Middle East Politics

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,300

If this is accurate then Gantz might get the first chance to form a government.

(Edit): two other polls much more favorable for Netanyahu:


 

rotherham_red

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2005
Messages
7,411

A very good thread on the pernicious influence of Saudi on the rest of the Muslim world and the hypocrisy of the West in their dealings with them...
 

antihenry

CAF GRU Rep
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Messages
7,401
Location
Chelsea FC
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ution-teenager-murtaja-qureiris-a8950251.html

Saudi Arabia is seeking to execute a teenager who has been imprisoned ever since his arrest as a 13-year-old, human rights experts have said.

Murtaja Qureiris, 18, is facing the death penalty – possibly by crucifixion – over charges including anti-government protests, joining a “terrorist organisation”, firing at security forces and making Molotov cocktails which were later thrown at a police station.

The 18-year-old denies the charges,CNN has reported, claiming confessions which the prosecution has relied on were obtained under duress.

Amnesty Internationalsaid it had confirmed the country’s public prosecutor was seeking the death penalty for offences which date back to when Mr Qureiris was just 10 years old.
 

Adisa

likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
50,408
Location
Birmingham
In a lot of ways, ISIS aren't as brutal. Last week Pompeo accused Venezuela of being human rights abusers. The whole thing makes me sick.
 

Atze-Peng

Dortmund Fan
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Messages
592
2cents said:
Very broad question, have you something specific in mind? Morality, Historical basis, etc?
Click to expand...
Just in general curious about non-muslims arguing about Islam and if they've read the Quran. And if so, what their reaction is based on not having grown up into it.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,300
Atze-Peng said:
Just in general curious about non-muslims arguing about Islam and if they've read the Quran. And if so, what their reaction is based on not having grown up into it.
Click to expand...
Ah ok, maybe I can give an answer. I think like many non-Muslims I initially started reading the Qur’an with the expectation that it would basically be the Muslim version of the Bible. It was a bit disorienting at first to find that they’re not strictly analogous in terms of their standing within the different monotheistic traditions, and also in terms of their format, style, and function. It all seemed really unfamiliar, even the sections which reference familiar figures from the Bible.

I think because of that disorientation - which is probably not helped by having to read it in English translation - I went looking for familiar stuff which, given how Islam is generally portrayed in public (this was around the mid-2000s when I read it first), led to a focus on the legal/proscriptive aspects of the text. This in turn drove the impression of Islam as a really dour, mind-numbingly legalistic religion with little or no spirituality or mystery. I can’t say for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this experience is typical for many non-Muslims who read the Qur’an independently for the first time.

However by that time I’d done a bit of traveling in Muslim countries and had some experiences which helped me realize that there’s a lot more to Islam then the law, even if I didn’t really have the tools or knowledge to discern that from the text of the Qur’an. So I did some independent study and more in college. I think something that clicked with me was a professor of mine making the point that it was seriously unlikely that any significant amount of non-Muslims in history have ever converted to Islam simply after reading the Qur’an and being persuaded by its purely legal elements. He argued that it was far more likely that it was the Qur’an’s broader, over-riding monotheistic principles and values, and the sense of brotherhood it inspires among its adherents, that appealed to non-Muslims who subsequently converted. Going back to read the Qur’an again with that in mind was a much more valuable experience. It made the text seem more cohesive and focused my attention on the general spirit/essence of the message rather than the specific injunctions.
 

Atze-Peng

Dortmund Fan
Joined
Nov 8, 2011
Messages
592
2cents said:
Ah ok, maybe I can give an answer. I think like many non-Muslims I initially started reading the Qur’an with the expectation that it would basically be the Muslim version of the Bible. It was a bit disorienting at first to find that they’re not strictly analogous in terms of their standing within the different monotheistic traditions, and also in terms of their format, style, and function. It all seemed really unfamiliar, even the sections which reference familiar figures from the Bible.

I think because of that disorientation - which is probably not helped by having to read it in English translation - I went looking for familiar stuff which, given how Islam is generally portrayed in public (this was around the mid-2000s when I read it first), led to a focus on the legal/proscriptive aspects of the text. This in turn drove the impression of Islam as a really dour, mind-numbingly legalistic religion with little or no spirituality or mystery. I can’t say for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this experience is typical for many non-Muslims who read the Qur’an independently for the first time.

However by that time I’d done a bit of traveling in Muslim countries and had some experiences which helped me realize that there’s a lot more to Islam then the law, even if I didn’t really have the tools or knowledge to discern that from the text of the Qur’an. So I did some independent study and more in college. I think something that clicked with me was a professor of mine making the point that it was seriously unlikely that any significant amount of non-Muslims in history have ever converted to Islam simply after reading the Qur’an and being persuaded by its purely legal elements. He argued that it was far more likely that it was the Qur’an’s broader, over-riding monotheistic principles and values, and the sense of brotherhood it inspires among its adherents, that appealed to non-Muslims who subsequently converted. Going back to read the Qur’an again with that in mind was a much more valuable experience. It made the text seem more cohesive and focused my attention on the general spirit/essence of the message rather than the specific injunctions.
Click to expand...

Interesting and I mostly agree with you on the experience of reading the religious texts. But eventually I came to the complete opposite conclusion. Especially the part of "the sense of brotherhood it inspires among its adherents" is very similar to that of far-right ideologies. Especially considering the amount of mention that disbelievers are to be seen as very different and in some parts it being very clearly stated to not have disbelievers as companions.
Sure, that grants a good chunk of brotherhood as you say - but at the expense of outsiders, creating a sort of two-classes mentality.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,300
Thread on a single episode in the little-known about First Iraqi-Kurdish War (1961-70):

 

Red Defence

Full Member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
12,940
Location
“United stands for attacking, attractive football
First Sheik Mohammed’s daughter fled from him and was captured and returned to Dubai. Now is wife has fled and he is trying to get her “returned” to Dubai.

Princess Haya bint al-Hussein, daughter of the late King Hussein of Jordan, and her husband, Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum, the ruler of Dubai, are understood to have parted. They are now engaged in a formal dispute in the high court. The case began after she fled Dubai and is due to resume later this month.

Requests are alleged to have been made to the UK through private Dubai channels seeking her return to the United Arab Emirates and she is believed to have been concerned about her personal safety in the UK. The Foreign Office, however, is understood to regard the matter as a private dispute.
Click to expand...
Women are their possessions to do with as they will. They just can’t seem to understand that the western world doesn’t agree with their stance on this. We are just expected to do their bidding and return her. What’s with the cruel streak in these Arab leaders.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,300
Atze-Peng said:
Interesting and I mostly agree with you on the experience of reading the religious texts. But eventually I came to the complete opposite conclusion. Especially the part of "the sense of brotherhood it inspires among its adherents" is very similar to that of far-right ideologies. Especially considering the amount of mention that disbelievers are to be seen as very different and in some parts it being very clearly stated to not have disbelievers as companions.
Sure, that grants a good chunk of brotherhood as you say - but at the expense of outsiders, creating a sort of two-classes mentality.
Click to expand...
I’d agree that the distinction between believers and unbelievers is undeniably prevalent throughout the text, e.g. it’s right there in the fatiha to begin with. I guess the question is, how should it be understood in terms of (a) the specific contexts within which it occurs in the text, and (b) the prevailing spirit of the Qur’an. As far as I can see, there is a very wide range of opinion on this question among Muslims who seriously engage the text.

I believe the strong sentiment attached to the concept of umma which the distinction helps generate is probably one of the defining elements of Islam which appeals to non-Muslims and so draws converts. I’ve felt the appeal myself. I think it’s a basic human tribal impulse which the Qur’an expresses in its own way. And like all such impulses, it may manifest in extreme, even hateful ‘othering’, but not necessarily so.
 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,300
Nasrallah interview thread:

 

2cents

Historiographer, and obtainer of rare antiquities
Scout
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
16,300

 
You must log in or register to reply here.