I don't watch enough Premier League to make that statement. I don't really care, different people, different styles. But calling him "dumb" because he doesn't act as you would like him to seems inappropriate.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Should be that would be some bottle job you'd have to admit. To not qualify after winning the first two games against the best two teams in the group would be a major feck up.No he isn't
Would you defend that?
Not a single person in this forum expected us to get 6 points from the first 3 games, so it's not a major feck up if we go out of this group, which was labelled the group of death. All we have to do is not lose against RBL and we're through, we were good value last night and didn't deserve the scoreline in the end.
He won't get sacked for exceeding expectations and then ultimately meeting them in the end.
Either that or he tries to be too smart, or he is just a ditherer. Some of the decisions he makes or fails to make are just completely inexplicable.
I personally believe he should have subbed Fred off at HT. However he chose to keep him on and what everyone is forgetting is that we were already 1-2 down by the time Fred went off. It wasn't the game changing moment everyone is gunning for it to be. The game changed when our forwards could not finish some incredible opportunities and then PSG scored with a lot of luck.
There is no guarantee that we would have clawed back the deficit if it were 11 vs 11. It is easy to put blame on the manager but his mistake wasn't the only defining moment of the game. Till that point, Fred & Scott really played well and helped us dominate PSG.
There is no guarantee that we would have clawed back the deficit if it were 11 vs 11. It is easy to put blame on the manager but his mistake wasn't the only defining moment of the game. Till that point, Fred & Scott really played well and helped us dominate PSG.
I think it was a game changing moment, their goal came out of nowhere and we were in control for large portions before that. The red card was more damning on the game than the goal was. If it was XI v XI after their goal, I reckon we'd have pulled it back, the way we were opening them up.
Ole found out last night. Awful game management, it's a complete distaster if we miss out on the knockout stage and are in the Europa league now. The subs and lack of changes hurt the team, didn't only react to PSG. Played an injured player too long and a player at high risk of getting sent off. Every fan knew Fred was off with one more mistimed challenge. 5 subs, with real options and he waits to after 69th minute. This lucky manager is being found out and is out of his depth. People still thinking he can still win big honours with United are not realistic. He's not getting the most out of the team. A better manager and we go further in the league and champions league, he'll be found it and will eventually end with him replaced. Sick of the the lack of consistency in performances, team selection, tactics and strategy. I want what's best for United being successful. Too many being loyal when they know it's doomed long term, it's painfully obvious. Just like the decision to keep Fred on that long.
PSG are weaker than ever, but still with Verratti, Neymar, Marquinhos and Mpabbe they can beat anyone. At home, two of those didn’t play, Neymar just came back from corona, we couldn’t have picked a better date to face them. As for Leipzig, they are maybe on par with Leicester and Everton. Actually, I am not sure many of those players would get into Everton’s team. Poulsen, Forsberg, no chance. Werner is gone, the very talented Klostermann is injured, Sabitzer was unfit in the first game and didn’t start - again, we couldn’t have picked a better date. As for Leipzig, perhaps one player would get into our team? Upamecano... Olmo would be a decent cover, same with Sabitzer, otherwise nothing interesting.
This isn’t a group of death, Leipzig are not what they used to be, far from it. If we cannot draw or beat them away, we have absolutely no business progressing from this group.
I agree, and I trust most of the players to show a mature performance against RBL and get us through.
However, last seasons finalists and semi-finalists make up our group, let's not forget that by saying they're 'not very good'.
So, you consider Jose and LVG as better managers? How far did they get in the CL?
Losing to PSG (Finalists) is being found out?
Lack of consistency in team selection? DDG, AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Telles, Fred, Bruno, Rashford start most games that is 8/11 players who play most games.
Ignore them. They just have an agenda at this point. There was nothing wrong with the selection, tactics or how we played. It was a very tight game that could have gone either way. Ole has held his hands up and said he probably should have subbed Fred off. However that result was down to bad finishing.
I think ole probably kept him on because he was playing very well. Frustrating game, really thought we played well.
We did. We've played a lot worse than that this season and won games. The performance and tactics were fine. The finishing wasn't sadly and of course Fred could have been taken off. But let's not forget we were already 2 1 down when he did finally go.
We are blaming the manager.. why? I get the games V Istanbul, Arsenal you have a look at the manager?
We play 5 at the back and its not the united way, we go attack and now all of a sudden we should have played 5 at the back? What nonsense.
Its as if Ole is not allowed to make a mistake? he has held his hand up and admitted it but Fred was one of our best players and the fault should be Fred's too. How are you head butting someone, maybe some fans would think it was a tactical decision from Ole.
The game was 2-1 when Fred got sent off, we should have scored, Martial had 2 very very good chances, at CL level you have to take them. Martial has been very good but in the biggest of games, he has fluffed his lines. Sevilla and CL he has not been able to take his chances.
Is that on Ole?
Jesus so now our fans are saying its ok even if we get knocked out.
How low can your standards go. If we get knocked out it isn't acceptable. Simple as.
How low can your standards go. If we get knocked out it isn't acceptable. Simple as.
But we beat the cl finalist la!
This has happened many many times in football
It's the Istanbul game that has done for us. Also it is on Ole if he persists with Martial, not that he has much choice. We really should have found a better striking option that Martial. I want at least 25 PL goals from my top striker to make us competitive. Then any goals coming from Bruno, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood are an nice extra which would make us even better. It doesn't half make you appreciate the strikers we had.
Depends what it's for. A booking for a foul can happen, but when he should have gone for an attempted headbutt, then he was on seriously dodgy ground. The fact Fred was obviously wound up, just made PSG's job easier. Suspect the referee knew he had made a mistake and took the easy option to put things right.
That wasn't a normal yellow, and PSG aren't your normal opponent. Context is absolutely everything.
Also VAR don't check yellow cards, its really, really stupid but them the rules unfortunately. Also I don't think if it was Fernandinho or whoever the headlines wouldn't be about VAR because (whilst again thats not what VAR gets used for) everyone is pretty much in agreement that Fred should have been sent off in the first half, so people just see it as righting a wrong an hour later.
Beg to differ. Yes, we would have definitely been more likely to pull it back with 11 players than 10, no question. However, football is a game of momentum and the 2nd goal rattled our players. If they don't score the 2nd goal, then Fred does not miscontrol the ball & need to go lunging into the challenge. I understand we are going into hypotheticals and there is no way for us to know what would have happened.
My simple point is that up to that point, we were playing really well and should have been ahead by 1 if not more. A large part of why we were playing well was to do with midfield duo & their energy. Without Fred, we may or may not have the dominance that we had in 2nd half.
Very good thread covering Oles failings in delaying making subs last night. He is often guilty of this.
This was where the game was lost for me.
This was where the game was lost for me.
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the Istanbul and Arsenal game is where I changed to Ole out. However; I am not going to sit here every game saying Ole out because lets face it he is our manager and has improved since then.
I am all for blaming him for those results but yesterday was not on him. Well, Martial scored 20 plus goals last season. You don't write someone off because they have hit a dip.
I agree, we are missing something, but Martial started on the left yesterday not CF so he has changed it.
Seems like you`re intentionally choosing not to look at the actual reality. Fred was VERY lucky to be on the pitch after that headbutt a sensible referee would have sent him off the yellow card he got by luck made him an easy target for PSG who knew he`s a naturally passionate player that gets himself stuck in. Was the 2nd yellow warranted? Maybe not. Should Utd and Ole have put themselves in a situation where countless fouls against Fred who was clearly playing on edge be constantly reviewed and risk going down to 10 men? Not a fecking chance in hell he should have been hooked off like how Jose hooked off Lamela at OT when it was clear a 2nd yellow was on its way and guess what? It won them the game
Nobody is expecting us to win the CL we simply want to see better decisions in in game management and more CONSISTENT progress which we aren`t getting despite Ole being in charge for over 100 games. Last night was tactical incompetence not a bad day in the office
There is no basis for saying this though, Fred got sent off virtually the same minute as the goal. Theres nothing to state our team was "rattled" after their goal.
Again this is a very bizarre claim. Fred lunging into a 50/50 is never dependent on whether we are at 1-1 or 2-1. That scenario could have played out in either scoreline, and he won the ball on top. It was a brain fart from Fred to go to ground and that's not a case of being rattled. He just had bad game in keeping his cool, he was giving niggling fouls in the first half too so that puts your claim to bed, as it was 1-1 then and we controlled the game.
Some pundit said about Martial doesn't seem to enjoy scoring goals. I am beginning to think there is something in that, he enjoys the goals, but not the pressure of having to produce every minute of every game. The top strikers would sell their granny to get a goal.
As you have 5 subs in the Champions League, it would have made sense to take Fred off before he got himself sent off.
Not in the 2nd half he didn't. Ole said they discussed this at half time & I agree that Fred showed a lot of restraint in the 2nd half. It's not too difficult to understand that immediately after you lose a goal, your concentration levels may go down and you are likely to do something rash.
Anyway, as I said at the beginning of the first post, I think Fred should have come off at HT but that was not the reason why we lost. That was on the strikers, especially Martial.
You don't have to be a master at player psychology to understand PSG came into the game trying to get either Fred or McTominay wound up and sent off. That was part of the game plan with that drama queen Neymar, Paredes and the midget Verratti surrounding the referee and screaming bloody murder at every tackle.
He didn't give away silly fouls for a 15-20 minute period? That doesn't mean he wasn't generally wreckless in the game. He was giving niggling fouls generally across his 70 minute appearance and only 1 of those minutes was where we were 2-1 down. So this idea that we were careless and rattled because of the goal, and that's what led to the red, is just something I can't agree with.
The game changing moment as you put it, would be Fred's red card rather than their goal. Their goal went against run of play when they were creating next to feck all before that. Whereas we had a couple of clear, open chances to just put them to bed.
Being reactive is Ole's 1st instinct, too many times over the last 2 years he reacted too late when it's obvious the team needed a change much earlier.
Tactics aside - why start martial over VDB. Then why pick Pogba to go on over VDB. Baffling. I knew we weee up against it with the initial lineup.
That martial rashford wing combo doesn’t work for me at all. Sorry but Ole does need to improve - can’t keep making the same mistakes.
That martial rashford wing combo doesn’t work for me at all. Sorry but Ole does need to improve - can’t keep making the same mistakes.
If I was Ole I’d have left Fred on like he did then look to withdraw him around the 70th minute.
They scored and the next minute he got sent off. Ole would have known Fred was on the referees radar and he’d look to even things up but you’d still not want to disrupt and change on the 46 minute.
I think a change around the 60-70 minute would have been fine however maybe the manager thought leaving him on was a risk worth taking
This is all great on hindsight but it’s a gamble that didn’t pay off. It’s incredibly fine margins, it’s 100 percent not tactical incompetence.
Also with regards to the early red card yes by the letter of the law he should have been sent off but surely they have to look at the fecking law I mean the other guy who put its head in to Fred’s face first, that’s got to be punishable.
They scored and the next minute he got sent off. Ole would have known Fred was on the referees radar and he’d look to even things up but you’d still not want to disrupt and change on the 46 minute.
I think a change around the 60-70 minute would have been fine however maybe the manager thought leaving him on was a risk worth taking
This is all great on hindsight but it’s a gamble that didn’t pay off. It’s incredibly fine margins, it’s 100 percent not tactical incompetence.
Also with regards to the early red card yes by the letter of the law he should have been sent off but surely they have to look at the fecking law I mean the other guy who put its head in to Fred’s face first, that’s got to be punishable.
But he outclassed PSG in Paris, so there we go.
What nonsense, so he didn't react within three minutes of a formation change and then we went behind and down to ten men and the game is completely different. He obviously wanted to keep Rashford on as he was killing them at the start of the 2nd half, even Robbie Savage could spot that! Apparently VDB was stripped off and ready to come on, most likely for Fred just before the red card (which wasn't even a foul), so he was ready to react just caught by a scabby set-piece goal and then poor Fred touch and then refereeing (though undoubtedly Fred should have been sent off first half). Personally, i would have hooked him at HT but our thinking at home is influenced by the coverage etc.. and we were playing so well that i can understand why Ole didn't change it. Ultimately it proved a mistake that cost us but we were already 2-1 down so you could argue the damage was already done.
The missed chances and slow start were more costly IMO.
The game was lost with the 2nd goal, which was very lucky (like their fist and ours tbf). We played very poorly last night for the first 15 but there were a lot of individual errors (misplaced passes etc...), once we settled i thought we controlled the game for large portions or at worse kept PSG well at bay until the goal/sending off.
PSG are a very good team despite what some people want to believe and if people had perspective and the ability to think about things beyond the immediate moment, they should realise how a game like last night shows how far this team has progressed and is still progressing under this manager. We are competing at an elite level again, not through ultra defensive counter-punching but going toe-to-toe with some of the best players in the world and this is not an aberration, three games in this group against PSG and Leipzig have shown this. It is a miles ahead of where we have been for some time.
Doesn't mean that PSG didn't learn something from that and did whatever it takes, fair or foul, to make sure it didn't happen again.
Not being able after 2 years to put a run of winning games together is being found out. Getting beat to shit teams at home like Palace. Ole is still stumbling on a team then changes it, he doesn't know his best team and formation and to get most out of our best players. Donny had been brilliant the last few games, dropped. Back to the protect the two slow defenders at the back with Fred and Scott. Last year when injuries happened I got it, this year he has real options. How can people still defend this shit. We would be competing this season with a better coach.
I'll tell you this, as shit as Lvg and Jose were. They would have the basic sense to sub Fred off earlier, use of one of five subs. React to two changes by them quickly and to sub a player with a shoulder injury. Go on defend it, I want to hear the excuses for his in game management. It's not AFTV with in or out childish thing with the manager every week. He's not good enough to be United coach long term, you know it. He's not winning the league with us, major honours. A big result gets you lot fooled every fecking time.
Something I first noticed about Ole while he was interim, i noticed it during the win vs Spurs. If you remember we scored but then in the second half the match shifted and Spurs were battering us. Granted we held on, De Gea MOTM, but Ole didn’t do anything to try and reduce the pressure on goal.
Since then it’s not changed. Ole only reacts to goals... he doesn’t react to obvious phases in the game. Eg he’ll react to a goal we concede (whether his subs makes sense is another discussion) but in the 20 minutes leading up to the goal where it’s obvious that a goal is coming he won’t do anything to try and prevent it.
Since then it’s not changed. Ole only reacts to goals... he doesn’t react to obvious phases in the game. Eg he’ll react to a goal we concede (whether his subs makes sense is another discussion) but in the 20 minutes leading up to the goal where it’s obvious that a goal is coming he won’t do anything to try and prevent it.
Not a chance. The goal was the pivotal moment. Well more importantly the goal because we'd missed our big chances.
We went from having a buffer if we'd scored and therefore pretty much through as PSG wouldnt score 2 if we were 2-1 up, to now chasing a game.
Fred sending off just solidified what we already knew was happening.
We didnt score when we had the chance and they punished us royally.
Lets just agree to disagree - the fact that we controlled large portions of the game and created so many open chances makes me think the pivotal moment was losing a man. I was confident in getting a goal back if it was XI v XI.
Put it this way, I'd rather we went 2-1 down and had XI v XI than see Fred get sent off and it being 1-1 for 20 minutes. To me, that makes Fred's moment more impactful on the game.
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