Overrated youth academies

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

What are some teams that have a huge reputation for their youth development/academies that don't actually deliver?

Arsenal springs to mind, I can't remember the last quality player that ended up playing in their starting lineup - they seem to be latching onto Wilshere who didn't really amount to much. West Ham in recent years too, remember the hype of Reece Oxford and Declan Rice just because they came from West Ham.

 

[Dancfc]

I think the Arsenal hype is more down to the late 00's when Wenger went on a youth project (with Cesc, Diaby etc) with some degree of success, i don't think their academy was particularly highly rated.

 

[Based Adnan]

Liverpool always have some sort of prospect they're hyping up but beyond Trent there hasn't really been anyone for a while. Maybe Sterling if you want to count him though they brought him in at 15.

Wonder what Dani Pacheco, Samed Yeşil, Jordan Rossiter and Andre Wisdom are up to.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

I think the Arsenal hype is more down to the late 00's when Wenger went on a youth project (with Cesc, Diaby etc) with some degree of success, i don't think their academy was particularly highly rated.

Fair enough, Diaby really could have been something had it not been for the injuries.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

Liverpool always have some sort of prospect they're hyping up but beyond Trent there hasn't really been anyone for a while. Maybe Sterling if you want to count him though they brought him in at 15.

Wonder what Dani Pacheco, Samed Yeşil, Jordan Rossiter and Andre Wisdom are up to.

Think I saw some of their fans say Woodburn was better than Rashford at one point.

 

[Ludens the Red]

100% West Ham, one half decent player since their mid 90’s group of Lampard, Cole, Ferdinand and Carrick.

 

[horsechoker]

La masia isn't what it was in the 2000s

 

[limerickcitykid]

I think the Arsenal hype is more down to the late 00's when Wenger went on a youth project (with Cesc, Diaby etc) with some degree of success, i don't think their academy was particularly highly rated.

Diaby isn’t from their academy. And that is exactly where the false hype of Arsenal’s academy comes from. They had a lot of young players, virtually none of which were actually from their academy. And because of that everyone just claims their academy has been great.

 

[Andi Latte]

La masia isn't what it was in the 2000s

Came here to say Barcelona. One of their best products after the somewhat golden generation of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi is Pedro ffs

Maybe that decline in youth quality forced them into this strange policy of massively overspending for hyped-up "youngsters" like Dembele or Coutinho.

 

[Cliche Guevara]

Every one apart from United and maybe Ajax.

 

[edcunited1878]

Came here to say Barcelona. One of their best products after the somewhat golden generation of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi is Pedro ffs

Maybe that decline in youth quality forced them into this strange policy of massively overspending for hyped-up "youngsters" like Dembele or Coutinho.

Pique, Delofeu, Adama Traore, Busquets, Jordi Alba? Obviously not the likes of a previous generation but still good.

 

[Utdstar01]

Pique, Delofeu, Adama Traore, Busquets, Jordi Alba? Obviously not the likes of a previous generation but still good.

Alba was bought from Valencia.

 

[edcunited1878]

Alba was bought from Valencia.

He was in Barca's youth setup then released then went to Valencia.

 

[horsechoker]

Pique, Delofeu, Adama Traore, Busquets, Jordi Alba? Obviously not the likes of a previous generation but still good.

There was the golden generation but since then they haven't produced players like their reputation alludes to. Commentators and pundits always make reference to someone being a la masia graduate, however since the late 2000s the quality has declined but its still talked about like its producing another generation of Messis, Busquets and Piques.

 

[Utdstar01]

He was in Barca's youth setup then released then went to Valencia.

Oh yeah just seen. He went to Cornella after Barca for a couple of years apparently, then to Valencia in 2007.

 

[DWelbz19]

Every one apart from United and maybe Ajax.

Lyon are great too from the ‘bigger’ clubs. Often understated

 

[edcunited1878]

There was the golden generation but since then they haven't produced players like their reputation alludes to. Commentators and pundits always make reference to someone being a la masia graduate, however since the late 2000s the quality has declined but its still talked about like its producing another generation of Messis, Busquets and Piques.

Completely agree...in reality, once Barca began to become corporatized with their jersey front sponsorship, Qatar, their Mes Que Un Club doesn't mean anything anymore, including their La Masia as you and others have pointed out.

 

[edcunited1878]

Oh yeah just seen. He went to Cornella after Barca for a couple of years apparently, then to Valencia in 2007.

Even then, it's not so clear for a player like that. I wouldn't exactly or clearly pin Alba as a Barca academy player as he made his youth and pro career at Valencia just as much.

 

[Andersonson]

Arsenals youth and reserve teams has been doing good the last 5 years too.
Was in the FA cup youth final and lost to Chelsea in 2018
And the reserve team was champion in the higest league in 2018.

They also have some great prospects coming through. I dont think they're overrated.

 

[limerickcitykid]

Even then, it's not so clear for a player like that. I wouldn't exactly or clearly pin Alba as a Barca academy player as he made his youth and pro career at Valencia just as much.

He spent 7 years in Barcelona’s academy. Which part of that are you finding hard to pin? He virtually spent no time in Valencia’s academy and where he made his pro career is completely irrelevant to what academies he came through.

 

[edcunited1878]

He spent 7 years in Barcelona’s academy. Which part of that are you finding hard to pin? He virtually spent no time in Valencia’s academy and where he made his pro career is completely irrelevant to what academies he came through.

That's my oversight...so then explain the youth academy where Paul Pogba is from? Prior to United, he was at Le Havre and two other clubs. Having parameters on what classifies a players youth academy before 16 and before their first team senior debut is important. Sancho is as much a Watford academy product than City academy product similar to Alba because he spent 7 years at Watford before a couple at City.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

What are some teams that have a huge reputation for their youth development/academies that don't actually deliver?

Arsenal springs to mind, I can't remember the last quality player that ended up playing in their starting lineup - they seem to be latching onto Wilshere who didn't really amount to much. West Ham in recent years too, remember the hype of Reece Oxford and Declan Rice just because they came from West Ham.

West Ham have a good academy.

Never heard anyone talk about Arsenal.

 

[elmo]

Barcelona.

They're basically living off the reputation from 1 generation of great academy players.

Man City.

They've always mentioned how they've gotten the best facilities/coaches/players in their youth setup but their last youth player that made it through is Richards/Hart?

 

[Luke1995]

Norwich has got a reputation for producing great prospects but not sure if that's 100% true

 

[RyRoc]

What are some teams that have a huge reputation for their youth development/academies that don't actually deliver?

Arsenal springs to mind, I can't remember the last quality player that ended up playing in their starting lineup - they seem to be latching onto Wilshere who didn't really amount to much. West Ham in recent years too, remember the hype of Reece Oxford and Declan Rice just because they came from West Ham.

Don't think Arsenal's academy was the thing that was ever really bigged up, it was more that after moving to the Emirates quite a lot of money was spent on 16-18 year old players from across the globe (by quite a lot of money , I mean at the time for teenagers) which was different from the usual strategy of just trying to pick up the best talent in Britain. In addition for a good 10-15 year period between 1996-2011 Wenger was probably seen as the best or one of the best managers at developing young talent.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Really surprised to see people mention Barcelona here and say they are overrated because they had one batch of great players, it's almost as if people like Puyol, Valdes, Thiago Motta, Fabregas, Reina, Pep, Ferrer, Thiago Alcantara don't exist. And even recently you have players like Sergi Roberto playing regularly for them and now Ansu Fati coming through, within other leagues Adama Traore is becoming big at Wolves and Marc Barta played a couple of seasons in the first team, then played at Dortmund as well.

They've had plenty of players coming through not only their first team but other teams.

 

[Invictus]

Really surprised to see people mention Barcelona here and say they are overrated because they had one batch of great players, it's almost as if people like Puyol, Valdes, Thiago Motta, Fabregas, Reina, Pep, Ferrer, Thiago Alcantara don't exist. And even recently you have players like Sergi Roberto playing regularly for them and now Ansu Fati coming through, within other leagues Adama Traore is becoming big at Wolves and Marc Barta played a couple of seasons in the first team, then played at Dortmund as well.

They've had plenty of players coming through not only their first team but other teams.

Yep, agree with this. In addition to the ones you have mentioned, Sergi, Amor and Milla were academy graduates (with the former duo emerging as key figures in the Dream Team era). Also Rexach, Martín, Fusté, Tente, Gràcia and co. for the '50 and '70s, before the Cruyff inspired reorganization of La Masia. It's fair to observe that their best players were typically acquired from elsewhere prior to the hegemony of the golden generation (from Alcántara to Samitier to César to Kubala to Suárez to Segarra and so forth), and some of the exaggerated adulation is definitely cringe-worthy when Real Madrid's academy doesn't garner appropriate acclaim despite being very productive over the years — but veering in the opposite direction and undervaluing them for getting lucky with one generation is rather unfair.

 

[Ibi Dreams]

Liverpool always have some sort of prospect they're hyping up but beyond Trent there hasn't really been anyone for a while. Maybe Sterling if you want to count him though they brought him in at 15.

Wonder what Dani Pacheco, Samed Yeşil, Jordan Rossiter and Andre Wisdom are up to.

I looked up Samid Yesil the other day, he's playing in Turkey's third league. Only 25 still.

 

[Ekeke]

Manchester United, at least on this forum. Every season there's a good 5 or so players that posters suggest are going to make it in the first team and then a year or two down the line they're transfered to a championship level team for a tiny fee

 

[hasanejaz88]

I looked up Samid Yesil the other day, he's playing in Turkey's third league. Only 25 still.

Had such high hopes for him after the U17 World Cup, where he was brilliant. Two ACL injuries, one right after the other meaning he didn't okay for almost two years, was absolutely devastating for him.

 

[jus2nang]

Don't think Arsenal's academy was the thing that was ever really bigged up, it was more that after moving to the Emirates quite a lot of money was spent on 16-18 year old players from across the globe (by quite a lot of money , I mean at the time for teenagers) which was different from the usual strategy of just trying to pick up the best talent in Britain. In addition for a good 10-15 year period between 1996-2011 Wenger was probably seen as the best or one of the best managers at developing young talent.

This. Nobody really talked about Arsenal's academy because it was well known that all those youngsters were bought (Cesc, Diaby, Song etc) and complimented other players that were also quite young like Van Persie (signed at 21).

Wilshere was the only one from our academy. Funnily enough, it's only now that we've got a number of academy players in the team - Bukayo Saka, Eddie Nketiah, Joe Willock, Reiss Nelson with Emile Smith-Rowe knocking on the door.

I know this is a Man Utd forum, but what are the expectations? Because after the class of '92 I'm struggling to name top quality Man Utd academy graduates.

Welbeck & McTominay??? Maybe I'm forgetting some really obvious names?

 

[romufc]

This. Nobody really talked about Arsenal's academy because it was well known that all those youngsters were bought (Cesc, Diaby, Song etc) and complimented other players that were also quite young like Van Persie (signed at 21).

Wilshere was the only one from our academy. Funnily enough, it's only now that we've got a number of academy players in the team - Bukayo Saka, Eddie Nketiah, Joe Willock, Reiss Nelson with Emile Smith-Rowe knocking on the door.

I know this is a Man Utd forum, but what are the expectations? Because after the class of '92 I'm struggling to name top quality Man Utd academy graduates.

Welbeck & McTominay??? Maybe I'm forgetting some really obvious names?

The players you have names coming through, Manutd have had loads of average players coming through over the years. the likes of Gibson, Cleverly played big parts of title campaigns. Then there are players that have come through and not quite made it like Evans, Lingard etc.

Well you are forgetting Rashford, Pogba, and now we are seing Greenwood coming through too.

 

[11101]

Man City.

They've always mentioned how they've gotten the best facilities/coaches/players in their youth setup but their last youth player that made it through is Richards/Hart?

City is definitely one. We heard all about their great facilities and how they buy families off but you can count their even semi-successful recent youth players on one hand. I gave them the benefit of the doubt early on that the kids coming through were still too young, but by now you'd expect to see something. Other than Foden there's really nothing, even Denis Suarez didn't make it.

We weren't great either until recently. We've got a good bunch coming through now but Rashford saved us as we hadn't had much for a few years before that.

 

[Pow]

City is definitely one. We heard all about their great facilities and how they buy families off but you can count their even semi-successful recent youth players on one hand. I gave them the benefit of the doubt early on that the kids coming through were still too young, but by now you'd expect to see something. Other than Foden there's really nothing, even Denis Suarez didn't make it.

We weren't great either until recently. We've got a good bunch coming through now but Rashford saved us as we hadn't had much for a few years before that.

Sancho too no ?

 

[11101]

Sancho too no ?

It's a stretch to call him a City youth product. He spent most of his time at Watford, he was only at City for 2 years after they threw money at him and he never got a single first team appearance.

 

[limerickcitykid]

That's my oversight...so then explain the youth academy where Paul Pogba is from? Prior to United, he was at Le Havre and two other clubs. Having parameters on what classifies a players youth academy before 16 and before their first team senior debut is important. Sancho is as much a Watford academy product than City academy product similar to Alba because he spent 7 years at Watford before a couple at City.

He’s from all of them. If you play for an academy then you’re from that academy. It’s a fairly basic concept.

 

[TheReligion]

Manchester United, at least on this forum. Every season there's a good 5 or so players that posters suggest are going to make it in the first team and then a year or two down the line they're transfered to a championship level team for a tiny fee

What a strange post. A youth academy is not all about making players for your own team. A reflection on its quality would be what percentage make it as a career within the sport and United's percentage is very high when you look though the football league.

That said when you look at the United first team squad right from the off you have Mctominay and Rashford as starters with the likes of Greenwood and Henderson who both look like first team players in the future. Around the periphery there's also Williams and Tuanzebe who will be at least good squad options. Even Lingard has been a squad player for a while, and still is, and Pogba is classed as home grown by the rules due to him spending his development years here.

Not sure any of the other big clubs can offer this kind of ratio and when you consider talent like Garner and Hannibal just below and the possibility of another like Laird could make it the criticism seems bizarre.

 

[Ekeke]

What a strange post. A youth academy is not all about making players for your own team. A reflection on its quality would be what percentage make it as a career within the sport and United's percentage is very high when you look though the football league.

That said when you look at the United first team squad right from the off you have Mctominay and Rashford as starters with the likes of Greenwood and Henderson who both look like first team players in the future. Around the periphery there's also Williams and Tuanzebe who will be at least good squad options. Even Lingard has been a squad player for a while, and still is, and Pogba is classed as home grown by the rules due to him spending his development years here.

Not sure any of the other big clubs can offer this kind of ratio and when you consider talent like Garner and Hannibal just below and the possibility of another like Laird could make it the criticism seems bizarre.

What a strange post. I am specifically talking about people saying they think a whole cluster of players are going to make it at United. They arent talking about other teams.

 

[Steve Bruce]

The players you have names coming through, Manutd have had loads of average players coming through over the years. the likes of Gibson, Cleverly played big parts of title campaigns. Then there are players that have come through and not quite made it like Evans, Lingard etc.

Well you are forgetting Rashford, Pogba, and now we are seing Greenwood coming through too.

Evans might not be world class, but he has proven at United, West Brom, Leicester and NI that he is a very good defender. He was the first one of Jones, Smalling & Evans to go & personally I think he was the most reliable and consistant of the 3 & would have been the last of the 3 I would have let go.

 

[SoCross]

Define a good academy?

1. Is an academy good only if they produce world class players?
2. Is an academy good if they produce a large number of premier league/equivalent league players?
3. Is it the number of international caps from the academy?