Why do you celebrate second (with very low points) and an Europa League final like this, when we bottled CL groupstages. A final lost to bloody Villareal. This guy is managing one of the most expensive squads in the world and this is all to show for it? 2nd and runner-up to Villareal, I dont know if it's praise or embarassment.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Yes because you are obsessed in Ole's thread.
They have been overhyped to become superstars. When was the last time an English player won Ballon d'Or?
When he’s gone I’ll be stress free. I’ve forgot all about Moyes reign.
You do realize you're focussing quite a bit on a one-off game right? Would you suddenly say the current French NT is horrible as they couldn't beat Hungary?
And we didn't somehow crash out in GS of CL. It was the fecking group of death and it was obvious that one upset result against Istanbul would seal the fate of any club. We literally played in the most number of games in the season in Europe. Our 1st mid-week break came in April and despite all this we came 2nd.
The issue with half the forum is that the rules that are applied for Ole are not applied for any other manager and it's only because he isn't a hipster manager.
Make changes in game - he doesn't know his best XI; do not make changes - He needs to learn to fully utlilize the side
Change formations acorss games - It wasn't necessary as we are better than x side and shouldn't be the ones adjusting to them; Play the same formation - He should learn from Nagelsmann and see how modern he is
Target and sign top players- He is relying on individual brilliance to save his job; Target lower level players- Why would top players even want to sign for him/lowering expectations
The point is that Ole may or may not be the answer, but I don't think there is any person on here who said that we'd finish 2nd this season and quite comfortably so. So, maybe appreciate the work he has done, and let him do his job next season. If he fails- by all means go ahead and sack him, but until then back the man
People talking about reaching EL final as something worthy to be mentioned when it's the fact we got a chance to reach such final thanks to our CL huge failure. We shouldn't have been in EL fecking final. We should have progressed in CL and got past the group to play with the other top teams, not to drop to EL and reach its final. Feck this final.
Where abouts in that post am I celebrating anything?
Do the players get a free pass from you?
Did fixture congestion never happen?
Was our pre-season ideal?
We have improved under Ole, and when that stops, I'll imagine the pressure will grow on him, maybe justifiably.
You outers have just planted your flags, and refuse to consider that he may be the best available man for the job, in spite of any evidence of progress, or at the very least, worthy of patience.
Second to City is going to be as good as any team can expect, with the hope of occasionally going one better. They are a bottomless pit of money.
Trying to underplay 2nd as "not good enough" doesn't make you look more ambitious as a fan. It makes you look clueless to anything beyond your own desires. Entitled by definition.
It won't be impossible to get the better of them, but it is not the metric to judge any manager, unless they are given the same resources.
Why I wasted my time writing that, I don't know. I doubt any of it will sink in.
Entitled drivel.
We were in the CL due to league position, and guess what. We'll be there again next season. For the first time since Fergie, consecutive CL, due to league position.
Will we win it?
Not with McFred and Lindelof, probably.
But that is the manager's fault for not turning them into Robson, Keane and Rio.
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You are 24/7/365 Ole's thread mate. It's pinned on your head already.
Drivel of someone who should be supporting a championship club rather than one of the biggest clubs in the world.
Ignore him bro. Just look at his post history. He goes from one extreme to another but somehow still retains this superiority complex. Pathetic flip flopping in his posts.
So not a bot then?
So if a player doesn't win the best player award, he isnt world class? Only one player wins the Ballon what about all the rest.
Scholes, Rooney, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Owen, Ashley Cole, Lampard, Beckham, were all world class in their positions just to name a few. None won the player of the year award.
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...did.
Shouldn't have and isn't the best of the bunch you mentioned - but he did win the Ballon.
Forget Ballon then, how many of those you listed were the best in their position during their career? Barring a couple, I don't think they were. As I said England has generally been seen by the ROW as a team one tier below the best teams at any given point in time. But English fans continue to over regard their teams and then get surprised at their performances during the tournaments (which I feel is mostly deserving). And then blame everything like manager, tactics, team coherence, selections, individual players etc. Its been going on for a long time and these Euros are no different.
What does this have anything to do with what I'm talking about?
I didn't say we should have won CL. I said we should have progressed through the group and played in KO stages alongside other top teams not dropping to EL and treat reaching its final as some sort of a great job.
You are talking about random points and trying to avoid what you can't reply on just to paint everything we did last season in good colors.
The fact is we got a chance to reach this EL final because of our huge failure in CL. Period.
Come the new season, the one thing I'd like to see is him placing trust in the players on the bench.
It likely doesn't inspire confidence when your manager leaves on underperforming and sometimes dismal players over you because he doesn't feel you'd offer more.
Really needs to allow them to have a go.
It likely doesn't inspire confidence when your manager leaves on underperforming and sometimes dismal players over you because he doesn't feel you'd offer more.
Really needs to allow them to have a go.
Unfortunately not.
You said we should have qualified for the later rounds, as if just by being Manchester United, means that the others in the group shouldn't bother turning up. It isn't a given, and some of the biggest teams and best managers have fallen at that hurdle.
Likewise, getting to a final means you have overcome all but one challenge in front of you.
What point do you think I have avoided replying to?
Raise it, and I'll respond.
Till now Ole's period at United is defined by steady improvement over time but his team's bottling at crucial stages. Last few CL games and EL final both typify this.
This kind of logic baffles me "We're not entitled to anything so it's fine that we crashed out of the group". Then people come here and complain the standards of fans didn't massively drop.
No it's not fine. Manchester United should have progressed through the group, and I don't care about our competitors in the group. I only care about us. This has nothing to do with what's our right and what's not. We were leading the group and needed one point out of our last 2 games to progress, or to defeat a shit Turkish side who were playing in CL for their first time ever in history and lost both home and away to the other 2 competitors in the group. We failed to do one of both. It's a huge failure no matter how much you try to paint it as if "we're not entitled to get out of the group because of our name". Even if it's indeed embarrassing for a big club of such statue to drop to EL from the group whenever it happens, it has nothing to do with it but more with the fact we were in complete control of the group and completely bottled it.
And every single big team who crashes out of the CL group didn't go and say "oh well, it's fine, we're not entitled to pass out of the group, enjoy EL". They treat as a huge failure for the statue and the name of the club. If PSG were the ones who had dropped out of the group they wouldn't have went on and said "eh ok, we're not entitled to get out of the group, other competitors are tough and all".
So yeah, reaching EL final is the bare minimum I'll expect from a big team who gets embarrassingly KOed from the group stage to this minor trophy. It's not a great job and we shouldn't have even played in EL this season.
Finally, you brought on a point about this squad not being able to win CL which is a point you brought out of your mind. No one talked about winning CL. We were talking about advancing through the CL group and just play in KO stages. That's what should have happened this season.
What are you rattling on about?!
I never said it is "fine that we crashed out at the group stage". I said it happens.
It happens because you don't achieve success just because of who you are.
Many things can coincide to stop you.
We are an ongoing project, not the finished article. We have weaknesses that affect the likelihood of success (in response to the question raised about new players being the answer).
Do you think the team is the finished article?
You then return to entitlement by stating,
reaching EL final is the bare minimum I'll expect from a big team who gets embarrassingly KOed from the group stage to this minor trophy.
Again, you have to earn that right. You don't just get there because you are a big club.
As for me mentioning weaknesses in the squad, particularly regarding CL pedigree;
1) supports my assertion that we are not the finished article, and need more quality in central defence and the midfield as a whole.
2) I can raise whatever I like. You don't get to decide what others do or don't reference or discuss.
So, pompous, self-important entitlement then.
That has to be worth a prize.
Pick anything from the bottom shelf.
Just because "it happens" doesn't make it a huge failure from our perspective considering our position in the group and what we needed to qualify. You're simply trying to pain a huge failure as a normal incident that "eh..can happen".
As for the EL final, yes, when a big team in CL crashes out from the CL, the least I can expect from them playing against much worse teams in quality is for them to reach the final, because this said team shouldn't have even dropped from Champions League to a Micky Mouse club, they should have progressed through.
So no, reaching EL final isn't something worthy to be mentioned as a good job. This team was good enough to progress into 16th round of CL and it's a big failure for them and the manager that they bottled it in such way. Every single big team that failed to get through the group didn't say "it happens" and moved on, they all considered it a big failure for their name.
The "entitled" logic is a good way to feel good about your failures as a club. As for being the "not finished project", not sure what does this have to do with just beating a shit Turkish side who are playing in CL for their first time in history. So we need to finish our project and continue on the rebuild to be able to defeat such Turkish team and get past the group ?
Did he? Forgot about that
Sometimes, you have a bad day, and it isn't always the manager's fault.
Ole didn't tell the entire defence to go 30 yards into the Turkish side's half, leaving Demba Ba in acres of space, on the halfway line.
He didn't tell them to leave a player in 20 yards of space, at the far post, for their second. Nor for Mata to surrend possession like a child.
Do you judge a manager on player brain-farts?
The team contained weak as feck back-up players, who were utilised during fixture congestion. It was a great illustration of lack of depth in the squad.
"But, but, it was Man United!"
Can Donny be made to run a midfield?
Can Mata be trained to outrun snails?
Can Tuanzebe be trained to play like a seasoned international?
They fecked up.
They must have forgotten who they played for.
Fergie's United might have been worthy of the expectation you extoll.
This is a club ravaged by time, Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho, not the late 2000's team.
Do we have a current player who gets into that side? Bruno, perhaps?
This summarizes the problem of a lot here. You want to basically throw the entire blame on the squad and the players, meanwhile the manager is blameless for such failures. No, it's the players who fecked up, not good enough, and forgotten who they played for, it's their problem, apparently not the manager at all, then, as funny as it sounds, you get annoyed when other posters do the same in the opposite direction and give the credit of the wins for the players only, like your post earlier in this page.
I mean if the players are going to get full blame for fecking up the CL group and Ole couldn't have done anything to prevent such mistakes, then I also have the right to say the players are the full reason for us finishing 2nd and reaching that EL final.
If you don't like it when people say it's all the players in the win, don't contradict yourself and say the manager is blameless and it's all the players when we can't beat a shit Turkish side or get one point out of last 2 games.
Ole's management of the Turkey game and the last 2 games in the group were terrible and he's a big reason why we fecked up this group when we were in complete control of the group. If it makes you feel better by throwing the entire blame on the players so, good for you, let other people give the full credit for the players and not the manager when we win then.
What are you on about?
Christ! You're tiresome.
I have neither claimed that all bad is down to the players, nor that all good is down to the manager.
It is a straw man of your own construct.
I have said we need better players in certain critical areas. Do you agree?
I have shown that individual errors resulted in us going out. No amount of spin, in any direction, alters those facts.
You are blaming the manager. The evidence, in front of your eyes, is that the players made mistakes that you wouldn't expect from even a third tier footballer.
Yet, you have the nerve to imply that I have "blindly chosen a side".
Thank you though, for reminding me why I don't come on here as often as I used to.
Except that's pretty much what you did, you threw the entire blame of us losing the Turkey game and crashing out of the CL group on the players and that Ole couldn't do anything to prevent such mistakes and that it was the players who fecked up. You didn't blame the manager for anything in these games in your post, even though his management of them was indeed terrible. No, you just, in a pretty lazy way, said it was the players' fault and nothing could have been done to them.
Oh buhu... We all missed you and your unconditional and encouraging support
Maybe get over yourself. If you don't want to discuss - don't discuss.
What kind of discussion do you expect if you go into the debate with BS like that? There was a poster we all know is critical of the manager, just like some other posters. He raises the thought, that the argument that we need better players to reach the next level is somewhat flawed because Southgate has quite a few of the aspired players and it still doesn't result in great results. Is this the best point to make? The most sophisticated and thorough analysis? Even a good comparison? Probably not but it was enough to get people like you out of your holes and continue your jihad. Well done.
If you consider our season as very difficult, how would you describe the season of City, Pool and Chelsea? I know what you mean and the fixture congestion was quite bad, but it is kind of a cheap shield because it affected other teams as well. So even if we were handicapped by I don't know 8%, City was handicapped by 5% and Liverpool by 15%. These are our competitors and we have to deal with them on the battle ground we are on. If many games and a problematic pre-season is a difficult season, then I think, we can expect such a season next year as well. Lets see, what happens if we get a few injuries to keyplayers...
We earned that 2nd place and it is something to be acknowledged, but lets not act as if the challenge was bigger than it was. And lets not act, as if this 2nd place weighs significantly more than CL-group exit and EL-final loss against an inferior team. It is all part of the season. It is progress, the extent is debatable but it surely isn't success. And "being the best team since SAF days" would be something we would laugh at seeing it on RAWK. The ancient glory days. If we want to keep laughing at them, we should do our best to not morph into them.
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@Verminator There isn't a need to make other opinions determine your actions in an open forum. Continue to make your point in support of the Team and Manager.
Often when I read opinion post on this forum, I would most time wish to parachute some posters into administrative positions and make them sweat it out making a decision based on a myriad of information at their disposal.
Ole achieved a second place and a EL final in a season fraught with certain factors and it was dismissed as a given. While the domestic competition facing similar challenges had to navigate them and came up short in comparison.
Like a poster said above the Team had its first midweek break in April, couldn't conduct a proper preseason and going deep in all competitions entered meant the Team where constrained on multiple fronts.
There isn't any supporter of the Team and Manager that doesn't view the Champions League Group exit as a failure. However, there is no use getting worked up over a spilled milk. Progress isn't linear and before a Team reaches the peak where they show consistency, they need to pass through troughs of failure.
Heck, even Guardiola just reached a final of Champions League in five seasons at Man City despite the riches and tactical superiority. Guardiola would know he made a mess of the final but I am sure after so much introspection would calm down view the scenario as a failure and rally round his players to give it a go the next season.
I hope and pray Ole succeeds here as the Coach of Manchester United, but if progress becomes hard to achieve and failure becomes the norm then he would and should be relieved of his job.
They are the World champions though. Once you’ve won something major, you’ll get more benefit of the doubt. A better example would have been France losing Euro 2016. They took their criticism and came back better. Can Ole do the same after his cup final failure? Remains to be seen.
That’s exactly why the team and manager get justified criticism. For allowing such a result and performance where PSG and Leipzig did not, home or away.
I support Solskjaer, and he’s done well in the Premier League. I back him, but not blindly- he must sort out the defense, set-pieces and the shocking starts to a lot of games. He’s going into this season up against 3 Champions League winning managers as a Europa League losing one. I wish him the best of luck.
I was in discussion. Sometimes you have to admit that it isn't worth it. Like yourself.Oh buhu... We all missed you and your unconditional and encouraging support
Maybe get over yourself. If you don't want to discuss - don't discuss.
What kind of discussion do you expect if you go into the debate with BS like that? There was a poster we all know is critical of the manager, just like some other posters. He raises the thought, that the argument that we need better players to reach the next level is somewhat flawed because Southgate has quite a few of the aspired players and it still doesn't result in great results. Is this the best point to make? The most sophisticated and thorough analysis? Even a good comparison? Probably not but it was enough to get people like you out of your holes and continue your jihad. Well done.
If you consider our season as very difficult, how would you describe the season of City, Pool and Chelsea? I know what you mean and the fixture congestion was quite bad, but it is kind of a cheap shield because it affected other teams as well. So even if we were handicapped by I don't know 8%, City was handicapped by 5% and Liverpool by 15%. These are our competitors and we have to deal with them on the battle ground we are on. If many games and a problematic pre-season is a difficult season, then I think, we can expect such a season next year as well. Lets see, what happens if we get a few injuries to keyplayers...
We earned that 2nd place and it is something to be acknowledged, but lets not act as if the challenge was bigger than it was. And lets not act, as if this 2nd place weighs significantly more than CL-group exit and EL-final loss against an inferior team. It is all part of the season. It is progress, the extent is debatable but it surely isn't success. And "being the best team since SAF days" would be something we would laugh at seeing it on RAWK. The ancient glory days. If we want to keep laughing at them, we should do our best to not morph into them.
You'll probably get promoted.
That is why I pine for days of old.
Let us give Ole a break for now at least.
Well said although I find his lack of rotation to be really frustrating. His signings and man management is spot on.
One-off results have literally been part and parcel of football since eternity. Banging on about how we lost a one-off game makes zero sense, and arguably makes the point of Ole-outers weaker especially when you're ignoring what happened in the other 60 games.
Hmm, that's a stupid argument if I'm being honest. It literally is the definition of an upset. I doubt you'd say that Rodgers is shit because they were upset against Newcastle when other teams managed to beat them? Literally every manager in the world has faced upsets. Football isn't some simulation game where the better side always ends up winning the game.
And I doubt any of the people here who support here support him blindly- as long as there is progress, we are backing him. If things go south, change him as the club is bigger than the manager
Look, I appreciate this place and its life long United fans. I started to follow only around 2006 or 2007, it is interesting to hear some of the stuff from the old days. But this shouldn't lead into a situation, that, in this case you, appear as if you consider your opinion as more valuable or worthy than others.
All we do is voicing opinions here and as we are only fans, all of them are just as worthless as the next one. Football has changed, the world has changed, nobody knows if the old patterns from the past even still apply these days. If Fergie would be as successful as he was in our glory days.
I don't like the flamewars around here where the same stuff gets repeated over and over and over but there are things, that always start the flames. They can be avoided. If you would like them to end, just do your part. Everybody here is fan for a different reason, everybody wants the best for the club but everybody sees different things to be adjusted. We don't have to agree but every opinion should be treated equally, even if we consider them as wrong.
What is the opinion of anybody else about that?
Personally I am happy to agree that the signings before Ole were mostly not great. And I think, the Bruno transfer is fantastic. But it is more fantastic as it could have been expected.He was mostly the most inform player in Europe for around a year or so, fitting our "unstructured" way of play like a glove.
Maguire was the best available solution at the point in time, I would have gone for him probably as well. But it isn't a great signing in my book: it was mega money and, considering we want to have a go at the opposition team and play on the front foot, the relatively slow Maguire is an odd choice. Especially considering to partner him with Lindelof. So we spent premium money to only be in a situation to spent mega money again. That makes it an alright transfer, but not a great one.
AWB more or less the same, for now a good transfer, but not a great one. To spend the kind of money we did on a fullback that would have been the best in the world 20 years ago is good, but these days, fullbacks have to be so much more than just defenders. AWB is young and I think he has gotten a bit more comfortable on the ball after Christmas so there is hope and the jury is still out and he still can become a great transfer but until now - a lot of money spent to be in a situation where we speak about adding a player there...again.
James was a cheap punt, just fine I guess. Not great, not shit. DVB hopefully at least the same. Even if his first season was pretty underwhelming. The two teenagers are shots for the future. Pretty expensive for potential I'd say but nothing I would criticize the manager for.
That for me makes the current manager alright for transfers. Which is better than what we got before. But I'd say there is pretty much room for improvement still.
Ive had a few months off to be honest. But I’m strapped in ready for the slander for the new season. I hope we get all his players so we can see him do a Lampard.
You need help.
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