Yeah I meant the initial write-up. Videos and other info during the thread are usually posted as part of discussion, so absolutely no problem with that.
Pat vs Downcast/MJJ/Arbitrium - Tactical Draft
- Thread starter Šjor Bepo
- Start date
Agreed.
Ideally, what you want is 100% relevant (to the particular points discussed) footage posted.
E.g. Someone asks «what was X like?», «did he cut in frequently?», «would he struggle in a high pace environment?», etc. - and then the manager posts a vid in (direct) response.
There's too much general material posted, managers get carried away. If you come across a great compilation, post it in the main thread (and post a link in the match thread, if you feel like it).
I've deleted all my posts including videos but can't update the OP.
Up to @Šjor Bepo to make the necessary.
Now, if you want me to explain the analogy with the Pyramid (no pure wingers) and my personal understanding I'd say:
1. Raul is extremely versatile (SS, #10 or any role)
2. What is his strength #1? His ability to score and break any defensive line in any circumstances.
3. A 4-4-2 means Raul would spend a part of his time to make the bridge the central midfielders and the CF: he would do it with success but I would have wanted him to spend 100% of his time trying to combine with the CF and create very near of the penalty area
4. An example would be a player like Del Piero/Trezeguet shone with a 3-5-2 system but above all with a strong central support (2 CM+ Zidane)
5. In concrete terms, I would have probably tried a tactical system (be it 4-3-3 or 3-5-2) with a front 3:
----------------- Trezeguet/Crespo
--------------Raul
-------------- Deco/Hassler
Now, in terms of style of play, Raul is a player with superior technical skills. If you make a 4-4-2 with Zidane on the left and when we know that Raul tends to be attracted by the left side, you understand why Raul was also successful in a 4-4-2 system with Zidane on the left. Here Hassler is on the right and Raul who likes to combine in tight spaces would have to do so with Barnes/Giles.
Could it work? Yes
Is it the best environment to get the most out of Raul? I don't think so but it's just my opinion.
Up to @Šjor Bepo to make the necessary.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm not interested in denigrating team Pat.this has to be the most random writeup tidbit in the history of drafting.
Now, if you want me to explain the analogy with the Pyramid (no pure wingers) and my personal understanding I'd say:
1. Raul is extremely versatile (SS, #10 or any role)
2. What is his strength #1? His ability to score and break any defensive line in any circumstances.
3. A 4-4-2 means Raul would spend a part of his time to make the bridge the central midfielders and the CF: he would do it with success but I would have wanted him to spend 100% of his time trying to combine with the CF and create very near of the penalty area
4. An example would be a player like Del Piero/Trezeguet shone with a 3-5-2 system but above all with a strong central support (2 CM+ Zidane)
5. In concrete terms, I would have probably tried a tactical system (be it 4-3-3 or 3-5-2) with a front 3:
----------------- Trezeguet/Crespo
--------------Raul
-------------- Deco/Hassler
Now, in terms of style of play, Raul is a player with superior technical skills. If you make a 4-4-2 with Zidane on the left and when we know that Raul tends to be attracted by the left side, you understand why Raul was also successful in a 4-4-2 system with Zidane on the left. Here Hassler is on the right and Raul who likes to combine in tight spaces would have to do so with Barnes/Giles.
Could it work? Yes
Is it the best environment to get the most out of Raul? I don't think so but it's just my opinion.
Last edited:
I rate Barnes. We didn't get much English football in Uruguay but he scored against us in a friendly we won 2-1 at Wembley before the 1990 WC. It was the sort of performance that made me sit up, take notice and lap up any opportunities I had to watch him thereafter.
The reason I suggested a 3-5-2 was that not having a wide forward/winger would allow Raúl to roam into that outside left channel where he was superb in his early years. No slight on Barnes, very much the opposite.
Good stuff on Giles, I do automatically associate him with dirty Leeds so no doubt don't give him the credit he deserves.
I understood the pyramid thing, I was talking about the psychodelic analogies and the planet with revolving satellites in particular.
Hard to separate the teams, I like them both. The two of them rarely get a proper run so great idea for a draft. Would love to see these sides face of in reality, United bias sort of makes you want to think that Cantona would outperform Raul. Not going to vote though.
Penalties, @Pat_Mustard please send yours, sunshine already sent theirs.
Didn't want to post until poll finished but I never 'got' Barnes the way some did (maybe a United/Liverpool bias from me?).
Clearly very good at club level (though surrounded by some great players?) but never saw him do it on the big stage, though tbf the lack of European football obviously took away an opportunity? I'm sure I read once that he never scored for England at a tournament so interesting you mention a friendly goal.... his goal v Brazil (friendly) tends to he shown whenever the media talk about him as some sort of English/Brazilian hybrid.
Like I say, very good at club level but I'll remember him for one thing..... in the last minute of Liverpool Arsenal 89 (the title decider), he had the ball down the right wing and instead of going to the corner flag, he tried to go for goal, lost the ball and 20 second later, Thomas scores and yours truly wins his £10 7-1 bet on Arsenal
.Good times.
I think Barnes suffered somewhat from not being an ideal fit for the system(s) normally favoured by England managers.
He was comparable to someone like Figo, I'd say, in terms of being extremely influential/dominant from a wide position, whereas England (still) wanted more of a line hugger (and less of a truly dominant presence).
Comparable to Scholes too - in the sense that he was underwhelming, overall, for the NT, but mostly because the system clearly didn't suit him all that well.
He was the best, most important player for a Liverpool side that were - clearly - among the best in Europe (but never got to go up against the likes of PSV and Milan for obvious reasons).
He was comparable to someone like Figo, I'd say, in terms of being extremely influential/dominant from a wide position, whereas England (still) wanted more of a line hugger (and less of a truly dominant presence).
Comparable to Scholes too - in the sense that he was underwhelming, overall, for the NT, but mostly because the system clearly didn't suit him all that well.
He was the best, most important player for a Liverpool side that were - clearly - among the best in Europe (but never got to go up against the likes of PSV and Milan for obvious reasons).
Good analysis, a wideman who had traditional winger/modern day wingforward qualities but also had the brain of a playmaker and very astute decision making on the ball, with fearsome shot and elite crossing.
Very rare type of wingers to have in a side, and tbh I think many England players from the 80's were basically playing for the wrong country and therefore no one got the best out of them tactically.
Barnes would be an international legend had he played for any other major nation.
Raul as the team captain goes first, panenka down the middle while fan favorite Neville Southall goes to the left.....1:0 for Pat!
downcast and the rest of the sun gang were to busy with their tactics for penalties that they forgot to give the list of shooters, Butragueno decided to go first....shooting down the middle while Pfaff goes to the left, replica of the first penalty of the shoutout - 1:1
Next up is John Barnes, full power down the middle while Southall goes to the left again...2:1 Pat
Good post.
It looks like it started snowing so all the players are going back to the dressing rooms, game will be continued in 30-60 minutes depending on weather.
and we are back, Michel shoots right.....
...Pfaff goes left, 2:2
There goes Giles for team Pat, shoots down the left...
...and sends Southall to the wrong side, 3:2 Pat. Poor old Neville cant believe he conceded 3 in a row, first time in his career....
Love the Hassler-Barnes duo.
Hassler in particular is a great fit for the wide playmaker role. Lovely little player who was excellent on the flanks.
Hassler in particular is a great fit for the wide playmaker role. Lovely little player who was excellent on the flanks.
from one angry man to another, there goes Bremner. Looks pissed for some reason, runs up and.....
feck me, another panenka but this time to the left side while Pfaff went to the right....you thought he cant top that but to celebrate he dived into the biggest puddle of mud and snow you could find on the pitch, what a man. 3:3
Gemmell shoots to the left....
Southall goes to the right, he is almost in tears...on the other hand Gemmell so happy he decided to left the pitch and celebrate his goal with his family. 4:3 Pat
And here it is, captain Cantona takes the ball and shoots down the middle....
sends gk to the wrong side, 4:4
Koeman doesnt like fancy shenanigans, full power bottom right....
Southall is so depressed that he didnt even bother to make the save, just stayed in the middle. 5:4 Pat
Stuart Pearce takes the ball , arbitrium going ballistic on the sidelines...Psycho shoots to the left.....
Pfaff just like Southall decided to stay in the middle, 5:5. Refs are bored with this crap so the match will be decided with flip of the coin.
Downcast picks heads....
Congrats pat!
Hard luck @Downcast . I'm sure we're both glad this fecking game is over.
Cheers lads. Anto, the end of England vs Argentina 1986 when Barnes comes on around the 75 minute mark is worth a watch. Brilliant cameo. They only managed to get him on the ball 3 or 4 times, and he came up with a brilliant assist, set up anoher great chance on a platter, and generally looked freaky dangerous every time he touched the ball. Here's the assist:
I love Hassler Joga. There's matches where he looks almost like a pure winger, then you see him elsewhere playing infield and spraying some incredible passes around.
I've become almost evangelical about him, weirdly, but I agree that his inconsistency at international level, and the unfortunate fact that he never got the opportunity to play in Europe at his peak, obviously hurt his overall standing. I agree with @Chesterlestreet and @Raees that he was particularly well-rounded, with his late career reinvention as a central midfielder emphasising the fact, and in spurts at least he showed what he could do at the highest level even in a sub-par set up.Didn't want to post until poll finished but I never 'got' Barnes the way some did (maybe a United/Liverpool bias from me?).
Clearly very good at club level (though surrounded by some great players?) but never saw him do it on the big stage, though tbf the lack of European football obviously took away an opportunity? I'm sure I read once that he never scored for England at a tournament so interesting you mention a friendly goal.... his goal v Brazil (friendly) tends to he shown whenever the media talk about him as some sort of English/Brazilian hybrid.
Like I say, very good at club level but I'll remember him for one thing..... in the last minute of Liverpool Arsenal 89 (the title decider), he had the ball down the right wing and instead of going to the corner flag, he tried to go for goal, lost the ball and 20 second later, Thomas scores and yours truly wins his £10 7-1 bet on Arsenal
Good times.
Didn't want to post until poll finished but I never 'got' Barnes the way some did (maybe a United/Liverpool bias from me?).
Clearly very good at club level (though surrounded by some great players?) but never saw him do it on the big stage, though tbf the lack of European football obviously took away an opportunity? I'm sure I read once that he never scored for England at a tournament so interesting you mention a friendly goal.... his goal v Brazil (friendly) tends to he shown whenever the media talk about him as some sort of English/Brazilian hybrid.
Like I say, very good at club level but I'll remember him for one thing..... in the last minute of Liverpool Arsenal 89 (the title decider), he had the ball down the right wing and instead of going to the corner flag, he tried to go for goal, lost the ball and 20 second later, Thomas scores and yours truly wins his £10 7-1 bet on Arsenal
Good times.
That's exactly why I initially found him odd next to Raúl, so much more than a winger, he was quite clearly the most complete forward England had and I'm not sure they've had any better since.
Indeed, one game too many
Always found Barnes surprisingly likable - considering that I actively dislike most of the Liverpool players (bar Alonso, Litmanen, Barnes and maybe a few others, Busby aside). Fantastic player