There's not really any reason for trade between the UK and Scotland to stop though - indeed Scotland would want a trading relationship that's as smooth as possible, and in that regard the UK would be in a similar position; we may be a much smaller economic entity but it'd hardly be beneficial for the UK to have an ailing neighbour beside it.
Nicola Sturgeon and Scottish Independence
- Thread starter altodevil
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They could if they signed appropriate trade deals. But they couldn’t have the same terms they do at present if they joined the EU.
The point is that Scotland would then not have the same access to the rest of the UK that if does at present, despite the land border. Considering that the vast majority of Scotland’s trade is with the UK, that would clearly have a negative effect on the economy, and make it a less attractive investment proposition.
But surely if Scotland leaves, it’s to join the EU? I thought that was the argument?
And if it does, then it wouldn’t be a negotiation between England and Scotland, it would be the UK (ex-Sc) and the EU.
If the UK are outside the EU I feel like there's a chance we'd go for an EFTA deal of some sort - the SNP probably won't admit that because of their pro-European slant, but it may be better for us to pursue a deal that's similar to the rest of the UK, provided we don't dive off a cliff with a full-on hard Brexit.
It’s about being able to hold our government to account. Something we can not currently do. We have historically voted to the left, yet I’ve spend the majority of my life under Tory rule. Even when labour did take power it was only after a step to the right that they did so.
Yes it will be hard, but what has ever been worth doing that was easy? The English need to stop taking it so personally. It’s not about them.
You show me a union where each nation has a fair and equal say and I’ll be on board. As it stands, I’m sick of wars. I’m sick of the disabled being used as scape goats to shift the blame from the actions of bankers. I’m sick of being lied to be the leader of our nations and having no recourse to fight it. I have never felt lik part of Union. I’ve always felt 2nd class, politically.
Thats brilliant
That’s the deal we’d probably have here in Ireland at the minute if it wasn’t for those vermin from the DUP.
So for you its about sovereignty, which is tied to identity.
Ireland is forecast to be worse hit than the UK by Brexit. Granted that Ireland's economy is growing at a very strong rate currently so it can absorb it but take banking as an example, you are competing with other highly developed banking sectors like Frankfurt and Paris for a share of the spoils. The idea that you can just hoover up all this business just like that is optimistic in the extreme.
Wasn't me, but why is that a bad thing?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.
One of the big arguments against Brexit, propagated by what you would call 'remoaners' is how dumb it is to economically self harm. Many argue that it is the start and end of any debate on such matters (although I'm a remainer almost purely on economic concerns) but identity politics often trumps economic concerns.
See, for me the dumb part was Brexiteers thinking they were regaining sovereignty that the previously didn't have. This was blatantly not the case, and so it is economic harm with no tangible benefit. That would not be the case for Scotland.
I already have my identity. It’s not at all linked to being able to self govern.
Nail meeting head.
If Brexit is primarily fueled by populism and nationalism, Scottish independence is all that and then some.
Maybe before 2016, not now though. Complete nonsense.
Well the alternative is that it would now be fueled by Europhilism?
It is really a very different thing. The voting preferences of Scotland in virtually all matters being trumped by the population density of South England for decades, coupled with a natural separation of identity makes Scottish independance very different from the populist wave underpinning Brexit, as witnessed by the very different Brexit/Independance voting patterns in Scotland. The SNP are not equivalent to UKIP.
There is an element of populism and nationalism to Scottish independence but in the latter case it's (mostly) a very different form of nationalism to what was driving Brexit. The comparison's a bit disingenuous in that respect.
I think it still ticks all the populism boxes regardless. It's an economic shot to the foot, at best, for the benefit of what? Not being governed by the Tories? Sounds an awful lot like the little Englanders problems with Brussels.
Funny thing is no one really seems to notice that, all independence issues removed, the SNP are basically Tory-lite, and even worse at running national services. As much as I think independence would be suicidal for Scotland right now a small evil part of me would like to see the masses turn on the snake oil peddlers when the SNP hit the country with post-indy austerity+ to cope with budget shortfalls.
The UK are sovereign and have the power to leave the EU without the permission of Brussels, as is being evidenced right now. Scotland isn't and relies on the consent of the UK in that regard. The difference is fairly obvious.
The SNP like to exaggerate their left-wing credentials but if they're closer to anyone/anything it'd be New Labour - socially and economically they aren't really Tory-lite at all. Their record on public services isn't perfect and needs significant improvement in some areas but it isn't awful either - it'd be hard to point to any individual scandal or sector that's been handled appallingly while they've been in power.
Under the plans floated about around Indyref1 Scotland still would have been financially governed by the Bank of England in London! Then you wanted back in the EU which is further ceding sovereignty. If the UK even left under May's deal it would be more sovereign than Scotland would under their plans for 'independence'.
Really?
Exactly what about being Scottish is linked to politics? I’m Scottish, that my identity. If I was a slave in chains I’d still be Scottish. If I was living in England, or anywhere else, I’d still be Scottish. Identity suggests that I’m not Scottish, and need to be separate from the uk to be so, or that I have some need to reclaim what makes being Scottish a thing. There is no identity in question here, only the ability to have a say in our own destiny.
“Let’s make it a nation wide vote so we can kick them out”. I mean, how can people say that and not understand the Scottish point of view? We are at the mercy of a foreign nation that just told the rest of Europe to feck off because they believed a lot of shit in the news papers. But I’m the asshole for not wanting to be tied to that sinking ship?
So I’ll say it again, as it seems to be getting lost. I don’t care about independence other than a means to an end. Give each nation in the union an equal say in what we do as a collective and I’m all for sticking together. By that rational, 2 for and 2 against would have avoided the cliff edge that we are hurtling towards.
You surely do at least recognise that independence would be an even higher cliff edge right?
No. I recognise that it wouldn’t be easy, but we would be willing to work with eu, not look for special treatment outside of it. The main difference is that we would be getting something out of independence, the uk was already a sovereign state.
An individual or collective identity is a lot more complex than simply saying 'I'm Scottish, as a slave in chains I'm still Scottish'. That was Braveheart-esque though
In political terms the Scottish identity has been on the left of the UK political compass. Like most political alignments it has been fundamentally driven by economic pragmatism. Historically Scotland, like the North of England, had a lot of heavy industry and working class concerns. But there's a dose of anti-Westminster and anti-English sentiment in there too I feel. The general perception of England is that its right wing and morally questionable.
This idea of Scottish exceptionalism through a perceived sense of political moral superiority has probably never been stronger. The Brexit vote has allowed a lot of finger pointing at the 'racist' English and collective Scottish backslapping at their perceived sense of political progressivism in contrast. I feel this has helped the fervour of Scottish nationalism. I believe these are all parts of a collective national identity, or at least the collective identity of Scottish nationalists in the vein of the SNP.
If you are talking about economic pragmatism whilst sating the desire for 'sovereignty'. Then I think Scotland would be best off perusing a devo-max option, that would enable Scotland to have a high degree of political autonomy whilst maintaining the benefits of being in the Union. I don't think the SNP would be interested in that anymore because it would be a lot harder for them to defer to the nationalism argument when they fail to advance the Scottish economy and improve public services. Its hard to see what's in it for the rest of the UK too.
Personally, I think when the time is right another independence referendum should take place. If Scotland wants to leave as a collective then you're happy. If its a no vote again, the lid should be put on the question for another 20-30 years.
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As I already said, it’s not about the English. Not now, not then. We don’t think we’re any better than you. obviously I’m speaking in general terms, I’m sure you’ll find more than a few idiots that hates the English based on nothing more than what the did to Mel Gibson at the end of that movie.An individual or collective identity is a lot more complex than simply saying 'I'm Scottish, as a slave in chains I'm still Scottish'. That was Braveheart-esque though
In political terms the Scottish identity has been on the left of the UK political compass. Like most political alignments it has been fundamentally driven by economic pragmatism. Historically Scotland, like the North of England, had a lot of heavy industry and working class concerns. But there's a dose of anti-Westminster and anti-English sentiment in there too I feel. The general perception of England is that its right wing and morally questionable.
This idea of Scottish exceptionalism through a perceived sense of political moral superiority has probably never been stronger. The Brexit vote has allowed a lot of finger pointing at the 'racist' English and collective Scottish backslapping at their perceived sense of political progressivism in contrast. I feel this has helped the fervour of Scottish nationalism. I believe these are all parts of a collective national identity, or at least the collective identity of Scottish nationalists in the vein of the SNP.
If you are talking about economic pragmatism whilst sating the desire for 'sovereignty'. Then I think Scotland would be best off perusing a devo-max option, that would enable Scotland to have a high degree of political autonomy whilst maintaining the benefits of being in the Union. I don't think the SNP would be interested in that anymore because it would be a lot harder for them to defer to the nationalism argument when they fail to advance the Scottish economy and improve public services. Its hard to see what's in it for the rest of the UK too.
Personally, I think when the time is right another independence referendum should take place. If Scotland wants to leave as a collective then you're happy. If its a no vote again, the lid should be put on the question for another 20-30 years.
If it was just the north of England, I’d say we were the same. Same problems, same ideals, same attitudes to life in general. Same ratio of people that are cnuts(in my case 55%
). So when you say we are anti Westminster, that’s pretty much it in a nutshell. It’s not the English, it’s not that we think we are morally superior or anything like that. We are just politically too far away from Westminster as I’m sure a lot of people in the north of England would say. If Scotland had independence, and the snp were in power. And they did what Westminster did to the disabled. They’d be gone. They’d be out on their ear by the next election. Instead we’ve had to endure pole tax, wars, banking bullhsit, the blame for recession shifted on to people with cancer and MS. We’ve had to endure being told we’re a burden, we’re lucky to be here and having it so good. We have to but up with wankers who insults us for being Scottish(bigotry if you will). When I was younger, a teen/early twenties in England I was constantly challenged to a fight. Beating up a guy from Glasgow seen as some kind of bragging right. We have many reasons to hate the English, and some of us do. But independence is still not about that. For the majority of us, its simply about not being controlled by Westminster in the manner it has for so many years. If the north of England wants to come with us, theyd all be welcome. Although if anyone ever asks what team you support, say Partick thistle
. Oh and the devo max option, that was actually the last minute carrot dangled in front of us by the “better together” wankers that changed the course of the vote. Of course all we got was more watered down powers that didn’t mean a lot. If there was an honest to god devo max option on the table that wouldn’t be voted against by bitter Tory’s, IMO the independence issue would be put to bed once and for all. There would always be rumblings, but with devo max in play it would never get any rela support. The issue would be gone, IMO.
I would vote for devo max in a heartbeat were that on the ballot. Think that option would easily take 50-60% of a 3-way vote.
https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-47406529?__twitter_impression=true
I could strangle Theresa May
I could strangle Theresa May
Always fun being dictated to by a foreign country.
I was speaking to a colleague from the Scottish civil service a while back who seemed pro-independence but had major worries about how things would work afterwards.
Basically, because of the way that Scottish politics has gone the devolution era, many senior civil servants owe their jobs to the SNP, have only ever worked with the SNP and work a lot more closely with the SNP than the UK civil service does with the party in power. Which at the moment is fantastic because there's mutual understanding and cooperation and enthusiasm and everyone is pulling in the same direction. Because of this, the self-selecting pool of people who are going into public service are increasingly SNP-aligned and these people tend to do better and rise through the ranks. Not through nepotism or anything so sinister, simply because as a worker you're more likely to thrive in an environment where you believe in what you're working to achieve and fit into the culture.
The issue comes when, post-independence, the Scottish political landscape becomes more pluralistic and the situation arises where another party comes into government but the supposedly non-partisan civil service has developed it's culture and working practices alongside the SNP, works more efficiently with/for the SNP and its senior figures have very close ties with senior SNP politicians. In that situation, any rival party would have a tougher time getting stuff done in government than an SNP government would, which isn't great for democracy.
Regardless, it's ridiculous that Scotland doesn't get another vote if that's what yous want. The situation the UK is in now is not what people signed up for when they voted to stay in.
Basically, because of the way that Scottish politics has gone the devolution era, many senior civil servants owe their jobs to the SNP, have only ever worked with the SNP and work a lot more closely with the SNP than the UK civil service does with the party in power. Which at the moment is fantastic because there's mutual understanding and cooperation and enthusiasm and everyone is pulling in the same direction. Because of this, the self-selecting pool of people who are going into public service are increasingly SNP-aligned and these people tend to do better and rise through the ranks. Not through nepotism or anything so sinister, simply because as a worker you're more likely to thrive in an environment where you believe in what you're working to achieve and fit into the culture.
The issue comes when, post-independence, the Scottish political landscape becomes more pluralistic and the situation arises where another party comes into government but the supposedly non-partisan civil service has developed it's culture and working practices alongside the SNP, works more efficiently with/for the SNP and its senior figures have very close ties with senior SNP politicians. In that situation, any rival party would have a tougher time getting stuff done in government than an SNP government would, which isn't great for democracy.
Regardless, it's ridiculous that Scotland doesn't get another vote if that's what yous want. The situation the UK is in now is not what people signed up for when they voted to stay in.
It's probably worth noting that the SNP as a party is an incredibly broad church. As in, they have key figures ranging from proper leftists like Mhairi Black, to standard neoliberal centrists, to outright creationists like John Mason.
I reckon in any post-independent Scotland you'll see the party fracture within one or two elections. Right now the broad church works because they're all working to one unified goal, but afterwards that won't be the case any longer, and the distinctions between certain key party figures will become a lot clearer.
I'd imagine such a predicament would apply to the civil service too. You'll have a lot of SNP supporters in there, but SNP supporters aren't all unified in where they want the party to go, and what they want the party to do. And you'll get plenty of party voters (like myself) who are willing to vote for them currently but would potentially switch if a better offer was on the table.
It isn't. So it's fine.
It is, so it’s not fine.
As soon as the Scots demonstrate in a sustained manner that they want another independence vote I'm sure they'll get one, just as they did the last time. It's said down in England that the Scottish independence people won't ask for one until they're sure they'll win, so it's in their hands really.
Sturgeon's already literally asked for one...
All ears for a source. As someone with Scottish heritage I would personally vote for Independence by the way, irrespective of any short to medium term economic effect.
Sturgeon called for one in 2017 but was denied the opportunity. She can't do much when the UK government refuse, because they've ultimately got the power in that regard.
Agree about the power, but how about the source?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-speech-second-indy-ref-2-uk-eu-a7626746.html
Got plenty of attention at the time...