British Asian Muslim community letting itself down yet again....
Not really sure what to say....Thank God the same isn't happening in the US, but we did have similar issues in Australia. Instead of Pakistani gangs it was Lebanese gangs.
I'm not sure who or what to blame. Easy thing is to say, 'fecking muslims raping our women' - but that's not it...is it? Most of these guys were raised in the west, and have little to do with their ancestral homes or cultures.
But the race angle of the issue can't and shouldn't be avoided either. In the latest incident, all the victims were white.
I'm not really sure what should be done, as I said, the race/culture aspect of the issue HAS to be discussed. But shrill screams result in anything but discussion, and instead of the muslim community coming out and joining everyone else in expressing their disgust and horror at the perpetrators.... They end up feeling besieged and under attack, resulting in exchanges that sound like they are making excuses/justifications/explanations. When every decent person knows, there is nothing to defend here.
This was what the Ramadhan Foundation spokesperson had to say
A local Muslim spokesman, who has previously spoken out nationally about the "grooming" of young girls by members of the Asian community, has welcomed the verdicts in the Rochdale child sex trial.
Mohammed Shafiq, Chief Executive of the Ramadhan Foundation said: “I wish to pay tribute to the bravery of the young girls that have given evidence in this trial, without their contribution justice would not have been possible. Today’s guilty verdicts are to be welcomed and I hope the message goes out that if you engage in these crimes, you will be caught and brought to justice.
These criminals have brought shame on themselves, their families and our community. We reject their actions without reservation and send our thoughts to the victims and reject any attempt by the far right to tarnish the whole Pakistani community. Their actions have no place in a decent society and today we can say justice has been done.
There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community, there is an over representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals. They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community. I urge the Police and the Councils not to be frightened to address this issue, there is a strong lesson that you cannot ignore race or be over sensitive.
I have been overwhelmed by the support the Ramadhan Foundation has been given by young people for our campaign on child grooming but concerned that community elders are once again burying their heads in the sand, this concerns us all and we must speak out. The community elders need to learn from the reaction of young people and reject any attempt to silence the reaction from our community. We have over the past twelve months seen tremendous progress, more Imams have spoken out in Friday sermons, workshops and activities for young people have happened in the community and there is a strong commitment to see this work through.
We encourage local authorities and schools to learn from Rochdale where over 9000 teenagers have attended a workshop on child grooming. The Ramadhan Foundation is ready to stand with anyone who wishes to protect these young teenagers. The Police will need to reflect on their failures in this case and we look forward to the IPCC report.
Finally the far right and fascist movements are not welcome to Rochdale, we reject their division and hatred and it has no place in a tolerant and diverse society. We will learn lessons from this case but not allow outsiders to divide us.
Things like this don't help small minded people coming to big, lasting (and sweeping) conclusions. The Muslim community, whether it's right or wrong, has to speak out against these things and do it fairly loudly to have any chance of avoiding it.
The same goes with other sweeping generalisations on the community. The larger the percentage speaking out and showing unison with the rest of the community, the better the chance of avoiding racist generalisation.
^Thing is...this isn't the 1st incident, and it's not just 'small minded' people making sweeping statements or drawing conclusions. You see a pattern, and it's hard for people to not generalize.
^Thing is...this isn't the 1st incident, and it's not just 'small minded' people making sweeping statements or drawing conclusions. You see a pattern, and it's hard for people to not generalize.
A problem is the segregation of the Muslim communities from the rest, which unfortunately I believe they don't do much to help. And when anything controversial comes up, it's almost like they retreat into their shells and it's only the negative side that screams out to everyone.
If there was more unity there might not be as many of these gangs.
A problem is the segregation of the Muslim communities from the rest, which unfortunately I believe they don't do much to help. And when anything controversial comes up, it's almost like they retreat into their shells and it's only the negative side that screams out to everyone.
If there was more unity there might not be as many of these gangs.
This segregation is unique to europe. There is no segregation in the muslim community in North America, and while I have highlighted an incident from Australia. The largest muslim community and fastest growing is Asian muslims there, and there are no muslim ghettos.
There are a couple of areas in Sydney(Lakemba) which was known as muslim areas...but elsewhere there is no 'ghetto' as such.
Not sure what the deal is...it's not about education. The muslims that run a ton of the shops in jackson heights, NYC or drive the cabs, aren't educated or especially modern in their outlook. But they have integrated just fine, and at a bare minimum aren't out running sex rings with minors.
Also the really perplexing thing in this instance is...there are huge Bangladeshi and Indian muslim communities in the UK - they also live side by side with the Pakistani community. But 90% of these individuals appear to be from only the Pakistani community.
You're right Neutral this isn't a new thing unfortunately and as you've pointed out it does always seem to involve Pakistani Muslims. It's very unfortunate that a group of people will get tarred with the same brush. It's sad, as VeevaVee said though you can only eradicate such negative influences with unity.
Its been going on for a lot longer than people think it is just that it is a sensitive issue with the accused being Pakistani Muslims. A police chief interviewd was quick to say that
these are not the only rape gangs- really? then where are the rest? wrong is wrong and we should not be afraid to speak out for fear of upsetting religous comminities.
I don't believe it is racially motivated, more racially selective.
They abused these white girls as they were the 'easiest' targets, not because they want to cause racial tension.
If these men lived in pakistan they would still be abusers, but would prey upon the lower classes / homeless / orphans / etc.
Obviously there are perverts of every racial origin in this country - white, asian, far eastern, eastern european - you name it their are rapists and paedos from every group.
Because they're in this country, they will prey upon the easiest targets. What needs addressing are the problems that lead to these young (seemingly mainly white) girls being so desperate for alcohol and drugs that they're attracted to these situations in the first place.
They are perverts and will hopefully be rightly sent down for that crime, but the racists are those who try to turn this into a racial issue, and as the poster above has said, this country is notorious at debating these issue's fairly uselessly.
The only problem is in the perception with these issues. Every british muslim is seen as part of a community and thus there actions tar those of the community they belong to, if this was 5 white blokes then the blame for the act stops at them individually.
I'm a white guy from Bradford and my own experience is that the muslim community positively self-police their own community in the same way churches used to do with christians. There's a lot of scummy people in Bradford but while the white trouble makers only have to deal with the police the young muslims get shunned and banned from visiting mosque etc.
The journalists don't help trying to turn it into a race issue as it's a more meaty angle.
This sickens me. I have daughters and it doesn't matter if they're white, brown, Muslim, etc, they're still little girls. The law needs to be stricter to keep these animals locked up and handed over to inmates that can do real damage to their own ringpieces. After all it is about deterence.
This sickens me. I have daughters and it doesn't matter if they're white, brown, Muslim, etc, they're still little girls. The law needs to be stricter to keep these animals locked up and handed over to inmates that can do real damage to their own ringpieces. After all it is about deterence.
With an attitude like that you may as well bring back capital punishment.
It's a mental illness and a fecking serious one at that in my opinion.
No idea how you go about it preventing further cases, and locking offenders up is a neccessity for the publics safety, but i'd prefer attempts at rehabilitation and understanding there serious issue's as opposed to then raping them to teach 'em a lesson
This sickens me. I have daughters and it doesn't matter if they're white, brown, Muslim, etc, they're still little girls. The law needs to be stricter to keep these animals locked up and handed over to inmates that can do real damage to their own ringpieces. After all it is about deterence.
I don't believe it is racially motivated, more racially selective.
They abused these white girls as they were the 'easiest' targets, not because they want to cause racial tension.
If these men lived in pakistan they would still be abusers, but would prey upon the lower classes / homeless / orphans / etc.
Obviously there are perverts of every racial origin in this country - white, asian, far eastern, eastern european - you name it their are rapists and paedos from every group.
Because they're in this country, they will prey upon the easiest targets. What needs addressing are the problems that lead to these young (seemingly mainly white) girls being so desperate for alcohol and drugs that they're attracted to these situations in the first place.
They are perverts and will hopefully be rightly sent down for that crime, but the racists are those who try to turn this into a racial issue, and as the poster above has said, this country is notorious at debating these issue's fairly uselessly.
This sickens me. I have daughters and it doesn't matter if they're white, brown, Muslim, etc, they're still little girls. The law needs to be stricter to keep these animals locked up and handed over to inmates that can do real damage to their own ringpieces. After all it is about deterence.
That is condoning rape in the 'right' circumstances. Rape should obviously be condemed in all circumstances so there is no room for people to apply their own subjective morality to rape in the 'right' circumstances.
This is obviously a very sensitive issue. I am hearing in debates that it is a case of the Pakistani men seeing young white girls in Western Society as promiscuous and as such fair game.
Surely Islam has some influence on the matter as it condones sex with girls from early puberty onwards and (in some interpretations at least) deems non Muslim to be impure from the outset.
That is condoning rape in the 'right' circumstances. Rape should obviously be condemed in all circumstances so there is no room for people to apply their own subjective morality to rape in the 'right' circumstances.
This is obviously a very sensitive issue. I am hearing in debates that it is a case of the Pakistani men seeing young white girls in Western Society as promiscuous and as such fair game.
Surely Islam has some influence on the matter as it condones sex with girls from early puberty onwards and (in some interpretations at least) deems non Muslim to be impure from the outset.
What do you mean Islam condones sex from early puberty years? Obviously as with all religions and cultures hundreds of years ago...early marriage and marital sex was the norm back in the day.
As we as a people have evolved, and cultural sensibilities have changed, so have most the conventions in most muslim countries.
Yeah possibly. I have met couple of Indian men on my time in Europe, who saw European women only through the prism of being sexually open to anything and repeating the mantra of less extreme version of "They want it".
That is not to generalize any community or nationality or religion. Most I met and knew were of normal nature as opposed to cretinous one.
Surely Islam has some influence on the matter as it condones sex with girls from early puberty onwards and (in some interpretations at least) deems non Muslim to be impure from the outset.
These acts are carried out by calculated, often intelligent groups of people. Not mentally unhinged weirdos. In Islam you should try to avoid physical contact with the opposite sex (after puberty) and lower your gaze. Obviously these Pakistani men have decided to forfeit this Islamic edict, therefore any link to the religion and its teachings at all during these acts.
As someone stated above, I'm not against bringing back capital punishment in this country.
What do you mean Islam condones sex from early puberty years? Obviously as with all religions and cultures hundreds of years ago...early marriage and marital sex was the norm back in the day.
As we as a people have evolved, and cultural sensibilities have changed, so have most the conventions in most muslim countries.
As far as I understand the Koran states the girls are ready for sexual activity from the first menstruation onwards. Are you saying that the Koran could be in no way interpreted to justify, in part, sexual activity with underaged girls?
It's not misleading - I mentioned them being Pakistani specifically, because if you read the spoilered response from the spokesperson for the Ramadhan Foundation - this issue is a real problem in one particular community.
There is no point in avoiding it, and the race of them victims further highlights this.
It's not misleading - I mentioned them being Pakistani specifically, because if you read the spoilered response from the spokesperson for the Ramadhan Foundation - this issue is a real problem in one particular community.
There is no point in avoiding it, and the race of them victims further highlights this.
There is a significant problem for the British Pakistani community, there is an over representation amongst recent convictions in the crime of on street grooming, there should be no silence in addressing the issue of race as this is central to the actions of these criminals.
Well, that's the question, isn't it? Is there a cultural angle to all of this.
I think the word 'racial' is misleading, because it implies that the issue isn't one of culture or religion. I haven't really been following the 'rape gang' stories of the past couple of years in much detail, but I am surprised by the adamance of some people that culture or religion cannot possible have anything to do with it, and the flawed logic used to come to this conclusion.
To suggest that culture might be an issue here isn't to generalise a whole group of people, which is a a bizarre and rather stupid accusation that keeps cropping up in the discussions on this topic. Some people are so defensive on these issues (and this is somewhat understandable) that they can't think rationally about it.
Let's take a look at something the judge said in his closing remarks:
'One of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion.'
If we agree with that statement, does it not suggest that there may be a cultural problem that could do with being addressed?
With an attitude like that you may as well bring back capital punishment.
It's a mental illness and a fecking serious one at that in my opinion.
No idea how you go about it preventing further cases, and locking offenders up is a neccessity for the publics safety, but i'd prefer attempts at rehabilitation and understanding there serious issue's as opposed to then raping them to teach 'em a lesson
I genuinely didn't think it was possible for me to despise Nick Griffin any more than I already did - and then I had the unfortunate misfortune of stumbling over his Twitter timeline today, and what he's been saying (and doing - he's protesting outside court today) over this case.
Essentially, he's using the fact that some children have had their lives ruined to (try and) score political points, and whip up anti-Muslim sentiment. I won't republish the poison he's coming out with, but let it be said he's actually excelled himself today on the cnut-om-meter.
I honestly don't know how his comments today could not be considered as inciting hatred ... of the 10,000 or so morons that follow him, I'm sure a lot of them will agree with his despicable views and continue to spread them to equally under-educated people and the cycle goes on.
Of course what this gang did was despicable, but if you were to believe Griffin then if there were no Muslims in this country there'd be no rape. And he's saying this on a public forum. Truly unbelievable.
I genuinely didn't think it was possible for me to despise Nick Griffin any more than I already did - and then I had the unfortunate misfortune of stumbling over his Twitter timeline today, and what he's been saying (and doing - he's protesting outside court today) over this case.
Essentially, he's using the fact that some children have had their lives ruined to (try and) score political points, and whip up anti-Muslim sentiment. I won't republish the poison he's coming out with, but let it be said he's actually excelled himself today on the cnut-om-meter.
I honestly don't know how his comments today could not be considered as inciting hatred ... of the 10,000 or so morons that follow him, I'm sure a lot of them will agree with his despicable views and continue to spread them to equally under-educated people and the cycle goes on.
Of course what this gang did was despicable, but if you were to believe Griffin then if there were no Muslims in this country there'd be no rape. And he's saying this on a public forum. Truly unbelievable.
It should never matter. Every colour, creed and religion commit crime. But like you say, he'll twist the facts (or make them up) to suit his agenda.
He's a clever man, but his supporters are not - and what he says, they believe. It's ridiculous. And if he wasn't so dangerous, you'd almost pity him.
He also nearly ruined the whole trial by tweeting the verdicts before the jury had even read them out. Yet, still he decides to go and protest outside court today. The man has no shame.
The problem a lot of us white (and black, and oriental, etc) boys have when it comes to discussing problems within the less integrated muslim communities, is that we're perpetually stuck between conservatively jumping to conclusions and liberally trying to dismiss it altogether. If we shouldn't shirk away from the racial aspects of this phenomena, then how should we approach it?
Because we can hypothesise what possible reasons and causes there are for such an over-representation, but they're unlikely to be as accurate, or as well received as if they're proposed from within..
Basically, if we're going to try and have a good conversation without ignoring the racial aspects, then could someone with an authority on the community propose some reasons/causes/solutions, and then we'll sort of pivot around that. Otherwise it's always going to be a case of agendas leading the discussion IMO.
This is all over the Guardian today as well, one of the articles was from the ex-chief of Barnardo's who has said it's predominantly Muslim gangs. So I guess it's not just Griffin, though it did stand out as an odd claim as the article also highlighted that the majority of sex offenders in prisons are white. Though whether that is because the Uk is largely made up of a white population or not I don't recall (ie the ethnic percentage figures would probably be more telling). I can't link the articles as my work have inexplicably blocked the Guardian.
This is all over the Guardian today as well, one of the articles was from the ex-chief of Barnardo's who has said it's predominantly Muslim gangs. So I guess it's not just Griffin, though it did stand out as an odd claim as the article also highlighted that the majority of sex offenders in prisons are white. Though whether that is because the Uk is largely made up of a white population or not I don't recall (ie the ethnic percentage figures would probably be more telling). I can't link the articles as my work have inexplicably blocked the Guardian.
Got to say I've found this story quite interesting. I'm absolutely not one of the PC brigade who gets offended by the word 'racial', and I'd hate to become one of those people scared of saying anything that could offend, but I did find The Sun's headline including 'Asian' a little strange. The Daily Mail, not so, but I wasn't exactly sure why they needed to emphasise their ethnicity given their mugshots.
Now the point is being made that their victims were all white, but it is in our culture from an early age to be out drinking. And by our I mean white British girls. I'm not saying they bring it on themselves, as one feckwit on the news just inferred, but their method of attack seemed to be based around preying on the 'availability' of these girls as much as anything else.
The last available census has Pakistani as 1.6% of the UK population, but those identifying themselves as "Asian" was around 5% UK wide and 6.5% in Greater Manchester (as of the last published census, but that was 10 years ago, last years one would - I imagine - see an increase when it's published)
If GM police said 5% of it's sex offenders where "Asian males" then assuming the number of sex offenders is largely male anyway, 5% wouldn't seem a disproportionate amount. Unless they were mostly Pakistani that is.
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