I don't see why we should rule out the possibility that we can win the title with this defence.
Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?
- Thread starter Untd55
- Start date
City had Laporte who is better than Maguire and didn't they have Kompany too?
We shouldn't definitely but when compared to teams that have not only won titles but dominated then it falls short
Why does it fall short? The numbers suggest otherwise
We've conceded 33 this season with 4 games left and when you compare that to recent Liverpool and City teams that have been dominant in the last 3 years it does fall short. It's not just about winning the title once but also being dominant again. Maybe if the defense can find consistency then we can dominate with them but going by this season, I don't know.
Last edited:
2018/19 Kompany played 13 matches. Laporte, Stones and Otamendi played more than him. (31, 18, 14 Matches respectively)
2017/18 Otamendi played most matches 33, and Laporte only 9. Kompany played 17 and Stones 16.
Two amazing seasons for City and that was the central defence. Don’t think Lindelof /Maguire are worse.
Nice. I think the key for City was their ability to efficiently keep possession and kill the game early. We started doing this when Bruno came along with our other best players returning from injury and it has actually made our defense better. We conceded 6 goals in the 15 games we've played since Bruno came. Last 15 games before Bruno we conceded 15
They are finding consistency right now though, no?
I mean, I get both sides of the argument, but I don't necessarily agree with the negative side of it. I think a lot of people look at these players names on a team sheet and say 'he has a weakness' 'he's only got x assists' 'he got done by that guy a few games ago' etc etc. It's the nature of a football supporter to pick holes.
However, the numbers of goals and chances we are conceding (or rather, are not conceding) suggest that these four players are very comfortable playing together. They understand each others movements and tendencies, they know when to go and when not to, they have a solid defensive line & they communicate well with each other, on and off the pitch. That's come from coaching and also sometimes just finding the right blend.
Our defences in the last 30 years, defences that won titles and even champions leagues, always had weaknesses amongst the individual players.
Defense is a function of the entire team. Liverpool's midfield are an integral part of their defensive ability. To be fair to City's defenders, they are not being "shielded" by the team's possession; they are an integral part of making sure the ball is kept from the opposition.
But back to us... Through a combination of being able to keep the ball better, and pressing effectively from the front, we can limit how often our defense gets tested.
I agree with this. But you also have to factor in the fact we would be challenging Liverpool who have had the best defense in the league for a while now. Can you see this current defense keeping more clean sheets than them?
Goals conceded.
Liverpool 26
Leicester 32
United 33
City 34
Last year United gave up 54 goals. It is much improved, and could improve a little bit for sure. No one will disagree with that. But while everyone harps on the defense-- the fact that United is 5th in goals scored this year @ 59-- is the real problem. United wasn't always the best defense under SAF (usually top 3 though in goals allowed,) but SAF's teams usually were top 2 in goals scored.
Is this defense good enough to win the title? Yeah-- but only if United bang in like 90-95 goals next year. So to compete for the title, the defense will have to improve a little bit-- but most of the improvement will have to be scoring goals.
What I was getting at is we have enough creativity in other areas that we can get away with it. We'll see next year if we are in the CL and play better teams week in week out.
34 games into the season and we lead on expected goals against. If our defence is no good, then no-one else's is either.
Nicely said. I'm sure you'll get promoted quickly.
Scoring is our main problem pre-Bruno, not defending. Our defense is just good enough comparable to the other best defense teams. Need to add more depth though. Best four defenders is strong together, but back-ups...
Well that's not really the point isn't it?
Even at our peak we never had a WC XI. We got close to that a couple of times but we never actually made it so far. That's fair enough because very few squads can claim to have had that and tbf it's damn expensive to have that too.
What we had though were non WC players who had a skillset that fitted our team like a glove. For example during the treble, an ageing Irwin brought experience, solidity and leadership in a young defence who had just signed a top but still inexperienced Jaap Stam. In the rare occasions that he could afford moving forward Irwin's crossing was still lethal. Cole's & Yorke's all round skill and ability to drop deep created chaos in defences that were used to a typical goal poacher + a mezza punta. In the 3rd CL winning team Park's and Teveth's workrate compensated for Ronaldo's brilliant but hardly work rate intensive efforts. The same can be said with Wes who acted as a defensive FB which together with Rio and Vidic allowed Evra to go forward and be so devastating on the flank.
We still have players like that. James for example is not WC but if used correctly (ie quick counters when we're defending a result) then he can be devastating. The guy's workrate and pace would hurt anybody. Unfortunately there are many players who simply do not bring anything on the table or which skillset isn't needed at United. Shaw is a typical example of that. His defensive skills is meah while his attacking skills are non existent. One might say ah ok he might become a poor man's defensive fb. Unfortunately we already have the Bentley version of that on the Right and no team can play with a defence that provide nearly nothing attacking wise. Not to forget that we already have Williams whose got more potential then Shaw and he's more reliable injury wise.
Regarding your comment (enough creativity) I disagree on two counts
a- the secret of United's success was always that of having multiple outlets capable of creating chances. United were devastating during the treble and the third CL victory because anyone in first team apart from Gaz could score goals. Gaz could create them (the guy had quite a cross) but scoring is a different subject altogether
b- while I concede that we're building quite an exciting team it's also true that if anything had to happen to either Pogba or Bruno then we would struggle big time. So creativity from other areas is needed especially in a football world were fullbacks are expected to contribute far more then they did in the 80s.
I was just watching the highlights of the Villa game, one particular thing caught my attention when Villa grazed the outside of the post. After dispossessing Pogba, the Villa player was running with the ball and it was almost a 3v2 with one Villa player carrying the ball, one on the right of Lindelof and one on the left of Maguire. Both these players were ready to be slipped in for a one-on-one with the keeper. What impressed me about that point was how Maguire and Lindelof backtracked while cutting the passing lines towards those two Villa players and still maintaining a distance making a strike from distance slightly uncomfortable. This time the Villa player managed to graze the post with tbf a tame shot and usually you expect those shots to go either wayward or straight to the keeper unless its some exceptional player. With Maguire and Lindelof, we have done those simple things like positioning and being aware opposition players around them really well this season. Of course, these things don't get much attention but errors (or exploitation of their weakness i.e. pace for Maguire, headers for Lindelof) which have been few and far between get much more attention. And from that pov, the reputation of our defense has been slightly marred even when the stats (GA and xGA) have been very good.
Last edited:
I'm a little scared of how often Maguire gets schooled one v one, but other than that, the positional awareness and playing the ball out of defense has improved massively. It's also been a huge boost to have Shaw back at arguably his best.
The defence definitely hasn't been fixed but there have been some really good signs pre and post COVID. I still worry about the Lindelof/Maguire partnership but the improvement in the full backs has been really encouraging.
Wan Bissaka was really poor offensively when he first joined but he's showing real improvement of late. Shaw has been ever present in this unbeaten run, his defensive positioning has been great and his energy to overlap Rashford is the best I've seen from him.
Shaw's final ball still needs work and he attacks way too narrow for my liking but the signs are great. He's the best English left back in the Premier League at the moment. His defensive positioning is outstanding and really underrated.
All you can ask for is signs of improvement and the full backs are more vindication for this coaching team. Add Wan Bissaka and Shaw to Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba, Matic, Fred, McTominay and Williams as players who have shown genuine improvement under this coaching team.
Wan Bissaka was really poor offensively when he first joined but he's showing real improvement of late. Shaw has been ever present in this unbeaten run, his defensive positioning has been great and his energy to overlap Rashford is the best I've seen from him.
Shaw's final ball still needs work and he attacks way too narrow for my liking but the signs are great. He's the best English left back in the Premier League at the moment. His defensive positioning is outstanding and really underrated.
All you can ask for is signs of improvement and the full backs are more vindication for this coaching team. Add Wan Bissaka and Shaw to Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Bruno, Pogba, Matic, Fred, McTominay and Williams as players who have shown genuine improvement under this coaching team.
Our full backs are more than good enough defensively. Can't say the same thing about our CBs though. Afer spending nearly £120 m in 3 years on 2 new CBs, we're still talking about their clear weaknesses and upgrading/finding a better partner for them which is absurd after spending that money.
Sir Alex’s teams weren’t always free scoring sides. The 08/09 title winning team surprisingly only scored 68 goals but conceded only 24. Our back 4 was really a difference maker, we won a lot of close games that year. If we were on that pace defensively this year we’d probably be sitting comfortably in 3rd or 2nd.
The main problem has been fixed, prior this season, defense had no leadership & composure. Now is completely different.
We only conceded 33 league goals, only two teams conceded more than us and there is potential we could end the season with 2nd rank for less conceded. It could have been better if DDG can cut his silly mistakes as well.
Only some minor problems to fixed left for the next step of challenging the title, but so far looks positive.
We only conceded 33 league goals, only two teams conceded more than us and there is potential we could end the season with 2nd rank for less conceded. It could have been better if DDG can cut his silly mistakes as well.
Only some minor problems to fixed left for the next step of challenging the title, but so far looks positive.
Was our defense fixed - yes, absolutely (simply compare our goals against to last year). But...
Is our defense great - no.
Is our defense good - yes.
Can you win league with this defense - probably (just add Sancho and Grealish
)
Is our defense great - no.
Is our defense good - yes.
Can you win league with this defense - probably (just add Sancho and Grealish
)The problem has been addressed not completely fixed. If we plan on competing with city and the dippers, and eventually with the elite in Europe we need to do better. Striving for a Vidic and Rio like CB partnership should be the goal. We can’t be satisfied with this and completely put it on De Gea either especially when he has saved us so many times in the past. Maguire is very good but he needs a player to compliment him and it’s not Lindelof. We can’t afford to sit on our hands when city are looking to add a world class CB to compliment Laporte.
You are not reading mate! You only read the first sentence & DDG part.
Apologies, guess the first sentence got me triggered! We agree then!
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
That is frankly ridiculous.
Excluding crosses btw. Still we are the best at this since restart and third in completing passes into 20 yard area.
Every goal we've conceded since the restart has been down to a really bad individual error (or 2). Really need to sort those out.
I guess not
35 games, 35 goals conceded
No our defence is not fixed. Too many mistakes. The opposition always look like scoring.
No. We got rid of Smalling and got someone equally as bad with the ball at right back. The difference when Shaw and AWB get it is staggering. Shaws not even the greatest going forward.
Considering Southampton repeatedly waltzed through midfield and AWB arguably had his worst game ever the fact that DDG made one save in 90 minutes actually shows that Maguire and Lindelof played quite well.
If we’d dealt with that fecking corner (conceded where one of our two injured left backs would usually cover) then it would go down as a gritty and effective central defensive performance. Fine margins.
If we’d dealt with that fecking corner (conceded where one of our two injured left backs would usually cover) then it would go down as a gritty and effective central defensive performance. Fine margins.
We could concede just 10 goals over the course of a season with these CBs and I still wouldn't trust them. They're too slow, too mistake prone, too passive, too ball watching and too average defenders etc. People read too much into those meaningless stats these days like "number of passes allowed within 20 yards of goal". Is that the measure we evaluate our defence really? Like it or not but our best CB is still the one who's playing in Italy right now and we have average CBs as our first choices. Worst thing is we paid £120m for that uninspiring combo.
They could concede 0 goals in a whole season, I will never be confident in a Lindelof and Maguire pairing
No point in having a decent defence if your goalkeeper is a feckING LOSER.
Another commanding CB is needed
Yet actually they are probably not the main problem...
We concede crucial goals, hence why our defence is statistically better placed than our league position.
We will not win a league with the defence as constructed because we don’t see out games our attack doesn’t bail us out of.
We will not win a league with the defence as constructed because we don’t see out games our attack doesn’t bail us out of.