NBA 2019-2020

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
42,133
Location
CA
... but LeBron is the best player in the league right now, yes? Probably not the best regular season player, but in the playoffs, there's no one else I'd rather have on my team than him. Even at the ripe age of 37 next playoffs.

Giannis and Harden have broken records left and right, dominating the regular season like few others. Still, when push comes to shove, grandpa James knows what it's all about.
Durant before his injury last year and Kawhi are the only players who can compare with LeBron on playoffs. LeBron is still the best.

Regular season does not matter.
 

RobinLFC

Cries when Liverpool doesn't get praised
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
13,489
Location
Belgium
Supports
Liverpool
Durant before his injury last year and Kawhi are the only players who can compare with LeBron on playoffs. LeBron is still the best.

Regular season does not matter.
Of course it does. Otherwise Robert Horry would be a top 10 player of all-time.
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
8,253
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
Can't compare that since LeBron played in an era where superstars teamed up to win rings. Garnett wouldn't have won one if he stayed at the Timberwolves, neither would Pierce. Wade wouldn't have won another after 2006 if LeBron didn't join him. Durant didn't even try to win one on his own so joined literally the best team ever to beat LeBron. So who does that leave - Westbrook, Harden, Giannis, ...? Yep, no titles. The only one is Leonard but he won one of his while LeBron was out injured.

MJ was better than the other superstars who stayed at their own team hence he made them winless. If they teamed up like they do know there's no way to know they wouldn't have beaten Jordan collectively.
The whole superstars teaming up in their prime was started by LeBron in the first place.

Ray and KG were just about out of their prime before joining Pierce and it's a stretch to call him a superstar at that point of his career. His reputation skyrocketed from 1 Championship win.

And since when was LeBron injured when Spurs won? Unless you're calling the Lakers missing the playoffs as LeBron being injured.
 

RobinLFC

Cries when Liverpool doesn't get praised
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
13,489
Location
Belgium
Supports
Liverpool
The whole superstars teaming up in their prime was started by LeBron in the first place.

Ray and KG were just about out of their prime before joining Pierce and it's a stretch to call him a superstar at that point of his career. His reputation skyrocketed from 1 Championship win.

And since when was LeBron injured when Spurs won? Unless you're calling the Lakers missing the playoffs as LeBron being injured.
Yeah I was talking about Kawhi winning one last year, not when he was with the Spurs (and arguably wasn't even a superstar back then anyway but just a good cog in a great system who had a very good Finals series). There's no way the Lakers miss the playoffs last year if LeBron doesn't go down injured.

I'm not even a LeBron fan and neither am I saying that he's the GOAT. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I just can't stand people (primarily those who watched Jordan when they were young and are all nostalgic now) who simpy dismiss the whole argument and use empty arguments like "Jordan embodied greatness". As basketball players, in terms of stats, skills, achievements, ... there is most definitely a debate to be had right now. That's all I'm advocating for here, as I have no problem with people going for Jordan (I think I still do too at the moment but it can still shift LeBron's way obviously).
 

Zen

Full Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
11,263
... but LeBron is the best player in the league right now, yes? Probably not the best regular season player, but in the playoffs, there's no one else I'd rather have on my team than him. Even at the ripe age of 37 next playoffs.

Giannis and Harden have broken records left and right, dominating the regular season like few others. Still, when push comes to shove, grandpa James knows what it's all about.

35+1 = 37?
 

Skåre Willoch

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
2,637
35+1 = 37?
He turns 36 in december. It might be a stretch that the playoffs will last until december next season, but when is the league set to start back up? January? February? If there are significant delays due to playing outside the bubble again next season, it's not unthinkable that 35+1=37.
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
8,253
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
Yeah I was talking about Kawhi winning one last year, not when he was with the Spurs (and arguably wasn't even a superstar back then anyway but just a good cog in a great system who had a very good Finals series). There's no way the Lakers miss the playoffs last year if LeBron doesn't go down injured.

I'm not even a LeBron fan and neither am I saying that he's the GOAT. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I just can't stand people (primarily those who watched Jordan when they were young and are all nostalgic now) who simpy dismiss the whole argument and use empty arguments like "Jordan embodied greatness". As basketball players, in terms of stats, skills, achievements, ... there is most definitely a debate to be had right now. That's all I'm advocating for here, as I have no problem with people going for Jordan (I think I still do too at the moment but it can still shift LeBron's way obviously).
LeBron was shut down for the season after they missed the playoffs, and even if they made it to the playoffs they're not beating the Warriors.

LeBron's top 2 all time easily and I can see a case for him being the GOAT eventually, but I'm not a fan of the way he gets credit for everything when his team wins and none of the blame when his team loses.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
16,598
Supports
Real Madrid
My view is summed up as, MJ made almost every superstar else in his era ringless, while everybody got theirs during LeBron's.
Since his first title in 11/12 he went 4-4 in finals. Those 4 losses: one to the spurs with no help beyond game 2. One to the warriors with no help beyond game 1. 2 to the best team in nba history....

If we want to talk about pre-11/12 then it makes sense to talk about jordan pre-91, or '95 even...

Ultimately, the difference between them comes down to Jordan came first, has no real blemish unlike LeBron's '11 finals, and was luckier with no warriors, serious injuries or poor fitness of his teammates
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
8,253
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
Since his first title in 11/12 he went 4-4 in finals. Those 4 losses: one to the spurs with no help beyond game 2. One to the warriors with no help beyond game 1. 2 to the best team in nba history....

If we want to talk about pre-11/12 then it makes sense to talk about jordan pre-91, or '95 even...

Ultimately, the difference between them comes down to Jordan came first, has no real blemish unlike LeBron's '11 finals, and was luckier with no warriors, serious injuries or poor fitness of his teammates
That's because MJ made the Bulls the Warriors of his time.

Incredible how people can use that as a plus for LeBron despite actually being an achievement for MJ.
 

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
32,837
Since his first title in 11/12 he went 4-4 in finals. Those 4 losses: one to the spurs with no help beyond game 2. One to the warriors with no help beyond game 1. 2 to the best team in nba history....

If we want to talk about pre-11/12 then it makes sense to talk about jordan pre-91, or '95 even...

Ultimately, the difference between them comes down to Jordan came first, has no real blemish unlike LeBron's '11 finals, and was luckier with no warriors, serious injuries or poor fitness of his teammates
It's factually incorrect as well as Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are the only 'superstars' of that era that are ringless.

Dwight (till he joined James), Chris Paul & Melo are all ringless.
 

RobinLFC

Cries when Liverpool doesn't get praised
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
13,489
Location
Belgium
Supports
Liverpool
LeBron was shut down for the season after they missed the playoffs, and even if they made it to the playoffs they're not beating the Warriors.

LeBron's top 2 all time easily and I can see a case for him being the GOAT eventually, but I'm not a fan of the way he gets credit for everything when his team wins and none of the blame when his team loses.
He missed 17 games after Christmas with the same injury - we are making the playoffs if he doesn't.

I don't think he gets none of the blame either. You should only blame him for the right things though like his disappearance act in 2011 or whatnot. I don't get how people blame him for getting swept by the Spurs when he dragged an average team to the Finals that had no business being there. Or, even if you want to blame him for that, fair enough - but Jordan never even got to the Finals until he was in his 7th year (and 28 years old so at the peak of your physical powers normally). So yeah if you want to hold LeBron accountable for that fair enough, but on the other hand Jordan also needed a while to get over the hump in the playoffs. Yet all his biggest fans only talk about 1991-1998 (just six seasons actually) while he played in the NBA for 14 seasons (or 13 if you discount his sophomore injury year).
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
8,253
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
He missed 17 games after Christmas with the same injury - we are making the playoffs if he doesn't.

I don't think he gets none of the blame either. You should only blame him for the right things though like his disappearance act in 2011 or whatnot. I don't get how people blame him for getting swept by the Spurs when he dragged an average team to the Finals that had no business being there. Or, even if you want to blame him for that, fair enough - but Jordan never even got to the Finals until he was in his 7th year (and 28 years old so at the peak of your physical powers normally). So yeah if you want to hold LeBron accountable for that fair enough, but on the other hand Jordan also needed a while to get over the hump in the playoffs. Yet all his biggest fans only talk about 1991-1998 (just six seasons actually) while he played in the NBA for 14 seasons (or 13 if you discount his sophomore injury year).
I'm really only blaming him for two seasons, against the Mavs and the last year of the Heatles where he gave up on them halfway through the finals.

As the top player in the league, disappearing in the finals in your prime is a big negative but people always sweep it away by blaming his teammates.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
16,598
Supports
Real Madrid
That's because MJ made the Bulls the Warriors of his time.

Incredible how people can use that as a plus for LeBron despite actually being an achievement for MJ.
No, it is definitely a point in favour of Jordan, i've even said so in this thread

But at the same time, KD going to the warriors was a first, and it broke the league. As much as jordan's bulls were the warriors of the 90s, they weren't, not really. They added an older Rodman, still an all star and first team all defence, but KD to the warriors would have been akin to, say Barkley AND Hakeem to the Suns in '93...you think the bulls win that series anyways?
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
8,253
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
It's factually incorrect as well as Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are the only 'superstars' of that era that are ringless.

Dwight (till he joined James), Chris Paul & Melo are all ringless.
Stockton, Miller, Ewing, Kemp, Oakley, Penny and Tim Hardaway don't exist?

Unless you mean that the only superstars in the 90s were Malone, MJ, Chuck and Hakeem.
 

elmo

Can never have too many Eevees
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
8,253
Location
AKA: Slapanut Goat Smuggla
No, it is definitely a point in favour of Jordan, i've even said so in this thread

But at the same time, KD going to the warriors was a first, and it broke the league. As much as jordan's bulls were the warriors of the 90s, they weren't, not really. They added an older Rodman, still an all star and first team all defence, but KD to the warriors would have been akin to, say Barkley AND Hakeem to the Suns in '93...you think the bulls win that series anyways?
The Bulls were the Warriors of their time as in they were the most dominant team by far in that era....

I wish that had happened because I'm a Suns fan.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
16,598
Supports
Real Madrid
I'm really only blaming him for two seasons, against the Mavs and the last year of the Heatles where he gave up on them halfway through the finals.

As the top player in the league, disappearing in the finals in your prime is a big negative but people always sweep it away by blaming his teammates.
He was literally the best player in those finals :houllier:

The mavs finals are the blemish, but then he clearly wasn't yet in his prime and lacked maturity. Still, that series is inexcusable, yeah
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
16,598
Supports
Real Madrid
The Bulls were the Warriors of their time as in they were the most dominant team by far in that era....

I wish that had happened because I'm a Suns fan.
Yes, and they were able to because nobody else managed to build a team with 4 all stars including the second and third best players alive, with an HoF coach. Hell, when all's said and done those warriors probably had 5 HoF players in their best lineup. Nobody, not even the bulls, came close in the 90s
 

MrMarcello

In a well-ordered universe...
Joined
Dec 26, 2000
Messages
45,962
Location
On a pale blue dot in space
I don't get why it matters who is labeled the GOAT. It's like a stupid argument for the sake of arguing. LeBron seems hellbent on being tagged as the GOAT and Jordan certainly showed his beliefs during that bizarre HOF speech.
 

Zen

Full Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
11,263
It's factually incorrect as well as Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are the only 'superstars' of that era that are ringless.

Dwight (till he joined James), Chris Paul & Melo are all ringless.
Dwight wasn't ringless because of LeBron - he's not beat him once in the playoffs, CP3's been in the tougher west his whole career, and Melo ... well theres certain bigger and better teams than Melo's led ringless because of some kind of Jordan effect - Price led Cavs, Ewing's Knicks and Millers Pacer - forget that he beat everything from the west except Hakeem - LeBron can't reasonably say someone like Nash or CP3 are ringless because of him. The only team he didn't beat in a run is the team that won when he wasn't waiting for the end at the end. Every single player ringless in the 90's.... Jordan beat at some point, in their near peak form/setup.

But also for LeBron - I don't think he thrives on others being 'ringless' anyway.... Jordan probably does.


LeBron has essentially made Rose, Butler, George and the young OKC big 3 ringless. No one else was coming out of the East winning if everything else stays the same but LeBron disappears - Bulls probably beat Mavs, Pacers have a good run at it and the Heat would of given any west team a good run this summer.



Yes, and they were able to because nobody else managed to build a team with 4 all stars including the second and third best players alive, with an HoF coach. Hell, when all's said and done those warriors probably had 5 HoF players in their best lineup. Nobody, not even the bulls, came close in the 90s
The Celtics 08-12'ish will end up with 4... possibly 5 if Scalabrine gets what's rightfully his.