Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[ROFLUTION]

Can't completely call it a mess / big feck up on Jose when he gave us 2nd place and won us titles. He played and bought players for the Jose way of playing football which was expected. He didnt buy players for the next manager's playing style which would also be totally ridiculous.

The inheritance is a mess because the two playing styles are very different and thereby also the gap and how much needs to change.

This "mess" is caused by Glazers/Woodward as they didnt hire a manager who would play a brand of football associated with Manchester United. Basically they didnt understand what United really was about, which is a bit mindboggling after so many years at the club.

 

[Wumminator]

Not really... We have been shit since Fergie left and turnover was up year after year.

I have literally just posted a thread with multiple links that show that we have spent hundreds of millions on dross. There's a link in the very first post that shows that while out turnover has gone up and up, our outgoings have gone up by a much higher amount in that same period.

Being shit and having more turnover does not mean we have been cheap. I am trying to post threads with evidence and data, I don't want lazy replies that make no sense.

 

[pascell]

Get outta here @Wumminator with that kind of positivity, it isn't allowed!

Fantastic post though mate!

 

[Wumminator]

Can't completely call it a mess / big feck up on Jose when he gave us 2nd place and won us titles. He played and bought playerd for the Jose way of playing football which was expected. He didnt bit players for the next manager's playing style which would also be totally ridiculous.

The inheritance is a mess because the two playing styles are very different and thereby also the gap and how much needs to change.

This "mess" is caused by Glazers/Woodward as they didnt hire a manager who would play a brand of football associated with Manchester United. Basically they didnt understand what United really was about, which is a bit mindboggling after so many years at the club.

Hang on, it's not just 'different playing styles' is it.
Mourinho had benched Pogba, sold Mikhi and Fred was nowhere to be seen. That is around 200 million pounds of players he had signed there.

 

[Wumminator]

Get outta here @Wumminator with that kind of positivity, it isn't allowed!

Fantastic post though mate!

Thank you mate, I don't want it to just be seen as 'positivist' though. While I am very happy with how our playing style has developed this season, I also think the figures included are eyeopening as to just how much of a mess we were in.

There's some basic facts that just can't be disputed. For Mourinho to have three years after LVG, double the wage bill, sign 400 million pounds worth of players and have contributed as much to our season as LVG is horrendous.

 

[Ban]

Mourinho bought Falcao after LVG did!

And they weren't shifted by him because he was gone. Rojo and Darmian signed for roughly 30 million. They haven't done well, but there wage and transfer fee combined is something that a club of our size can swallow up. Matic/Bailly signing for 80 million for example is a much bigger problem.

So what? Are we talking about Chelsea or United now?
Your dislike of Mourinho is clouding your judgement. All you're talking about is wage bill. Buying dross which you need to get rid of isn't a problem.. You said it yourself, we went for big names and LVG was a culprit in this too.

 

[devilish]

Seeing as Ole has only had 1 transfer window, his first pre-season and we're only 3 games into the season, it really answers itself. There is a big rebuilding job required and he's only getting started. We're there or thereabouts for top 4 and unless we start lead-ballooning down the table he's probably not going anywhere, and there isn't much point to all this panic.

The squad still has deficiencies and options in mid-field are limited but there are signs of improvement and the team are creating chances. You aren't going to see youngsters like Gomes or Garner thrown in at deep-end this early in the season. Ole said they'll start getting more minutes in Sep/Oct and most likely he's referring to blooding them in the Cups. If they do well there they'll start getting minutes in the PL. This is a sensible approach to Youth development.

If Ole was to start Gomes etc and it all went pear-shaped, it would be another knife in his back and potentially damage their confidence and set back their development.

Irrespective of what he does he will bear the responsibility of the club not strengthening the team in an adequate way. Ole could have shifted the blame on Woody. He chose to give the thumbs up instead

By playing Gomes instead of Jesse he would not sound hypocritical who keeps talking about kids only to play the old heads instead

 

[NinjaFletch]

My worry is that the 'slow rebuild' is counter productive if it costs us money and players next season, and I really worry for the long term futures of Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and McTominay if this season doesn't pan out.

They're all very young to have the level of expectation they have had loaded onto them, be that to be starters or to contribute to the first team, and they might conceivably not be ready. Loading expectation onto them when they're not ready risks ruining careers.

More generally, I've seen little to suggest this club has a plan for nigh on 6 years so I'm very sceptical of any attempts to try and explain anything this club does as being part of some plan rather than more proof of our incompetence. In fact, I've been really racking my brains to think of any other club that has tried to cull their first team squad so drastically and rely on teenagers and I can't. Given how we're run off the pitch I don't think that's a good sign.

 

[Jim Beam]

All good, but the team that is now in his hands isn't good enough. That's not the way rebuilding should work.
Hell, if we start to struggle a lot when games start to pile in it will be difficult to asses how much of that is even Ole fault as i think any manager would have difficulties with this team. You think the board (forget fans on here for a second, they are meaningless) will not throw him away and will give him time? That's naive.

 

[Wumminator]

All good, but the team that is now in his hands isn't nearly good enough. That's not the way rebuilding should work.
Hell, if we start to struggle a lot when games start to pile in it will be difficult to asses how much of that is even Ole fault as i think any manager would have difficulties with this team. You think the board (forget fans on here for a second, they are meaningless) will not throw him away and will give him time? That's naive.

I think we will struggle. There’s absolutely no doubt. However, after the transfer window has closed we have recouped about 70 million and also slashed our wage bill. I like to think that is reinvested in January somewhat and we go into next year primed to compete.

 

[Ban]

Ed is taking all of us for a ride with that rebuilding stuff.

 

[kps88]

All good, but the team that is now in his hands isn't good enough. That's not the way rebuilding should work.

That's the very definition of a rebuild. If the team was already good enough after one transfer window then there would be nothing left to rebuild. Whether we give him time to complete the rebuild is another matter.

 

[Ban]

I think we will struggle. There’s absolutely no doubt. However, after the transfer window has closed we have recouped about 70 million and also slashed our wage bill. I like to think that is reinvested in January somewhat and we go into next year primed to compete.

If you think we're buy anyone in January you're naive. Also if results go south Ed will gladly throw Ole under the bus.

 

[Withnail]

Irrespective of what he does he will bear the responsibility of the club not strengthening the team in an adequate way. Ole could have shifted the blame on Woody. He chose to give the thumbs up instead

By playing Gomes instead of Jesse he would not sound hypocritical who keeps talking about kids only to play the old heads instead

Ole should publicly blame Ed and create a media controversy and a bad atmosphere around the club

 

[pascell]

Thank you mate, I don't want it to just be seen as 'positivist' though. While I am very happy with how our playing style has developed this season, I also think the figures included are eyeopening as to just how much of a mess we were in.

There's some basic facts that just can't be disputed. For Mourinho to have three years after LVG, double the wage bill, sign 400 million pounds worth of players and have contributed as much to our season as LVG is horrendous.

Absolutely, it's sort of a changing in the tide with United, that we won't allow players to underperform whilst paying them what they want. I'm glad that Ole is doing something about it and Woodward wouldn't be sanctioning these sales if he didn't believe Ole could turn it around completely.

We were getting nothing out of Sanchez, whilst paying him an astonishing amount of money each week. His wage is also a massive hindrance to us when negotiating new deals with our players who do perform.

The trend of spending masses without getting a return for our money had to stop somewhere, plus we can't ignore the young players we have coming through, they're too good to ignore and they'll have a great chance of staking a claim in this team now.

 

[Enigma_87]

Funny how Mourinho is blamed on the wage structure, money spent, yet compared to other managers they have no part in the process.

The board is the same since the day Moyes was appointed. So you either take all managers accountable for the transfer business or none of them.

 

[MrBrightside1989]

Ole definitely needs time. No benefits in getting rid now and being back to square one. Hopefully he can prove to be efficient and effective in his tactical decisions and motivation and we may hold our own and make the top 4, it will be a challenge though.

On the Mourinho front- he did bring success, getting second in the league, winning the EL was a big achievement considering the squad be took over and the squad he left behind. We know he didn't get the players he really wanted? We will never know if he would have been more successful with maguire, William, perisic etc. I don't think he really wanted either Pogba or Sanchez.

The mismanagement of wages should not be blamed on him though. That must surely be an issue for Ed Woodward and the clubs board.
Manager and scouting team identify players, Woodward leads negotiation.

 

[Wumminator]

Funny how Mourinho is blamed on the wage structure, money spent, yet compared to other managers they have no part in the process.

The board is the same since the day Moyes was appointed. So you either take all managers accountable for the transfer business or none of them.

No one else exploded the wage bill. LVG kept it relatively stable. And they are all accountable, it’s just that Moyes and LVG did a better job in the transfer market.

 

[Enigma_87]

No one else exploded the wage bill. LVG kept it relatively stable. And they are all accountable, it’s just that Moyes and LVG did a better job in the transfer market.

Jose wanted Maguire and bunch of other players on the back of 2nd place finish and 2 cups the season before - he was doing something right.

Again how is he blamed on the wage structure yet other managers are not? He wanted Sanchez, but so did City, that doesn't mean he can sign off half a million in wages to get him. That's what the board do. Jose like Moyes, LvG and Ole is not the negotiator when it comes to value and signing players, so I ask again how you can blame the wage structure and signings on single manager and not on all, give than the same board operated in all cases?

 

[Jim Beam]

That's the very definition of a rebuild. If the team was already good enough after one transfer window then there would be nothing left to rebuild. Whether we give him time to complete the rebuild is another matter.

Can you show me some examples of getting rid so much players in attack and midfield without replacing them? In any club or during Ferguson years? Forget the class of 92 as they were anomaly and Fergie already had enough credit to go with it.

 

[Wumminator]

Can you show me some examples of getting rid so much players in attack and midfield without replacing them? In any club or during Ferguson years? Forget the class of 92 as they were anomaly and Fergie already had enough credit to go with it.

No one else has had so much dross to get rid of at once. Can you find me a team that had a wage bill so unsuitable to the league place?

 

[pocco]

Moyes was not here long enough to do lasting damage.

LVG took us forward as a club and won our first silverware post Ferguson.

In a time when money in football absolutely exploded, we trusted it to Mourinho who wasted more money than any other football manager. He has left us worse off.

If you include transfers and wage bill, we spent roughly 600 million for Mourinho’s tenure and ended up with Lindelof and Pogba as first team players. Lindelof was at fault for the goal this weekend so I’m not sure how long he will last.

Why don't you stop being so overly negative after one mistake. He's been great for months before hand.

 

[Jim Beam]

No one else has had so much dross to get rid of at once. Can you find me a team that had a wage bill so unsuitable to the league place?

AC Milan during their fall from grace.

 

[Wumminator]

Jose wanted Maguire and bunch of other players on the back of 2nd place finish and 2 cups the season before - he was doing something right.

Again how is he blamed on the wage structure yet other managers are not? He wanted Sanchez, but so did City, that doesn't mean he can sign off half a million in wages to get him. That's what the board do. Jose like Moyes, LvG and Ole is not the negotiator when it comes to value and signing players, so I ask again how you can blame the wage structure and signings on single manager and not on all, give than the same board operated in all cases?

No manager gets everything they want. Pep wanted Sanchez and couldn’t get him. That’s an example you give right there. Unfortunately, Pep got most of his transfers right. We got ours dreadfully wrong.

The manager at our club identifies the signings. They’re all to blame, but again, Jose did by far the worst job.

 

[Wumminator]

Why don't you stop being so overly negative after one mistake. He's been great for months before hand.

I don’t really rate him massively. He’s good enough though.

 

[roonster09]

If Jose got what we wanted, we would have added Perisic, Willian, Boateng and few more shit old players, would have lost Martial and maybe Pogba too this season.

 

[pocco]

I don’t really rate him massively. He’s good enough though.

You don't like others being negative but you feel you can be if it's somebody that you don't like? You're just a hypocrite mate. You try to come across as a super positive supporter but you're just like everyone else...you have your opinions, which you're entitled to.

It's also worth pointing out that a) Jose didn't negotiate fees for any players, simply gave a list b) he didn't negotiate wages and c) there are some rumours that he didn't agree to some of our signings, hence his 'I'm now only a coach' comments.

The real problem lies higher up. It's obvious for anyone to see.

 

[Enigma_87]

No manager gets everything they want. Pep wanted Sanchez and couldn’t get him. That’s an example you give right there. Unfortunately, Pep got most of his transfers right. We got ours dreadfully wrong.

The manager at our club identifies the signings. They’re all to blame, but again, Jose did by far the worst job.

You can blame the manager for those who he identified, but not for the value he bought him for or the wages they are on - that's not his business. No manager has 100% record, not even Fergie.

If Moyes was the manager Pogba probably wouldn't have been here, Lindelof also is on him and was our best defender last year, yet you put only the negatives on him. As far as results go - finishing 2nd end winning 2 cups are the best we did since Fergie was gone.

 

[Wumminator]

You don't like others being negative but you feel you can be if it's somebody that you don't like? You're just a hypocrite mate. You try to come across as a super positive supporter but you're just like everyone else...you have your opinions, which you're entitled to.

It's also worth pointing out that a) Jose didn't negotiate fees for any players, simply gave a list b) he didn't negotiate wages and c) there are some rumours that he didn't agree to some of our signings, hence his 'I'm now only a coach' comments.

The real problem lies higher up. It's obvious for anyone to see.

I probably am a hypocrite. I’m only posting my opinions. I’m not some ultimate judge of everything football.

I just think I’ve shown here how disastrous Mourinho was.

 

[Raw]

Totally agreed. I was initially all for the Jose signing as I thought it would bring us the title again, but he didn't and all he brought were tinpot trophies, inflated wages and horrible football. I'll always appreciate the highs of his reign but his arrival was a step backwards.

Ole is a step in the right direction. Whether or not it'll work out we don't know, but he's laying foundations that we can be proud of and hopefully if a next manager is needed then it'll be someone with an attacking philosophy. They'll find it easier to implement their ideas as opposed to signing a negative manager who ends up gutting half the squad yet again.

With how dominant City and Liverpool are, having Jose and his football would never get us close.

If Jose got what we wanted, we would have added Perisic, Willian, Boateng and few more shit old players, would have lost Martial and maybe Pogba too this season.

Exactly. People always mention Maguire but they never mention the absolute dross we were linked with. Very short sighted signings that could have got us more trophies but overall puts us more in the shit.

 

[R'hllor]

I really thought certain type of people died out during 90s, similar crap just different name.

 

[Wumminator]

You can blame the manager for those who he identified, but not for the value he bought him for or the wages they are on - that's not his business. No manager has 100% record, not even Fergie.

If Moyes was the manager Pogba probably wouldn't have been here, Lindelof also is on him and was our best defender last year, yet you put only the negatives on him. As far as results go - finishing 2nd end winning 2 cups are the best we did since Fergie was gone.

If Mourinho identifies players who are inevitably going to cost a lost and massively inflate our wage bill... that is on him.

Did he think that Sanchez would be cheap? Did he think signing Pogba would be easy? Did he think signing Mikhi/Fred/Bailly/Dalot/Matic would not impact his wage bill?

 

[roonster09]

Exactly. People always mention Maguire but they never mention the absolute dross we were linked with. Very short sighted signings that could have got us more trophies but overall puts us more in the shit

I don't expect them to either, they worship Jose so they can't see anything bad about Jose.

 

[Jim Beam]

You can blame the manager for those who he identified, but not for the value he bought him for or the wages they are on - that's not his business. No manager has 100% record, not even Fergie.

If Moyes was the manager Pogba probably wouldn't have been here, Lindelof also is on him and was our best defender last year, yet you put only the negatives on him. As far as results go - finishing 2nd end winning 2 cups are the best we did since Fergie was gone.

That is also correct. It is plain wrong to put the whole mess only on one person, especially for the things he didn't even directly influence. But, I guess it is easier to look at things that way.

 

[Enigma_87]

If Mourinho identifies players who are inevitably going to cost a lost and massively inflate our wage bill... that is on him.

Did he think that Sanchez would be cheap? Did he think signing Pogba would be easy? Did he think signing Mikhi/Fred/Bailly/Dalot/Matic would not impact his wage bill?

No it's not. The club has wage structure. They vetoed him on Perisic and Maguire, they could've easily do the same on Sanchez, Fred, Matic etc if they thought the mechanics of the deal don't work for them.

He can only identify targets. Those targets might have been his 4th/5th/6th choice depending on who wanted to come and play for us. He doesn't negotiate the deals or takes the decision to buy that player for X amount or he does?

The board was the same all the time so you either blame all the managers for the mess or non, can't have it both ways.

 

[Wumminator]

No it's not. The club has wage structure. They vetoed him on Perisic and Maguire, they could've easily do the same on Sanchez, Fred, Matic etc if they thought the mechanics of the deal don't work for them.

He can only identify targets. Those targets might have been his 4th/5th/6th choice depending on who wanted to come and play for us. He doesn't negotiate the deals or takes the decision to buy that player for X amount or he does?

The board was the same all the time so you either blame all the managers for the mess or non, can't have it both ways.

What do you mean by your bottom paragraph? Of course all managers should be blamed. However none of the managers left such a bad mark as Jose.

Mourinho obviously did abysmally in the transfer market and as a result we are in a mess. If you want to alleviate him of any blame saying “the board negotiated contracts” that’s on you, but I then expect you to never complain about a board vetoing targets.

 

[lysglimt]

Thank you mate, I don't want it to just be seen as 'positivist' though. While I am very happy with how our playing style has developed this season, I also think the figures included are eyeopening as to just how much of a mess we were in.

There's some basic facts that just can't be disputed. For Mourinho to have three years after LVG, double the wage bill, sign 400 million pounds worth of players and have contributed as much to our season as LVG is horrendous.

You should be reported to the admin for trying to be positive

Generally agree with what you said. But my main reason for sticking with Ole - even if the results don't come is the youth. Right now Everything below the first-team looks the best it has been in 20+ years. In 2-3 years we will probably have 5-6 first team players from our own youth set-up, who will strengthen the club, and save us a ton of money. It's clear that McKenna, OGS, Carrick and Butt see Eye to Eye and work in the same direction. Replacing OGS now could risk this, as we might get another Mourinho in - a manager more inclined to sign experienced stars.

So - as long as OGS sign players like James and AWB who will be good for us in the long run - we should accept some poor results in the first season. If he gets in young, talented players combined with promoting youth and still don't get results or progress - of course his job will be under scrutiny. But give him a season at least

 

[Wumminator]

You should be reported to the admin for trying to be positive

Generally agree with what you said. But my main reason for sticking with Ole - even if the results don't come is the youth. Right now Everything below the first-team looks the best it has been in 20+ years. In 2-3 years we will probably have 5-6 first team players from our own youth set-up, who will strengthen the club, and save us a ton of money. It's clear that McKenna, OGS, Carrick and Butt see Eye to Eye and work in the same direction. Replacing OGS now could risk this, as we might get another Mourinho in - a manager more inclined to sign experienced stars.

So - as long as OGS sign players like James and AWB who will be good for us in the long run - we should accept some poor results in the first season. If he gets in young, talented players combined with promoting youth and still don't get results or progress - of course his job will be under scrutiny. But give him a season at least

Absolutely agree. Belter of a post mate.

 

[Ban]

I don't expect them to either, they worship Jose so they can't see anything bad about Jose.

It's funny though, a year after we get him for even more money. That's just a proof Ed has no plan or idea whatsoever.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You should be reported to the admin for trying to be positive

Generally agree with what you said. But my main reason for sticking with Ole - even if the results don't come is the youth. Right now Everything below the first-team looks the best it has been in 20+ years. In 2-3 years we will probably have 5-6 first team players from our own youth set-up, who will strengthen the club, and save us a ton of money. It's clear that McKenna, OGS, Carrick and Butt see Eye to Eye and work in the same direction. Replacing OGS now could risk this, as we might get another Mourinho in - a manager more inclined to sign experienced stars.

So - as long as OGS sign players like James and AWB who will be good for us in the long run - we should accept some poor results in the first season. If he gets in young, talented players combined with promoting youth and still don't get results or progress - of course his job will be under scrutiny. But give him a season at least

Why is it inherently a good thing to chuck youngsters into a sink or swim environment rather than introduce them more gradually?