So you like their champions league win? That’s a good reason to be fair.
what about how they play?
Neville - ‘’no style of play’’
- Thread starter IrishRedDevil
- Start date
what about how they play?
You drop a centre forward for a midfielder and yeah it can be 451 or 433. We used both around that 08 period. It was a change from SAF but not some epic change of course.
Yep real wingers in 99 but Nani was an actual winger, Ronaldo was until his last year or two, Giggs was still a classic winger in 08. Fergie liking and using real wingers never really changed. Nor was he chained to it in his younger years as Beckham was completely different and he sometimes played Scholes on the left to great effect.
The four centre forwards in 99 were interchangeable and all very different as were the options in 08.
I'm not sure what John Oshea playing in CM proves but Fergie was playing a CD in midfield back in the mid 90's with Johnsen. Again nothing new.
Have to admit it grates a little when people say "you can't do X or Y in modern football."
Yeah some things have changed, the keepers pass it a lot more, teams play in their own halves more but the fundamentals are the same.
In a big club if you can't pass a ball you won't have a style. You'll forever be caught in limbo because you can't play like Burnley either.
That's true now and it was true 20 years ago. That's why mid 90's onwards Fergie had a bunch of players who could really play.
What an absolute load of over exaggerated garbage that is. They fluked a CL win 1-0 because pep ‘lost the fight with his inner smart-Arse’. Oh, they took Villarreal to pens too. There was another team that did that. Forget who. Chelsea play efficient football, they are not greatly entertaining but the amount of money they spent for Lampard and the players they bought in, plus there additions this window you would expect nothing less than being there or thereabouts. Again, there was another club who had a good window, and is up there at the top of the league. The name escapes me.
Neville has been wrong about many things in the past. On other things he's been right. Those things aren't exclusive and it's fair to point out both. On this occassion he's obviously very right and it's a bit damning for Ole that even Neville who's a close mate is coming out with it publically
The most obvious issue for United is the problem created by Bruno/Pogba/LW. You can only have two in the team at once but they're all star players, so someone has to miss out.
If you go with Fernandes in front of McTominay and Fred, it means it's either Pogba or Sancho/Rashford on the left. If you put Pogba alongside McTominay and Fred, you then either push Fernandes wide or drop him.
United have created a problem similar to what Arsenal created when they signed Ozil. They were a better team without him but if you try to shoehorn too many players into a system, it just doesn't click. The following midfields are better in my opinion:
Or...
If you go with Fernandes in front of McTominay and Fred, it means it's either Pogba or Sancho/Rashford on the left. If you put Pogba alongside McTominay and Fred, you then either push Fernandes wide or drop him.
United have created a problem similar to what Arsenal created when they signed Ozil. They were a better team without him but if you try to shoehorn too many players into a system, it just doesn't click. The following midfields are better in my opinion:
McTominay - Fred
Greenwood - Fernandes - Pogba
Greenwood - Fernandes - Pogba
Or...
McTominay - Fred
Greenwood - Pogba - Sancho/Rashford
Greenwood - Pogba - Sancho/Rashford
Bruno and Pogba are the least of our problems. They root far deeper than that. Without Bruno who knows where Ole would be. We looked really bad in the first half of the season last year without him. He brought new life into the club and the team with or without Pogba in the same side.
Ole was better off when we had a much worse squad and we could counter attack. These where the games that Mcfred looked better as there job was too chase the ball, work hard and energy. But now we have to dominate games Mcfred are useless as they lack the ability on the ball but it’s up too Ole too drop one and be more tactical which he is struggling with
Think Ole's management criteria is best suited out of possession but because of the United perceived way of attacking, he's being forced to adapt in a way where he's either unprepared or unable to organise the team tactically to make good decisions in possession.
I said last season that with newer players the team won't improve in this aspect and it's proving correct. Even with a Rice or Ndidi these additions don't influence patterns, phases of play or off ball movement all of which are down to coaching.
I think the only way for Solskjaer to salvage any kind of consistency in having a team performance is to use the 4-3-3. The best performances were under this shape with Herrera, Pogba and Matic. It wasn't great but was certainly better than what's being offered up presently.
I said last season that with newer players the team won't improve in this aspect and it's proving correct. Even with a Rice or Ndidi these additions don't influence patterns, phases of play or off ball movement all of which are down to coaching.
I think the only way for Solskjaer to salvage any kind of consistency in having a team performance is to use the 4-3-3. The best performances were under this shape with Herrera, Pogba and Matic. It wasn't great but was certainly better than what's being offered up presently.
He has said this over and over again over the years in different words. He always parrots what the social media idiots are saying, guaranteed way to be popular and get clicks
Do you think Ole has made huge strides from his early management outings?
All i care about is the club and don't really care who is in charge as long as they get us back winning trophies with a style of football we've come to expect.
Previous managers you named were all given the same support and criticism by my self when they deserve it.
Moyes was never ready to run a club like utd, LVG's football was stagnent and was never gonna work out long term and Jose couldn't and wouldn't change and were all the wrong choices by the board
You are not convinced that Ole is the man to take us back to the top.
I wonder why?
I never personally attack Ole but i do call him out on his glaring limitations and mistakes i see with his teams.
I don't see a pretty high bar set by Ole with the squad that he has in front of him.[/QUOTE]
Everton & Brighton are up there at this early stage. Whether or not they can stay there is hard to tell, at this early stage I’d be looking at how they are playing
Fixed.
Everton have played Leeds, Norwich, Southampton and conceded 2 goals more to Villa than we did.
Brighton have played Burnley Watford and Palace. They were beaten by Everton.
Its not hard to tell, of course they will both fall away when they come up against top half opposition. Ive lost to the point of what you were trying to prove - shall we agree to disagree and move on?
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Obviously they won’t but the problem for us is Chelsea have played away to Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal and at home to City yet are ahead of us.
It's amazing you can ask such with a straight face. Do you need reminding where he found Cardiff and where he left them? Has United suffered the same back ward trend since he took over?
Totally and the biggest key to molding this together, is that midfield area we know we are severely lacking, which we have been struggling with for years.
I actually agree who they have played should be taken into consideration…. United have played Leeds, Wolves, Southampton, Newcastle, West Ham, Aston Vila.
Pretty similar fixtures to our own, also they scored 2 more against Southampton then we did and they were away to Vila… next we can discuss each clubs transfer spend and how the long the manager has been at each club.
That is fair and yes our MF is poor but still we lack a style and Ole has too come up with a plan to minimise the weakness.
The problem I have is people use Klopp at Liverpool due to the similar starts and position in the league but Liverpool under Klopp in the first few years had a style of play and you could tell he just needed the players too challenge with Ole even if we fixed the MF I still wouldn’t be confident we would do much.
It would probably help if he sacked off the 4231 in games where we expect to have the majority of the possession.
For those mocking the “patterns of play” line, he doesn’t need to be a tactical genius, but off the top of my head:
- Overlapping fullback and wingers to stretch the pitch
- Pass and move triangles in the midfield/final third, quick one touch
- Forwards occupying the defenders on the shoulder
- Midfielders running through the lines
- Team pressing the opposition when off the ball
Not saying all these things necessarily mesh together in one perfect system for 90 mins every game, but we see maybe one or two of the above for 10/15 minutes in the odd game, and that’s its. Hence it feels like the players are being relied onto click.
The only time we ever look consistently slick in game is on the counter, otherwise it’s quite slow and ponderous, lots of sideways passing in front of defenders, hope/expect Bruno or Pogba to pull a rabbit.
For those mocking the “patterns of play” line, he doesn’t need to be a tactical genius, but off the top of my head:
- Overlapping fullback and wingers to stretch the pitch
- Pass and move triangles in the midfield/final third, quick one touch
- Forwards occupying the defenders on the shoulder
- Midfielders running through the lines
- Team pressing the opposition when off the ball
Not saying all these things necessarily mesh together in one perfect system for 90 mins every game, but we see maybe one or two of the above for 10/15 minutes in the odd game, and that’s its. Hence it feels like the players are being relied onto click.
The only time we ever look consistently slick in game is on the counter, otherwise it’s quite slow and ponderous, lots of sideways passing in front of defenders, hope/expect Bruno or Pogba to pull a rabbit.
This season has convinced me more and more that the people who said he only plays counter attack where right.
When he had a poor squad and played on counter it worked but now we are expected to dominate most games we look clueless.
I understand the CM is poor but are people confident if we fixed that we would be a top side ? As everywhere else on paper we are incredibly strong. The MF might be poor but being dominated by Villa, Wolves and Young Boys shouldn’t be happening.
When he had a poor squad and played on counter it worked but now we are expected to dominate most games we look clueless.
I understand the CM is poor but are people confident if we fixed that we would be a top side ? As everywhere else on paper we are incredibly strong. The MF might be poor but being dominated by Villa, Wolves and Young Boys shouldn’t be happening.
I fail to see how United fans can be considered spoilt. Ole would have NEVER gotten a 3 years job at any top club. Neither would have Van Gaal or Mourinho and Moyes wouldn't have even been hired. The reality is that the United fanbase isn't even vocal enough and willing to put up with too much mediocrity because of some mystical "United way" that most people don't even know what is.
And no, we're not better than during Mourinho's days, this is something people refuse to admit. With Mourinho we've achieved more points with a way worse squad, that's discounting the trophies we won with him. Okay, you don't like his off the field antics, i'll agree to that, but to claim we're better as a football team is ridiculous. Not in terms of results and not in terms of play. Unfortunately, with Ole we're just as negative as we were during Mourinho's tenure, more concerned about avoiding defeat than actually "giving it a go", if I'm to quote one of Ole's favorite phrases.
And furthermore, United fans have a right to be entitled for trophies. This team has spent equal to Guardiola's City with none of the success. But unlike Guardiola's City, the clubs money doesn't come from some sheikh or an oil country, it comes from our pockets - the United fans. And as such we have a right to expect a certain standard considering the amount of money Ole has spent. All United fans like me are asking is that Ole be judged by this season. And no - top 4 doesn't count as a trophy.
Last nights CL was fascinating between the oily teams. Defensively, speed of transition, passing, formation. Not perfect on either side of course. But structured, coherent, disciplined. From this side of the fence, is this the promised land?
Don't worry we will see it again one day when we have a coach who understands the importance of ball possession and developing patterns of play on the training ground rather than what we are seeing right now
His time at Cardiff was a nightmare. Living in the area and managing to watch several games under his tenure with my father as a season ticket holder the feeling around the Cardiff fans was that his decisions was mind boggling with awful set up sides from week to week.
I agree the majority of football hasn't gone backwards and that the spirit and the harmony in the camp is greatly improved.
But from winning trophies it has gone backwards from the last previous two managers who had a way of playing which was rightly deemed not acceptable and a camp that was unhappy.
When Klopp first went to Liverpool it started poorly but from the off he had a philosophy on the way the side was going to play.
The side showed signs from the off of this and has improved year on year with this same style. He addressed the weaknesses each transfer window with the signing of a Gk, 2/3 holding midfielders and a key central defender.
I still don't see Oles big vision on how he wants us to play after being heavily backed in each transfer window and not addressing glaring issues in that midfield of a very good squad that should be competing.
We had Louis Van Gaal. But then we chased him away. Woodward even fired him in an embarrassing manner.
He was rightfully fired the mistake was then replacing him with a manager who plays totally different instead of a manager that plays close to the same
At least you could tell what Van Gaal was trying for. It may have resulted in fairly tumescent football but at least it looked like tactical instructions were more advanced than the shrug and “good luck, lads” our play today looks indistinguishable from
This.
It helps when you have one of the greatest (if not the best) CL squads of all time.
We have a tidy squad but it’s not on that level.
Fergie’s teams always evolved and devolved in style.
1. Mid-Late 1980s: tactical experimentation with Fergie fledgings and Atkinson’s boys
2. Early 1990s-1994: pacy wing play, combative midfield and power forwards
3. 1994-1999: dominate midfield possession, nippy/tricky forwards
4. 1999-2004:
5. 2004-2009: 5-4-1 diamond with Ruud alone on top
6. 2009-2012: compact def and mid, interchangeable front 3
1. Mid-Late 1980s: tactical experimentation with Fergie fledgings and Atkinson’s boys
2. Early 1990s-1994: pacy wing play, combative midfield and power forwards
3. 1994-1999: dominate midfield possession, nippy/tricky forwards
4. 1999-2004:
5. 2004-2009: 5-4-1 diamond with Ruud alone on top
6. 2009-2012: compact def and mid, interchangeable front 3
Good post!
Aye at least we knew what he was doing if even it was worse football I've ever seen in my life, and brought in worse results and even more wastage on funds with absolute dung players took a age to move on.
But at least we knew he was trying to bore us to death, but was solid with patterns of play, passing backwards and sidewards.
I miss the glory days of "shot on target in first half" was like a victory.
I think ole is incredibly incompetent but anyone defending van gaals tenure here is just delusional. We played the worst football I had ever seen. Yes he had a style of play unlike ole but he failed at implementing it completely.
Individual Brilliance FC
fecking crap game. Thank God we have enough individual class I sometimes make up for our lack of game plan
Whatever we started doing after they scored is what we should have done from the kick-off. Was this actual instructions in the first half or do our players need a hit on the chin to actually bother? Villarreal looked absolutely shambles after they had scored.
Shivers thinking of it......my most grimmest time watching us, and I liked van gaal too that was the worse bit. Like paint drying. Make Moyes Fulham match look swashbuckling
I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a team set up so ridiculously as we did in the first half. Basically McTominay sitting (although not all the time) and Pogba and Bruno playing as number 10’s. Add to that two wide forwards and Ronaldo- it’s no reason they were strolling through us at will! Shambolic!
Say what you want but that winner is a fantastic goal when you see Lingard means the pass
There was a more ridiculous side just this Sunday - Tottenham. Talk about hyperbole. It was a poor half but no need to go over the top, clearly something different was tried and it didn't work out.