Our midfield (or lack thereof)

[PoTMS]

Do we fancy having anyone play here? It's like hot knife through butter for literally every single one of our opponents. It's absolutely schoolboy stuff - attackers vs defenders.

How can someone who claims to be so knowledgeable on football continue to let us be so open in the middle third of the pitch?

 

[Red Royal]

Even our players on loan are having a bad time, Gore, Hanibal, van de Beek.

Mount needs a chance I guess next.

 

[Siorac]

It honestly feels like a disease at this club: managers just... give up on the centre of the park. We as a club seem to have no interest in controlling games from midfield.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We need a manager that actually values control and pinning teams back.

ETH loves to cede control. He has no interest in monopolizing the ball.

 

[AshRK]

We need a manager that actually values control and pinning teams back.

ETH loves to cede control. He has no interest in monopolizing the ball.

Which is very strange considering he was known for his control at ajax even playing top sides in CL. For him to totally bin whatever he believed in is astonishing.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Which is very strange considering he was known for his control at ajax even playing top sides in CL. For him to totally bin whatever he believed in is astonishing.

I'm pretty sure he was more direct than his Ajax predecessors too. He's not hell-bent on controlling games. I was fooled and so were others.

 

[AshRK]

I'm pretty sure he was more direct than his Ajax predecessors too. He's not hell-bent on controlling games. I was fooled and so were others.

I don't know but his ajaz team looked far more dominant on the ball and controlled most games. This is something like a guy who was workiin McDonald and has been given a job to coach.

This is why I am finding it hard to get excited for any new manager now. Maybe Nagelsmann but even that I am worried.

 

[bosnian_red]

Which is very strange considering he was known for his control at ajax even playing top sides in CL. For him to totally bin whatever he believed in is astonishing.

Nah, at Ajax he was far more open and willing to be direct than other managers. He also didn't obsess over possession ever and his big unknown that people pointed out were how he adapted with his off the ball play, given his teams had weaknesses in transition. Answer is he hasn't adapted.

It's not about valuing possession anyway or building a team in that way. But it's the off the ball work, the team defensive work that has to improve loads. There are many ways to be successful, but common denominators today are definitely high pressing sides who know how to defend as a group, restrict opposition from getting chances and are proactive with the ball. Most of that has always been the case. Ten Hag is just useless at coaching the team to be organized and connected defensively.

 

[FeedTheGoat]

I don't know but his ajaz team looked far more dominant on the ball and controlled most games. This is something like a guy who was workiin McDonald and has been given a job to coach.

This is why I am finding it hard to get excited for any new manager now. Maybe Nagelsmann but even that I am worried.

That Ajax team had mostly players that were drilled in total football from a young age, and had just been coached by Peter Bosz who is probably the biggest Cruyff disciple going behind Pep and a very good coach in his own right.

Ten Hag following Bosz is a bit like Wenger taking over George Graham's defensive organisation and then it becomes a small window of a perfect marriage of styles.

 

[In Rainbows]

There are many ways to be successful, but common denominators today are definitely high pressing sides who know how to defend as a group, restrict opposition from getting chances and are proactive with the ball. Most of that has always been the case. Ten Hag is just useless at coaching the team to be organized and connected defensively.

That is able to be done with sides being compact. He seems to not value this.

 

[bosnian_red]

That is able to be done with sides being compact. He seems to not value this.

It's defending basics and we don't do it, which is why we get stats like our shots conceded that are extreme outliers

 

[LDUred]

Selling Fred without having an actual replacement was just complete and utter stupidity.

The style of play ETH is trying to play requires players who can press and run.

I am not suggesting Fred was some world beater but without signing an upgrade, why on earth would you get rid of a useful player.

Our midfield is dominated week in, week out by everyone.

 

[Ali Dia]

It honestly feels like a disease at this club: managers just... give up on the centre of the park. We as a club seem to have no interest in controlling games from midfield.

I feel like you need enough physically dominant and dirty players to win the right for your few skilful players to produce the magic. Who in this squad is like that? Who is entering their physical prime
and good enough on the ball to make a difference at the top level? Who else is leading us on the pitch after Bruno? The club is a mess right now.

 

[pocco]

That Ajax team had mostly players that were drilled in total football from a young age, and had just been coached by Peter Bosz who is probably the biggest Cruyff disciple going behind Pep and a very good coach in his own right.

Ten Hag following Bosz is a bit like Wenger taking over George Graham's defensive organisation and then it becomes a small window of a perfect marriage of styles.

Yeah I've made this point a while ago. Bosz genuinely laid the foundations of a well coached team there, who dominated games in their league and even got to the EL final. Ten Hag seemed to channel that to a more transitional style, which is why I find the argument that he's not brought his Ajax football here to be quite moot. He's actually implementing what he brought to them, only we're not a well coached side to behind with and he hasn't been able to bring anything to the table to help that side of things.

Every time I mention Bosz I check the Eredivisie table to see how he's doing, and he's still only lost 1 game this season with PSV. He's probably going to have a better season that ETH ever did domestically, with what is probably a worse team. Yet when he ventured away from Eredivisie he didn't fare too well.

EDIT: Just had a look at the last PSV game and their opposition had 0 shots all game

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Yeah I've made this point a while ago. Bosz genuinely laid the foundations of a well coached team there, who dominated games in their league and even got to the EL final. Ten Hag seemed to channel that to a more transitional style, which is why I find the argument that he's not brought his Ajax football here to be quite moot. He's actually implementing what he brought to them, only we're not a well coached side to behind with and he hasn't been able to bring anything to the table to help that side of things.

Every time I mention Bosz I check the Eredivisie table to see how he's doing, and he's still only lost 1 game this season with PSV. He's probably going to have a better season that ETH ever did domestically, with what is probably a worse team. Yet when he ventured away from Eredivisie he didn't fare too well.

EDIT: Just had a look at the last PSV game and their opposition had 0 shots all game

Sums it up well.

He heavily benefited from the work others did while sharing his own vision.

I got conned by him.

 

[Pintu]

We should have brought in Amrabat towards the end to try and see this out.

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[AshRK]

We should have brought in Amrabat towards the end to try and see this out.

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We should have brought on Amad for Bruno and we could have killed the game by 85th minute.

 

[eire-red]

The mad thing is how glaringly obvious this problem has been all season. Like literally 40 odd games in and we're seeing the exact same problems that we saw on the opening day when Wolves waltzed through our midfield.

As @LDUred said, selling Fred was a bit of a gamble when we didn't replace him at all. For all of his shortcomings, he had a role in this team and we ultimately brought in Amrabat who is nowhere near the level required either.

We'd probably not be much better off with Fred in all honesty, we all had our fair share of complaints with him too, but it speaks to the lack of coherent thought that we didn't bring in a dynamic ball winner and someone with his engine. He popped up with some nice moments in an attacking sense too.

I guess the grand plan was to get Mount in that role beside Casemiro and gradually phase Mainoo in, but both are very different players and ultimately our midfield currently looks like an issue of both set-up and personell at the moment. The worst type of combination.

 

[Dans]

I honestly think that as long as we have Fernandes in the team we won't have a midfield that is capable of stemming the attacking flows that innundate us game after game. He gives the ball away far, far too often. The risk reward factor is clearly not there enough for us to consistently profit more than lose as a result of his risk taking.

 

[Chaky_Best]

I honestly think that as long as we have Fernandes in the team we won't have a midfield that is capable of stemming the attacking flows that innundate us game after game. He gives the ball away far, far too often. The risk reward factor is clearly not there enough for us to consistently profit more than lose as a result of his risk taking.

Don't want to protect Bruno, because I think that overall his game, like the rest, was below average, but he mainly played number 8 this game, with Mainoo higher, and in the second half, he looked even deeper than Casemiro.

He can do a lot of things, but I am not sure that in this configuration suits him.

Looks like the plan was a man marking in midfield, with Bruno on Enzo and Mainoo's strengh on Caicedo, but the longer the game went, the deeper Bruno went, the more Enzo had the ball, so I assume that the setup is too difficult.

 

[pocco]

The mad thing is how glaringly obvious this problem has been all season. Like literally 40 odd games in and we're seeing the exact same problems that we saw on the opening day when Wolves waltzed through our midfield.

As @LDUred said, selling Fred was a bit of a gamble when we didn't replace him at all. For all of his shortcomings, he had a role in this team and we ultimately brought in Amrabat who is nowhere near the level required either.

We'd probably not be much better off with Fred in all honesty, we all had our fair share of complaints with him too, but it speaks to the lack of coherent thought that we didn't bring in a dynamic ball winner and someone with his engine. He popped up with some nice moments in an attacking sense too.

I guess the grand plan was to get Mount in that role beside Casemiro and gradually phase Mainoo in, but both are very different players and ultimately our midfield currently looks like an issue of both set-up and personell at the moment. The worst type of combination.

I never thought I'd say this but we do miss Fred. His energy and athleticism was never replaced, the club and Ten Bag obviously decided that Amrabat was the one, but have inexplicably just completely given up on him already after a few months. Having said that, they were always wrong about Amrabat and the warnings were there from people who had seen him and even our scouts. I won't get into the way the fans built him up...

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Mainno right now is our ONLY viable center midfielder.

 

[Borys]

I'd imagine most managers would now probably play Casemiro/Mainoo in more conservative roles and Mount in AM role. It's not like Casemiro and Mainoo are defensive midfielders who don't contribute to the play.

We have to play two #10s high up the pitch though, sorry guys.

 

[Abraxas]

It's extremely poor. Teams just run straight through us with no particular special effort. The setup is wrong and the personnel is wrong because they don't have the legs to do the job in Casimero's case and the alternatives like McTominay are not good defensively. Casimero is done.

It leaves Mainoo as an 18 year old very exposed. He's a kid, not every area of his game is ready for this level which is standard, many technical parts are but he's not the finished product. So to have him with these partners is a big issue, there's no protection or guidance for him, he must look next to him and wonder what the heck is going on.

 

[Ikon]

Just a reminder about Liverpool.
They shipped out Fabinho, Henderson, Keita, Oxlade & Milner, and signed 4 new faces in MacAllister, Szoboszlai, Endo & Gravenberch all in ONE transfer window, with a net spend of around £100m

They already won the League Cup, and are on course to win the Europa and Premier League..!

So they've proven that with a clear plan and determination, it can be very quickly turned around, it doesn't have to take years and another Billion spent.

 

[ForeverRed1]

I like Onana at Everton and still only 22. Wouldn’t be too ridiculous in price. Also kimmich from Bayern if you want to bring in someone in late 20s who Mainoo can learn from. Onana, kimmich, Mainoo, Mount isn’t too bad

 

[didz]

Don't want to protect Bruno, because I think that overall his game, like the rest, was below average, but he mainly played number 8 this game, with Mainoo higher, and in the second half, he looked even deeper than Casemiro.

He can do a lot of things, but I am not sure that in this configuration suits him.

Looks like the plan was a man marking in midfield, with Bruno on Enzo and Mainoo's strengh on Caicedo, but the longer the game went, the deeper Bruno went, the more Enzo had the ball, so I assume that the setup is too difficult.

I think Bruno was just searching for the ball deeper and deeper as the game went on. Chelsea pressed pretty well, and both Casemiro and Mainoo had struggles taking the ball in our own third, culminating in Bruno even going between the centre halves for our goal kicks. It would have helped if we had someone who can play on the turn and dribble who wasn't 18, but that's a problem we've had in forever. Maybe since Pogba was last regularly fit however long ago that was.

 

[youngrell]

I think it's quite clear by now that it is not the midfielders but the space they are being asked to cover. Whoever comes in faces the same problems to varying degrees. The gap between defence (to low) and the attack (to high) is way too much and is impossible for our players to cover correctly. They each have individual deficiencies which compound the situation but the lack of a compact team is the main culprit to this openness. I can only imagine someone like Bruno has a heat map covering around 60 metres square in the middle of the park. It's ridiculous.

With our attack being quite easy to bypass also, this puts even more load on the midfield as they have zero rest between plays. The defence needs to work harder to get up the pitch and the attack needs to work harder to prevent easy counters and to also get back and help out more. The players will soon realise that they will be working less overall when they do this, as they will limit attacking opportunities for the opponents and have more of the ball. I don't know if it's a confidence issue, if they haven't got the intelligence to condense the spaces or some are just too lazy.

 

[Baneofthegame]

Probably not helped when the defence is sat 40 yards from the best and it leaves an ocean of space for the opposition midfield to easily exploit.

Mainoo doesn’t have the stamina currently and is playing a lot, everyone else in midfield isn’t mobile enough to cover the ground so we give away a lot of opportunities to anyway we face.

The harsh reality is we need at least in the summer:

Two mobile CB’s
Two CM’s
RB or LB
RW
Backup Striker

At least.

 

[Banana Republic]

The most important line of defence and the most important defenders should be the central midfield.
How the club has neglected strengthening our obvious weaknesses there, from Ole’s time and even worst under ETH, is beyond comprehension.
Teams, from the top to the bottom of the league, are cutting through us with ease in almost every game.

Casemiro did a good job for half a season last year, but he‘s now done physically.
Mainoo is a great talent, but he’s still an inexperienced kid, with a lot of physical and playing development ahead of him. He’s being over-exposed by the failings elsewhere.
McTominey is hopeless defensively in MF. Too passive and slow, not reading the play or being proactive and backing off all the time.
Bruno, Eriksen and Mount are nowhere near suited to the CDM responsibilities required in the modern game.
Amrabat is a loan player who will be gone in a couple of months. ETH has clearly lost faith in him.

I’d give this department the highest priority in the coming transfer window.
We need 2 highly mobile, high energy CM players, above the need to overhaul the CB and FB positions.
That and a striker.

 

[Woziak]

Right now, many United fans are seeing just how stupid it was to sell Fred for £9m and bring in Amrabat on loan for the same fee, beyond stupidity and a shining example of John Murtough and ETH ineptitude during their recent tenure!

What makes it even more stupid is you had another workaholic midfield player in Sabitzer cast out too when he was more than adequate to be a back up in our midfield, it just beggars belief on how badly run a club we are?