Yes and what was your opinion at the time when Puel was still there?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Yea because while around 30% of fans already saw how inept Ole is, you have already started putting 100% of the blame to the squad.
"Silence fills the room"
So what actually makes them a better run club? I hear this a lot but I’m always confused.
Besides sacking managers when the time is right. How would Rodgers struggle here compared to his current management?
November 19th
I hadn't seen much of Maddison then to comment, Tielemans came in January just before Rodgers both key parts of what makes their midfield better than ours.
I was blaming the squad when Mourinho was here. Plenty of posts saying I didn't expect better results with the same players under a different manager.
You're arguing with the wrong person if you want to push the 'everyone has changed their opinion on the squad' angle.
Exactly. People are trying to push the idea any team doing better than us is Just because they have better squad. As I said in other thread, it's like we have the best manager in the world and thus reached the conclusion this is the best that can be achieved with these players : to struggle to finish top 6.
The most obvious one is they are able to find replacements or quality in key positions, while we aren't. We haven't had a RW for years, we're playing without an established DM because the last one we bought was already shot, we didn't have the sense to identify LB as a potential problem position, etc. Basically if our manager doesn't do it for us, we're fecked.
From what I've seen with Leicester, they've been very proactive and calculative with their purchases, probably because they're not as rich so are forced to make wiser decisions. Ndidi replaced Kante, Evans and Maguire for Huth and Morgan, Chilwell for Fuchs and Ricardo for Simpson, Tielemans to add quality, etc. Unless you attribute all these signings to the manager, which I can't since they've been making these sorts of transfers for a while now regardless of the manager.
And that good decision making isn't only seen in player transfers, it bleeds over to other areas of the club.
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With all this talk of “transfers windows” as if football management progress is 100% contingent on a manager getting his own players.
Leicester sold Maguire for £80m in 2019.
His spot is now taken by Söyüncü who was signed by Puyel in 2018 and made only 6 appearances last summer...
So can we at least stop with the “needs x amount of transfer windows” myth started by the manager’s friends
Leicester sold Maguire for £80m in 2019.
His spot is now taken by Söyüncü who was signed by Puyel in 2018 and made only 6 appearances last summer...
So can we at least stop with the “needs x amount of transfer windows” myth started by the manager’s friends
Not sure what that means, is it the date Ole turns into SAF?
2018
Maybe the myth that players signed are 100% on the manager's say so should stop first. Maybe long term planning is useful? Just a thought.
True. Hindsight is a good thing it seems
The problem here is not only putting OLE in hot seat but keep on insisting on UTD way and how we give chances to youth OR keeping players associated with club for a long time like young, Jones,Mata etc
These days there is no guarantee our academy always gets the cream like in the past as clubs like city,Liverpool appeals more to the youngsters.
As a result,we are still banking on players like Lingaard, SMT, Rashford, Perrera etc.
I remember Jose cleared lot of dead wood and bought it well during his second stint at Chelsea but he couldn’t dare to do that at UTD and kept players like young and Lingard.
What we need is not a manager so attached to the club but who can make right decisions on players
These days there is no guarantee our academy always gets the cream like in the past as clubs like city,Liverpool appeals more to the youngsters.
As a result,we are still banking on players like Lingaard, SMT, Rashford, Perrera etc.
I remember Jose cleared lot of dead wood and bought it well during his second stint at Chelsea but he couldn’t dare to do that at UTD and kept players like young and Lingard.
What we need is not a manager so attached to the club but who can make right decisions on players
They had a shite manager, and we finished 6th after a ludicrous run at a time, spurred by a new manager bounce. We obviously have some players that on paper outshine theirs, but the majority of the forum has been talking about how bad our squad is for years. I don't think Maddison is better than Pogba, but he is very good, and Ndidi is at least on par with Herrera(obviously they aren't the exact same type of player).
They have players of a sufficient level in basically all areas, whereas we have some serious gaps in quality that cause us major issues. If you objectively looked at their first 11 and ours at the moment, not taking into consideration future potential etc., I think it's 50/50 for who I would take from us/them, but the main thing is those that are left behind in that decision, I think the one's from Leicester far outshine our players. Do you not think Ole would be doing better with their first 11 this season?
People have been talking about how our squad is bad in comparison to the other top 6, not in comparison to Leicester and other midtable teams at this time. In fact there were many people convinced worse teams are doing better than us and look more coached.
The fact we have a worse squad with less options now than last season means whatever rebuilding job we have been doing, it is just bad.
It's not about Evans being an amazing player, it's about him being of the required standard necessary. I don't think anyone ever thought Evans was clearly not good enough for us, just very injury prone, and liable to have the odd howler.Funny seeing a player who has been clearly not good enough for us (Evans), everyone wanted to get rid of him and now getting praised non stop as being better than what we haveIf we switched squads with Leicester I have absolutely no doubts you would be saying they have a better squad. The main difference I can see between them and us is that they have a clearly better manager who makes the team look better while ours make it look much much worse.
We have basically added 3 to our starting 11, I wouldn't call it bad. I don't think it would have been realistic to expect much more in 1 transfer window. We also got rid of some of the shitebags that everyone wanted rid of. I don't think Ole is doing a great job, but I would like to at least see him given another opportunity to bring in some players, to see how he can have the team playing without the gaps we have at the moment. CL is a write off this season unless we win the Europa, so I think he should be given some more time.
Moyes has taken a lot of stick, but in reality Moyes probably never had a chance. First of all he took over a team of aging players where the majority of them either had peaked or were pretty close to peaking
Evra was 32, Vidic was turning 32 a few months later, Ferdinand was 34, RvP was 30, Rooney was only 28 but had probably already peaked. Carrick was 32, Rafael was only 23 but always injured. Nani was only 26 but had the worst career of his life behind him and in reality had also probably peaked. Fletcher had being diagnosed with a chronic illness which meant the end of him at top-level. Basically the entire first-11 was past it or always injured. Of course Moyes didn't make it better by signing Mata and Fellaini - but I am not really sure it would have made a difference.
Add to that, Ferguson had been here so long, it probably was impossible for these players to adapt to something new overnight.
I am not saying things would have been different under other circumstances with Moyes - but in hindsight I genuinely believe that regardless of whoever took over after Ferguson, they would have failed.
The one major mistake Ferguson did in his time as United-manager was that he failed to get in the right players to replace his aging squad. Maybe that was because Glazers didnt allow enough spending, we will never know. But the fact remains - that behind the core (who all were in their late 20s and early 30s) - we had Cleverley, Welbeck, Kagawa, Buttner, Jones, Smalling, Nani, Young - and if you look at what they have achieved afterwards, they weren't good enough
And I'll admit it - I didn't see it at the time. I thought we had a good squad and that Moyes should have done better (and he probably should have) - but Ferguson should have broken up that team 1-2 years earlier. By the time he retired, that team was finished. And it actually says a lot about Ferguson that he managed to get that team to be champions - but had he stayed on 1 more season, things would have been worse, even for Ferguson.
But could Moyes have turned it around if he had been given 6 years as you say ? No - because I felt his tactics were wrong and because the players hated him. As I have said before, the key for me whether to keep a manager or not is just that - the players. As long as the players fight for their managers it can turn around - the second they don't - that's when you have to get rid of him. And at the end - the players didn't fight for Moyes, just like they didn't do for Mourinho. They are still fighting for OGS, and the players seem happy..and that is one of the main reasons I Believe he will turn it around with 1-2 new signings.
Not everyone hits the ground running, plenty of good managers have had rough starts at a club, and plenty of of mediocre ones have had brilliant ones. In some cases you see a manager having an instant impact, in other cases you dont really see the fruits of their labor until 1-2 seasons have passed.
If it had been the case that we were a decent side with a squad that was young, hungry and talented, a decent leadership and good structure it would be a different story. We were not though, the squad was a trainwreck, a useless CEO running the show, morale was a rock bottom, fitness levels were shite and there were plenty with questionable attitudes among the players. It was a complete shitshow from top to bottom
Take AC Milan as an example, they were a fantastic side not to long ago with a rich history, huge fanbase yadayadaya, but they are a horribly run club with an utterly insane owner. They last won the league in 10/11 under Allegri and they had a fantastic core of players including the likes of Nesta, Thiago Silva, Pirlo, Gattuso, Van Bommel, Boateng, Inzaghi, Seedorf and Zambrotta. The following season they ended up 3rd and then they sacked Allegri midseason the following year being 11th in the table. Must mean Allegri is clueless right? I mean, he took a objectively fantastic team from 1st to 11th, what a muppet !
No. Despite that 10/11 Milan side having a fantastic group of players, most of those players were at the very ends of their career and should have had decent replacements lined up, but since the club lacked leadership, infrastructure and direction from the top that never happened. The following years they did one poor transfer after the other and had no less than 9 managers from 2014-2019, thinking that simply changing managers would solve everything when the squad was getting progressively worse and the infrastructure around the manager was completely lacking. I dont know if any of these 9 managers they've had in the last five years would have been the right one to take Milan back to glory, but none of them really got the chance either
Half a year after Allegri was sacked from Milan for supposedly doing a bad job he was hired by Juventus, a club that is well known for being a incredibly well run club, with a fantastic scouting network and he won 5 league titles in a row. Coincidence? City have not won 4/8 PL titles the last 8 years because they've had the best managers, most of it is down to them having done massive investments in both squad and club infrastructure and being properly run from top to bottom.
Ours isn't a case of a well run club with a good squad that was simply looking for a manager to take us to the next level. Yes, Jose managed second in 17/18, hes probably the best in the world at exactly that, but his style of management is not sustainable either over longer periods. Jose himself called it "his greatest achievement" and if Liverpool, Spurs or Chelsea had actually turned up that year i highly doubt we would have placed that high on the table
In my opinion, the Rumenicke rumors (if true) are the biggest news we've had in a decade, because that means we can finally have someone at the top who can oversee the rebuilding process and do a proper job. Ole isn't the best manager in the world, but hes not the main problem. And even if Ole turns out to be the wrong man for the job there is little point in sacking him mid season as it only puts the next one in line in a really tricky position
Celtics results are much better this season than they were in Rodgers last season in charge. Rodgers actually received a lot of criticism for their horrible performances in Europe which are much better this season.
As for Lampard pushing Derby towards promotion ? Derby were exactly as good under Lampard, as they were the season before Lampard. Derby ended 6th with 75 points before Lampard. They ended 6th with Lampard on 74 points. So he didn't do poorly, but it's not like ha transformed them a lot either.
Evans was a very good player - who totally lost his confidence under LvG. And when he finally got his chance after injuries he probably had the worst game of his career. So yeah - I agree with you. But LvG probably destroyed Evans more than anything.
Fully understandable there but I don’t see how this is a process issue. If things are to be believed.. the manager gets the final say. Therefore we don’t get a Tielemans because the manager identifies and wants a different target. The less say we give the manager I feel you would find the less money we actually spend. Harry Maguire being a perfect example.. it’s seem very clear he was our number 1 or 2 target and that came at a ridiculous price. If it was left up to our requirement to decided we would have probably decided to stick with Axel or spend half that money on a player from Europe.
I’m not trying to continuously blame the manager but I feel all Manchester United’s ‘requirement’ mistakes have came from too much trust in our managers. Yes the board don’t help with negotiations but every board bare a Chelsea have continuous summer failures in the market. Especially at the top end. You think Barca fans are happy they don’t have Neymar?
It wouldn't matter if it was Rodgers, Solskjaer, Fergie, Pep Klopp, we have the players of a team that are only good enough to fight at best for 5-6 place.
Maguire was no doubt expensive, but considering we also sold Lukaku our net spend was not really that high compared to what LvG and Jose was allowed. If money is the reason we did not sign for example a CM, then we are truly fecked because then this rebuild will never come to a close
A) and we're not doing even that.
B) While no manager would make this bunch title contenders, a quality manager actually can get more out of a team than they are supposedly worth. We get less.
I was never in favour of sacking the manager, but previous managers have been fired for a lot less.
Ole needs to go on a run of 6 or 7 games winning to show he still deserves another window.
Ole needs to go on a run of 6 or 7 games winning to show he still deserves another window.
It's fecking hilarious how quickly narratives change on here. This place was convinced Mourinho was shackling our players this time last year and that we needed a manager to unlock said shackles in order for us to fulfill our potential. It took all of 10 days and 3 results for the same people to gloat about their opinions.
Fast forward just a few months and now our squad is amongst the worst in the league and the team in 2nd place is significantly better than us whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that they were incredibly poor last year till they sacked their manager.
Also, I'm sick and tired of Ole. Ultimately, him being a legend means feck all when he's ruining the sport so many of us love whilst going to sleep every night knowing he's being paid millions for his incompetency.
I was speaking to a United supporting mate last night who's Ole In, and asked him this simple question:
'If David Moyes was in charge right now and was saying it was a long-term process and he needed 3-4 more transfer windows while we are sat midtable, would you want to stick with him?'
He said no. Ole is literally in the job because he used to play for us, absolutely no other reason. Certainly not football related reasons. Any non-United man would have been fired after the Newcastle game.
'If David Moyes was in charge right now and was saying it was a long-term process and he needed 3-4 more transfer windows while we are sat midtable, would you want to stick with him?'
He said no. Ole is literally in the job because he used to play for us, absolutely no other reason. Certainly not football related reasons. Any non-United man would have been fired after the Newcastle game.
Well 5th or 6th is better than 14th
Besides, Sheff U are 5th and their squad is way worse than ours on paper.
My main point was that while we might not have the best manager in the world, we need a manager who can operate under the poor conditions Man Utd give him. For instance, when Rodgers had poor buys at Liverpool, he failed massively and looked clueless. however, with clubs like Celtic and Leceister where he doesn't need to worry that much about that, he's looking better.
That's why I said in my initial post that all these comparisons are not that relevant, as the conditions are not the same. We need a manager who can manage current Man Utd, not any fancy manager who will come here and wilt due to the lack of support he will no doubt face.
In fact, you've hit the nail on the head that we operate differently as a club, thus, either our managerial requirements must be different as well, or a change needs to be made at the organizational level before we start to go after normal managers.
Completely different situation, it's not just about what Ole is saying, it's a combination of him talking about all of the things we have been asking for for years, and seeing glimpses of it in some games. We have not seen enough of it at all, but injuries caused us a lot of problems in the last few months.
Some of the football we have played under Ole has been exactly what I've wanted to see as a Utd fan, and I'm willing to give him some more time, to see if he can make that the norm. Of course, some of it is sentimentality, but if you wouldn't want to see a former legend succeed at the club over any other random manager, I find that very strange. Football is a game of passion, people aren't going to look at every situation like it's a business decision.
Sums up the fan hypocrisy and the frustrations I have with the team. I'm getting to the point of just wanting competence from the club
Both LVG and Mourinho had equally poor results without being sacked, so that's not true.
I'm not judging him on results because you can get a decent streak with some luck - or you can be unlucky and your results will suffer. Heck, Moyes got something like 6 straight wins in the middle of his season, it didn't mean he was ever good enough.
I'm just looking at the football. It's just not good enough, when we win and when we don't.
Lose today and he has to be axed over the international break.
Can't go into the busy Christmas season with a manager who can't even mastermind a league campaign with a points tally greater than the number of games played.
Can't go into the busy Christmas season with a manager who can't even mastermind a league campaign with a points tally greater than the number of games played.
If we have anything about us as a club then we need to sack Ole before the international break, & try & salvage the season and at least get a decent manager in there.
Trouble is we don’t act like a big club anymore.
Look at Leicester & Sheffield United to see what effect a decent manager can have
Trouble is we don’t act like a big club anymore.
Look at Leicester & Sheffield United to see what effect a decent manager can have
Well that's not true anyway.
Remind me all the wonderful changes Moyes made to the squad? Oh yeah, Fellaini and Mata. He rewarded a piss poor Rooney with a whopper 5 year deal when Fergie had him out the door, it was all set up for him. He sacked all the coaching staff that made the club so successful.
Vs
Three very good signings thus far. Shifted a feck tonne of dead wood over the summer and rehired some of the coaches previously sacked by Moyes and others who know well what it means to be at the club.
Apples and oranges.
If Moyes was in charge right now I think there would be lot of us who will stand by him. If the things were exactly like they are when he arrived and if the things were going like they are.
If Ole did exactly what Moyes did when after Sir Alex Ferguson left I would be calling for the sack. Ryan Giggs, who was even a bigger player than Ole and was our takecare manager didn't get the job. So I think we should take it easy with this "only because he is United legend"-stuff.
The situations are completly different to eachother and you should know that. The name of the manager is not important for us who see bigger picture and understand where we were and what we are.
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You selected the two most overperforming teams in the league. You can as easily point at Spurs, Everton, Wolves, Southampton or West Ham to see decent managers struggling. It's not as simple as you make it out to be.
What? Yes I selected them as they are 2 good managers..I don’t really see your point? Why would I choose other clubs with worse managers...(excluding Poch who’s done so much more in the game than Ole & clearly the better manager)
My point is good managers make a team better & we’ve settled . Simple as that & we deserve a Shite season for thinking having Ole will be good enough.
Rogers is so much the better manager than Ole it’s embarrassing the different directions we’re going in.
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