance (like the other guy, remembering one failed pass, and hence his passing was off).

And yes, mass psychology will always trigger biases towards certain players. If you expect someone to be bad, you will look for evidences to support this view, that´s just the way our brains work, and it might take awhile to change someones mind in that regard. Of course there is some anti-Matic bias going on now. Why were there no moans when Fernandes missed another pass and played the ball off the pitch, while the crowd moaned after Matic first, and that far, only bad pass? I think you know the answer.
Because Bruno scores or assists a goal almost every game. Matic is at fault for a goal almost every game
 
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Fred, McT and (likely) VdB of course offer more on the ball but that's not really what you want from Matic.
...nobody wanting Fred/McTominay to play over Matic bases it on them offering more on the ball. It's because they can move without it.

And did you seriously just try and argue people want Fred in the team ahead of Matic because he's a "fantasy point winner"?
 

lost7

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Matic has declined too much to cover our midfield, but I have to say seeing his successful passes throuh the lines time and time again in the first half just highlighted how limited both Fred and McTominay are when it comes to progressing the ball. I would love it if in the January transfer market we were to look for someone to come in and make that position theirs (just like we did with Bruno 2 years ago)
 
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Because Bruno scores or assists a goal almost every game. Matic is at fault for a goal almost every game
You'd think it was obvious, right?

I genuinely can't believe people need it explained to them that Fernandes giving the ball away is not the same as someone in the backline or midfield doing it.
 

Giant Midget

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He’s been finished since 2017. A single pivot or a double pivot or a super duper quadruple pivot isn’t going to make any difference.

If he was Pirlo, maybe you could protect him with two runners in midfield like Fred and McTominay to leave him to work his magic, but his passing is nowhere near good enough to build the midfield around him like that.
 

jesperjaap

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I never wanted us to sign him, but for me....very good at first, looke dto be finished ad legs went and was awful, indian summer where played quite well again.

So far this season, its a mixture, I thougth he was very good yesterday and was also very good in another game, cant remember which. He has also been poor too especially agaisnt SOuthampton.

He is still the only midfielder we have that can actually do the role properly in a double pivot though reading the game, using his strengthm shielding the ball and bringing it out. The problem is though that he often moves the ball too slowly and seems to be more and more often coming back too deep for it as well. Adding that to hi sinconsitent form maybe due to age and of coruse is age generally......absolutely no can we rely on him as a single pivot over the season. We still have the problem that we dont have a single player defensively we can trust in a double pivot even
 

Silas

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Matic has declined too much to cover our midfield, but I have to say seeing his successful passes throuh the lines time and time again in the first half just highlighted how limited both Fred and McTominay are when it comes to progressing the ball. I would love it if in the January transfer market we were to look for someone to come in and make that position theirs (just like we did with Bruno 2 years ago)
Yeah as past-it as he is physically, on the ball he's a completely different level to McTominay and Fred. There was one pass he calmly played to Greenwood from our corner with 2 men obstructing him that was literally inch perfect. Many other players would've resorted to a hoof or just lost the ball. A young/fast Matic would be the perfect player for our midfield. I wonder who the closest player is to that right now... De Jong maybe?
 

MvG

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Yeah as past-it as he is physically, on the ball he's a completely different level to McTominay and Fred. There was one pass he calmly played to Greenwood from our corner with 2 men obstructing him that was literally inch perfect. Many other players would've resorted to a hoof or just lost the ball. A young/fast Matic would be the perfect player for our midfield. I wonder who the closest player is to that right now... De Jong maybe?
The big Norwegian lad who plays for Sheffield United. Forgot all about him until reading your post. Is he still there ? Way too good for that lot…

EDIT: Sander Berge. Still at Sheffield, surprisingly.
 
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roonster09

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Sorry, but that´s not what happened against Newcastle. Watch it again, man, I did. And neither was it the way he performed in preseason. Actually, in the matches he has played this season, from deep position, he has been the most progressive passer of the ones you are mentioning (bar Pogba, perhaps). When Matic is in form, play him. After all, we are paying him money.
What is progressive passing? If it's a distance the passes covered then it's not a stat that is worth much as he drops deep like a CB with acres of space to pass, this always leads to 1 man midfield show when Matic is too deep and Pogba is left all alone in midfield. Non creative mids should play quick passes, shouldn't take so many touches just to pick a simple pass.

We are paying everyone good money, Matic should play but not as a starter in PL. When he is not tired he is a good player but his legs are gone and you get very good performance for few mins.
 

Redfrog

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The thing is-forwards,CBs (remember Blanc),and especially goalies can last longer. Matic' position is much different
Thatis why Ronaldo will play until he is 38-39, Matic cannot
I think that Ronaldo can play even longer, the guy is just a beast physically. But one bad injury at that age and it can all go wrong.
Anyway, he is 37 at the beginning of the year so it’s still a very short window.
We should have get a midfielder this year…but I know, we had an extraordinary window anyway, no complaints about that !
 

largelyworried

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Thought Matic has looked done so far this season. Looking at the game against Newcastle, he was ok on the ball and ok when he was close enough to go in for a tackle. But his lack of mobility meant that he was just way too often in the wrong position, and when Newcastle countered, it was all too easy to just play around him.

His tracking back for their goal was dire. It's arguable if it was really his man anyway, given that Manquillo was coming from a wide area. But still, you'd expect your main DM to be gunning back into the area to cover the danger from a counter-attack, and in the time it took Matic to get into the box, Manquillo had gone from 10 yards behind him to 10 yards ahead.

Personally, I don't think a single pivot is an option for us this season with any of our players. That said, Im not sure there's any DM good enough out there to let us play Pogba and Bruno as two number 8s. But that's for another thread.
 

Bilbo

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IMO its these Newcastle types of games where Matic is least useful for us. People think 'we'll dominate them, we can get away with Matic' but actually its those teams that counter against us that expose him the most. The more space he has around him the more vulnerable he is. Away to PSG is a better match to put Matic in than home to Newcastle, although sadly these days neither would be preferable. His best use to us now is to shore up the last 20 minutes of a tight game where we are holding on to a lead.
 

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I think that Ronaldo can play even longer, the guy is just a beast physically. But one bad injury at that age and it can all go wrong.
Anyway, he is 37 at the beginning of the year so it’s still a very short window.
We should have get a midfielder this year…but I know, we had an extraordinary window anyway, no complaints about that !
I agree, but :touchthewood: it won't happen. Throughout his career he's been obsessed with training and football, that is why he is still abeast.
Matic was done couple of years ago, he simply cannot play a major role for us. Not just for us, but for most of the PL teams
 

Dve

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Because Bruno scores or assists a goal almost every game. Matic is at fault for a goal almost every game
Is he now...

I see people want to to blame Matic for Newcastle´s goal on Saturday, but no mention of Shaw who was rounded and Maguire with his failed tackle.

A year ago every goal was Maguire's fault, and now it´s Matic's turn to be the scapegoat. It always has to be one.
 
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RedDevilLucio

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Is he now...

I see people want to to blame Matic for Newcastle´s goal on Saturday, but no mention of Shaw who was rounded and Maguire with his failed tackle.

A year ago every goal was Maguire's fault, and now it´s Matic's turn to be the scapegoat. It always has to be one.
Matic has declined too much to cover our midfield, but I have to say seeing his successful passes throuh the lines time and time again in the first half just highlighted how limited both Fred and McTominay are when it comes to progressing the ball. I would love it if in the January transfer market we were to look for someone to come in and make that position theirs (just like we did with Bruno 2 years ago)
In the Leeds game Mctominay done nothing but tackle then give ball to Pogba who beasted the assists. It’s that simple. Win ball give it Pogba. No need to have the Matic 7 touches run ball 40 yard then pass backwards/sideways when one little pass to Pogba will do.

I can definitely see why people would give credit to Bruno for a goal in the Newcastle game ( he scored one ).

I can definitely see why people would give Matic the blame for the goal conceded in Newcastle game ( he was in a midfield that got walked straight through ).
 

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From all our options i trust Matic the most on no6. Not saying that he is doing great job there but he is bettwr than Fred and McT can't play no6.
My first option would be Donny tbh.
 

MattofManchester

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Nobody can play as the lone DM with Pogba and Bruno in the side.

I do wonder, however, if we can't shift Fred over to right back and have him cut inside and sit in midfield alongside a new DM. Would allow Bruno and Pogba to roam at will and yet we wouldn't be as defensively open as we are with Pogba in a 2.
Would mean AWB makes way, but it is a theory.
 

RUCK4444

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Nobody can play as the lone DM with Pogba and Bruno in the side.

I do wonder, however, if we can't shift Fred over to right back and have him cut inside and sit in midfield alongside a new DM. Would allow Bruno and Pogba to roam at will and yet we wouldn't be as defensively open as we are with Pogba in a 2.
Would mean AWB makes way, but it is a theory.
I understood your first point but you totally lost me on the second (bolded) one :lol:
 

MattofManchester

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I understood your first point but you totally lost me on the second (bolded) one :lol:
Not that hard to understand though, is it?
Similar to Fabian Delph at City and given Fred is left footed, have him play as a Right back who sits in midfield when we're attacking.

It's hardly the worst idea in the world.
 

AgentSmith

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Not that hard to understand though, is it?
Similar to Fabian Delph at City and given Fred is left footed, have him play as a Right back who sits in midfield when we're attacking.

It's hardly the worst idea in the world.
Delph played LB though? Fred would be lost at sea in the right-back position for a variety of reasons.

McTominay makes more sense as an option for the type of inverted fullback you’re describing.