Pau Torres

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If he's better than Lindelof? get him..
 

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From the stats Pau looks like a proactive defender. The thing that intrigued me is the take-ons completed, if he can beat the press then it will help our attack massively.
On the ball he is proactive, he's similar to Maguire in term of wanting to receive the ball, not afraid to hold the ball & likes to play progressive ball. He's also press resistance from what I watched last season.

But when defending he is not proactive. I watched him before, defensively, he is bit of passive one. So here new stats that I added how many defensive he contested/attempted. Apart from his ball recoveries, he actually made less tackle & aerial duel than Lindelof. The number of his ground duel attempted is similar to Lindelof. But the success rate is pretty high when he gets involved.

 

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What’s the difference between a tackle and a ground duel for the purpose of this analysis
 

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What’s the difference between a tackle and a ground duel for the purpose of this analysis
Well, there are lot of purpose but I only used them in the previous post only to prove a point that Torres is not proactive defender.

Would be good to also see how he compares against Kounde
Ball playing:
Stats show that Kounde is a very progressive ball playing as he made the highest amount of forward passes, high amount of takes on, and chances created. And still maintain 89.9% passing accuracy overall.
Although, in term of long passes attempted and accuracy, his numbers are lower than Torres & Maguire. It looks like playing long pass is not his biggest strength.
However, the stats can't tell whether he is press resistance or no.

Defensively,
You can see he is more towards aggressive defender than passive in Sevilla 20/21. He made the most duel contested, aerial duel contested and ground duel contested with more than 60% of successful rate. This shows he is confident playing with physical strength and not a bad one winning them.
He also made the most/equal to Maguire in tackle but better tackler than Maguire as Kounde's tackle conceded less fouls.
Good in intercepting the ball (better than Lindelof & Torres) and recovering the ball.

 

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He is a good defender but I got a feeling he want suite us that well, or most premier league teams. Kind of like Lindeföf I believe they both suites the Spanish, Portuguese league better.
He has similarity with Lindelof. I don't see him improving us in defensive aspect but I see him improving us in our build up play from the back.

One, he's a left footed. We don't have a left footed centre back. If you want to play from the back, it's important to have one, thus why LVG was so obsessed with left footed centre back. Having one will allow an improvement, more fluid, quicker and able to find the right man with better accuracy as if you are on the wrong side, the angle is against you and you are forced to pass out, in line, with their weaker foot.

Two, he's better on the ball than Lindelof anyway overall.
 

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Pau Torres maybe just a better version of Lindelof but when you consider we might be going for Declan Rice as our CDM/False 3rd CB type player then I can see why we may be going for a better version Lindelof rather than a better version of Smalling or Bailly.
 

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He has similarity with Lindelof. I don't see him improving us in defensive aspect but I see him improving us in our build up play from the back.

One, he's a left footed. We don't have a left footed centre back. If you want to play from the back, it's important to have one, thus why LVG was so obsessed with left footed centre back. Having one will allow an improvement, more fluid, quicker and able to find the right man with better accuracy as if you are on the wrong side, the angle is against you and you are forced to pass out, in line, with their weaker foot.

Two, he's better on the ball than Lindelof anyway overall.
The left foot could be a very good thing, you are right about that!
He could turn out to be better, its always a gamble. And depending how the in my opinion CM upgrade gets done or no, Torres could be even more important in the build up play. For me its a CDM type of player we need, and a fast CB that allow us play a bit higher in the press. Torres doesn't suites my wish, but he is probably a Ole kind of player. I think Ole wants to keep on playing with two B2B players like we do now and then Torres could fit better.... at least in my head :0)
 

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Well, there are lot of purpose but I only used them in the previous post only to prove a point that Torres is not proactive defender.



Ball playing:
Stats show that Kounde is a very progressive ball playing as he made the highest amount of forward passes, high amount of takes on, and chances created. And still maintain 89.9% passing accuracy overall.
Although, in term of long passes attempted and accuracy, his numbers are lower than Torres & Maguire. It looks like playing long pass is not his biggest strength.
However, the stats can't tell whether he is press resistance or no.

Defensively,
You can see he is more towards aggressive defender than passive in Sevilla 20/21. He made the most duel contested, aerial duel contested and ground duel contested with more than 60% of successful rate. This shows he is confident playing with physical strength and not a bad one winning them.
He also made the most/equal to Maguire in tackle but better tackler than Maguire as Kounde's tackle conceded less fouls.
Good in intercepting the ball (better than Lindelof & Torres) and recovering the ball.

Thank you. Looks like Kounde has significant day light in terms of defensive output over Torres and Lindelof. His heading stats are not worse off vs other two as well inspite of being the shortest.
 

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What’s the difference between a tackle and a ground duel for the purpose of this analysis
Yeah I'm not sure about this either.

Unless duel suggests both attacking and defensive plays? So tackle success is just tackling, but ground duel covers both tackling and dribble/take on success?
 

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Yeah I'm not sure about this either.

Unless duel suggests both attacking and defensive plays? So tackle success is just tackling, but ground duel covers both tackling and dribble/take on success?
@Tallis

I'm not too sure but I believe ground duel is more towards 50:50 challenge on the ground means when the opposition players didn't have the ball or weren't in fully control of the ball (almost similar to interception but more physical contest, while interception has less physical contest). I think there are also more aspect that added into it like may be one on one situation on the ground if you are being dribble past or conceded fouls then it could be considered as unsuccessful ground duel but if you win it by physical not by tackle then it's considered as successful ground duel.

While tackle is when the opposition has the ball and you made the tackle with your feet not with your shoulder to take it away from the player.
 
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You don't plat with 2 Maguires. We need a decent left footer. He looks like a suitable candidate at a price of about £50m , not really going to getb one cheaper. Then we need a CM all rounder that is better than Fred.
 

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You don't plat with 2 Maguires. We need a decent left footer. He looks like a suitable candidate at a price of about £50m , not really going to getb one cheaper. Then we need a CM all rounder that is better than Fred.
Yeah but you spend a ton on a player who is essentially what you’ve already got in Lindelof?
 

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Yeah but you spend a ton on a player who is essentially what you’ve already got in Lindelof?
Except he's a left footed Lindelof with better ball playing ability. May be that's what Ole wants in his centre back pair, his first priority that he look at is they need to be very good in their ball playing and build up play.
 

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Except he's a left footed Lindelof with better ball playing ability. May be that's what Ole wants in his centre back pair, his first priority that he look at is they need to be very good in their ball playing and build up play.
I don’t disagree with Ole but I think he’s wrong if that’s the case. Might as well keep Lindelof (eugh) if that’s the plan, you’re not getting 50m worth of better passing
 

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Except he's a left footed Lindelof with better ball playing ability. May be that's what Ole wants in his centre back.
I think that is an important point. Pau Torres is significantly better than Lindelof on the ball.

In my opinion he also looks more «agile» than both Lindelof and Maguire. Can’t back that up though.

We also need a CB who allows us to rest Maguire and Lindelof more.
 

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I don’t disagree with Ole but I think he’s wrong if that’s the case. Might as well keep Lindelof (eugh) if that’s the plan, you’re not getting 50m worth of better passing
Defensively, he's likely offering the same as Lindelof but what he will improve is our build up play from the back. Better build up play is not just about ''better passing''. You have to consider other aspects such as being left footed, press resistance and progressive ball/movement.

If you want to play from the back, it's important to have a left footed, thus why LVG was so obsessed with left footed centre back. Having one will allow an improvement, more fluid, quicker and able to find the right man with better accuracy as if you are on the wrong side, the angle is against you and you are forced to pass out, in line, with their weaker foot.

Not just his long pass ability is better (stats below) but he's also better in his press resistance than Lindelof (from what I watched). Not only that, his take-on completed is much higher than Lindelof (0.8 vs 0.1) and also Maguire (0.3), this reflects that he's making more progressive ball/movement.

Defensively, he's pretty much Lindelof but what interesting is Torres has much higher ball recoveries and ground duel successful rate. So there is still bit of improvement in defending but I wouldn't be 100% confident to call it big improvement for this defensive aspect since it is different league.

 

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Are deep lying playmakers important as they used to be when nearly every team plays with ball playing CB'S?

Having 2 ball playing CB'S who are able to distribute the attack freely from deep being covered by a more ball winning midfielder seems like the tactic.

Torres - Rice - Maguire
 

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Yeah I'm not sure about this either.

Unless duel suggests both attacking and defensive plays? So tackle success is just tackling, but ground duel covers both tackling and dribble/take on success?
Just like aerial duels, duels includes both offensive and defensive and is not always so useful as a defensive stat as some defenders like Maguire are basically involved in every offensive corner.

I think that is an important point. Pau Torres is significantly better than Lindelof on the ball.

In my opinion he also looks more «agile» than both Lindelof and Maguire. Can’t back that up though.

We also need a CB who allows us to rest Maguire and Lindelof more.
I’m not so sure he’s significantly better on the ball. What do you base that on? It is hard to compare players from two different leagues especially since many players can’t cope with the intense press in the PL. What I’ve seen seen he looks decent but for that kind of money?! With the risk he won’t make it in the PL. I’d rather invest that kind of money somewhere else on the pitch.
 

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Just like aerial duels, duels includes both offensive and defensive and is not always so useful as a defensive stat as some defenders like Maguire are basically involved in every offensive corner.


I’m not so sure he’s significantly better on the ball. What do you base that on? It is hard to compare players from two different leagues especially since many players can’t cope with the intense press in the PL. What I’ve seen seen he looks decent but for that kind of money?! With the risk he won’t make it in the PL. I’d rather invest that kind of money somewhere else on the pitch.
Have you watch him play full 90 minutes before?
 

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Europa League, a few times, in Spanish league not so much and he has not been in my focus. What were you thinking about?
First time I watched him was vs Real Madrid last season, 2nd time can’t remember but it was last season. And the last one was vs Sevilla this season. I must say he is much better on the ball than Lindelof, so I disagree with you.

His press resistance is very good and better than Lindelof. No stats can prove press resistance so I‘m only saying this based on what I watched.

He loves to make long passes, forward passes, that’s his instinct. And not afraid to take on people to move the ball forward. This shows his ability of progressive ball. And the stats can back it up. Making much more long passes attempted with much better accuracy than Lindelof and also completed more takes on than Lindelof.
 

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First time I watched him was vs Real Madrid last season, 2nd time can’t remember but it was last season. And the last one was vs Sevilla this season. I must say he is much better on the ball than Lindelof, so I disagree with you.

His press resistance is very good and better than Lindelof. No stats can prove press resistance so I‘m only saying this based on what I watched.

He loves to make long passes, forward passes, that’s his instinct. And not afraid to take on people to move the ball forward. This shows his ability of progressive ball. And the stats can back it up. Making much more long passes attempted with much better accuracy than Lindelof and also completed more takes on than Lindelof.
He’s been good with the ball when I’ve seen him but I can’t say if he’s better or worse because the leagues are so different. Accuracy of long balls stats don’t say too much. Just like short passes it depends on what type of long balls. Simpler and relatively safe ones to the sideline like Maguire often hits or more difficult in to a running forward in the centre like Lindelof. Haven’t seen Torres enough to say what kind of long balls he hits.
 

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He’s been good with the ball when I’ve seen him but I can’t say if he’s better or worse because the leagues are so different. Accuracy of long balls stats don’t say too much. Just like short passes it depends on what type of long balls. Simpler and relatively safe ones to the sideline like Maguire often hits or more difficult in to a running forward in the centre like Lindelof. Haven’t seen Torres enough to say what kind of long balls he hits.
I can understand if it’s defensively or press resistance or takes on. But how is the league difference affects Torres to make much higher long passes attempted than Lindelof? It’s impossible to make claim of watching Torres before but you don’t know/haven’t seen enough long balls he hits when per 90 minutes he made 8 long ball attempted.
 

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I really feel like Kounde would be a better fit for us compared to Torres. Kounde looks more press resistant, quicker and stronger on the ball. I'm not sure that can be said about Pau Torres. It'd be a shame we ended up with Torres and Kounde ended up at Chelsea.
 

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I’m not so sure he’s significantly better on the ball. What do you base that on?
Watching them play.

He is obviously better with the ball. Better and progressive in the buildup. Lindelof is solid. Torres is very, very good.
 

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I can understand if it’s defensively or press resistance or takes on. But how is the league difference affects Torres to make much higher long passes attempted than Lindelof? It’s impossible to make claim of watching Torres before but you don’t know/haven’t seen enough long balls he hits when per 90 minutes he made 8 long ball attempted.
I would say the press on the CBs is higher in the PL, and more difficult to hit meaningful long balls. Then of course the team strategy.
Look at Dias who has gone from 9.4 long balls per game at Benfica to 5.8 at City. He also doesn't create any chances at City, 2 overall this season, compared to 16 at Benfica. Different leagues and different tactics.

And again, what type of long balls does the play hit? The most difficult ones are those to the forward in the centre. Those will often fail but when successful there is a goal opportunity.

All together, it is difficult to say anything about it more than he is good on the ball.

Watching them play.

He is obviously better with the ball. Better and progressive in the buildup. Lindelof is solid. Torres is very, very good.
I have mostly seen him the EL and he's been good, just not sure he's an upgrade and 65 mill is too much for someone at the same level imo.
 

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I would say the press on the CBs is higher in the PL, and more difficult to hit meaningful long balls. Then of course the team strategy.
Look at Dias who has gone from 9.4 long balls per game at Benfica to 5.8 at City. He also doesn't create any chances at City, 2 overall this season, compared to 16 at Benfica. Different leagues and different tactics.

And again, what type of long balls does the play hit? The most difficult ones are those to the forward in the centre. Those will often fail but when successful there is a goal opportunity.

All together, it is difficult to say anything about it more than he is good on the ball.
Are you forgetting that Maguire is playing for Man United? If it's based on team strategy and PL difficulty so why Maguire has much much higher number than Lindelof?

On contrary, Dias & Stones have about the same ball distribution number to each other which makes sense because those two play in the same team in possession based team. In the same logic, Lindelof's ball distribution or passing should be about the same number as Maguire because he is playing in the same team's strategy as Maguire, but he is not.

Well, you tell me since you made a claim that you watched him play, why are you unsure about what type of long balls Torres hits if you watch him play?



I have mostly seen him the EL and he's been good, just not sure he's an upgrade and 65 mill is too much for someone at the same level imo.
He's only 43m pounds. And will go up to 56m pounds if we buy him about 2 weeks before the window closed.
 
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Are you forgetting that Maguire is playing for Man United? If it's based on team strategy and PL difficulty so why Maguire has much much higher number than Lindelof?

On contrary, Dias & Stones have about the same number which makes sense because those two play in the same team in possession based team. In the same logic, Lindelof should be contributing about the same as Maguire because he is playing in the same team's strategy as Maguire but he is not.

Well, you tell me since you made a claim that you watched him play, why are you unsure about what type of long balls Torres hits if you watch him play?





He's only 43m pounds. And will go up to 56m pounds if we buy him about 2 weeks before the window closed.
Maguire; Most of his long balls goes to Shaw or a LW. Safe passes that don't create an instant chance, but very good weapon as variation, to play over their midfield etc.
Lindelof; many of his long balls goes to an attacking player running towards goal. Much lower chance that they are successful but when are they create a goal scoring opportunity. We have three goals so far this season from those passes and several chances. To my best knowledge we have zero goals from Maguire's long balls, could be wrong however. Maguire's long balls are in general more safe and we will keep possession, while Lindelof's balls aim to score an immediate goal scoring opportunity.

I clearly stated that I haven't watched him enough to know what type of balls he hits, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But there seem to be an surprisingly large amount of people here who has followed his entire career since 12 years old so maybe they can fill in. Maybe you have watched him play enough times to tell?

edit: another thing, do we know that Ole has the intention to increase the amount of long balls from the back?
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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Maguire; Most of his long balls goes to Shaw or a LW. Safe passes that don't create an instant chance, but very good weapon as variation, to play over their midfield etc. In similar position Lindelof; many of his long balls goes to an attacking player running towards goal. Much lower chance that they are successful but when are they create a goal scoring opportunity. We have three goals so far this season from those passes and several chances. To my best knowledge we have zero goals from Maguire's long balls, could be wrong however. Maguire's long balls are in general more safe and we will keep possession, while Lindelof's balls aim to score an immediate goal scoring opportunity.
Many? All I can remember is his two long passes to Rashford vs Sheffield and Granada. That's not many, he had to do more, which is why Rashford frustrated with the lack of long ball from Lindelof.

That's probably why there was lot of talk that Ole is also looking for left footed centre back so Maguire who is not afraid to make progressive pass can move as RCB to play more those type of long ball which something Lindelof tends to be afraid of.

Right now, Maguire is playing on the left which hard for Maguire to do it since the angle is against him as he's not a left footed. This fact and stats combined tell you that Lindelof is just more safe and will keep possession more than Maguire despite of the disadvantage Maguire has, playing on the left.

I clearly stated that I haven't watched him enough to know what type of balls he hits, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. But there seem to be an surprisingly large amount of people here who has followed his entire career since 12 years old so maybe they can fill in. Maybe you have watched play enough times to tell?
Yeah, that's probably why you are not sure if he's significantly better. At least someone who have watched him enough or pay attention on him most of the time in the game tell you the opposite.
 

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Id be happy with any senior CB in this window, if its Pau, Kounde, Varane or someone else. could easily see them save money on someone like Botman
 

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Id be happy with any senior CB in this window, if its Pau, Kounde, Varane or someone else. could easily see them save money on someone like Botman
In form, fit Bailly cannot displace Lindelof, what's the point signing any senior CB if he's not a significant upgrade on Lindelof?
 

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But there seem to be an surprisingly large amount of people here who has followed his entire career since 12 years old so maybe they can fill in.
You are starting to remind of that guy you used to discuss Smalling with.

I tend to agree that I'm not sure that Pau Torres is that much better than Lindelof overall. I'm fairly confident that he is significantly better on the ball (just like I was confident that Lindelof is significantly better than Smalling on the ball). I also tend to agree that it might not be wise to spend a big amount on a player that would not be a big improvement. However, I do think we need more options in central defence. Look at Liverpool this year. Currently we are running both Lindelof and Maguire to the ground. So we need a good option. And I prefer that we try to buy someone who would be an improvement on what we have. Not a cheap backup. Because if we buy a cheap backup, OGS wont trust him enough to play him (we might aswell stick with Tuanzebe).

Torres appears to be one of the best three or four CBs available right now. I also think he looks like a possible improvement on Lindelof and I like the fact that he is left footed. He would give us options and competition. We need that.

In conclusion, I like the fact that he looks more agile than Lindelof/Maguire and very good on the ball. His profile (age, level of performance in a good league etc) makes him an obvious target.
 

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Many? All I can remember is his two long passes to Rashford vs Sheffield and Granada. That's not many, he had to do more, which is why Rashford frustrated with the lack of long ball from Lindelof.

That's probably why there was lot of talk that Ole is also looking for left footed centre back so Maguire who is not afraid to make progressive pass can move as RCB to play more those type of long ball which something Lindelof tends to be afraid of.

Right now, Maguire is playing on the left which hard for Maguire to do it since the angle is against him as he's not a left footed. This fact and stats combined tell you that Lindelof is just more safe and will keep possession more than Maguire despite of the disadvantage Maguire has, playing on the left.
Lindelof has hit many more than 2 long balls towards the attackers this season. As i wrote, we have got 3 goals becasue of it (2 assist, 1 penalty). Here you can see what type of passes I am talking about:

Yes the reason why Maguire make all those low risk long balls to the left is because he is right footed at LCB position. But since Lindelof used to play LCB before but has moved to the right when Maguire came in, I doubt Maguire wants to play to the right. I think it is Maguire's preferred position. Also, I believe his long balls to Shaw /winger are very good and important. Not every long ball must create an immediate chance.

Yeah, that's probably why you are not sure if he's significantly better. At least someone who have watched him enough or pay attention on him most of the time in the game tell you the opposite.
I honestly doubt there are so many people who follow Villareal in this forum that they can make that claim. And again, he's good from what I've seen, but I question your assessment based of the stats "number of long balls" and "successful long balls" as 1. different leagues 2. different tactics and 3. %success depends on difficulty. McT is not a better passer than Bruno just because he has much higher pass%, imo.
 

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Lindelof has hit many more than 2 long balls towards the attackers this season. As i wrote, we have got 3 goals becasue of it (2 assist, 1 penalty). Here you can see what type of passes I am talking about:

Yes the reason why Maguire make all those low risk long balls to the left is because he is right footed at LCB position. But since Lindelof used to play LCB before but has moved to the right when Maguire came in, I doubt Maguire wants to play to the right. I think it is Maguire's preferred position. Also, I believe his long balls to Shaw /winger are very good and important. Not every long ball must create an immediate chance.


I honestly doubt there are so many people who follow Villareal in this forum that they can make that claim. And again, he's good from what I've seen, but I question your assessment based of the stats "number of long balls" and "successful long balls" as 1. different leagues 2. different tactics and 3. %success depends on difficulty. McT is not a better passer than Bruno just because he has much higher pass%, imo.
Yeah, Lindelof's long passing has improved a lot this season, or at least he is showcasing his skills this season. He played some awesome long passes this season.
 

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You are starting to remind of that guy you used to discuss Smalling with.

I tend to agree that I'm not sure that Pau Torres is that much better than Lindelof overall. I'm fairly confident that he is significantly better on the ball (just like I was confident that Lindelof is significantly better than Smalling on the ball). I also tend to agree that it might not be wise to spend a big amount on a player that would not be a big improvement. However, I do think we need more options in central defence. Look at Liverpool this year. Currently we are running both Lindelof and Maguire to the ground. So we need a good option. And I prefer that we try to buy someone who would be an improvement on what we have. Not a cheap backup. Because if we buy a cheap backup, OGS wont trust him enough to play him (we might aswell stick with Tuanzebe).

Torres appears to be one of the best three or four CBs available right now. I also think he looks like a possible improvement on Lindelof and I like the fact that he is left footed. He would give us options and competition. We need that.

In conclusion, I like the fact that he looks more agile than Lindelof/Maguire and very good on the ball. His profile (age, level of performance in a good league etc) makes him an obvious target.
I didn't mean to come out so negative, sorry for that. I would be happy if we bought him as we need one more good CB. But it would come at the expense of players in other positions, much more needed. And from the little I've watched him and Lindelof look very similar, for good and bad. I would want someone who can also replace Maguire, as none of Lindelof, Bailly or Tuanzebe can do that. Ok, Bailly for the aggressive part, but not in the air. One day Maguire will be injured and be out for 1-12 months... then what?

When it comes to the left footed part, I have always thought that LCB was Maguire's preferred position, but could be wrong.