Not in Bayern's either. He isn't better than Thiago or James.
Out of our squad: Which of those players would get into the other PL ”top 6”
- Thread starter simplyared
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Sarcasm surely?
James is basically a winger/attacking mid,not a CM
*Didn't realize you were a culé,makes more sense
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Re Arsenal.
So you think that MUFC will finish the season on the same points as Arsenal?
We are 3 games into the season and people are throwing in the towel. WTF!!!
De Gea - obviously and S Romero
Bailly, Shaw, - Current form and potential only from our defensive options, (with the caveat that even Jones, Smalling, Young and Rojo would walk into the Arsenal team!)
Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Fred, A Herrera - Would all get in most top 6 squads in Midfield
Sanchez(but on reputation only), Rashford, Martial and Lukaku - Would all make most Top 6 squads
And there lies the problem, the defence is a shambles, similar in make up to Arsenal......plus if the Midfield and attacking options realise you can't keep a clean sheet they become despondent knowing you need 3 to 4 goals per game to win and Jose sets up to win 1-0 or 2-0 . A maximum of 13 or 14 players shows you just how bad the recruitment has been in the last 6 years!
Bailly, Shaw, - Current form and potential only from our defensive options, (with the caveat that even Jones, Smalling, Young and Rojo would walk into the Arsenal team!)
Matic, Pogba, Lingard, Fred, A Herrera - Would all get in most top 6 squads in Midfield
Sanchez(but on reputation only), Rashford, Martial and Lukaku - Would all make most Top 6 squads
And there lies the problem, the defence is a shambles, similar in make up to Arsenal......plus if the Midfield and attacking options realise you can't keep a clean sheet they become despondent knowing you need 3 to 4 goals per game to win and Jose sets up to win 1-0 or 2-0 . A maximum of 13 or 14 players shows you just how bad the recruitment has been in the last 6 years!
A sensible question that may be for another thread is how many players outside the so called Top 6 could easily step up for 6 teams and be a significant upgrades on the deadweight.
I will not include Goalkeepers because all the Top 6 are now well represented;
Centre Backs : H Maguire, J Lascelles, J Tarkowski, A Mawson, B Mee, Y Mina, N Ake, I Diop,
Wing Backs: Kenedy, R Betrand, C Soares, R Sessegnon, B Chillwell, J Schlupp, W Bissaka, R Fredericks
Midfield: J Maddison, A Doucoure, R Pereya, W Hughes, G Sigurdsson, I Gueye, L Cook, L Dendonker, M Meyer, R Neves,
M Lanzini,
Wingers: D Gray, W Zaha, A Townsend, H Costa, A Traore, F Anderson,
Strikers: J Vardy, T Walcott, C Wilson, R Jimenez, M Arnautovic, J Hernandez
A list of over 40 players, some of whom United would have recruited under Sir Alex tenure and one of which he did recruit!
I will not include Goalkeepers because all the Top 6 are now well represented;
Centre Backs : H Maguire, J Lascelles, J Tarkowski, A Mawson, B Mee, Y Mina, N Ake, I Diop,
Wing Backs: Kenedy, R Betrand, C Soares, R Sessegnon, B Chillwell, J Schlupp, W Bissaka, R Fredericks
Midfield: J Maddison, A Doucoure, R Pereya, W Hughes, G Sigurdsson, I Gueye, L Cook, L Dendonker, M Meyer, R Neves,
M Lanzini,
Wingers: D Gray, W Zaha, A Townsend, H Costa, A Traore, F Anderson,
Strikers: J Vardy, T Walcott, C Wilson, R Jimenez, M Arnautovic, J Hernandez
A list of over 40 players, some of whom United would have recruited under Sir Alex tenure and one of which he did recruit!
Young, Darmian, McTomminay. All the players that wouldn’t get in the top 6 sides. Thought that would be an easier list to do.
Yup, you either have to put an incredible amount of thought into how each club plays and the tactics/formation they deploy or you don't bother doing it at all.
Much depends on formations and tactics. Even City have players who wouldn't get into other top 6 teams: Bravo, Muric, Delph, Zinchenko. They are decent squad players for them though.
I understand what you're saying with this but what I'm trying to put forward is we have too many players lining up for us who wouldn't make the Chelsea line-up today. Which would be the likes of:
Valencia, Shaw, Lindelöf, Smalling, Jones, Young, Herrera, Fred, Mata, Lingard, Rashford. If you were looking at Liverpool, City or even Spurs you could add a great deal more of our players who wouldn't make their starting line-ups or even the bench in those teams.
Without taking too much consideration to who the manager happens to be.
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So Conte went straight from great in 16/17 to average in 17/18 according to this logic I guess ?
That is exactly my point. During 17/18 He failed to motivate the team, alienated and frustrated players like Willian and David Luiz, fought for power with management. That is why the almost same team played much worse. see the logic yet?
Sounds all too familiar...
These sorts of threads dont mean much.
Right now? None. Were a team without form or confidence. In a world where were on a great run and playing well as a team de gea, bailly, shaw, pogba, matic, martial, lukaku, sanchez and arguably more would fit in any top 6 team. Look at city- how would delph have fared with us last year? Fernandinho? Sterling? Sane?
When a team is playing well players look capable of playing anywhere and when its not they look poor. Under Ferguson there were times where there was such a rhythm of winning we had several players mot hugely rated just come into the team fairly seamlessly and play a part in winning. Heinze, silvestre, oshea, park, fletcher, younger carrick, anderson, nani etc could all look incredible in a winning team.
Right now? None. Were a team without form or confidence. In a world where were on a great run and playing well as a team de gea, bailly, shaw, pogba, matic, martial, lukaku, sanchez and arguably more would fit in any top 6 team. Look at city- how would delph have fared with us last year? Fernandinho? Sterling? Sane?
When a team is playing well players look capable of playing anywhere and when its not they look poor. Under Ferguson there were times where there was such a rhythm of winning we had several players mot hugely rated just come into the team fairly seamlessly and play a part in winning. Heinze, silvestre, oshea, park, fletcher, younger carrick, anderson, nani etc could all look incredible in a winning team.
No I don't.
Conte fal with the board because they didn't support him in the market and were buying players on their own view without returning to him. He wanted more control to improve the team after the league win, not to get rewarded by Morata and Bakayoko.
Conte left Juve for similar conditions too, when he got in problems with the board on transfers and felt that they aren't supporting him, he decided to quit midway in the preseason.
Chelsea fecking up the market also happened and played a role in Mourinho crisis when they decided to not improve the team and signed players Mourinho didn't want. Conte season was just a repeatation for this mistake.
And it looks like it'll be the case for us this season as well.
Chelsea not got a very "yes" manager who never presses his board on improving the team with more players or ask for more tansfers. He must be a dream for them.
but the thread is about what players will get in the top 6, they're still a top 6 side aren't they?
Not aiming to compete is completely different to not being competitive for the title. To claim any team in the Prem aims not to compete is stupid.
Given Pogba's transfer fee and wages, only Man City can afford him. Whether he is a good fit for Pep's system is another story.
Pogba would get into any PL team bar City, and even at City he would be the first midfielder of the bench. I think he would thrive in City's system with those players and their attacking style. As good as he's been playing do you think James Milner is going to start ahead Pogba? Pogba is still the world class midfielder he was at the World Cup and for the last 5+ years. For some reason, he can perform for every other team he plays for expect Manchester United...
I dont understand why Unites Fans think their player wont fit into other top 5. You guys have a good squad, even your CBs are not as bad as you guys make them sound.
but theres definitely lack of play pattern or players not fit for the system Mournho wants them to play.
I'd gladly take many players from your squad in our team (Rashford,Alexis, Martial, Pogba, DdG, Bailey.). The only player I wouldnt want is Lukaku. I think despite his scoring record, he's simply a better version of Benteke and wont fit our system.
but theres definitely lack of play pattern or players not fit for the system Mournho wants them to play.
I'd gladly take many players from your squad in our team (Rashford,Alexis, Martial, Pogba, DdG, Bailey.). The only player I wouldnt want is Lukaku. I think despite his scoring record, he's simply a better version of Benteke and wont fit our system.
If we are talking first 11:
City - none (although De Gea is obviously better than Ederson bar distribution)
Liverpool - De Gea, Smalling, Pogba
Chelsea - De Gea, Alexis, Lukaku
Tottenham - De Gea
City - none (although De Gea is obviously better than Ederson bar distribution)
Liverpool - De Gea, Smalling, Pogba
Chelsea - De Gea, Alexis, Lukaku
Tottenham - De Gea
Pogba played in the same position as DeBruyne in the Worldcup and also was better IMO.
It's down to coaching. De Gea for example, wouldn't make it to Pep's team because of his ball distrubion.
We have a good squad, just not the squad Mourinho wanted to build.
It's down to coaching. De Gea for example, wouldn't make it to Pep's team because of his ball distrubion.
We have a good squad, just not the squad Mourinho wanted to build.
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Lingard would struggle to get a regular game for Everton never mind a top 4 club.
Rojo is honking never United class.
Darmain the same as Rojo.
Mata the same as Darmain and Rojo although he has amazing ability and could have been good at some point he just has no legs anymore and hampers us badly in that position.
Herrera decent back up.
Lindelof is poor.
Rojo is honking never United class.
Darmain the same as Rojo.
Mata the same as Darmain and Rojo although he has amazing ability and could have been good at some point he just has no legs anymore and hampers us badly in that position.
Herrera decent back up.
Lindelof is poor.
De Gea - Although again as Sarri Ball progress's he would need a lot of practise as his kicking is not particularly great, but he is the best shot stopper out there
Pogba - Because we've all seen what Kante can do for him, and him Jorghino and Kante would just be unfairly strong
Sanchez - If he would be willing to play RW, but if he was playing LW then hell no
Shaw - Would take shaw over Alonso, might lost a few clutch goals but would be more balanced as a team
Pogba - Because we've all seen what Kante can do for him, and him Jorghino and Kante would just be unfairly strong
Sanchez - If he would be willing to play RW, but if he was playing LW then hell no
Shaw - Would take shaw over Alonso, might lost a few clutch goals but would be more balanced as a team
As much as I like the point. I think there are few players who woul have a shot in other teams. I think Lukaku in more effective counter attacking style would play for some other team bar city and Pogba for ahure everyone would take a punt, he’s unique player, he just need some proper coaching. Valencia could alternate in top teams, just need a system where he doesn’t play alone on the wing. Smalling could play next to VVD instead of Lovren etc. as much as depends on the style of a manager we have some great players just lacking in coaching, how come Martial can be so good on the wing under Van Gaal and so bad under Mou 2 years under his development where he should be better. Can understand some players doesnt get along with a manager but haven’t seen so many under our current gaffer...
Arsenal aim has been top 4 finish for over a decade now. Otherwise Wenger woupd have been sacked earlie and they would have spent more the previous years.
De Gea - Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs (city and Liverpool debateable due to distribution issue)
Valencia - Arsenal (based on last year he could get into Chelsea, potentially Liverpool too)
Bailly - Any of top 6 if playing well
Shaw - if fully fit and lean, Spurs and Arsenal. Other clubs already have good left backs so it’s touch and go.
Pogba - any of top 6 bar (he’d be amazing at Liverpool alongside Keita with a cdm behind him) City, debateable as I don’t see him as a Pep style player - too flamboyant for a mid.
Martial - on form any of top 6 though Liverpool is touch and go as Mané is better up and down, pressing and able to playmake too. He’s equal to Sane if firing on all cylinders. For Chelsea he would be up top. Hard to see how he would fit tactically at Spurs (probably how Lucas is being used but on opposite flank - no room for both in same side).
Lukaku - wouldn’t get into Spurs, Liverpool or City first team as he’s a bad fit for their tactical systems compared to who they have. Would start for Chelsea and Arsenal.
Sanchez - hard to tell as he’s so out of form and some are saying he’s a busted flush. Preseason looked sharp again as a striker. In a striker role, he could potentially play for anyone but as a winger .. only Arsenal and Spurs would take him. Chelsea might take him if he wanted to play on the right.
Lingard - Arsenal. He’s a good fit for Liverpool and City as a rotation option - solid presser and possession player.
Smalling - Arsenal.
Romero - Arsenal.
Matic - (on last season form) Any of the top 6 as a starter bar City where he’d rotate. Liverpool would love him and Chelsea desperately need a proper CDM imo who can play ball too. With age just needs to be rested often and used cleverly.
Fred - early signs suggest he has the technical quality to play for any of top 6 but it is early to say with confidence. Probably Liverpool he’d struggle to get in as he shares same role as Keïta who is superior.
Herrera - could play for Liverpool, and start at Arsenal. Deffo rotation option for most of the top 6.
Valencia - Arsenal (based on last year he could get into Chelsea, potentially Liverpool too)
Bailly - Any of top 6 if playing well
Shaw - if fully fit and lean, Spurs and Arsenal. Other clubs already have good left backs so it’s touch and go.
Pogba - any of top 6 bar (he’d be amazing at Liverpool alongside Keita with a cdm behind him) City, debateable as I don’t see him as a Pep style player - too flamboyant for a mid.
Martial - on form any of top 6 though Liverpool is touch and go as Mané is better up and down, pressing and able to playmake too. He’s equal to Sane if firing on all cylinders. For Chelsea he would be up top. Hard to see how he would fit tactically at Spurs (probably how Lucas is being used but on opposite flank - no room for both in same side).
Lukaku - wouldn’t get into Spurs, Liverpool or City first team as he’s a bad fit for their tactical systems compared to who they have. Would start for Chelsea and Arsenal.
Sanchez - hard to tell as he’s so out of form and some are saying he’s a busted flush. Preseason looked sharp again as a striker. In a striker role, he could potentially play for anyone but as a winger .. only Arsenal and Spurs would take him. Chelsea might take him if he wanted to play on the right.
Lingard - Arsenal. He’s a good fit for Liverpool and City as a rotation option - solid presser and possession player.
Smalling - Arsenal.
Romero - Arsenal.
Matic - (on last season form) Any of the top 6 as a starter bar City where he’d rotate. Liverpool would love him and Chelsea desperately need a proper CDM imo who can play ball too. With age just needs to be rested often and used cleverly.
Fred - early signs suggest he has the technical quality to play for any of top 6 but it is early to say with confidence. Probably Liverpool he’d struggle to get in as he shares same role as Keïta who is superior.
Herrera - could play for Liverpool, and start at Arsenal. Deffo rotation option for most of the top 6.
We have plenty of good individuals who could probably get into other teams. Problem is that we cannot get them to play together as a team. In terms of being a “team” we are the worst of the top 6.
De Gea has the worst distribution in the league and isn't the best at coming off his line.
Pep wouldn't take a second look at him.
Pep wouldn't take a second look at him.
I stick with this being my combined Liverpool/United XI
DDG
TAA (or Dalot, we'll see), VVD, Bailly, Robertson
Matic
Keita Pogba
Salah Firmino Mane
Cases to be made for Lukaku & Sanchez over Firmino & Mane, but given our style of play & how well I know the former work, I'd be reluctant to swap. Valencia probably deserves the RB spot, but I'm not swapping a really bright looking 19 YO for someone who must be 33/34 at this point.
DDG
TAA (or Dalot, we'll see), VVD, Bailly, Robertson
Matic
Keita Pogba
Salah Firmino Mane
Cases to be made for Lukaku & Sanchez over Firmino & Mane, but given our style of play & how well I know the former work, I'd be reluctant to swap. Valencia probably deserves the RB spot, but I'm not swapping a really bright looking 19 YO for someone who must be 33/34 at this point.
Most of our starting 11 would get into any EPL team, and would at the very least be competing strongly for a starting place. Perhaps the CBs would struggle, but that's about it.
Bailly ?? Honestly, where have you be watching him?
Last season - I've not watched any of your games this season.
Either way, you can pick a few United CBs to pair VVD. VVD seemingly has this aura that makes his CB partner play less like a prat to the extent where he's even making Lovren look half decent
@Don _ Conte
Good point Re: Azpi, though I was still talking as though he was still a CB in a back three.
Bailly is going through a shocking loss of form and his confidence has been shot. Still think there is potential in there for a top defender, but he now seems to be falling into that category of defender who needs a Van Dijk or a peak Kompany alongside him, guys who organise the back line and exude calmness rather than being a reliable leading pillar himself. He's a 'secondary' defender and not a 'primary' one.
Good point Re: Azpi, though I was still talking as though he was still a CB in a back three.
Bailly is going through a shocking loss of form and his confidence has been shot. Still think there is potential in there for a top defender, but he now seems to be falling into that category of defender who needs a Van Dijk or a peak Kompany alongside him, guys who organise the back line and exude calmness rather than being a reliable leading pillar himself. He's a 'secondary' defender and not a 'primary' one.
I do generally agree, although we have some glaring inadequacies to be addressed in FB/CB/RW, we do have a squad full of talent, but just dont seem to have a clue how fit the pieces together to build a good team.
But I have no doubt that players such as Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku ETC can form the backbone of a tremendous team, in the right hands..!
Several on paper, 1-2 in reality.
Most of our players tbh they are really underperforming at the moment which is quite sad to see.
From a combined Spurs X1 , only Shaw from Monday would improve Spurs .
But over the season, I would take De Gea into the first team, and Pogba (but he’d have to work a damn sight harder) and Lindgard, would challenge Dembele and Alli , and a step up from Sissoko .
Just an added extra I consider HKs missed header a far bigger miss, than Lukaku.
But over the season, I would take De Gea into the first team, and Pogba (but he’d have to work a damn sight harder) and Lindgard, would challenge Dembele and Alli , and a step up from Sissoko .
Just an added extra I consider HKs missed header a far bigger miss, than Lukaku.
Yeah, for Spurs I'd take Pogba for sure ... and then maybe Shaw if he has found his form again. He'd have to beat out Davies though, and Davies has turned into an excellent footballer in his own right (Davies is Spurs #1 LB, Rose is the backup). De Gea is a better keeper than Lloris, but Lloris is so essential in the dressing room and as basically Pochettino's lieutenant that I cannot imagine the club the way it is without him.
The last one is Martial, a player that Pochettino has coveted for ages. I don't know if he would be an automatic starter with Lucas, Son, Lamela and Alli also competing for similar positions (none of them are automatic either, Poch rotates all of them) ... but no question he would be heavily involved.
Other than that ... pass. And hard pass on any the defenders not named Shaw. They are fecking dire for a club that level of United.
The last one is Martial, a player that Pochettino has coveted for ages. I don't know if he would be an automatic starter with Lucas, Son, Lamela and Alli also competing for similar positions (none of them are automatic either, Poch rotates all of them) ... but no question he would be heavily involved.
Other than that ... pass. And hard pass on any the defenders not named Shaw. They are fecking dire for a club that level of United.
I agree with the sentiment but the problem runs deeper, mainly because if you look at the players most agree would get into other 'top' sides then you're practically splitting hairs between them and another player of similar stature. For example, yes De Gea would get into City, Spurs and Liverpool's sides but they are hardly weak in the GK department
Where we are weak, defence for example, we are VERY weak. The likes of Young, Smalling, Lindelof and Valencia probably wouldn't get into some sides hovering around mid-table
Where we are weak, defence for example, we are VERY weak. The likes of Young, Smalling, Lindelof and Valencia probably wouldn't get into some sides hovering around mid-table