As a German with Iranian roots I am 100% behind Özil in this matter. We sell tanks to Saudi-Arabia but when a football player poses with the Turkish president it is okay to question his nationality?!
Mesut Özil retires from "die Mannschaft"
- Thread starter OutlawGER
- Start date
What a loss.
You have to consider here that Erdogan imprisoned several german journalists not that long ago. A good hearted photo with Erdogan was a wacky move by Özil.
He caused a massive disorder going into the WC. And he had to know about it. Obviously helping Erdogan for his election was more important to him than the success of the German NT in Russia. That's reason enough to suspend him right away. But as i said, the DFB handled it in the worst case. If they don't suspend him, what they should have done imo, they can't use him as the scapegoat for the WC failure afterwards.
That's not true.
Erdogan has plenty of critics in Turkey. And most of his reforms are a way of quenching that.
Even Robert Mugabe has his fans in Zimbabwe. You'd be surprised how many.
I never said the two men were like for like. Rather the analogy refers to the controversi views they generate. Erdogan in Germany where he is banned from campaigning and Robert in Britain because of his land policies.
Özil has solely shunned all the blame whilst meeting and posing not once but twice with a dictator that commits genocide on minorities of the country.
I'm sorry Mesut, you are not fully to blame but you carry some responsibility. The fact that your performances have been well below par for quite some time now also has a lot to do with it.
It's a good move for all parts as Dfb and Özil will both benefit from this as DFB needs a generational shift and Özil needs to give 100 percent at Arsenal and fully prove that he still is World Class.
I'm sorry Mesut, you are not fully to blame but you carry some responsibility. The fact that your performances have been well below par for quite some time now also has a lot to do with it.
It's a good move for all parts as Dfb and Özil will both benefit from this as DFB needs a generational shift and Özil needs to give 100 percent at Arsenal and fully prove that he still is World Class.
Hmm, does Podolski call himself German-Polish? In most press I've read I've never seen Özil directly referred to as anything other than "German" - in fact, the closest I've seen to him being called "German-Turkish" is in his own tweet, just there, alongside where he describes himself as having two hearts, one German, one Polish.
It isn't hypocrisy at all and talk about completely missing his point. He is German. He is Turkish. He isn't just German-Turkish. You can call him German without the need to constantly reference the Turkish side which is completely his point. Podolski is German and he is Polish. He is called German, not constantly German Polish. As a fellow dual national I have the heart of two nations. You don't need to constantly mention both to try belittle my attachment to my country like is done with Ozil.Talk about hypocrisy and lack of self-awareness, at the start of his letter:
"I have two hearts, one German, one Turkish".
At the end of his letter:
"Are there criteria for being fully German which I do not fit? My friend Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose are never referred to as German-Polish, so why am I German-Turkish? Is it because it is Turkey? Is it because I'm Muslim? I think here lays an important issue. By being referred to as German-Turkish, it is already distinguishing people who have family from more than one country".
Well gee, one surefire way of being referred to as German-Turkish would be by describing yourself as half German and half Turkish.
Stop being thick and trying to act like he hasn't been vilified for having foreign ancestry.
It wasn't Ozil's fault that Werner and Mueller were useless and clueless.
The point has sailed over your head.
Can you imagine if an Indian Muslim cricketer of Pakistani or Kashmiri origin was suspended for posing for a photograph with a Pakistani PM? The liberal press and the international media would be up in arms and rightly so.
As an immigrant in Sweden I fully see where he's coming from (especially the part where he's German when he does something positive but Turkish when it's negative) however I also understand why people see what he did to be controversial. I think the whole situation could have been handled better tbh and there's blame on both sides IMO.
Feel sorry for him but on the other hand he should realize why a photo with Erdogan is problematic.
When has Ozil called himself German-Turkish? If Podolski was 'pure' German, why didn't he celebrate two goals in a major tournament against Poland? He surely must have his heart somewhere else to not celebrate them.
Good on him. Screw international football.
He took a fecking picture with him, he wasn't organising Erdogan's election campaign
That's as pathetic and ignorant a comment as Özil's in his Tweet where he says that "My job is as a football player, not as a politician, and a meeting was not an endorsement of any policies. In fact, we spoke about the same topic that we do every time we have met - football".
He can't be so ignorant and foolish as to not realise what kind of a message it sends out to the world when someone of his fame and profile meets Erdogan so warmly for a public press opportunity shortly before the Turkish elections?!
If, hypothetically, someone like Theresa May, Boris Johnson, or Rees-Mogg, (or, somehow, Erdogan) wanted me to meet them for a session of shaking hands and grinning like a moron with them in front of the press I'd tell those vermin to get stuffed. Either that, or I'd use the opportunity of being invited to meet them to heavily criticise them and tell them what for.
I think it's almost impossible for people living outside of Germany to understand the ramifications of that picture as there is quite a bit of backstory involved.
Erdogan routinely adresses Germans of Turkish descent as if they were his own citizens, even telling them what to do. So when such a picture appears along with the caption "My President" then it triggers the worst xenophobic instincts that you can find among German football fans.
I think it's not a coincidence that it happened to two players who currently don't live in Germany cause they might not have been aware how hostile the political climate between those two countries had recently become.
Either way the DFB's reaction has been a disaster. The whole thing may have been contained with some clever management but they completely misjudged its impact and let it get blown completely out of proportion.
So now they've lost one of their most talented players, their reputation has taken a serious hit and they still have Gündogan on their hands. If he doesn't retire and the crowd boos him again the next time he plays things could get really ugly.
Erdogan routinely adresses Germans of Turkish descent as if they were his own citizens, even telling them what to do. So when such a picture appears along with the caption "My President" then it triggers the worst xenophobic instincts that you can find among German football fans.
I think it's not a coincidence that it happened to two players who currently don't live in Germany cause they might not have been aware how hostile the political climate between those two countries had recently become.
Either way the DFB's reaction has been a disaster. The whole thing may have been contained with some clever management but they completely misjudged its impact and let it get blown completely out of proportion.
So now they've lost one of their most talented players, their reputation has taken a serious hit and they still have Gündogan on their hands. If he doesn't retire and the crowd boos him again the next time he plays things could get really ugly.
People who are making this solely about Özil's nationality/race/religion are missing the point. The reason the photo was so controversial is because Erdogan has been (rightly, under international law) banned from holding his political rallies in Germany, which is the source of the massive tension between the countries. For two national team footballers to then take part in Erdogan's campaigning (which the photos clearly were) it should surely come as no surprise to them if people are displeased and call them out for it.
This might as well be in the current events forum.
Interesting reading though.
Interesting reading though.
Yeah because Beckham has roots in Zimbabwe ? Stupid comparison
it was during Erdogans campaigning just ahead of the election though. Özils can say that it had nothing to do with politics all he wants and the DFB have done a horrible job during all of this, but he can't be surprised that taking photos with Erdogan during the final election campaigns would cause irritation at the very least.
Won't be a loss. DFB should thank him for clearing up this feck fest by just retiring himself.
You're over-simplifying, it depends on the President. The British press would have generally been positive about Meghan Markle having a warm meeting with Barack Obama, but would be more concerned if she were to have one now with Trump.
So racists don't like erdogan cos he's a tyrant and intolerant and so go after ozil possibly pushing him out the country.
My head is spinning.
Much sadder part is he listed everything about his German-ness, including his charitable activities, his achievements and honors with the national football team and all that and also clearly lays out his reasons for meeting with erdogan and still some people only want to rehash the same buzz words from square one without trying to take the conversation forward. People really have parasites for brains.
Unfortunately, I think it really is a muslim thing, and there's no winning here for ozil. Sad for society and humanity.
My head is spinning.
Much sadder part is he listed everything about his German-ness, including his charitable activities, his achievements and honors with the national football team and all that and also clearly lays out his reasons for meeting with erdogan and still some people only want to rehash the same buzz words from square one without trying to take the conversation forward. People really have parasites for brains.
Unfortunately, I think it really is a muslim thing, and there's no winning here for ozil. Sad for society and humanity.
Why is that relevant? To me Özil posing with Erdogan isn't different to let's say Müller posing with him or indeed, as Özil brought that one up himself, Matthäus with Putin. As a German I could not care less. Athletes meet presidents and heads of state all the time and most of them are shady as hell. I can't remember any media outrage over anyone meeting Bush and Obama. And how much death and destruction have they caused in the world? Typical Western hypocrisy.
Whilst you make a few good point, lets not kid ourselves and pretend that a lot of his criticism has come from those who a) don't see him as a proper German because of his Turkish roots and b) secretly take issue with the fact that he is a proud Muslim representing Germany. Important that is not lost in this otherwise people don't learn their lesson, we can't as a society just brush these issues away.
A lot of the criticism he has received has been absolutely disgusting and completely unreasonable to the fact that there were many who solely blamed him for their shocking world cup campaign.
I was just using a well known personality.
Yea, I think Beckhams family are from
Zimbabwe
Could have used Andy Flower. But
1. Most people wouldn't know who he is
2. Him and Robert aren't on best terms when I last checked.
See my reply to @Zlatan 7
And please do calm down. No need to lose your cool over an analogy in passing like that.
Maybe because he said he considers him his president despite playing for Germany?
Could there be a possibility that his meeting and photo was something to possibly avoid an Enes Kanter type of situation?
If he still has family in Turkey, who knows what crazy man might have done to his family - imprisonment, etc.
I’m not saying this had anything to do with the situation - but at the same time I am sure rebuffing Erdegon could possibly carry some unintended consequences.
If he still has family in Turkey, who knows what crazy man might have done to his family - imprisonment, etc.
I’m not saying this had anything to do with the situation - but at the same time I am sure rebuffing Erdegon could possibly carry some unintended consequences.
Yeah, good summary.
I love that he's trahing that twat Grindel as well as some medial reactions after the WC. However rightfully complaining about right-wing tendencies in Germany but at the same time being unable to see any wrongdoing in posing with Erdogan, who's representing those exact views, if not worse, is simply hypocrisy. Defending it with ancestry and heritage won't change that.
Yes , I can draw a parallel with India. I can imagine perfectly well what would happen if a Muslim Indian from Kashmir says something daft about Kashmir being an independent land and triggers the worst form of Xenophobia in many Indians. But that still doesn't explain why the DFB should be getting dragged into this. Why on earth is a player's act of tacit (or ignorant) support of a potential dictator affect a footballing governing body? It is one thing if Özil did what he did in a German kit after an important match at the Veltins Arena or Westfalenstadion. That might have breached some FIFA rule about political displays. But he was holed up in some office holding up an Arsenal kit not even a German national team shirt. There's also an older photo of him meeting Erdogan with a Real Madrid shirt. He did what he did as a private citizen. I understand that with his actions he's being an ultra-nationalist diaspora Turk at worst and ignorant at best. But he's not a politician, he owes nothing to anyone. His act wasn't even in his day job of playing football. Is he supposed to be barred from displays of political support or expression? What if he'd posed with Trump or Theresa May? The latter's Govt is busy deporting legal migrants.
They should. Most underrated test batsman (joint with Aravinda) in the last twenty years.
People that are saying there's blame on both sides- He's just one man who was gone after by his bosses and the whole media. What is his mistake here?
It's not even like he was the worst player at the world cup. Far from it. This is an amazing trumpian distraction tactic. Masterful.
It's not even like he was the worst player at the world cup. Far from it. This is an amazing trumpian distraction tactic. Masterful.
Cricket is looked down by many on here.
But that's an issue for another day. Only brought up Becks because everyone and their mother knows who he is.
No and Emre Can for example had no problem in refusing Erdogan's invitation.
This whole thing just shows what everyone already knows, Özil isn't the smartest cookie and that's not a racist comment but everyone who has heard him talk will know this. That's also the reason why he keeps publishing such statements on the internet (let's be real, he doesn't write those texts himself) and never speaks for himself on camera about these things.
The whole thing is really unfortunate because Özil has done big damage to all of us (germans with a migration history, including me => my mother's family is from croatia) and it is beyond stupid to think you have to respect someone like Erdogan in order to repesct your ancestry.
I don't really get the Podolski example (who BTW actually has been described as German-Polish when it was relevant to the context), if anything people not having a problem with him acknowledging his Polish roots does prove that this isn't about blind nationalism?
It's not like everyone in Germany is a nationalistic xenophobe. The AFD polls at "just" 15%, but the criticism was much bigger than that and came from the whole political spectrum, because when you endorse someone who is seen as a despotic ruler with ambitions of becoming a dictator and who also happens to antagonise Germany on a regular basis it's simply a political issue that gets everyone involved. Trying to reduce this to xenophobia is simply a cheap attempt at deflection.
The biggest culprit is the DFB though, they had to either kick Özil out because his endorsement was fundamentally at odds with the sort of values the association identifies with or they had to say that they don't care about politics. Instead they tried to sweep this under the rug, perhaps hoping a good WC would make people forget about it. But when die Mannschaft failed in Russia the management suddenly found its morals and made Özil the scapegoat for the early exit.
How they dealt with this is an utter disgrace and I don't think Bierhoff and Grindel have the moral authority anymore to keep their jobs.
It's not like everyone in Germany is a nationalistic xenophobe. The AFD polls at "just" 15%, but the criticism was much bigger than that and came from the whole political spectrum, because when you endorse someone who is seen as a despotic ruler with ambitions of becoming a dictator and who also happens to antagonise Germany on a regular basis it's simply a political issue that gets everyone involved. Trying to reduce this to xenophobia is simply a cheap attempt at deflection.
The biggest culprit is the DFB though, they had to either kick Özil out because his endorsement was fundamentally at odds with the sort of values the association identifies with or they had to say that they don't care about politics. Instead they tried to sweep this under the rug, perhaps hoping a good WC would make people forget about it. But when die Mannschaft failed in Russia the management suddenly found its morals and made Özil the scapegoat for the early exit.
How they dealt with this is an utter disgrace and I don't think Bierhoff and Grindel have the moral authority anymore to keep their jobs.
It has not much to do with the failure at the world cup. This was a huge scandal in Germany before the tournanent had started already. It had massive impact on our preparation.
But the DFB is using this now to overshadow the horrific WC performance.
Wonder if Löw will still consider him a automatic starter 
I didn't care about the pictures, but to be honest, he played his best football 4-6 years ago. He had a fantastic career for Germany, including winning the biggest honor there is in football. Sad that it ended the way it did, but this will be forgotten in a couple of years.
DfB is a disgrace though, Bierhoff should be sacked.
I didn't care about the pictures, but to be honest, he played his best football 4-6 years ago. He had a fantastic career for Germany, including winning the biggest honor there is in football. Sad that it ended the way it did, but this will be forgotten in a couple of years.
DfB is a disgrace though, Bierhoff should be sacked.
What did the German FA say about him?