In a 3142 / 352 martial probably warms the bench with rashford and mata. I think this formation gets the best out of our best players. Pogba, matic, herrera, miki and lukaku. From what i have seen of the tour, miki has looked good so far forwards and this should aloow him a free role in behind lukaku. It gives pogba licence to get forward as well. Herrera isn't tied to complete defensive duties and can be more dynamic. Matic can sit and anchor midfield.
Won't go too much into details, while I have some disagreement, but generally I agree with most of your posts.
Yeah 433 or variations of it, and thats what we will play most of the time. And 352 for certain games when we are going more defensive, but we don't really have the players for it.
I think 3-1-4-2 is a good system for seeing out games. Replace an attacker from the front three with a defender. Will also be useful in tough games like the one against Chelsea last season.
Using it to see out games and using it as the stock system are 2 different things though. The quality of wing backs is absolutely critical in such a role because if they're shit, the attack will be very toothless. We also don't have someone like Luiz to step a bit and build up at the back unless Mourinho plays blind there.
A lot of the reasons why our attackers didn't perform is tactical. In a 4231/433 our wingers drift in, none stay out wide hugging the touchline. Our strikers also liked to drop deep and our mids liked to push forward. This basically led to a large concentration of players in the middle attacking third and not much movement around that. We suffered greatly from a lack of players stretching the defence (either horizontally or vertically) to create space in the middle or exploit the space on the wings. This is why Valencia was so often our effective out ball because he was the only player who would stay wide and push forward.
Chelsea - Moses is more attack minded, both him and Alonso had excellent seasons and helped with goals/assists. Luiz steps up and brings ball out, helping Kante, who nothing needs more be said on. Conte would go with Matic or Fabregas deeper depending on what game required. Hazard, Costa and Willian/Pedro all freed up to do damage in attack.
Good post, but I do not agree. If we play three at the back, Matic, in a DM, will be of less use. Look at Chelsea last year, and how Luiz dominated the same area as Matic did in 14/15.3-1-4-2: best formation?
Seems to be the one that can squeeze the very best out most of our players especially our key players eg. Pogba, Mkhitaryan & Valencia, also other players like Darmian, Blind, Bailly and Smalling, etc.
*Fully aware instructions and roles are a lot more important than (starting) position in any specified formation, but it's also true that specified positions in a given formation will affects "area of playing" which in turn affects the instructed roles.*
(Roles/Instructions & Areas of Playing) <-> Formation
Roles/Instructions + Formation = System
*Basically, Formation influences "area of playing" and specified roles.* not totally
eg. Mkhi playing as RM will play more at right midfield and right wing areas despite the license to drift centrally at the 10's hole where he's most effective. Also, he's expected to help Valencia defensively, an instruction which he performed poorly in general and messes up his game somehow.
*Also, I'm fully aware it's still early and not enough games to evaluate. We may see it more in the upcoming Super Cup or/and when the season started.*
Play our best players in their best role and positions (area of playing) right? For max impacts.
eg. Conte's Chelsea struggles pre- new system with formation 3-4-3 last season.
Lukaku
|
Mkhitaryan
|
Darmian--Pogba---Herrera--Valencia
|
Matic
Blind-------------------------
Pogba (CM), with 2 defenders handling the left side at our back, and 2 midfielders take charge of defensive duties centrally, Pog can freely perform without worrying much of defensive duties. He's at his best being given free role, focusing more on attacking. He can provide good defensive support too which is cool. Also, with this system, he can always freely overlap into the box or drifting to the wing without any worries of losing the ball or immediate retreat. Having two constantly overlapping wing-backs is also important, as Pogba is at his best with a lot of player runnings everywhere around the field.
Mkhitaryan (CAM/AM/SS), Best area of playing and role where he doesn't need to worry much on defensive duties, and instead focus attacking creatively and scoring. He's at his best playing behind the striker using his unpredictable movements, paces and skills can disturb the opponent's defensive structure. With his abilities, he should be able to score 20 goals/season. Similarly, Mata (AM/CAM/SS) perform best at this area, but Mr. consistent here is equally adept playing at RM without any drop in performance.
Lukaku
|
Mkhitaryan
Lukaku (ST), He's far better closer to the goal post than further. With this system, he doesn't need to help building attacks, which isn't his strong point, we have abundance of creative players for that and instead he should focus on getting the end of it and score. In 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 formation, expecting Lukaku to always help with building up attacks can limit his game.
--Martial---RashfordRashford & Martial (ST), in an adjusted 3-1-4-2 formation with 2 strikers instead of the AM. Both of them are far better playing centrally than at out wide, around and inside the box where they can be more unpredictable and provide various attacking and scoring threats. In this system, they're not expected to provide defensive duties other than high pressing upfield, so Martial especially will excel more. Can also improve their scoring rate.
|
Pogba---Herrera
|
Matic
Herrera & Fellaini (CM), far-far away from the CDM role. Fellaini is horrible and costly at holding the midfield, and while Herrera can play well there, he's far better off with no positioning discipline/restrictions. His creativity and energy everywhere is more useful. Both are far better playing as B2B than holding. Glad we finally have Matic now, with Carrick as back-up.
^
|
|
Valencia
Valencia (RWB), yup, with the RCB and RCM to cover behind him, Tony can freely attack and focus more on providing that width and crosses. As a RB, yes he's that good, solid and can easily nullify most attackers, but against a far quality players eg. in Champions League, his defensive abilities may be found out. His attacking prowess is that good, playing as RB can limit his game.
^
|
|
Darmian
Darmian & Shaw (LWB), both have good stamina and good paces, can run up and down the left wing all game long. As LB, both are limited to not always attack and had to held/calculated their runs -- when to overlap and when to hold. Darmian especially had to focus more defensively staying at the back in 4-5-1 formations. In the 3-5-2 system, there's no restrictions so he can attack all the time. Shaw especially may not be that good at defending, thus having that LCB to cover him, helps him to cover his mistakes and express his attacking prowess.
Blind---Smalling---Bailly
Blind (LCB), he tend to press much, made mistakes and exposed defensively, so having 2 other CBs and the LWB, to cover him means a lot. Can also fill the left side when the LWB overlaps to deliver good deep crosses. Additionally, with 2 CBs to cover him behind, he can freely more forward centrally to helps in attacks, and passing the ball around.
Bailly & Jones (RCB), the reality is.. on the air, both of them are big suspects. Not that good aerially, clean defending on the ground though and good passing from the back. So, with this system, having more defenders, especially the other 2 CBs can help solve the gap of their weaknesses.
Smalling (CB), he's very bad at building up attacks from the back. In 4-?-? formation, opponents will let him have the ball at his feet with no worries. With this system, Smalling doesn't need to contribute in building up attacks, and focus on his sole one job -- defending the box.
Lindelof (RCB), one big obvious weakness is his aerial defending abilities. Bis suspect, so with this system, can help cover his weakness. Also, help him express his general abilities -- passing and building up attacks from the back, plus his occasional forward runs. Other than that, having 2 other CBs and the RWB to cover him helps in settling in.
Tuanzebe (CB), can't see Mourinho trusting him at CB, so at least with this system, he would have 2 other CBs to cover his mistakes and to instruct him during game, as he eventually settling in and stealing the spot. Similar reasoning for Mitchell (LWB) & TFM (RWB), the former are very good attacking but suspect in defending, and the latter can be rash with easy fouls giveaway.
A. Pereira & McTominay (CM), with 3 man centre-midfield, easier settling in and more chances to play, rather than 2 man CMs. Pogba will play almost every game anyway. Also with literally 5 defenders, that's a lot of defensive coverings. No worries making some mistakes.
The downside to this which I can think of is..
Thinking about it, we don't actually have real wingers, except Valencia, Young and Shaw who operate more as wing-backs, and Martial specific left winger further upfield ideally best with no defensive duty. If we got Perisic, that would be our only proper winger who is a side midfielder that can attacks and defend convincingly. If we don't get him, using the system is an alternative. Even if we got him, he could make the system more effective.
- Our 7 CB options can be a big issue. Ahem, fitness problems, suspensions, and injuries (Blind/Rojo/Tuanzebe/Smalling/Jones/Bailly/Lindelof).
- Not enough playing times for our other attackers (Rashford, Martial, Mata, Lingard, A. Pereira) as Lukaku will play most game, so there is only one slot to fight against Mkhitaryan. Lingard and Pereira can play as WBs and CM respectively so that leave us with (Rashford, Martial & Mata) not enough gaming times.
- Not Mourinho's favoured formation.
Width is very useful in football -- stretching the opposing defensive structure and exploiting the many spaces that opened up in the enemy's territory. The system with formation 3-1-4-2 means both side's width is a guarantee, while providing abundance of defensive covers, Matic-ally balance/stability and our key players are more densely focused attacking centrally.
Thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Too soon?
100% agree, its basically a 5-3-2
The problem is people think about football the wrong way. It's not about how many attacking players you can get on the pitch, it's about making space for your attacking players in dangerous areas of the pitch.
Well for one Chelsea and City both play more in a 3-4-3 and not in what the OP posted. The problem I see are the players on the pitch he listed, who is going to score goals in this formation? Lukaku and Mkhi and maybe Pogba, but that's it. Neither Valencia nor Shaw have ever shown a neck for goal scoring and Herrera doesn't seem to be very prolific in front of goal either.
That could actually work great as Matic staying so close to the CB's anyway really does ask the question if we actually need 3 CB's on the pitch.
Exactly. I really do not like the idea of playing 3 CB's and Matic. It causes us to become overly defensive and rely on counter attacks which won't work against teams which sit back against us.
Excellent post.3-1-4-2: best formation?
Seems to be the one that can squeeze the very best out most of our players especially our key players eg. Pogba, Mkhitaryan & Valencia, also other players like Darmian, Blind, Bailly and Smalling, etc.
*Fully aware instructions and roles are a lot more important than (starting) position in any specified formation, but it's also true that specified positions in a given formation will affects "area of playing" which in turn affects the instructed roles.*
(Roles/Instructions & Areas of Playing) <-> Formation
Roles/Instructions + Formation = System
*Basically, Formation influences "area of playing" and specified roles.* not totally
eg. Mkhi playing as RM will play more at right midfield and right wing areas despite the license to drift centrally at the 10's hole where he's most effective. Also, he's expected to help Valencia defensively, an instruction which he performed poorly in general and messes up his game somehow.
*Also, I'm fully aware it's still early and not enough games to evaluate. We may see it more in the upcoming Super Cup or/and when the season started.*
Play our best players in their best role and positions (area of playing) right? For max impacts.
eg. Conte's Chelsea struggles pre- new system with formation 3-4-3 last season.
Lukaku
|
Mkhitaryan
|
Darmian--Pogba---Herrera--Valencia
|
Matic
Blind-------------------------
Pogba (CM), with 2 defenders handling the left side at our back, and 2 midfielders take charge of defensive duties centrally, Pog can freely perform without worrying much of defensive duties. He's at his best being given free role, focusing more on attacking. He can provide good defensive support too which is cool. Also, with this system, he can always freely overlap into the box or drifting to the wing without any worries of losing the ball or immediate retreat. Having two constantly overlapping wing-backs is also important, as Pogba is at his best with a lot of player runnings everywhere around the field.
Mkhitaryan (CAM/AM/SS), Best area of playing and role where he doesn't need to worry much on defensive duties, and instead focus attacking creatively and scoring. He's at his best playing behind the striker using his unpredictable movements, paces and skills can disturb the opponent's defensive structure. With his abilities, he should be able to score 20 goals/season. Similarly, Mata (AM/CAM/SS) perform best at this area, but Mr. consistent here is equally adept playing at RM without any drop in performance.
Lukaku
|
Mkhitaryan
Lukaku (ST), He's far better closer to the goal post than further. With this system, he doesn't need to help building attacks, which isn't his strong point, we have abundance of creative players for that and instead he should focus on getting the end of it and score. In 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 formation, expecting Lukaku to always help with building up attacks can limit his game.
--Martial---RashfordRashford & Martial (ST), in an adjusted 3-1-4-2 formation with 2 strikers instead of the AM. Both of them are far better playing centrally than at out wide, around and inside the box where they can be more unpredictable and provide various attacking and scoring threats. In this system, they're not expected to provide defensive duties other than high pressing upfield, so Martial especially will excel more. Can also improve their scoring rate.
|
Pogba---Herrera
|
Matic
Herrera & Fellaini (CM), far-far away from the CDM role. Fellaini is horrible and costly at holding the midfield, and while Herrera can play well there, he's far better off with no positioning discipline/restrictions. His creativity and energy everywhere is more useful. Both are far better playing as B2B than holding. Glad we finally have Matic now, with Carrick as back-up.
^
|
|
Valencia
Valencia (RWB), yup, with the RCB and RCM to cover behind him, Tony can freely attack and focus more on providing that width and crosses. As a RB, yes he's that good, solid and can easily nullify most attackers, but against a far quality players eg. in Champions League, his defensive abilities may be found out. His attacking prowess is that good, playing as RB can limit his game.
^
|
|
Darmian
Darmian & Shaw (LWB), both have good stamina and good paces, can run up and down the left wing all game long. As LB, both are limited to not always attack and had to held/calculated their runs -- when to overlap and when to hold. Darmian especially had to focus more defensively staying at the back in 4-5-1 formations. In the 3-5-2 system, there's no restrictions so he can attack all the time. Shaw especially may not be that good at defending, thus having that LCB to cover him, helps him to cover his mistakes and express his attacking prowess.
Blind---Smalling---Bailly
Blind (LCB), he tend to press much, made mistakes and exposed defensively, so having 2 other CBs and the LWB, to cover him means a lot. Can also fill the left side when the LWB overlaps to deliver good deep crosses. Additionally, with 2 CBs to cover him behind, he can freely more forward centrally to helps in attacks, and passing the ball around.
Bailly & Jones (RCB), the reality is.. on the air, both of them are big suspects. Not that good aerially, clean defending on the ground though and good passing from the back. So, with this system, having more defenders, especially the other 2 CBs can help solve the gap of their weaknesses.
Smalling (CB), he's very bad at building up attacks from the back. In 4-?-? formation, opponents will let him have the ball at his feet with no worries. With this system, Smalling doesn't need to contribute in building up attacks, and focus on his sole one job -- defending the box.
Lindelof (RCB), one big obvious weakness is his aerial defending abilities. Bis suspect, so with this system, can help cover his weakness. Also, help him express his general abilities -- passing and building up attacks from the back, plus his occasional forward runs. Other than that, having 2 other CBs and the RWB to cover him helps in settling in.
Tuanzebe (CB), can't see Mourinho trusting him at CB, so at least with this system, he would have 2 other CBs to cover his mistakes and to instruct him during game, as he eventually settling in and stealing the spot. Similar reasoning for Mitchell (LWB) & TFM (RWB), the former are very good attacking but suspect in defending, and the latter can be rash with easy fouls giveaway.
A. Pereira & McTominay (CM), with 3 man centre-midfield, easier settling in and more chances to play, rather than 2 man CMs. Pogba will play almost every game anyway. Also with literally 5 defenders, that's a lot of defensive coverings. No worries making some mistakes.
The downside to this which I can think of is..
Thinking about it, we don't actually have real wingers, except Valencia, Young and Shaw who operate more as wing-backs, and Martial specific left winger further upfield ideally best with no defensive duty. If we got Perisic, that would be our only proper winger who is a side midfielder that can attacks and defend convincingly. If we don't get him, using the system is an alternative. Even if we got him, he could make the system more effective.
- Our 7 CB options can be a big issue. Ahem, fitness problems, suspensions, and injuries (Blind/Rojo/Tuanzebe/Smalling/Jones/Bailly/Lindelof).
- Not enough playing times for our other attackers (Rashford, Martial, Mata, Lingard, A. Pereira) as Lukaku will play most game, so there is only one slot to fight against Mkhitaryan. Lingard and Pereira can play as WBs and CM respectively so that leave us with (Rashford, Martial & Mata) not enough gaming times.
- Not Mourinho's favoured formation.
Width is very useful in football -- stretching the opposing defensive structure and exploiting the many spaces that opened up in the enemy's territory. The system with formation 3-1-4-2 means both side's width is a guarantee, while providing abundance of defensive covers, Matic-ally balance/stability and our key players are more densely focused attacking centrally.
Thoughts? Agree? Disagree? Too soon?
These are great options to have though. At old trafford against smaller teams two strikers with One of Harrera/Matic. With bigger teams or in away games , Harrera and Matic would give us a solid base with pogba and the wingers helping in counter attacking
