I was only thinking that with this shitshow of a thread coming hot on the heels of that one he's having a bit of a mare
Ole's Resume | An overview of Molde's 1st ever title-winning manager
- Thread starter Sterling Archer
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I was only thinking that with this shitshow of a thread coming hot on the heels of that one he's having a bit of a mare
Dude just admit you want Ole out, almost everything you have posted recently has a clear agenda, I would respect it more if you just come out and said it.
I mean, I've openly advocated for the Saudi's to take over and I took the flack I knew would be coming because of it.
It's your opinion, embrace it. Just don't expect a good reaction when you start a thread with a clear agenda (regardless of what you say now.)
For a moment I thought that you went full welsh.
Great post, thank you.
Kind of puts the OP’s original post in the bin - where it belongs.
At least some good came out of this thread. Thanks for the detailed and educational response.
5 minutes on the transfermarked site makes the OP look like a fool. The player turnover at that club is insane. Ole built a winning team, twice! Good post mate!
That was a waste of time all round.
I'm mildly amused to see there are United fans who feel inspired by a thrilling, academy led away defeat of City to post an op like that. Strange times we live in.
he was probably hired because he won 15 games on the spin or whatever ridiculous record he had vs whatever record molde had in norway
to think he was hired for his 'cv' just embarrasses you tbh
Couple of very good posts in response, especially @Grande @Tom Cato . Learned a lot more than I could from a quick dig around the forum and online, as I suggested. You actually can push quite well the idea that maybe Ole has it in his locker to handle the circumstances based on some of those challenges moreso than was ever apparent from the interim stint, which is what was made to seem the reason. If that never happened I wonder if there would have been more focus on this in particular and more analysis of this level to help educate the rest of us.
The other responses here? Bunch of cry babies throwing a tantrum at the timing of the post. But did any of them have the depth of knowledge to back up their instinctive 'no that's a lie,' response? Outside of hurling personal attacks, even less substance than the accused. Pathetic, presumptive and divisive in nature.
The other responses here? Bunch of cry babies throwing a tantrum at the timing of the post. But did any of them have the depth of knowledge to back up their instinctive 'no that's a lie,' response? Outside of hurling personal attacks, even less substance than the accused. Pathetic, presumptive and divisive in nature.
So from the extensive details from some of our Norwegian contingent that you can find in this thread, I actually am starting to feel very much the opposite. Hiring based on the interim perido was stupid and reactionary. Hiring based on the way folks like grande (see above) have better explained the time frame I'm questioning make it seem that maybe there's some real team building in there afterall.
I'd say it was mostly the arrogant, self-righteous tone and characterising of yourself as fair and those who are your opposed to your view as a "mob" that invited the criticism.
In that light the final bit about intolerance seems a bit hypocritical.
You've also been strongly pushing the Ole out message for so long that people are reasonably sceptical of your motives when initiating a discussion about the manager.
That's not just here. That's me in general, on the cafe anyway. But I do apologise and mean it when I've crossed a line.
I was very much Ole out for a good chunk of the season. I wasn't convinced. Spurs and City were a very promising moment for me. Not for being tactical masterclasses. I considered them a sign the players were behind the manager when there was immense outside pressure on sacking. But I still have reservations about how things pan out moving forward. But I've softened from Ole out to give him the season.
Funnily enough, the replies here that didn't linger on my person and focused on the actual information about Ole's work at Molde were quite informative. Theyve softened my view and actually started to fill me with a bit more optimism. Genuinely look at that timeline in the first post. You can't look at that (maybe I could have found more details if I could speak Norwegian mother tongue) and just say oh Ole was great at Molde. You have to at least question it. I actually previewed the post with the last line as "don't want to pollute this with my opinion" before then going back and adding my thoughts. I did genuinely want to know more with the context I've given. And my phrasing really wasn't pointed enough to warrant some of what's been said here.
Well at least you're self-aware, which I wasn't expecting to be honest so I've obviously judged you a little harshly.
I'm not saying you deserved it at all by the way. It was more to point out how the thread is framed can affect the tone of the replies.
To be fair some of the replies have been very informative in relation to Ole's time at Molde, although my reading of the pure results would have been that there must have been mitigating factors. Also winning the league after a manager left, when he had got them into the top two the previous two seasons, wouldn't have been a black mark against a manager in my book.
I've never been Ole out as I'm inherently optimistic about United, could see the recent improvements and felt that the team, which essentially has a new back-line, midfield pairing and strike-force, appeared to be gelling and as you say the players are definitely behind the manager.
Time will tell if Ole is the right man but hopefully they can go on a decent run towards Christmas and the mood keeps improving around here.
I am sitting on the fence with Ole but I really cannot disagree with your points. There has been change, ups and downs, swings and roundabouts, but visible change.
I can understand people being on the fence, it a huge job and there is a tendency for people to worry that Ole is in the job for the wrong reasons (ie being a club legend, rose tinted glasses and all that.)
However there are these positives in amongst the poor league position, these positives haven't been seen under the previous three managers, I believe if we want an effective change for the better over the long term we need to keep treading this path and strengthen the squad accordingly.
The high press Ole is clearly trying to implement is a very positive sign in my opinion. High press is not typically something a purely counter attacking team does (something I know some fans are concerned about), it tells me that Ole is making the most of this young pacey side whilst having one eye on the long term style of play he wants for the team.
I thought the mods said that we should avoid mega threads. Or has that guidance changed?
Could a mod clear this up?
When Ole wins a CL or league, we can make comparisons with ZZ and Pep.
As of now, Ole is not anywhere near winning a trophy for us.
Under Ole, we have endured the worst start to an EPL campaign ever! And that includes the dreaded Moyes and the final season of Jose (which was a car crash....Ole is worse).
For Ole to be mentioned in the same sentence as Pep and/or ZZ, Ole would probably need to win every remaining match of the remainder of the season.
Pellegrini got extremely lucky due to Slippy G and Liverpool's collapse at 3-0 up against Crystal Palace at Selhurst Park!
That's a very mean thing to say.
Out of curiosity, did you only look at Molde's transfers and ignore every other club in the league? Fact is, departures and arrivals were a merry-go-round for much of the league. That's a very shortsighted comment on your part.
And to make the point more meaningful note that in 2013, when Ole finished 6th with Molde, another team won their first title in five decades: Strømsgodset. Its no mean feat for them either. Like many in the league, plenty of ins and outs. And you know who that manager is? Rony Deila. Big proponent of attacking football, studied the game from the likes of City and Dortmund to incorporate into his own. Had a series of second place finishes as well as that title. Impressive really for a club of that stature. Considering it wasn't a record low points tally like 2011, even more impressive in my mind. Know what happened to him? He went to Celtic and won two titles including a cup and league double. Did he land the next big job after that? Nope, back at a Norwegian club. You could very well argue he's more successful as a manager than Ole...
It's not as cut and dry that winning the Norwegian league, even as an underdog, makes you a suitable manager for Manchester United.
That's a ridiculous argument that completely overlooks the point. You were better off not responding.
I think to your point, hiring Ole as soon as he finished in the academy would have made sense. Or right after his first two titles with Molde.
The concern is in the years after, how significantly has Ole improved as a manager and why didn't he land another job and show success there..in the post right above I'm talking about Rony Deila whose couple years and league title with Strømsgodset is just as impressive to me. I'm sure Norway folks can correct me with more insight there. But he went on and was successful in Scotland. There's a good precedent for success there translating to the premier league...even more recently with Rodgers.
The concern for me is, hiring Ole back then would have been an easier gamble than now after an even longer period of mismanagement. It's hindsight for sure but if you were given a five year plan a year into it after Moyes, would you take it then? Might have been easier to consider then versus now on the eve of Liverpool's impending title. It's a bigger gamble now but in my opinion, even with the insight from folks like Grande, it's not a sound one. If Ole had one more season at Molde and took those two second place finishes to win the league again I'd be more convinced. Laying foundations is one thing. Serial winner is another. Isn't that Pochs biggest thing - laying brick everywhere. But he never did win. Ole has won before, but that's so long ago. Is he up to it now. Is he really better now? Maybe. But Manchester United is his testing ground now and looking at Ed, that's a hail Mary choice. Not a sound management decision on his part. And that's what I'm most critical of. In many ways this is all about Ed.
I hate Molde with a passion. I really do. But even I have to give Ole a lot of credit for what he achieved there, and how he is a huge part of the transformation from a decent club with ambition, to a great club with silverware.
Sure, Rosenborg wasn't up to their usual dominant standards in those years, and sure, some super rich owners invested heavily in the squad.
But Ole won Moldes first ever league title.
He won the double (mighty impressive).
He laid a great foundation for the club to keep succeeding after his tenure(s).
He made Molde what they are today, going from perennial bottlers to a domestic powerhouse (with some success in the Europa League even).
Also, the owners would never have invested anywhere close to what they did (and still do), if not for Ole.
Molde is a tiny city, and still they are able to attract some of the best Norwegian players year after year. This is not only due to money, but because the club has an excellent record in developing talent and playing good (sometimes even great by Norwegian standards) attacking football, and winning trophies.
Now, this is not all because of Ole, but he's played a huge part in the development of the club. One of the best (if not THE best) run clubs in Norwegian football the last decade.
Sure, Rosenborg wasn't up to their usual dominant standards in those years, and sure, some super rich owners invested heavily in the squad.
But Ole won Moldes first ever league title.
He won the double (mighty impressive).
He laid a great foundation for the club to keep succeeding after his tenure(s).
He made Molde what they are today, going from perennial bottlers to a domestic powerhouse (with some success in the Europa League even).
Also, the owners would never have invested anywhere close to what they did (and still do), if not for Ole.
Molde is a tiny city, and still they are able to attract some of the best Norwegian players year after year. This is not only due to money, but because the club has an excellent record in developing talent and playing good (sometimes even great by Norwegian standards) attacking football, and winning trophies.
Now, this is not all because of Ole, but he's played a huge part in the development of the club. One of the best (if not THE best) run clubs in Norwegian football the last decade.
For the love of Sir Alex, stop talking about a league you've never watched.
Twice league champions and twice runners up in six seasons is a pretty good record.
Doesn’t prove that Ole is suitable for Premier League level but seems like a pretty weak argument to say that he isn’t suitable based on that record.
This is remarkable (or not).
You've gone from what looked for all intents and purposes like a blatant attempt to discredit Ole to, humbly, allowing for the possibility that he was actually hired because United (meaning Woodward, ultimately, one must assume) considered his Molde record impressive enough to warrant a permanent contract.
I don't know what your game is, mate, but let me tell you this: there's very little chance that Woodward based the decision (to hire Ole on a permanent basis) on his achievements with Molde.
Ole was brought in as an interim based on his ties with United, very likely on the direct recommendation of someone (probably Fergie), not on his record with Molde. And he was given the job permanently because Woodward considered him a popular choice (which he was, at the time).
There's nothing more to it. So, if your original stance was that the decision was "stupid and reactionary", there's really no reason for you to change it.
You can remove the "stupid" part once he proves himself, but the "reactionary" part is pretty much set in stone unless someone digs up evidence that good ol' Ed actually a) looked thoroughly at what he did at Molde and b) based his decision to give Ole a permanent contract on the latter.
@JarleA nice summary. Good to hear the thoughts of someone with a bias against Molde in particular to balance things out
* I did not know enough detail about Ole's time with Molde in the last decade
* I was naive about the level of success he had there and assumed that he had dominated the league consistently showing that he ought to be managing elsewhere (it was a common thing to hear that he broke the Rosenberg dominance like Sir Alex broke the old firm)
* I have an extremely strong bias against Ed Woodward and the appointment of Ole as a manager full-time was , in my opinion, premature and deserving of more criticism. The time at Molde seems like it falls somewhere in the middle of showing good potential and being a huge risk...it's not the resounding success that I was led to believe. If things don't work out with Ole, the blame should lay on Woodward. And if things work out swimmingly, Woodward should not be hailed a genius. This was a massive gamble, not the sound decision of a great CEO
I can see how the post is seen that way because of so much noise surrounding Ole's tenure in general. This is a retrospective view that stems from the following:
* I did not know enough detail about Ole's time with Molde in the last decade
* I was naive about the level of success he had there and assumed that he had dominated the league consistently showing that he ought to be managing elsewhere (it was a common thing to hear that he broke the Rosenberg dominance like Sir Alex broke the old firm)
* I have an extremely strong bias against Ed Woodward and the appointment of Ole as a manager full-time was , in my opinion, premature and deserving of more criticism. The time at Molde seems like it falls somewhere in the middle of showing good potential and being a huge risk...it's not the resounding success that I was led to believe. If things don't work out with Ole, the blame should lay on Woodward. And if things work out swimmingly, Woodward should not be hailed a genius. This was a massive gamble, not the sound decision of a great CEO
This is precious considering we have comments in post match reactions to the tune of, "I didn't watch the match but it sounds like this and that".
If you don't like my opinions you don't have to consider them. I've noted that others of the Norwegian contingent have educated me a great deal to fill in some gaps in my knowledge and soften my perspective laid out in the original post.
Is that not a success? Isn't that what this forum should really be about?
Disappointingly, I'm getting mostly condescension from you.
I don't have that much time to respond so I'll bullet point the responses to the bolded:
- Hiring at the "right time" is great with the benefit of hindsight but unfortunately, that doesn't exist in real-world decision making. Also, this doesn't really guarantee anything.
- "One more season at Molde" - this is an arbitrary criterion based on nothing but a guess. Not sure what difference you think it would make.
- I really hate the term "serial winner". It's an appeal to accomplishments and part of the reason why United is in this mess (see LVG and Jose)
- When Ole was appointed manager nearly everyone agreed he deserved it based on his record at the time. Once again Ed nor anyone has the benefit of hindsight
I think I may have touched on that a bit more in the post above.
It's not meant to be a game. My expectation was:
Lay some info out. See how others interpret it. Maybe some folks can add more information to get the whole picture.
The spark that seems to have set people off is suggesting Ole's time at Molde wasn't good enough in my opinion.
That's not his fault. As an anti Woodward poster, that's my real aim if I had to choose a target to discredit or criticize.
What I'm learning is there's actually more merit in hiring Ole from his time at Molde, if you look at it with a certain perspective, than there was from hiring based on the interim period.
I am sure when Zidane or Pep took over Real or Barcelona in year 1, they had won nothing. Absolutely nothing. At best? They coached the reserve, which Ole did too. I don't even think Zidane had good results with the reserve, they went up and then down fast in the standing, and there was some controversies about his credentials as a coach even (he did not have them when he started coaching the reserves).
In short, it means nothing right now. Ole shows things on the field that are more than interesting for me. And he should keep winning as soon as the team gains more in confidence and just go for the ball because we can do it. We probably need some bodies with technical abilities to be able to rotate in some games.
Missed in the analysis:
1. He won their first league title. Should account for something.
2. Doesn’t take into account spending, especially that compared to other clubs
3. Doesn’t take into account the quality of the squad. Did they underperform, overperform relative to expectations?
4. Doesn’t take into account injuries to key players.
5. Doesn’t take into account improvement of the manager himself. I do believe that managers improve, just like players.
Alright - as I suggested above, based on your responses in this thread it's possible to interpret your original intention as, let's say, legit. I'll take it as such, being an amicable sort of fecker (mostly).
But the spark that set people off was clearly not the suggestion that Ole's time at Molde wasn't good enough - because nobody with any sense would argue that what he achieved at Molde is in any way sufficient evidence to make him a plausible candidate for the United job. Nobody - not even his most ardent adherents - has claimed this.
The actual spark was the - reasonable, based on your posting history - assumption that you had dug up some numbers (without context) in order to discredit Ole.
If I want to discredit Ole I would just lay out what's happened since he became full time manager of Manchester United. I have posted plenty about that in previous months. I'm hoping continued good results mean I can support the manager more than just deal with the situation.
I can see it's a very thin line I'm treading on here. Maybe the best way to characterize the difference is:
who the heck hired this guy? As opposed to how awful is this guy at the job?
@DSG it's not an analysis. Meant to be a quick summary, overview of the domestic campaigns. (1) is in there. Looks like you missed it. (5) that's kind of the question I was asking. People made it seem like the Norwegian league wins were yesterday. It was before Sir Alex retired. Since then, Ole has not won a league. It looks like the team does start to build under him but it takes three or four seasons and then it's a new manager that wins the title. So question is, does Ed see that and think okay I give Ole four years to be competitive? As many have pointed out, he went of the interim period, which is ridiculous. If he did think back to Molde then I ask, can United afford to wait that long. And does Ole earn that grace period simplu for being a former player over other managers Available
To be fair the assumption would have been that you would have at least taken a cursory glance at Ole's wikipedia page prior to yesterday.
If you assumed the wins were more recent as you didn't bother looking into that has to be on you.
100% on me for sure.
But I felt it was worth posting because it was never dissected to any great extent before. Even when debating early on whether to make Ole permanent, never saw an in depth critique.
Forgetting about Solskjaer for a minute. Why should we dismiss the possibility of lower leagues hiding a top level management talent any different to a player? It's just harder to see.
There's talk of Everton bringing Moyes back. Anyone in the world and the best they come up with is bringing back Moyes.
Getting an opportunity as a manager is massive, once you have a high profile spell of good form behind you are set for life with hirings and sackings, like Marco Silva.
There's talk of Everton bringing Moyes back. Anyone in the world and the best they come up with is bringing back Moyes.
Getting an opportunity as a manager is massive, once you have a high profile spell of good form behind you are set for life with hirings and sackings, like Marco Silva.
Actually very much agree. When going through the Norwegian League to better understand what went on - admittedly only as deep as my resources allowed - I was pretty intrigued by Ronny Deila. He won the Tippeligaen with Stromsgodset, their first in like fifty years. Also finished second a few times with them. Then he went on to win two Scottish Premier Leagues with Celtic. His signature was this progressive attacking play. He stepped down from Celtic and went back to Norway where he's been probably over perferoming with what used to be a relegation candidate. Curious he didn't land a bigger job after Celtic.
What people also tend to forget, like many of Ole`s past teammates have told (look up on youtube or i`ll provide the sources) :
Ole always had an analytical approach to the game, on the bench or when he shared room with Jaap Staam. Darren Fletcher are one of many that have spoken out about Ole`s Man Utd job, here below are what he is quoted on Norwegian television almost a week ago
`He`s doing it the hard way, but the right way for Man Utd. It`s not about winning this season, it`s about winning in 3-4 seasons, and be ready to challenge then ( i`ll add a comment here: as others have said, that is likely to when Pep and or Klopp are no longer managers of `Pool or Man City). Get in the right characters, personalities. Ole Gunnar has prepared for this job for his whole life, this is what he wanted. He knows Manchester united more than any club, he knows the mentality and what it takes better than anyone*. This is therefore not so much about Molde, and or Cardiff (which was a Urias post in the first place)`
* Which also includes Man Management skills, which is why say Roy Keane et.al are not relevant to the modern era of managers, in which Ole is better suited, and is also why Mourinho seem so weird and calm and humble these days, he had to change his game (character) to not loose the players. Loose the players, and the sack is around the corner.
Ole has the match going fans with him, the team, and the board, and as long as he has that support. Youtubers and redcaf can say whatever in the heat of the moment, in the end it`s only a forum for opinions
Ole always had an analytical approach to the game, on the bench or when he shared room with Jaap Staam. Darren Fletcher are one of many that have spoken out about Ole`s Man Utd job, here below are what he is quoted on Norwegian television almost a week ago
`He`s doing it the hard way, but the right way for Man Utd. It`s not about winning this season, it`s about winning in 3-4 seasons, and be ready to challenge then ( i`ll add a comment here: as others have said, that is likely to when Pep and or Klopp are no longer managers of `Pool or Man City). Get in the right characters, personalities. Ole Gunnar has prepared for this job for his whole life, this is what he wanted. He knows Manchester united more than any club, he knows the mentality and what it takes better than anyone*. This is therefore not so much about Molde, and or Cardiff (which was a Urias post in the first place)`
* Which also includes Man Management skills, which is why say Roy Keane et.al are not relevant to the modern era of managers, in which Ole is better suited, and is also why Mourinho seem so weird and calm and humble these days, he had to change his game (character) to not loose the players. Loose the players, and the sack is around the corner.
Ole has the match going fans with him, the team, and the board, and as long as he has that support. Youtubers and redcaf can say whatever in the heat of the moment, in the end it`s only a forum for opinions
Deila got the sack from Celtic if i remember correctly. Those Catholics are very demanding. Did not have a great enough run in europe / champions league. Deila did great at Strømsgodset (SIF) Dag Eilev Fagermo did some good ground work at SIF which Deila implemented (everybody has stood on somebodies past shoulders). Like having his players on a Kethosis kind of diet (very little carbs, high fat)
Deila were a player under Fagermo at SIF, a club captain and assistent manager which also played with familiar team mates from Odd Grenland. SIF had a very good team that winning season. Some of the likes play abroad now, henche they recruited very well also, and had a loan deal with Man City.
Deila are now not doing particularily well with VIF (Vålerenga Football) but he just signed a three year contract, and (does this sound familiar) the club are now in a rebuild and want local players from Oslo at their club, young, norwegian etc ..
Deila is said to be a great manager by SIF, so and so with Celtic, and have not won the majority of the supporters at VIF (but are planning to do so - but it takes time)
So, it`s not black and white this footballing business