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P&G Draft - QF: Physiocrat vs Onenil

With players at their career peak, who would win?


  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .

Indnyc

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Physiocrat



vs.
OneNil




Tactics Physiocrat

Overview

A modern take on the 235 with attacking centre-half. 433/451 without the ball but in possession Overath and Gullit become inside forwards and Stielike has liberty to move forward. Alaba and Lahm move into the left and right half position respectively, similar to how they played with Pep at Bayern.


Tactics

The team will employ a high press when Onenil’s defence have the ball following one our our attacks to prevent the quick long passes by Koeman and Nelinho. When the ball does reach the midfield or further forward we will drop to a normal defensive line. Similar to last time Keizer and Matthews though will stay pretty wide to be outballs on the counter. My midfield’s passing ability will be much more to the fore in this game. With more time on the ball Overath and Gullit will express themselves more fully - playing cunning through balls to RVN and the wingers as well as produce some neat link-up play with the many triangles created. The approach is normal to direct with an emphasis on stretching the play vertically and laterally.

Why I will win

· Three time European cup winning Piet Keizer, Cruyff’s most highly rated left-winger of all-time, will give Nelinho a very difficult time with his trickery and crossing and will also provide a solid goal threat (better than 1 in 3 for his career).

· Ballon d’or winning Gullit will have much more offensive influence this game and will be far too much for Vidal to track with his touch and intelligence. Gullit’s link up play with Matthews and especially his aerial ability after coming late into the box will cause significant problems for Koeman.

· My defence is far better suited to stop Onenil’s attack front three than his is to stop my front three – whilst they fit stylistically into his system their defensive ability, Maldini aside, is lower than mine. Whilst Chumpitaz had a good leap so did RVN and especially Gullit and they are significantly taller than him and probably stronger too. Koeman was also never known for his rugged aerial ability. Stielike will again patrol in front of the back four reducing the space for Socrates. McGrath and Forster have enough physicality and acumen to limit Cruyff’s influence somewhat. Further when Cruyff drifts left the highly intelligent Lahm is great asset.

· My midfield three as a unit will be a handful for Onenil with their dynamism and skill on the ball as well as Overath’s outstanding passing. Stielike’s driving runs from deep will cause a particular problem for Onenil.

Tactics Onenil


“Our foundation was technique and everything else was a matter of positioning and support. Good positional play meant that you didn’t have to run so far, so technique was ablke to come more easily to the fore.” - Johan Cruyff

“Sócrates reminded me of my hero as a boy, Faas Wilkes, a man who also played elegant and beautiful football that was above all technica.

Just like him, Sócrates could do what he wanted with the ball thanks to his enormous skill and vision. He knew where to position himself on the field of play. He was one of those players who did a little bit of everything, in the best sense. Sócrates scored a lot of goals. In that sense he reminded me of DI Stefano, who also scored a lot and was good in many other ways. ” - Johan Cruyff

“Putting on the pressure not by sprinting thirty metres, but by moving a few metres at the right moment...Everyone you give five metres of space looks like a good footballer, because they are not under any pressure...three metres away , its another story” - Cruyff

Additions

Clodoaldo
“Appearances have always been deceptive where Clodoaldo is concerned..he looked like an altar boy and played like an assassin. The twenty-year-old was the team’s energetic enforcer, its midfield fetcher and carrier, willing to run himself into the Mexican ground for the Brazilian cause. It was only in the dying minutes of the Final, as he began the unforgettable move that set up Carlos Alberto’s goal, that we glimpsed the angelic skills he had subdued for the greater good of what he still calls ‘the motherland’. Clodoaldo’s mazy dribble past four Italian defenders was an unscripted blend of football, samba and sheer humiliation. It was as if Nobby Stiles had suddenly turned himself into George Best.”

Chumpitaz

Chumpitaz replaces Gamarra as Koeman’s partner and complements him ideally here. With much greater technical skill and pace, quickness and agility. Chumpitaz was the defensive mastermind of the the Peruvian side that won the Copa America with outstanding midfield. Chumpitaz therefore fits right in with the masterminds of this side.

We play a relentless attacking game that will score goals against even the best defenses. On the other side this side is setup to naturally limit the service against Physio’s modern 235. Ribery and Conti are perfect matches to constantly harass the full backs both opening up space on offense and not leaving them time on the ball
 

harms

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Not sure if the inverted fullbacks are a good idea against onenil's team — I thought that they worked fantastically when you faced Barcelona's midfield (and needed bodies in the middle), but with Conti and Ribery stretching the pitch? Also unlucky to have Matthews (your best player alongside Gullit) directly facing Maldini.

As for onenil, I'm still not sure if I buy Cruyff/Socrates pairing (and yes, I've read all your arguments!). I think this is one of those things when you're either envision it working perfectly or not working at all.

Will wait for the discussion
 

Enigma_87

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Not sure if the inverted fullbacks are a good idea against onenil's team — I thought that they worked fantastically when you faced Barcelona's midfield (and needed bodies in the middle), but with Conti and Ribery stretching the pitch? Also unlucky to have Matthews (your best player alongside Gullit) directly facing Maldini.

As for onenil, I'm still not sure if I buy Cruyff/Socrates pairing (and yes, I've read all your arguments!). I think this is one of those things when you're either envision it working perfectly or not working at all.

Will wait for the discussion
I can see Cruyff/Socrates working personally. Agree on the fullbacks against Conti and Ribery.

Maldini is gold here against that Physio flank.

Will wait for the discussion as well, if any. (put in tumbleweed icon)
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Good luck Physio

quick comment before I head to work. This side is more well suited to defeat high pressing than my first round team with both upgrades specifically designed to counter that high press tactic. Chumpitaz is well known for being excellent on the ball and Koeman and Nelinho's passing has been established. I think we are well placed to exploit a high press consistently.

Clodoaldo's press resistance on display here:

Also Socrates can drop deep to create

Not sure if the inverted fullbacks are a good idea against onenil's team — I thought that they worked fantastically when you faced Barcelona's midfield (and needed bodies in the middle), but with Conti and Ribery stretching the pitch? Also unlucky to have Matthews (your best player alongside Gullit) directly facing Maldini.

As for onenil, I'm still not sure if I buy Cruyff/Socrates pairing (and yes, I've read all your arguments!). I think this is one of those things when you're either envision it working perfectly or not working at all.


Will wait for the discussion
That's fair. I am definitely not sold on your Lerby-Effenberg midfield either :D
 

idmanager

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I'd say Forster on Cruyff is as good as Maldini on Matthews. Not many I would trust on a man marking job.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I'd say Forster on Cruyff is as good as Maldini on Matthews. Not many I would trust on a man marking job.
For what its worth Socrates played agaisnt a Forster led West German defense twice and won both playing a key role.
 

Physiocrat

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Will wait for the discussion as well, if any. (put in tumbleweed icon)
Sorry for the delay. I had to feed the kids tea as my wife was busy. For extra draft points though tewo of my boys were watching Joga's Charlton all touch compilation against Benfica in '68.

Not sure if the inverted fullbacks are a good idea against onenil's team — I thought that they worked fantastically when you faced Barcelona's midfield (and needed bodies in the middle), but with Conti and Ribery stretching the pitch? Also unlucky to have Matthews (your best player alongside Gullit) directly facing Maldini.

Will wait for the discussion
The full-backs only invert in possession. So yes there will be some space out wide but if Conti and Ribery are being as defensively minded as last game they will be helping against Keizer and Matthews. If they are not it will require putting a decent defensive shift in otherwise it will be 6 on 6 for my attacks which won't end well for OneNil. Let's say Conti and Ribery stay high and wide while I attack they will have to get the ball outwide quickly. His two main outlets will be Nelinho and Koeman. With a high press of his defense this should mitigate the accurate long passes. Ideally OneNil could do with another expansive passer in midfield such as Overath. All I need to do is to delay the ball long enough for my defense to reorganise to mitigate this route to goal on the counter. Further, that the full-backs invert and don't bomb down the wing means I'll have more defensive solidity than say the current Real side.


Maldini is gold here against that Physio flank.
Whilst Maldini is one of the best left-backs to stop Matthews he will have to be watching him for most of the game. Maldini is unlikely to offer much going forward, similar to how Fachetti provided little going forward when he was defending against Jairzinho in 1970. This is a problem for Ribery as he cuts in most of the time and will have little support wide left. I'm confident that Lahm will be able to cope with him under these circumstances and that's not taking into account Gullit's defensive contribution.

Good luck Physio
Let the best man win

quick comment before I head to work. This side is more well suited to defeat high pressing than my first round team with both upgrades specifically designed to counter that high press tactic. Chumpitaz is well known for being excellent on the ball and Koeman and Nelinho's passing has been established. I think we are well placed to exploit a high press consistently.
I may not have been as clear as I could in the OP. I am employing a high-press just against your defence when you have the possibility of a quick counter. Otherwise it is keep a normal defensive line, get back into shape and operate a half-court press.

I'd say Forster on Cruyff is as good as Maldini on Matthews. Not many I would trust on a man marking job.
Whilst Forster isn't specifically man-marking Cruyff, ability and style wise his an excellent fit.

Onenil will probably have more of the ball than I but certainly not a Barca 70-30 split given that his players are much more direct than Barca's. There will be many opportunities to counter and with the passing ability of the midfield three, in particular Overath and Nelinho is going to have a very hard time against Piet Keizer. And when Keizer beats him RVN and Gullit arriving late will be a significant problem for Chumpitaz and Koeman in the air. Further, as alluded to above, unless Ribery and Conti drop back out of possession (or Socrates puts in a shift but he didn't even bother to do that to escape the hemlock) OneNil could be overrun in midfield especially with all the triangles created with my general shape on the ball. That midfield three with Ruud's hold up and link play could cause many issues with some slick on touch passing.
 

Physiocrat

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@oneniltothearsenal Please vote for yourself. It's easier to keep track of the score that way

Also what is your defensive approach without the ball? High, normal or low line? Keeping the shadow press then too or something else?
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Sorry for the delay. I had to feed the kids tea as my wife was busy. For extra draft points though tewo of my boys were watching Joga's Charlton all touch compilation against Benfica in '68.

The full-backs only invert in possession. So yes there will be some space out wide but if Conti and Ribery are being as defensively minded as last game they will be helping against Keizer and Matthews. If they are not it will require putting a decent defensive shift in otherwise it will be 6 on 6 for my attacks which won't end well for OneNil. Let's say Conti and Ribery stay high and wide while I attack they will have to get the ball outwide quickly. His two main outlets will be Nelinho and Koeman. With a high press of his defense this should mitigate the accurate long passes. Ideally OneNil could do with another expansive passer in midfield such as Overath. All I need to do is to delay the ball long enough for my defense to reorganise to mitigate this route to goal on the counter. Further, that the full-backs invert and don't bomb down the wing means I'll have more defensive solidity than say the current Real side.

Whilst Maldini is one of the best left-backs to stop Matthews he will have to be watching him for most of the game. Maldini is unlikely to offer much going forward, similar to how Fachetti provided little going forward when he was defending against Jairzinho in 1970. This is a problem for Ribery as he cuts in most of the time and will have little support wide left. I'm confident that Lahm will be able to cope with him under these circumstances and that's not taking into account Gullit's defensive contribution.

Let the best man win

I may not have been as clear as I could in the OP. I am employing a high-press just against your defence when you have the possibility of a quick counter. Otherwise it is keep a normal defensive line, get back into shape and operate a half-court press.


Whilst Forster isn't specifically man-marking Cruyff, ability and style wise his an excellent fit.

Onenil will probably have more of the ball than I but certainly not a Barca 70-30 split given that his players are much more direct than Barca's. There will be many opportunities to counter and with the passing ability of the midfield three, in particular Overath and Nelinho is going to have a very hard time against Piet Keizer. And when Keizer beats him RVN and Gullit arriving late will be a significant problem for Chumpitaz and Koeman in the air. Further, as alluded to above, unless Ribery and Conti drop back out of possession (or Socrates puts in a shift but he didn't even bother to do that to escape the hemlock) OneNil could be overrun in midfield especially with all the triangles created with my general shape on the ball. That midfield three with Ruud's hold up and link play could cause many issues with some slick on touch passing.
I still think that feeds into my strategy and works better for me than yourself. If you are only pressing high with your forward line there is tonnes of space for not just Clodoaldo and Vidal to exploit but also Socrates and Cruyff dropping deep.Ultimately I don't see this limiting our chance creation very much as I constructed this backline to be specifically good on the ball, press resistant with a range of passing to hit any free man on the pitch.

Ultimately there isn't an easy way to stop my attack from creating chances with Cruyff and Socrates dropping deep into space and then creating. Conti vs. Alaba is a big mismatch that is going to create a lot of chances as Alaba lacks the defensive nous to stop Conti consistently. On the flip side Conti (as well as Ribery with Lahm) are never going to allow your full backs much time on the ball as the Cruyff principle I mentioned in the OP. With the full backs trying to tuck against the wide threats of Conti and Ribery this could create a lot of space to control the tempo.

Nelinho is definitely underrated as well. He is going to be a consistent threat because he has phenomenal passing range and a superb long range shot. This can be used to unbalance the defense. If they are packing too tight against Cruyff and the Doctor then Nelinho can break the that tight defense with plays like this:

 

Gio

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As much as I value Gamarra's sheer defensive nous, him and Koeman compounded each other's weaknesses. Introducing Chumpitaz makes that defence and ramps Koeman up a couple of gears.

I can see Cruyff/Socrates working personally. Agree on the fullbacks against Conti and Ribery.

Maldini is gold here against that Physio flank.

Will wait for the discussion as well, if any. (put in tumbleweed icon)
Agree with this.
I'd say Forster on Cruyff is as good as Maldini on Matthews. Not many I would trust on a man marking job.
And this.
 

idmanager

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Tough to vote against Physio but I think one nil has the better players in key battles in general.

Matthews against Maldini and Conti against Alaba both work well for him which is what sealed my vote.
 

Enigma_87

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Tough to vote against Physio but I think one nil has the better players in key battles in general.

Matthews against Maldini and Conti against Alaba both work well for him which is what sealed my vote.
Yeah, feel the same currently, but that possession pic gives me second thought. If Physio's team manages to get the ball in the box on consistent basis that 2x Ruud pairing combo would create lots of problems with strength, heading ability and movement in the box.
 

Physiocrat

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I still think that feeds into my strategy and works better for me than yourself. If you are only pressing high with your forward line there is tonnes of space for not just Clodoaldo and Vidal to exploit but also Socrates and Cruyff dropping deep.Ultimately I don't see this limiting our chance creation very much as I constructed this backline to be specifically good on the ball, press resistant with a range of passing to hit any free man on the pitch.

Ultimately there isn't an easy way to stop my attack from creating chances with Cruyff and Socrates dropping deep into space and then creating. Conti vs. Alaba is a big mismatch that is going to create a lot of chances as Alaba lacks the defensive nous to stop Conti consistently. On the flip side Conti (as well as Ribery with Lahm) are never going to allow your full backs much time on the ball as the Cruyff principle I mentioned in the OP. With the full backs trying to tuck against the wide threats of Conti and Ribery this could create a lot of space to control the tempo.

Nelinho is definitely underrated as well. He is going to be a consistent threat because he has phenomenal passing range and a superb long range shot. This can be used to unbalance the defense. If they are packing too tight against Cruyff and the Doctor then Nelinho can break the that tight defense with plays like this:
I'm not just pressing with the forward line. Pressing only makes sense if the entire team does it. I'm just pressing in your half when you defence have it following one of my attacks to prevent long passes from Nelinho and Koeman- Chumpitaz and Maldini are hardly Titus Bramble at passing but a simple pass to midfield is hardly going to unerve me that much given the lack of an expansive passer at CM. Nelinho is good going forward not doubt but Keizer vs him is big, big mismatch.


This is an especial problem when this will lead to two other mismatches of Gullit and RVN in the air against Koeman and Chumpitaz. And since I mention Gullit I really don't see any of your side being able to contain him. I've never seen Vidal have a more than above average game and he played at his peak in a poor Serie A for by far the best side. Even if you rate him more highly than me he is vastly inferior to Gullit and would find it difficult to contain him.

Whilst it is the case that Conti will beat Alaba on occasions, he has excellent recovery pace even if Conti does get away he has the most complete defender on the pitch in McGrath to contend with. Further, with a DM in front of the back four can plug many gaps that OneNil simply cannot.

Again, can you please explain your defensive strategy without the ball?
 

diarm

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Onenil has built a beautiful side here. Tough on Physio but as good as I think his side is, Maldini, Koeman, Chumpitaz, Clodoaldo, Conti, Cruyff and Socrates is just :drool:.
 

Physiocrat

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Onenil has built a beautiful side here. Tough on Physio but as good as I think his side is, Maldini, Koeman, Chumpitaz, Clodoaldo, Conti, Cruyff and Socrates is just :drool:.
It is certainly good on the ball and easy on the eye but I have absolutely no idea what their defensive strategy is.
 

Physiocrat

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I'm off to bed now but I will leave a few comments.

1) Onenil has been very, very vague about his defensive strategy without the ball.

2) Kiezer on Nelinho is a huge mismatch especially which is compounded by more mismatches at CB with Koeman and Chumpitaz having to deal with the height and the aerial ability of Gullit and RVN. Keizer all has a good goal scoring record with a better than 1 in 3 return over his career.

3) He has no-one to contain Gullit and has essentially forgotten about Stielike's runs from deep.


4) Ribery will be very ineffective without an overlapping full-back but he has to focus 100% on Matthews.

5) All my defence is pacy and McGrath and Forster have excellent physicality and intelligence to mitigate Cruyff and Socrates especially with Stielike in front.

6) Finally, Overath can do this:

 

oneniltothearsenal

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@oneniltothearsenal Please vote for yourself. It's easier to keep track of the score that way

Also what is your defensive approach without the ball?
High, normal or low line? Keeping the shadow press then too or something else?
I don’t like seeing the votes until later in the game so I don’t vote until then.

Same as last game mostly but with Chumpitaz and Clodoaldo means we will probably have a higher line than last game to keep RvN further away from the box further reducing his influence and where the positional sense and timing of Koeman and Chumpitaz can shine. Chumpitaz is renowned for his positional sense, timing of tackles and quickness to cover the space which makes him to perfect partner for Koeman. Between my hardworking wingers stretching the fullbacks and not allowing them time on the ball, Maldini on one side and Clodoaldo and Chumpitaz covering on Nelinho’s side and pushing RvN further from the box, I think service will be much more limited and my side can create more chances. Our players were selected for their positional awareness and masterful timing.

Chumpitaz’ defense skills, timing, positional awareness, quickness and very good technique


I especially feel the high press is there to exploit for our advantage and give us many more chances than it will limit. The backline was constructed around technique, passing and positional awareness. This allows us the opportunity to both recycle the ball very efficiently when in possession and also prevent the high press from making much difference. Conti looks poised to receive many a through ball.
Additionally the through balls and dribbling of Conti, Ribery Cruyff. This can create excellent set piece sniper shots for my free kick specialists. If the defense does make it back into position then my side has some outstanding long range shooters. This is where for examples Socrates can drop and take long range shots like this to beat the defense:



As much as I value Gamarra's sheer defensive nous, him and Koeman compounded each other's weaknesses. Introducing Chumpitaz makes that defence and ramps Koeman up a couple of gears.

Agree with this.

And this.
Tough to vote against Physio but I think one nil has the better players in key battles in general.

Matthews against Maldini and Conti against Alaba both work well for him which is what sealed my vote.
Onenil has built a beautiful side here. Tough on Physio but as good as I think his side is, Maldini, Koeman, Chumpitaz, Clodoaldo, Conti, Cruyff and Socrates is just :drool:.
Cheers, I agree with these comments
 

Physiocrat

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If can beat the occasional high press the main route is likely to be your wingers. But if your wingers are tracking back it would then just be Cruyff (are your wingers always tarcking back or not?). Irrespective of how good a player is I wouldn't back him on his own against McGrath and Forster with the intelligent Lahm moving back into position. You do have some good long-range shooters but I wouldn't want to rely on that.

Clodoaldo can help Nelinho true but I'd back Overath and Keizer to regularly cause you serious problems.

Also with respect to Maldini and Matthews, the former can reduce the latter's influence but he will be beaten at least once in the game and the soft centre of your defence can be exploited in the air.

I still don't know how you are dealing with Gullit nor how Ribery can be effective without an overlapping winger nor how you'll deal with the deep runs from Stielike.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I think this is your most balanced side to date @oneniltothearsenal It will be interesting to see where you upgrade. I think it will be in two of three places

Cheers Physio that was a tough match. I havent thought through upgrades at all and I see about 5 different options at the moment too
 

idmanager

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It was only in the dying minutes of the Final, as he began the unforgettable move that set up Carlos Alberto’s goal, that we glimpsed the angelic skills he had subdued for the greater good of what he still calls ‘the motherland’. Clodoaldo’s mazy dribble past four Italian defenders was an unscripted blend of football, samba and sheer humiliation. It was as if Nobby Stiles had suddenly turned himself into George Best.”
Think the better story was his goal against Uruguay where the opposition didnt give Gerson any time on the ball with tight marking leading to very less offensive play while Brazil trailed 1-0. Carlos Alberto asked them to swap positions and it worked like a charm leading to Clodoaldo scoring the equalizer and Brazil going on to win.
 

oneniltothearsenal

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Think the better story was his goal against Uruguay where the opposition didnt give Gerson any time on the ball with tight marking leading to very less offensive play while Brazil trailed 1-0. Carlos Alberto asked them to swap positions and it worked like a charm leading to Clodoaldo scoring the equalizer and Brazil going on to win.
Thanks for spoilering my story for next round :( haha