Nordic Ghost Yeti | Haaland at City

Fortitude

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One of these players was playing as a false 9 for a team who got dominated all match, whose midfield and defence struggled to beat the press and whose tactics were primarily to play all-out defence anyway (which they managed successfully). Despite that, he was the key player in the goal that ultimately won the match, had over 90% pass accuracy and 59 touches.

The other played upfront for a team camped in the opposition half, managed 7 passes (at 70% success rate) and only 21 touches. He looked no threat at all and City would probably have actively been better without him.

Bellingham did his job for the team last night. Haaland really struggled. I don’t think that their performances were in any way comparable.
It's not an odd retort, it's a valid point. Performance wise, he sucked over the course of 2 games, and especially in this game, being pocketed by Dias. He couldn't keep the ball, he couldn't progress it up field, he couldn't facilitate for others. Saying he ran around a lot isn't much. Haaland did stuff that is conveniently ignored, I'm just applying the same standard to others.
I don't know if those numbers are correct, but if they are, that's what one expects of a midfielder doing what he has been asked to do. Bellingham also confirmed after the match that his primary brief was defensive, which again, he performed. You say he couldn't keep the ball, yet aren't factoring in the amount of times he was twisting and turning and taken down via foul means to prevent him from turning back out for a positive release. Those are either, or situations where we don't get to see the conclusions because of the foul whilst the player has executed the first part to facilitate the possibility of the second.

Bellinhgham's remit is broader and a lot more expansive and he was utilised in a very different manner last night. Haaland doesn't have the same claims to his name or his role; one clearly had a better game than the other because he did what was asked of him and, again, if those numbers are accurate, clearly performed his duty in terms of enabling his teammates to either keep the ball or progress the play.
 

adexkola

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I don't know if those numbers are correct, but if they are, that's what one expects of a midfielder doing what he has been asked to do. Bellingham also confirmed after the match that his primary brief was defensive, which again, he performed. You say he couldn't keep the ball, yet aren't factoring in the amount of times he was twisting and turning and taken down via foul means to prevent him from turning back out for a positive release. Those are either, or situations where we don't get to see the conclusions because of the foul whilst the player has executed the first part to facilitate the possibility of the second.

Bellinhgham's remit is broader and a lot more expansive and he was utilised in a very different manner last night. Haaland doesn't have the same claims to his name or his role; one clearly had a better game than the other because he did what was asked of him and, again, if those numbers are accurate, clearly performed his duty in terms of enabling his teammates to either keep the ball or progress the play.
Erling Haaland and Kevin De Bruyne asked me to go out,’ Guardiola said in his post-match press conference.

They could not continue. In the game they were amazing. I didn’t plan to make a lot of substitutions but they asked me to go out because they could not continue.
According to Guardiola, Haaland was amazing. Who had the better game again?
 

Rooney in Paris

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He's not arguing in good faith. Becoming Haaland's absolute advocate and defender in all circumstances, even when he's objectively poor/meh is his new thing. He loves arguing for the sake of arguing, will ignore most of your valid points, and just focus on tidbits. Very similar to that other guy's posting MO that you were responding to yesterday. I really don't understand people like this but I guess they get some pleasure or satisfaction out of it.
 

giorno

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Tbf, all the sites that use algorithms to rate players performance rated Haaland as having a pretty good game, and generally better than Bellingham. They also don't rate Rudiger's performance though so it just goes to show how stupid those algorithms are
 

RedfromIreland

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“Erling Haaland and Kevin De Bruyne asked me to go out,’
I wonder what Gary Nev and all the Press think of that, after the way Bruno got Lambasted for allegedly asking to come off against the Scousers?
 

Fortitude

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He's not arguing in good faith. Becoming Haaland's absolute advocate and defender in all circumstances, even when he's objectively poor/meh is his new thing. He loves arguing for the sake of arguing, will ignore most of your valid points, and just focus on tidbits. Very similar to that other guy's posting MO that you were responding to yesterday. I really don't understand people like this but I guess they get some pleasure or satisfaction out of it.
Always interested in hearing different perspectives, so long as they're genuine. :angel:
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Tbf, all the sites that use algorithms to rate players performance rated Haaland as having a pretty good game, and generally better than Bellingham. They also don't rate Rudiger's performance though so it just goes to show how stupid those algorithms are
Rudiger made a mistake for City's only goal of the game, and missed the best chance of the game to win it. His general play was good, but he messed up those two vital moments (but got redemption by scoring the penalty).
 

Teja

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Tbf, all the sites that use algorithms to rate players performance rated Haaland as having a pretty good game, and generally better than Bellingham. They also don't rate Rudiger's performance though so it just goes to show how stupid those algorithms are
No algorithm can currently evaluate defensive performance well. Hell, even most humans can't really see it. When the work is being done right, you're mostly anonymous on the pitch.

Every single decent stat out there (xG, xA, xT, field tilt, fancier things like xG / xT increased per player) looks at the attacking game. The defensive side of it is just stupid shit like tackles won, headers won etc.
 

adexkola

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No algorithm can currently evaluate defensive performance well. Hell, even most humans can't really see it. When the work is being done right, you're mostly anonymous on the pitch.

Every single decent stat out there (xG, xA, xT, field tilt, fancier things like xG / xT increased per player) looks at the attacking game. The defensive side of it is just stupid shit like tackles won, headers won etc.
This isn't true. Defensive performances (both individual and collective) can be quantified. They wouldn't make sense to the layman fan though because what they are measuring is performance (area denial, pressures off the ball) relative to a mean that's benchmarked on the attacking team's average quality.
 

Teja

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This isn't true. Defensive performances (both individual and collective) can be quantified. They wouldn't make sense to the layman fan though because what they are measuring is performance (area denial, pressures off the ball) relative to a mean that's benchmarked on the attacking team's average quality.
I really haven't seen anything as fancy as area denial. But yeah even if it exists, I still stick by my statement that the vast majority of statistical research goes into quantifying attacking. The only good models I've seen for defensive play are for evaluating goalkeeping performances. (e.g., in a 1v1, you can track goal keeper's positioning to see how much they reduced the chance of scoring through their movement -- based on how long they stay up, when they choose to move, which way they force the attacker etc.)
 

adexkola

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I really haven't seen anything as fancy as area denial. But yeah even if it exists, I still stick by my statement that the vast majority of statistical research goes into quantifying attacking. The only good models I've seen for defensive play are for evaluating goalkeeping performances. (e.g., in a 1v1, you can track goal keeper's positioning to see how much they reduced the chance of scoring through their movement -- based on how long they stay up, when they choose to move, which way they force the attacker etc.)
Most research goes into attacking, yes. It's easier to quantify across all sports. But a lot of work has gone into quantifying defensive efforts. Here's one example: they actually come up with several metrics that correlate to better defensive effort... They just won't make sense at first glance

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1754337115583198

And it does follow that a lot of people are plain shit at gauging a player's contribution (both on and off ball) using their naked eyes. I mean, the last 15 pages are a testament of that :)
 
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brunoag4

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The worst City player on the pitch by far, hard to not feel pity for his teammates who gave everything they had and completely dominated Real.
The impressive thing is how consistent he is in terms of managing to be the worst City player in almost every game he ends scoreless, so predictable like Lukaku in that aspect.
 
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Chesterlestreet

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* He lacks certain traits that he will likely never develop (at least not at the required level, which is the very highest one).

* He's as close to a "pure" finisher as you're likely to see in current football (again: at the highest level).

* Unless Pep is an idiot, Haaland does perform a function even when he doesn't have an obvious impact/makes an obvious contribution (i.e. when he doesn't score, basically).

* I don't like Pep one bit, but I don't think he's an idiot.

* Pep's despicable City team did win the Treble with Haaland up front (scoring 50+ goals in all competitions).
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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I reckon City would score as many goals with Isaac in the team and be harder to play against, more of the time. He’s nothing like as clinical but he’s a better football and is still ca great finisher.

Honestly think Pep will try to sell him this summer and may leave if he doesn’t get what he wants. I don’t think he wants to play the kind of football that sees Haaland maximised to the detriment of everything else.
 

adexkola

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I reckon City would score as many goals with Isaac in the team and be harder to play against, more of the time. He’s nothing like as clinical but he’s a better football and is still ca great finisher.

Honestly think Pep will try to sell him this summer and may leave if he doesn’t get what he wants. I don’t think he wants to play the kind of football that sees Haaland maximised to the detriment of everything else.
Yeah this can't be proven by the data over Guardiola's tenure at City.

His teams have seen Aguero, Jesus, a false 9, and Haaland up front. Which team has been the most successful? The team with Haaland. What team hasn't exited the CL, at times looking unable to get a goal? All of them. In all those other exits, the fault has been more spread out through the team, with measured (:lol:) criticism of tactics or the collective not doing enough. Are there some who look at the construction of this team and think, "oh yeah Haaland is holding them back"? And if so, from what exactly?
 

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I thought Erling was fine last night. Rudiger pocketed him for most the games but Erling did quite well at times.

He's been struggling since the injury and not really found his mojo but last night he was a handful.

City as a team struggled to put Madrid away but Foden and KDB were bigger culprits.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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I thought Erling was fine last night. Rudiger pocketed him for most the games but Erling did quite well at times.

He's been struggling since the injury and not really found his mojo but last night he was a handful.

City as a team struggled to put Madrid away but Foden and KDB were bigger culprits.
Foden I’d agree but the KdB call out is wild, guy ran himself into the ground and grabbed the equaliser, saying that he was worse than Haaland who had 20 odd touches the whole game is mind boggling to say the least.
 

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It's funny how some fellas are trying to distort the discussion. He's obviously not useless, otherwise he wouldn't be a starter for the best team in the world. What's happening is a reaction to that previous exaggeration about his level. If some are using similar overstatements to do that, shame on them. Being able to exert his part and maintain a team as dominant as City in at least a similar level obviously is a fantastic feat that only a great player could do, but the problem is that some were using his individual goal tally as if he had brought his goals with him, which is not true.

That point about City winning UCL after get him is so stupid that won't be worthy my next words. It only requires to watch the games against Madrid in 21/22 to perceive they were as much dominant and lose because of poor finishing and brilliant moments of Benzema, Modric and Vinícius(there wasn't a Walker to outpace him).

"Haaland makes them defend better because he alone can mantain their level up front even if they replace a midfielder with a defender", but, when you ask for proofs, you get TWO games(of course, because there's no defensive improvement season-wise), in which City created a lot and scored five goals with Haaland having a secondary role.
 

brunoag4

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Yeah this can't be proven by the data over Guardiola's tenure at City.

His teams have seen Aguero, Jesus, a false 9, and Haaland up front. Which team has been the most successful? The team with Haaland. What team hasn't exited the CL, at times looking unable to get a goal? All of them. In all those other exits, the fault has been more spread out through the team, with measured (:lol:) criticism of tactics or the collective not doing enough. Are there some who look at the construction of this team and think, "oh yeah Haaland is holding them back"? And if so, from what exactly?
This argument is so weak..You sound like City lives and dies with Haaland.

The same as asking which Dortmund was the most successful in Bundesliga? The team without Haaland. What Dortmund team hasn't exited the CL and is on its way to a SF? the team without Haaland.

You'd have a point if he was carrying his team in the Champions League last year against Real or Inter, or if City was having problems dominating the league before him. He was a ghost just like yesterday scoring "0".
 
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stefan92

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This argument is so weak..You sound like City lives and dies with Haaland.

The same as asking which Dortmund was the most successful in Bundesliga? The team without Haaland. What Dortmund team hasn't exited the CL and is on its way to a SF? the team without Haaland.
What Dortmund team was the last to actually win something? With Haaland winning the DFB cup. It's a weak argument in every way.
 

adexkola

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This argument is so weak..You sound like City lives and dies with Haaland.

The same as asking which Dortmund was the most successful in Bundesliga? The team without Haaland. What Dortmund team hasn't exited the CL and is on its way to a SF? the team without Haaland.

You'd have a point if he was carrying his team in the Champions League last year against Real or Inter, or if City was having problems dominating the league before him. He was a ghost just like yesterday scoring "0".
I'm not the one arguing he makes City worse. To argue that point you need to point to some evidence. How did/does he make the team worse, from before his arrival to now?

Some people and bot don't like that he doesn't do dribbles and through passes. That's fine... It can stop there without assuming strikers not in a certain mold make teams worse automatically, and actual managers who have benched strikers in the past for not following instructions refuse to bench a certain one because of shits and giggles
 

padr81

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Foden I’d agree but the KdB call out is wild, guy ran himself into the ground and grabbed the equaliser, saying that he was worse than Haaland who had 20 odd touches the whole game is mind boggling to say the least.
Sorry I meant worse in terms of missing chances that could have put the tie to bed. He missed probably the biggest chance of the game. He was way better than Erling in general play. I would say he along with Rodri were our two best players. Foden also miskicking one 6 years out but KDB's was guilt edged.
 

Saffron

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No Haaland against Brighton? Time for some breathtaking football then.

I’m calling it now – this will be an absolute slaughter and everyone will agree City are back at their best.
 

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Tbf, didn't they stroll to the title a few years back, with KDB out all season?

City is just a machine that keeps on going.
 

giorno

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Tbf, didn't they stroll to the title a few years back, with KDB out all season?

City is just a machine that keeps on going.
Most of it yeah. 98 points, beat arguably the best Liverpool side of all time - by definition one of the best teams ever in general - to the title, in fact they won all the domestic trophies. De Bruyne played under 2000 minutes in total and less than 1000 in the league, didn't make a iota of difference somehow
 

Kwabs

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Most of it yeah. 98 points, beat arguably the best Liverpool side of all time - by definition one of the best teams ever in general - to the title, in fact they won all the domestic trophies. De Bruyne played under 2000 minutes in total and less than 1000 in the league, didn't make a iota of difference somehow
Arguably the best Liverpool side of all time? How so?
 

Pexbo

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Odds of them selling him this summer?