MPFG Draft: SF - Gio vs General_Elegancia/Invictus

With players at their peak, who would win?


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Physiocrat

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Gio



General_Elegancia/Invictus



Gio Tactics

LEADING FROM THE FRONT

Spearheading the attack is Kylian Mbappe, whose decisive record at the highest level ratchets up our goal-threat (35 goals in 54 games in the Champions League, including goals against Bayern Munich, Man City, Real Madrid and Barcelona over the past two seasons). More pertinently to the shape of this game he has scored heavily against both David Alaba (6 goals in 7 games) and Dani Carvajal's Real Madrid (3 goals in 4 games). His searing acceleration and devastating close control makes him dangerous in both tight and open spaces and his movement looks tailor-made for the passing quality of Pirlo from deep. Attacking from the left side is the posterboy of the golden age of Serie A, Beppe Signori. He elevated Lazio to title contenders up against some of the greatest teams in history. In a miserly era for attackers, he scored 188 goals in Serie A, achieving a goals-to-game ratio that was better than anyone else in the top 10 Serie A scorers of all time (with the exception of Meazza and Nordahl who both played in somewhat more open eras). Both forwards will relish the service and space provided by the inventive Roberto Mancini who drops into a false 9 role where he can utilise his creativity and passing. Given GE's team looks relatively less strong at full-back, Mancini is selected because he is likely to maximise Signori and Mbappe's threat in behind.

DUELLING IT OUT IN MIDFIELD

The midfield is built around the talents of Andrea Pirlo in a balanced 4-3-3 system which we expect to wrestle control of the game. As the playmaking heart-beat of Milan's Champions League wins in 2003 and 2007, of Italy's World Cup win in 2006, and the player of the tournament at Euro 2012, he is a serial tournament dominator who delivers against the best teams on the biggest occasions. His £60m price tag was perhaps somewhat of a bargain, but also reflects that building the right set-up around him is not straightforward.

With that in mind, we have paired him first with Edgar Davids whose ravenous ball-winning and recirculating abilities complement Pirlo's attributes. As a partnership it has shades of the highly successful Pirlo/Gattuso dynamic for club and country, fired up a couple of levels in possession where we expect Davids surging runs from midfield to pose all sorts of problems. On the other side of Pirlo we have introduced Marco Tardelli whose high-energy box-to-box style complements Pirlo perfectly. With the added defensive protection provided by Davids and Tardelli, it should help to slow down Di Stefano's influence on the game, while providing the platform for Pirlo to perform.

STRENGTH AT THE BACK

Franco Baresi
leads a San Siro themed defence which looks water-tight all over the park. To his left is his Milan counterpart Karl-Heinz Schnellinger, who mirrors Maldini's ability to defend well centrally while also providing good quality on the ball – backed up by his run of 3rd, 6th, 11th and 12th position in the Ballon d’Or between 1962 (where he was Germany’s best player in the World Cup) and 1966. Baresi's partner in the centre is his national team counterpart Giuseppe Bergomi. Together Baresi and Bergomi kept a clean sheet in two thirds of their games together (30 out of 50 matches), including a run of 11 clean sheets in 13 games up to and including the 1990 World Cup when they hit their peaks. Completing the back four is Javier Zanetti who, like Davids, Tardelli and other Duracell bunnies in the side, has the energy to match the opposition and then inject a load of flank-dominating quality on top of that. The partnership between Zanetti / Mbappe looks tailor-made to get the best out of both of them and we fancy it to cause all sorts of problems down GE's left side.

General_Elegancia/Invictus Tactics

  • Formation: fairly straight-forward and vertically oriented 4—3—3, with Alfredo Di Stéfano as the box-to-box “architect” of the team.
  • Style: Relentless and proactive from start to finish, lots of pressing and also interplay given the personnel at hand, and a near-constant emphasis on the attacking side of the game.
  • Special instruction(s): target Pirlo and disrupt his rhythm, ceaselessly find mano-a-mano situations with the much more dominant Di Stéfano, tactically foul him early and often, and isolate him with the “quadrilateral of death” (starting with Tévez if he withdraws every now and then, and passing through Schuster, Jansen and Di Stéfano himself if he wants to get his hands dirty). The objective is to ensure that our game-regulator has a cleaner platform and better foothold than the opposition's game-regulator. Especially with superior secondary playmakers in Kopa and Schuster (who will amplify the creative deficit between the teams).
  • How the role suits the GOAT: healthy combination of industry and technical prowess around him, well-timed runs and movement in and out of possession, the freedom to influence the proceedings and proverbially be at the heart of the game at almost all times, the presence of a much-trusted partner, the absence of some megalomaniac twerp who will challenge his authority in vain, capable deputies to lend a helping hand, and also the chance to regularly explore the inside-left or central segment of the pitch...

  • How the Peaches suit the GOAT (and the philosophy at large):
DEFENSE

Andoni Zubizarreta:
as the goalkeeper of the Dream Team at Cruyff's Barcelona, Zubizarreta was technically accomplished, a forward-thinking organizer, adept at rushing off his zone and playing with high defensive lines, had a keen positional sense, was stylish yet efficient as a distributor of the ball, and also a noteworthy shot-stopper. Good fit for the approach, and possesses the skill set to consistently and directly feed the ball to Di Stéfano.



David Alaba: part of several aggressive teams that employed high lines over the years with Bayern (from Heynckes' Champions League winners to Flick's Champions League winners), one of the best ball-playing defenders of his generation, an intelligent presser and counter-presser, proficient at effortlessly transitioning from defense to attack, could shunt up and down the flank but also tuck in if need be. Good fit for the approach; and wrt. Di Stéfano, Alaba could stretch the field on the left, provide industry and movement and guile, and also link up at the edge of the inside-left zone of midfield.

Ruud Krol: the quintessential totaalvoetbal defender, utterly complete in a myriad aspects. Intuitive strategist and very active off the ball, very smooth on the ball, above-average recovery speed and speed in general, comfortable in wider areas, and possessed a sixth-sense for danger. Good fit for the approach, matches the totaalvoetballing principles of the GOAT (who was arguably the most complete footballer of them all) and can also use his passing range to bring Di Stéfano into the game.

To get a sense for how good he was as a central defender, Krol won the Guerin d'Oro for Player of the Year, had a more impressive performance index than the likes of Scirea and was rated as the best foreign player in Serie A from 1980 to 1982:



Virgil van Dijk:

“He’s special. The combination of skills is absolutely special. His mindset on top of that is really special. We knew when we signed him that we would get a really good player, but the package is so special. We had no idea (quite how good he would be), and that makes it really, really exciting.
Jürgen Klopp
The complete package, so to speak — one of the landmarks of defending at the peak of his powers. van Dijk is peculiar in the sense that he has next to no discernable weaknesses — simultaneously a rugged, immovable rock from a purely defensive standpoint and a cultured ball-player for possession oriented teams, excellent at anticipating and diagnosing situations before they develop but also possessing the explosiveness to make split-second interventions if he has to, wins the vast majority of aerial duels but also imperious on the ground, spectacular at manning islands of spaces on his own (centrally or through half spaces) but effective when asked to defend compactly in numbers, and rarely caught out position because of his footballing IQ. One of the most influential players for his side during set-pieces to boot (aided by athleticism and massive 6'5" frame), and has an keen sense for resorting to tactical fouls when his team is under tremendous pressure. Perfect central defender for this scheme, in our opinion; and his defensive nous, passing ability and mentality will be appreciated by a savant in Di Stéfano.

Dani Carvajal: A contemporary great at the fullback position, Carvajal was a consistent and indispensable presence for Real Madrid teams that won 5 European Cups while assisting as many goals in the competition as Luís Figo! Capable in all phases of the game; a tenacious fullback who boasted good technical skills, pace in offensive and defensive transitions, stamina to motor up-and-down as a genuine flank-dominator and present himself as an option for the ball, and the discipline to always mind his positional duties. Good fit for the approach, should offer himself as a a receiving option out wide (when Di Stéfano targets that part of the pitch) and could also ping the ball to the main man from advantageous positions.



MIDFIELD

Wim Jansen:
a no-nonsense, energetic, selfless, combative and versatile player who could operate as a defensive midfielder, defensive box-to-box midfielder, fullback or even central defender on occasion. Good fit for the approach because the famous organization and press of the Dutch national team was predicated on his characteristics as a tackler and stabilizer in midfield, along with his tactical intelligence and nose for covering spaces; and well suited to an archetypal water-carrier role in service of the leading light, Di Stéfano.



Bernd Schuster: a spielmacher with a wide range of stand-out qualities. Exquisite dribbler, innovative passer in short, medium and long ranges, dynamic in and out of possession, aggressive in the tackle, scored a multitude of goals over the course of his career, and athletically a force of nature who could powerfully traverse vast spaces. Good fit for the approach; and also, he forged a short-lived but wonderful alliance with Maradona at Barcelona, which should suit Di Stéfano — with Schuster being his trusted partner, buzzing in the vicinity...sometimes alongside and sometimes behind or ahead (the Blonde Engel to go with the Blond Arrow).


Ballon d'Or
1981: Bernd Schuster (2)
1982: Bernd Schuster (3)
1986: Bernd Schuster (3)
ATTACK

Raymond Kopa:
Le Napoléon du Football, one of the greatest attackers of all time. A creative genius, Kopa had a fantastic ability for dribbling at close quarters and a great intelligence on the pitch which made him a regular on the right wing for Real Madrid when they started to conquer Europe. Kopa once described himself as “the greatest collective individualist in French football”; he gave his team relief, the chance to breathe. France Football, which organizes the Ballon D'or award, wrote: "Technically, Kopa has perfected the game ... finesse, precision, passing. He masters the wonder of the dribble, by feints alone, the ball left there on the grass [before] starting up again, at just the right time. We have never seen [anyone] better at performing the one-two. ... Kopa does not merely pass to teammates randomly; he always puts them in the best position. His true place is to create, inspir[ing], guiding and serving the attack to perfection."

"He was a great player: strong, powerful, skillful. He was extraordinary, dribbling the ball all over the place."
Alfredo Di Stéfano
"Raymond Kopa was the first legend of French football."
Michel Platini
"There would be moments when we were overwhelmed, under pressure, and he would start to dribble. With him there on the wing, with the ball, we could recover."
José Santamaría
Plus, he was a calculating worker and a consummate team-player — those qualities make him a good fit for the approach and a high-quality ally for Di Stéfano as he takes on the opposition scourge...

Ballon d'Or
1956: 1. Stanley Matthews 2. Alfredo Di Stéfano 3. Raymond Kopa
1957: 1. Alfredo Di Stéfano 2. Billy Wright 3. Raymond Kopa and Duncan Edwards
1958: 1. Raymond Kopa 2. Helmut Rahn 3. Just Fontaine
1959: 1. Alfredo Di Stéfano 2. Raymond Kopa 3. John Charles
1960: 1. Luis Suárez 2. Ferenc Puskás 3. Uwe Seeler 4. Alfredo Di Stéfano 5. Lev Yashin 6. Raymond Kopa

Jupp Heynckes: in his footballing days, Heynckes struck a telepathic understand with the fabled controller, Günter Netzer. A wing forward by nature, he made significant contributions during the build-up stages, was a willing and tireless runner both on and off the ball, possessed an excellent turn of pace and rhythm and was a threat in the air, and had a memorable 3 year peak where he plundered 129 goals in 139 matches at club level for a goals-per-game ratio of 0.93. Good fit for the approach, and also a smashing fit with Di Stéfano given his movement, industriousness, tactical foresight and eye for goal.

As a player, Heynckes was a ruthless goalscorer who helped drive Gladbach to their most successful era. On the field, his once wavy hair danced as part of a deceptively powerful body that bagged roughly 0.7 goals per match over the course of 308 games. It’s a phenomenal record split between two spells from 1963 to 1978.

Carlos Tévez: an irrepressible force of nature whose infectious work rate spread throughout the team. A multi-faceted center forward, Tévez could function as the point of attack or in a twin-pronged strike force, and is one of the absolute best fits for the approach as he had an incredible drive to win and worked his bollocks off and even engaged in a fair bit of shithousery, offered plenty of verve up front, brought deeper players into the game and scored with aplomb (300+ career goals). Terrific fit with Di Stéfano as the latter would appreciate Tévez's footballing ability, movement, selflessness and workmanlike attitude and appetite for loose balls in his vicinity, tireless pressing capabilities and unflinching Argentinian “grinta”.

He scurries like a frenzied animal, like a pit bull chasing a rabbit; you can almost hear him panting through the television cameras. He plays with the furious intensity of a desperate man, in love with the fight, revelling in the trauma of the athlete. He runs and runs until his lungs scream in pain. Their howls are met and embraced by the writhing squalls of the crowd, who love him. For now, they thank G** that El Apache is their’s.
And finally, a bit on our lord and savior...

"Alfredo Di Stéfano was the greatest footballer of all time. He was, simultaneously, the anchor in defence, the playmaker in midfield, and the most dangerous marksman in attack."
Helenio Herrera
"I can say that Maradona could be worse than Pelé. But I emphasize Di Stéfano was better".
Diego Maradona
"Di Stéfano was simply the most intelligent football player I ever saw. If I had one player to choose, out of all of them, to save my life, he'd be the one."
Bobby Charlton
"The greatness of Di Stéfano was that, with him in your side, you had two players in every position."
Miguel Muñoz
No other player so effectively combined individual expertise with an all-embracing ability to organize a team to play to his command. He was "total soccer" personified before the term had been invented. Di Stéfano remains to many of us the Greatest Footballer of All Time."
Keir Radnedg
Ronaldo is playing extremely well at the moment, but it will be years before he reaches the level of a Pelé or Di Stéfano."
Johan Cruyff
WHY WE SHOULD WIN
  • Superior playmaking cast, and many ways to attack the opposition. Kopa, Schuster and Di Stéfano are among the most accomplished and celebrated playmakers of all time, and could create an endless number of chances for the others (as well as themselves, of course). Even the defenders boast considerable on-the-ball abilities, with Alaba and Carvajal alone contributing 37 assists in the Champions League (trailing only Dani Alves and Marcelo for fullbacks in the Champions League era). All in all, the team can create with cheeky lofted passes, through balls, combination play, crosses, set pieces, et cetera.
  • Superior goal threat, with close to 1500 goals for the Front 5. With 153 goals, Schuster is the weakest goal-scorer from that lot. Heynckes scored 328 goals (with a 3 year peak of 130+ goals, and a Bundesliga ratio that trails only G. Müller and Lewandowski), Kopa scored 159 goals, Tévez scored 321 goals and Di Stéfano scored 510 goals (with his Madrid record standing for 45 years and his European Cup record standing for a similar amount of time).
  • Every one is a good systemic and tactical fit, the team is balanced from top to bottom and left to right, and every channel of the pitch and every blade of grass will be covered. From the totaalvoetbaling defensive tandem of Krol and van Dijk (both of whom finished in the Ballon Do'Or Top 3) to the livewires up front, there are zero slackers anywhere (in or out of possession). To a man, they put in the requisite work and were mindful of their individual duties within the overarching framework.
  • A wealth of big game experience with close to 25 titles in the European Cup alone, aside from other big club games and international tournaments.
  • Di Stéfano's near-unparalleled ability to organize the game in his favor. Only a select few strategists, like Beckenbauer or Cruyff, can compare with him — and his magisterial aura gives the team a favorable edge, and that effect will be more pronounced in the presence of his vaunted co-conspirator Raymond Kopa.
 
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BIG DUNK

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  • I feel Davids-Tardelli will disrupt Di Stefano’s playmaking and control more than Schuster-Jansen will disrupt Pirlo’s influence. Moreover, I think Davids-Tardelli are the perfect box-to-box midfield partners for Pirlo. Pirlo is built for that press-resistant playstyle.
  • I have admired G_Eleg/Invictus’ use of Heynckes this draft (on paper usually the most dangerous goalscorer on the pitch, in terms of movement and positioning) but he is up against Zanetti (one of the most complete fullbacks) and Bergomi (Italy’s finest right sided defender of all time for cover).
  • I think Baresi-Bergomi is the ultimate all-time Serie A libero-stopper combo. With both teams boasting world class fluidity and movement in their attacks, the utmost reading/covering/interceptions/positioning is required. IMO, Baresi-Bergomi's defensive ability > Krol’s+Virgil van Dijk’s.
  • I feel Gio's XI offers more on the wings: both Davids and Tardelli are comfortable outwide, I prefer the two-way nature of Gio’s fullbacks more, Kopa was more of an inside-forward than an outside right forward giving you true width in a 4-3-3 (Kopa preferring the congested areas that Di Stefano and Schuster will want to work in), Heynckes was an off-ball menace, thus, a lot more on-ball support would be required from Alaba-Carvajal. Both Signori and Mbappe are lethal from the wings (with and without the ball). The potential of Mbappe in that classic Serie A/Italian counter-attack style is optimised.
  • Both managers not employing natural number 9's, instead Mancini and Tevez are wonderfully complementary forwards for their respective attacks. Both highly skilled and unpredictable, Tevez superior in workrate and power, while Mancini is the superior playmaker.
  • G_Eleg/Invictus will want this game to be chaotic and high-tempo, but I feel Gio has the defensive personnel, shape and discipline to slow down the tempo, then hitting them on the counter with the elite vertical delivery, pace and skill it requires.
 
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TheReligion

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@Gio

Why Mbappe here? Totally spoils the theme!

You’re still going to get my vote though as I love literally everything else.
 

Gio

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All the best @General_Elegancia and @Invictus

  • Superior playmaking cast, and many ways to attack the opposition. Kopa, Schuster and Di Stéfano are among the most accomplished and celebrated playmakers of all time, and could create an endless number of chances for the others (as well as themselves, of course). Even the defenders boast considerable on-the-ball abilities, with Alaba and Carvajal alone contributing 37 assists in the Champions League (trailing only Dani Alves and Marcelo for fullbacks in the Champions League era). All in all, the team can create with cheeky lofted passes, through balls, combination play, crosses, set pieces, et cetera.
  • Superior goal threat, with close to 1500 goals for the Front 5. With 153 goals, Schuster is the weakest goal-scorer from that lot. Heynckes scored 328 goals (with a 3 year peak of 130+ goals, and a Bundesliga ratio that trails only G. Müller and Lewandowski), Kopa scored 159 goals, Tévez scored 321 goals and Di Stéfano scored 510 goals (with his Madrid record standing for 45 years and his European Cup record standing for a similar amount of time).
  • Every one is a good systemic and tactical fit, the team is balanced from top to bottom and left to right, and every channel of the pitch and every blade of grass will be covered. From the totaalvoetbaling defensive tandem of Krol and van Dijk (both of whom finished in the Ballon Do'Or Top 3) to the livewires up front, there are zero slackers anywhere (in or out of possession). To a man, they put in the requisite work and were mindful of their individual duties within the overarching framework.
I'm not sure these 3 things add up.

Totalling up the goal threat is one thing but those players scored those goals with other players stretching the play in attack and winning the ball back in midfield. Did you consider securing Gento in the reinforcement round instead of Kopa? Gento's touchline-hugging role was so crucial to Real's success, where he was the one constant through their first 6 European Cup victories. He was the one who stretched the field, was primarily about servicing others rather than scoring himself, and created space for the goats inside him. Heynckes is a good fit and provides some of that pace, but as you've said yourself his mind is on scoring goals, so he too will be making those inward runs making the pitch smaller.

Totalling up the creative threat doesn't necessarily add up either. The challenge here is accommodating 3 no10s and especially when 2 of them have egos the size of Gento's trophy cabinet. Di Stefano has to be the main man and I'm not convinced Schuster will necessarily defer to him. Now obviously Schuster and Maradona performed well together, but Maradona was a different stylistic beast to ADS at that stage of his career. But Di Stefano's failure to connect with Didi would be a concern as he is quite positionally similar, both preferring those RCM channels. If I was choosing another 10 to play with Di Stefano, it would likely be one with a bit less ego because the Don wasn't for budging:

Di Stefano said:
The idea was that Kopa would play at centre-forward and I would play inside right. We tried it in training but it came out all wrong. I didn't care, I just went in the middle anyway.
And if Di Stefano asks Schuster to defer to him, well there will be only one answer to that:


Kopa meanwhile was best centrally and - while he performed well for Real in the inside-right role - I wouldn't say it was his optimal position. And here he is wide right in a front 3 which pulls him wider than he'd like. If you had a top tier attacking right back I could perhaps see it working fairly well (though I still think the overlap with Di Stefano and Schuster is a touch cluttered) but with Carvajal the threat is limited (probably prefer Jardine's attacking ability here personally speaking). Overall the attack looks relatively narrow and is up against a rock-solid backline of Baresi, Bergomi, Zanetti and Schnellinger.
 

General_Elegancia

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All the best @General_Elegancia and @Invictus


I'm not sure these 3 things add up.

Totalling up the goal threat is one thing but those players scored those goals with other players stretching the play in attack and winning the ball back in midfield. Did you consider securing Gento in the reinforcement round instead of Kopa? Gento's touchline-hugging role was so crucial to Real's success, where he was the one constant through their first 6 European Cup victories. He was the one who stretched the field, was primarily about servicing others rather than scoring himself, and created space for the goats inside him. Heynckes is a good fit and provides some of that pace, but as you've said yourself his mind is on scoring goals, so he too will be making those inward runs making the pitch smaller.

Totalling up the creative threat doesn't necessarily add up either. The challenge here is accommodating 3 no10s and especially when 2 of them have egos the size of Gento's trophy cabinet. Di Stefano has to be the main man and I'm not convinced Schuster will necessarily defer to him. Now obviously Schuster and Maradona performed well together, but Maradona was a different stylistic beast to ADS at that stage of his career. But Di Stefano's failure to connect with Didi would be a concern as he is quite positionally similar, both preferring those RCM channels. If I was choosing another 10 to play with Di Stefano, it would likely be one with a bit less ego because the Don wasn't for budging:



:
Both play different positions in this game. Di Stefano operates higher as more of a left-attacking midfielder, probably in the left zone of the pitch. He is more attacking-minded than Schuster in this game and in real life. Di Stefano will play more on the left and has the freedom to do both phases in the attacking and defensive phases in the left zone. He can dictate the game from that position as I've mentioned before. He will play short passing with other players, one two, drop deep for link-up play, use his dribbling ability to unlock your stubborn defense, use clever and intelligent movements to provoke opponents, and create spaces both vertical and horizontal for other teammates.

Schuster will play as more of a creative 8 in this game, as I use more of a younger and dynamic 1980 version of him. I think this version of Schuster is very suited to the modern 4-3-3 system as a right-central midfielder, he had an enormous work rate, tenacity, and stamina to cover the flanks, and worked his ass for that West Germany team. He was also a very creative player who had great passing skills all short, medium and long passing, a very dynamic player both on and off the ball and very aggressive and never afraid to challenge and tackle. IMO, he suits that role(right central midfielder) in my team. Schuster and Di Stefano also had excellent work rates, which was very important in 4-3-3, especially in midfielders. The way more I watch Schuster, I don't think that young Schuster is a kind of number 10 player, especially in terms of positioning on the pitch, he was more of a creative b2b or right central midfielder.

I even think this is an advantage when you face some goat-caliber defense. You couldn't play timidly or bluntly like passing in U-Shape or making 300 passes without creativity or target to unlock your defense. That's one of the reasons why Manchester City is the best team in EPL in terms of unlocking tight-defense or low block, they have a lot of creativities from a lot of sources in KDB, Cancelo, Bernado, etc. Our team is a very creative team and the best of our creative sources are our three 10s, all of them in real life mastered all types of passes like through ball, crossing, short passing, one-two, lob-passes and unpredictable balls, which are very important when you face a team that has an amazing defensive unit.

On the other side, Di Stefano didn't appreciate someone who was lazy and didn't run his ass for the team, which was a very opposite type of Bernd Schuster who always worked hard in the defensive phase both pressing and tackling/fighting for the ball back.
 
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Invictus

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I'll just say my bit and keep clear of this thread, out of respect for @General_Elegancia and @Gio. Don't want to harshly criticize the opposition (even though there's plenty to criticize) or get drawn into inane arguments that are repeated all to often (depending on the poster's agenda in specific situations).

The old Di Stéfano ego nugget has predictably reared its head for the billionth time. Completely hackneyed and played out by this point if we're being honest, for the most part because he didn't mesh with Didi (for reasons that went above and beyond their respective playmaking capacities). What grates is the lack of consistency, when here's the Di Stéfano + Schuster midfield combo steamrolling a draft final...

MADN Draft Final: P-nut vs GSTQ

Yet it's an overwhelmingly problematic pairing now! :)
Kopa meanwhile was best centrally and - while he performed well for Real in the inside-right role - I wouldn't say it was his optimal position.
He didn't just perform well, he regularly finished on the Ballon D'or podium (for several seasons) and routinely won European Cups. You don't have to take our opinion on him being excellent there; Transfermarkt, to cite just one source, goes as far as to list it as his primary position...



In the interest of balance, was right center-back in a 4-Man defensive line Bergomi's optimal role, was playing behind a wide forward (where he'll be asked to ceaselessly shunt up and down the length of flank to shore things up) Schnellinger's optimal role, was False 9 Mancini's optimal role when he wasn't rigorously tested there in real life, and so forth for some others?

Anyway, that's it from me; will let the boss handle the rest of this match. Bye-bye!
 

TheReligion

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I also struggle with the overrating of VVD especially in a draft like this. In my opinion he looks very out of place in a key position.

It’s highlighted even more when you have Baresi and Bergomi as his opposite numbers.
 

Gio

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I'll just say my bit and keep clear of this thread, out of respect for @General_Elegancia and @Gio. Don't want to harshly criticize the opposition (even though there's plenty to criticize) or get drawn into inane arguments that are repeated all to often (depending on the poster's agenda in specific situations).

The old Di Stéfano ego nugget has predictably reared its head for the billionth time. Completely hackneyed and played out by this point if we're being honest, for the most part because he didn't mesh with Didi (for reasons that went above and beyond their respective playmaking capacities). What grates is the lack of consistency, when here's the Di Stéfano + Schuster midfield combo steamrolling a draft final...

MADN Draft Final: P-nut vs GSTQ

Yet it's an overwhelmingly problematic pairing now! :)
Not seeing the inconsistency tbh. That team is one of the last you’d ever accuse of lacking width - it’s got two of the most impressive flanks in Facchetti / young Cristiano and Lahm / Best you could ever envisage. There’s a clear difference there with both the attacking impact provided by the full backs (compared to Alaba and Carvajal) and the genuine width offered between Best and Kopa. Hence why I posed the Gento reinforcement question.
You don't have to take our opinion on him being excellent there; Transfermarkt, to cite just one source, goes as far as to list it as his primary position...

Transfermarkt’s positional data from the 1950s is not particularly comprehensive. I clicked on Kopa’s profile and it showed the position for a total of 6 games from his entire career. From what I’ve seen peak Kopa was the one who dictated centrally for France. But I’m not questioning his quality, but suggesting that a Gento winger type is more important in creating space for not one but three no10s. Even with two of them I’d still want play stretching on both flanks. At this stage of the draft it’s more about fine-tuning rather than major tactical issues, but the 3 no10s of this mentality poses a question for me.

In the interest of balance, was right center-back in a 4-Man defensive line Bergomi's optimal role,
Yes. It’s pretty much bang on in my view, with him covering across when fellow Inter legend Zanetti pushes forward.

was playing behind a wide forward (where he'll be asked to ceaselessly shunt up and down the length of flank to shore things up) Schnellinger's optimal role
Granted I don’t think Schnellinger is going to hit the bye line and cross it onto Mancini’s noggin very often. But Signori can provide the crosses and the goals from that side of the park. Worth recognising that Schnellinger won’t be forced wide very often up against Kopa in any case, so it arguably becomes a moot point.

was False 9 Mancini's optimal role when he wasn't rigorously tested there in real life, and so forth for some others?
Oh absolutely, Mancini would be in his element in this role, calling on his experience and skillset from his Serie A days where he was used as line leader, as second striker and in the classic trequartista 10 role.
 

General_Elegancia

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  • I feel Davids-Tardelli will disrupt Di Stefano’s playmaking and control more than Schuster-Jansen will disrupt Pirlo’s influence. Moreover, I think Davids-Tardelli are the perfect box-to-box midfield partners for Pirlo. Pirlo is built for that press-resistant playstyle.
Before I go to bed, I will answer this point.

It's more of a collective job not only Schuster and Jansen will do this hard job to contain the Italian maestro(one of my favorite players). Our team will use a lot of pressing strategies to make Pirlo's life difficult. Our midfielders were known for their work rates, stamina, and tenacity, which suits very well with pressing tactics. This strategy will make Andrea Pirlo finish with a less accurate/percentage than his regular form. An extra point will be Schuster/Di Stefano constantly switching minds Andrea Pirlo for not easy to get the ball from his teammates. Tevez is a hardworking striker and player, he will probably help in this phase a lot of times too. And then, If he makes some long passes, then Van Dijk, Krol and Wim or anyone in the backline will intercept or use heading clearances. Krol and VVD, both are very intelligent players, read the game well and have impressive heading skills/clearances.


There are some matches where using counter-pressing/ against Pirlo made him really less effective than he usually was. Like Bayern vs Juventus in both legs in 2013 or Spain vs Italy in the final in 2012. This job( take Pirlo out of the game) will be done collectively not as an individual job. The midfield structures were also similar with 2 box to box workhorses pairing with Pirlo and very strong backlines unit, probably not the same due to a lot of differences in terms of tactical approaches.

They could legitimately complain about their lack of service – Bayern's pressing was superb, and playmaker Andrea Pirlo finished with his lowest pass completion in a Juve shirt. "Bayern kept the tempo very high and we struggled to emerge with the ball, admitted Giorgio Chiellini

The Guardian 2013
His presence was going to be particularly useful against Juventus, who are built around deep-lying playmaker Andrea Pirlo. When teams are able to keep Pirlo's touches down and deny him time on the ball, they're generally successful. When Pirlo gets to run the show, Juventus get the results they want. That's why Bayern Munich blog Bavarian Football Works says that Thomas Müller and Mario Mandžukić will both have to pressure Pirlo in Kroos' absence.

SB Nation
 
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Šjor Bepo

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Van Dijk is second best CB on the pitch and credit to General Invi for sticking to him even though they knew in advance he isnt rated by some of the voters.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Fantastic team from G/I and a great match for gio team as well, combo of Di Stefano and Tevez is probably the worst possible choice for Pirlo and gio really needed to upgrade at least one out of Mancini and Signori.
 

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The reason for upgrading with Tardelli wasn't just about maximising the blend in midfield, it was also to further the Serie A theme. To represent the great Juventus outfit of the 1970s and 1980s and the Italian World Cup winners of 1982. And while we have had a lot of talk about one of the two GOATs on the park, it's worth now taking a look at how the team is built around our GOAT, Franco Baresi:



AC Milan 1977-97
719 apps - 6 Serie A - 3 European Cup​

It is hardly controversial to call Baresi the most complete – and perhaps even the best – defender of all time. The greatest attacking players have the ability to manufacture time, a combination of vision and first touch affording them vital fractions of a second to compose play. If they created time, Baresi did the opposite. Such was the Italian’s masterful reading of the game, he would be first to every through ball, snuffing out danger like a psychic fireman.

“A lot of the time, he would know what the attacker was going to do before they knew themselves,” Ruud Gullit once said of his former teammate. There is no exaggeration there for effect. Baresi had a greater anticipation and understanding of attacking strategies than perhaps any other defender in the game’s history.

Despite that defensive excellence, Baresi’s role was at least two-fold. Within seconds of winning back the ball, he would be looking forward. Next came either the clipped pass into feet, or the run forward out of defence. With his shirt untucked over inexplicably short shorts, Baresi played the part of playmaker with consummate ease.

It would be foolish to think that Baresi was an effortlessly polished player, however, for you don’t survive and thrive in Serie A’s 1980s without being able to handle yourself. The word ‘hard’ has become increasingly synonymous with obvious displays of aggression, but Baresi’s toughness was more understated, a latent threat. In the Milan derby of 1989, Baresi played for over an hour with a broken arm after getting a kick from Jurgen Klinsmann, Milan’s captain only revealing the true extent of his pain after the final whistle. After keeping a clean sheet, of course.

Not content with being one of the greatest defenders, Baresi’s name has also become a byword for loyalty, the ultimate one-club man. Milan may have become the greatest team in the world under his captaincy, but he twice stayed after relegation to help the Rossoneri rebuild. The second of those Serie B campaigns came after Baresi was a (non-playing) member of Italy’s World Cup-winning squad of 1982, with the defender named Milan captain at the age of 22. Fifteen years later, as Baresi retired, he had won five Serie A titles, three European Cups and nine other domestic honours. Black, white and red all over.

Milan’s three greatest servants run like the aorta through the club’s modern history: Gianni Rivera, Franco Baresi, Paolo Maldini. Between them, these three players spanned a 49-year period between 1960 and 2009. Not only does that account for almost half the club’s lifespan, but it covers 38 of their 47 major trophies.
If this trio are Milan’s lifeblood, there is no doubt who belongs in the centre spot on the podium. In the eyes of the Milanese, there is only one. ‘There is only one captain, Baresi,’ is the banner still passed across the San Siro’s Curva Sud. He was, is, and always will be Milan’s greatest: Il Capitano.

Marcel Desailly said:
Franco Baresi is my idol. The way he ran his back-line, what a player. You can’t begin to imagine to what a high level he took the art of defending. Impeccable.
Paolo Maldini said:
He was special. The way he played on the field was an example for everybody. For me, he was the role model. He was a reference.
Zico said:
“The consummate libero, capable of doing whatever he wanted with the ball whether he was defending or attacking.
 
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Gio

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gio really needed to upgrade at least one out of Mancini and Signori.
I don't really agree looking at either (a) thematics or (b) their quality.

Going heavy at the back and watertight in midfield is building to the strengths of what Serie A is all about. Mancini might not be quite as golden as Maradona/Platini/Baggio, but he was a fully fledged Serie A legend in his own right. In the OP Krol rightly gets his dues for his two great seasons in Serie A, and that helps to put into context just how impressive Mancini's ratings in Serie A are by the same Italian media:
  • 1st ranked second striker in 1986/87, 1990/91, 1992/93 and 1996/97
  • 2nd ranked second striker in 1981/82 and 1987/88.
This is a list of the guys he'd have been competing with: Zico, Gullit, Elkjaer, Conti, Baggio, Bergkamp, Del Piero.

A bit like Schuster on the other side, I do think his legacy is somewhat tarnished by falling out with two Italian NT coaches in Bearzot and Sacchi, which left him in the wilderness for many of his best years. But he still proved himself year after year in the toughest league in the history of the game. Up against defensive talent of the calibre of Milan's Baresi, Maldini, Rijkaard and Desailly, of Inter's Bergomi, Passarella and Matthaus, Juve's Scirea, Gentile and Kohler, and even cutting it against the new generation of Nesta and Cannavaro. That's almost two decades worth of quality creating chances against many of the best the game has seen.

And from that lot if I had to pick out Mancini's most celebrated season, it was his leading Sampdoria to a highly unlikely Serie A title in 1990/91. That was when the league was at its absolute zenith, when Sacchi's Milan and Trap's Inter were at or around the peak of their powers, when Roma were edged out by Inter in the UEFA Cup final, when Mancini was the star forward in amongst an array of attacking talent, when the league produced perhaps the most stacked goal of the season competition ever.


(Mancini has his own nomination in there of course)

Admittedly he's got a tough gig here of course against Van Dijk and Krol who I both rate. But he's scored and created against similarly capable (and even better) defenders over the years, and in fact has a couple against Krol in the early 1980s:


 

Šjor Bepo

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I don't really agree looking at either (a) thematics or (b) their quality.

Going heavy at the back and watertight in midfield is building to the strengths of what Serie A is all about. Mancini might not be quite as golden as Maradona/Platini/Baggio, but he was a fully fledged Serie A legend in his own right. In the OP Krol rightly gets his dues for his two great seasons in Serie A, and that helps to put into context just how impressive Mancini's ratings in Serie A are by the same Italian media:
  • 1st ranked second striker in 1986/87, 1990/91, 1992/93 and 1996/97
  • 2nd ranked second striker in 1981/82 and 1987/88.
This is a list of the guys he'd have been competing with: Zico, Gullit, Elkjaer, Conti, Baggio, Bergkamp, Del Piero.

A bit like Schuster on the other side, I do think his legacy is somewhat tarnished by falling out with two Italian NT coaches in Bearzot and Sacchi, which left him in the wilderness for many of his best years. But he still proved himself year after year in the toughest league in the history of the game. Up against defensive talent of the calibre of Milan's Baresi, Maldini, Rijkaard and Desailly, of Inter's Bergomi, Passarella and Matthaus, Juve's Scirea, Gentile and Kohler, and even cutting it against the new generation of Nesta and Cannavaro. That's almost two decades worth of quality creating chances against many of the best the game has seen.

And from that lot if I had to pick out Mancini's most celebrated season, it was his leading Sampdoria to a highly unlikely Serie A title in 1990/91. That was when the league was at its absolute zenith, when Sacchi's Milan and Trap's Inter were at or around the peak of their powers, when Roma were edged out by Inter in the UEFA Cup final, when Mancini was the star forward in amongst an array of attacking talent, when the league produced perhaps the most stacked goal of the season competition ever.


(Mancini has his own nomination in there of course)

Admittedly he's got a tough gig here of course against Van Dijk and Krol who I both rate. But he's scored and created against similarly capable (and even better) defenders over the years, and in fact has a couple against Krol in the early 1980s:


Its not just the quality though, i get the theme but considering everything i think one should have been upgraded.
Both are dancing on the edge of the tactical suitability, personally i think they are leaning more towards the good side as i said in your previous game against me but when you combine that with their quality it does leave you a bit empty considering the quality on other parts of the pitch. Love and rate both, specially Beppe and if they were both in their best position i wouldnt say a word but when its a tight game against a great opponent those little minor things get more attention.
 

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Its not just the quality though, i get the theme but considering everything i think one should have been upgraded.
Both are dancing on the edge of the tactical suitability, personally i think they are leaning more towards the good side as i said in your previous game against me but when you combine that with their quality it does leave you a bit empty considering the quality on other parts of the pitch. Love and rate both, specially Beppe and if they were both in their best position i wouldnt say a word but when its a tight game against a great opponent those little minor things get more attention.
Mancini is in his best position, I really can't see any argument against his deployment as a false 9 - tactically, technically, mentally - all checks out.

Signori looks fine for me - Mancini dropping into the false 9 means he can cut into the central space. Slightly different if Signori was expecting to play solely as a left winger, or as a dreaded left-midfielder drone in a Sacchi 4-4-2. But he's played this role for club and country and performed really well. Here are two great examples operating off the left in a fluid front 3 (could easily see him and Mbappe interchange on the counter here):





Or ripping Lippi's Juve to shreds the following year, inflicting their biggest defeat in the last 3 decades:




 

Šjor Bepo

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Mancini is in his best position, I really can't see any argument against his deployment as a false 9 - tactically, technically, mentally - all checks out.

Signori looks fine for me - Mancini dropping into the false 9 means he can cut into the central space. Slightly different if Signori was expecting to play solely as a left winger, or as a dreaded left-midfielder drone in a Sacchi 4-4-2. But he's played this role for club and country and performed really well. Here are two great examples operating off the left in a fluid front 3 (could easily see him and Mbappe interchange on the counter here):





Or ripping Lippi's Juve to shreds the following year, inflicting their biggest defeat in the last 3 decades:




Mancini fits the role but he never played it, not a problem but when you nit pick its worth a mention. But i agree, its less of an issue then Beppe.
Beppe i watched a lot, probably not mentioned games but whenever i watched him he was a SS that liked to drift to the left side, not the other way around. Looking at this team sheet, there is a big possibility Fuser actually played out wide as he usually did and Beppe was floating behind Casiraghi.

Anyways thats it for me, this two lazy gits should fight their own battle!
 

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Both Tardelli and Van Dijk are very soft upgrades.

I do rate both defences are better than the attack facing them, which are both underwhelming as a unit. So the threat Di Stefano provides will probably be the edge between the teams.
 

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Was quite a close call for me.

Tardelli-Davids seems great against Di Stefano-Schuster. And even with Pirlo as the DLP, the defense is so strong to contain surges from midfield quite well.

Don't like GE's defense all that much. Dont like Gio's attack all the much for a semis match up, particularly Mancini at this stage. So those two things even out.

My vote came down to the most crucial piece of the puzzle of one team. Without Pirlo, Gio's setup loses its charm. And I simply can't see Pirlo having a significant influence on this game with Di Stefano and Tevez hovering around him.

Thought it would take something special to beat that Pirlo team. In all honesty, GE's team is not that special. Can't really fully feel the synergy. The lack of a orthodox genuine winger stands out in particular. But they get lucky with Di Stefano and grab my vote.
 

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I genuinely think Edgar's team was better than both these teams. Such a shame it doesn't reach the final. Thought it would be Gio vs Edgar in the final with the latter winning.
 

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@Gio
What were your reasons for choosing a false 9 setup over a diamond with Mancini/Signori/Mbappe?
 

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@Gio
What were your reasons for choosing a false 9 setup over a diamond with Mancini/Signori/Mbappe?
In practice I don't think there's a big difference between the two shapes (i.e. Mancini drops and Mbappe and Signori move inside). But given GE/Invictus' strength through the centre in Krol and Van Dijk, I wanted to get my forwards up against their full-backs. The idea was that Signori would cause Carvajal problems, while Mbappe's track record against Alaba was exceptional, with 6 goals in 620 minutes. Equally Mbappe's record against Carvajal was also impressive (3 goals in their last 2.5 games together) so when he and Signori swapped, he could go directly head-to-head with a guy who he so memorably turned inside-out in their CL tie last year. Playing Mancini there ensured he occupied the CBs so they were less able to cover their FBs.
 

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For Van Dijk and Krol context, I think both of them would dovetail well in a high-line or combative system. Both are recognized as very fast defenders( in his prime), have great ability to cover offensive fullbacks, great distribution from the back, vocal presences and have real experienced to play in a high-line system. Krol had played under the very innovative managers in Happel and Michels and VVD has done that under Klopp for several years.

On the pitch, Van Dijk is very aggressive when it comes in term of aerial battle, he always comes to battle with opponents' players. Van Dijk has over 70 percent of winning the aerial battle. So, I suspect he will do well in this game, especially in term of intercepting long and high balls from Andrea Pirlo.

Although Krol played as a sweeper in his later career, his style of playing was different from VVD. Krol was a player who liked to challenge and was never afraid to tackle or commit fouls against anyone else. Krol had the highest number of tackle in World Cup 1978, he averaged 3.7 tackles/ per-game in that tournament. So, on the ground, the more aggressive Krol will challenge or duel with Gio’s attackers( 1 on 1)more than Van Dijk in this game.

Having VVD at the backline also mean Krol has more freedom to go forward sometimes. I think in this system, Krol and VvD will dovetail well.
 
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Synco

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In practice I don't think there's a big difference between the two shapes (i.e. Mancini drops and Mbappe and Signori move inside). But given GE/Invictus' strength through the centre in Krol and Van Dijk, I wanted to get my forwards up against their full-backs. The idea was that Signori would cause Carvajal problems, while Mbappe's track record against Alaba was exceptional, with 6 goals in 620 minutes. Equally Mbappe's record against Carvajal was also impressive (3 goals in their last 2.5 games together) so when he and Signori swapped, he could go directly head-to-head with a guy who he so memorably turned inside-out in their CL tie last year. Playing Mancini there ensured he occupied the CBs so they were less able to cover their FBs.
This application of Mbappe/Signori makes sense (edit: especially Carvajal is not a very stable defender, imo). I see Signori's suitability was contested, but the counterargument mostly seemed to be about what he didn't do historically, not so much what he'd be (un)able to do in different tactics. I reckon he'll be fine.

So the question is if Mancini is the right guy to knit the front three together in the center. It generally seems to be accepted in here. I'd have zero questions about such a 10-ish F9 in a fluid, possession-heavy offense with many interchanging players (including from midfield). Bit unsure about this more traditional setup, especially the ability to occupy the CBs when the others are wide (as you put it). Krol/VVD are good at marking a CF out of the game, so maybe a more forceful CF presence would be necessary.

As a side note, I'm not really convinced by using goal stats from games where two players happened to share the pitch. I think they need lots of context to say something.
For Van Dijk and Krol context, I think both of them would dovetail well in high-line or combative system.
Agree there, I'm generally in the pro-VVD camp (as evidenced by recent draft picks).
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow

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But i agree, its less of an issue then Beppe.
Beppe i watched a lot, probably not mentioned games but whenever i watched him he was a SS that liked to drift to the left side, not the other way around. Looking at this team sheet, there is a big possibility Fuser actually played out wide as he usually did and Beppe was floating behind Casiraghi.
Casiraghi did offer a lot of back to goal play which fit well into Signori making runs from behind, that I don't see Mancini offering. Having said that, that front 3 was very fluid, esp the dynamics between Signori and Casiraghi was constantly interchanging both positionally and tactically, so I don't see Signori as in a bad fit in his role here. He's still capable on getting on end of Mancini's through balls and has the pace and movement to trouble defenders. Agree on not being a ideal fit, but far from dysfunctional either.
 

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Casiraghi did offer a lot of back to goal play which fit well into Signori making runs from behind, that I don't see Mancini offering. Having said that, that front 3 was very fluid, esp the dynamics between Signori and Casiraghi was constantly interchanging both positionally and tactically, so I don't see Signori as in a bad fit in his role here. He's still capable on getting on end of Mancini's through balls and has the pace and movement to trouble defenders. Agree on not being a ideal fit, but far from dysfunctional either.
Agree with that.
Was quite a close call for me.

Tardelli-Davids seems great against Di Stefano-Schuster. And even with Pirlo as the DLP, the defense is so strong to contain surges from midfield quite well.

Don't like GE's defense all that much. Dont like Gio's attack all the much for a semis match up, particularly Mancini at this stage. So those two things even out.

My vote came down to the most crucial piece of the puzzle of one team. Without Pirlo, Gio's setup loses its charm. And I simply can't see Pirlo having a significant influence on this game with Di Stefano and Tevez hovering around him.

Thought it would take something special to beat that Pirlo team. In all honesty, GE's team is not that special. Can't really fully feel the synergy. The lack of a orthodox genuine winger stands out in particular. But they get lucky with Di Stefano and grab my vote.
And that as overall view. Although in terms of vote I slightly prefer Gio's midfield core and front three as IMO Mbappe/Signori are more likely to score against those fullbacks compared to a backline consisting of Baresi, Zanetti and Bergomi. Although AdS presence makes the gap literally non existent and down to preference.
 

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I feel the core of Julio Cesar, Baresi, Bergomi, Pirlo and Davids should have been enough to see @Gio home here. Even the full backs offered more with the likes of Zanetti.

That said I don’t like Mbappe in this side and feel the forward set up would have been better with an out and out wide player in that role. Mbappe also doesn’t fit the theme.

Well done @General_Elegancia and @Invictus!

Id consider upgrading the defence before the next game though.
 

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Great game @Gio

You have a god-level backline. I like your team, especially considering you made a Serie A theme, which makes me even love your team more.
In this draft, you have built a perfect platform for Pirlo to shine brightest as much as he can. Since I think Tardelli and Davids are perfect players for this criteria.
 
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General_Elegancia

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I feel the core of Julio Cesar, Baresi, Bergomi, Pirlo and Davids should have been enough to see @Gio home here. Even the full backs offered more with the likes of Zanetti.

That said I don’t like Mbappe in this side and feel the forward set up would have been better with an out and out wide player in that role. Mbappe also doesn’t fit the theme.

Well done @General_Elegancia and @Invictus!

Id consider upgrading the defence before the next game though.
Thanks, mate

I will listen to your advice. :)