If Alex Ferguson could have outspent every team in Europe he would’ve won more Champions Leagues.
'Pep' Guardiola sack watch
- Thread starter Classical Mechanic
- Start date
We held some of the world record transfer fees paid for players through his reign,
I won't turn this into a Pep vs SAF thread because i idolize SAF, he's one of my heroes however the point stands, Pep is a unique and fantastic coach and will go down as a great, just because he could have done better in europe should not diminish that, I rate SAF way way higher by the way but if you were to judge SAF on european records alone it wouldn't tell the whole story of how great he was as a coach.
Which players were they?
Why do people lie so much?
Man City were not top when Guardiola was announced, they were not 1st in the table since 28th November 2015. Leicester were 1st from middle of January right through to the end of the season.
I don't think so. It's not like he did not have money to spend for majority of his career. Things would have gone the same way.
Two champions league and 2 finals is still impressive. Should have been 4 if not for pep and his barcelona.
Klopp is better and Zidane hasn't done any worse than Pep really, all things considered.
This last season points to other conclusion.
You’re right, they were second. 3 points behind. They finished 4th, 15 points behind. The overall point remains, they gave up. It’s not a lie, you need to understand what that word means. They also weren’t defending champions to be fair, I got that wrong too.
Last edited:
One season doesn't erase career.
Klopp’s achievements with Dortmund and Liverpool are much more impressive than Guardiola's, because he did it with far fewer resources than the top teams in both cases, rather than continuing the dominance of an empire.
Even this season without their most important player in VVD they've finished third. I can't wait until he leaves Liverpool as he's brilliant.
Pep is still a great manager but he has his flaws. Fergie only won 2 champions leagues in his long career and often got something wrong in crucial games or didn't get the rub of the green.
This might be the best time for Pep to win it as many of the European giants aren't great right.
Ultimately, he isn't the Messiah, he's a very bald boy.
This might be the best time for Pep to win it as many of the European giants aren't great right.
Ultimately, he isn't the Messiah, he's a very bald boy.
That season was their first to finish out of the top 2 in 5 years as well, having won 2 of 5 titles (more than any other team in the period).
They were the best team in England when Guardiola took over, not to mention the bottomless pit of money, and they'd been planning for his arrival for years.
Fact. I also respect Ferguson, but I clearly remember that he was criticised for not doing better in Europe. There was a desire for Manchester United to dominate in Europe like they did in England and it never really happened. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t take away from the greatness when you look at the full picture. When a manager’s career is over, you get a greater perspective: you focus on the successes and ignore the failures. That’s the point.
With Guardiola, his career is still ongoing so we don’t know what else he will achieve. But he’s already one of the greatest managers of all time and will always be considered so, the haters will just have to accept that.
When has money deterred Bayern from firing a coach? No coach has spent 3 seasons at Bayern
I divide Fergie's CL record in two phases really:
Phase 1: 1996 - 2004
1997: Lost to Dortmund in SF
1998: Lost to Monaco on away goals in QF
1999: Won
2000: Lost to Real Madrid in QF
2001: Lost to Bayern in QF
2002: Lost to Leverkusen on away goals in QF
2003: Lost to Real Madrid in QF
2004: Lost to Porto in Last 16
That was a disappointing period of time because a) we lost four times to teams who we should have been considerably better than and b) failed to build on our 1999 triumph and create a short term dynasty in Europe.
We then went through 2 years of European oblivion after that, getting spanked by a superior Milan team in 2005 and going out in the group stages in 2006. We were not competitive domestically then either, as team was rebuilding. Afer that:
2007: Lost to Milan in SF
2008: Won
2009: Lost final to Barcelona
2010: Lost to Bayern on away goals in QF
2011: Lost final to Barcelona
2012: Knocked out in the group stages
2013: Lost in Last 16 to Real Madrid
I find it hard to be disappointed with that period to be honest, despite us winning only once. Barcelona were a generational team, the same level of performance would have won us additional two cups between 1997 and 2004 probably. Bayern and Madrid results were absolute freaks dictated by our players getting sent off in crucial moments of the game, some 30-40 minutes before the end of the second leg with us comfortably cruising towards a victory. Hard to be angry about that. 2012 was absolutely freakish year overall.
I think Fergie figured out Europe towards the end of his career, he couldn't overcome Barcelona which is a shame but otherwise did extremely well. He took a more pragmatic approach which resulted in us never getting knocked out by an unexpected team, we hardly ever lost away from home in that period.
Pep's CL record is different because all his success came virtually in his first three years. Everything that happened afterwards was a failure - he got spanked at Bayern in the end while having the best squad in Europe, he has so far got knocked out by inferior teams at City too: Monaco, Lyon, Tottenham. Destroyed by Liverpool too. It's almost like he has gone the reverse compared to Sir Alex, he had the competition figured out early in his career but actually stopped being good at it later. He's still a spectacular manager but to go 10 years without a final and then lose after such a poor game is definitely a dent on his record. He will probably win it 1-2 more times but at one point it looked like he was really going to dominate the competition. Never expected Zidane would have as many CL wins as he that quickly.
Pep didn't win the CL with Bayern yet was begged with an extension.
Maybe those in charge of Bayern don't know what success is measured by for their club
Last edited:
If my aunt had balls she would have been my uncle.
When Ferguson had foreigner limits, other teams in Europe had the same limits. Ferguson won 2 CL titles lost 2 finals to Pep
Before we start with its Messi Xavi things, Ferguson defeated Barcelona a season before they hired Guardiola with almost the same players Pep had
Klopp chooses jobs where he can go trophyless for some seasons and his job won't be under threat. This is Klopps 6th season at Liverpool and has been trophyless for 4 of them. This gives him time to build unlike other places where he has to deliver from day 1
That is why Klopp won't take a Madrid or City job.
Just to put into consideration:
---------------------- Steffen -----------------------
Cancelo ---- Ake ----- Laporte ----- Mendy
----------- KdB------- Fernandinho -----------
------- Torres ----- Silva----- Sterling -------
---------------------- Aguero ----------------------------
That's Cities 2nd 11 (caps). I know that KdB and Aguero were injured and that they would be the Top-player on each position but if you take both of them and replace them (KdB vs. either Rodri or Guendogan and Aguero with one of the midfielders or Jesus) then you can just see what an incredible squad debth they have.
So basically Guardiola has 2 teams in his squad with whom he could win the PL.
---------------------- Steffen -----------------------
Cancelo ---- Ake ----- Laporte ----- Mendy
----------- KdB------- Fernandinho -----------
------- Torres ----- Silva----- Sterling -------
---------------------- Aguero ----------------------------
That's Cities 2nd 11 (caps). I know that KdB and Aguero were injured and that they would be the Top-player on each position but if you take both of them and replace them (KdB vs. either Rodri or Guendogan and Aguero with one of the midfielders or Jesus) then you can just see what an incredible squad debth they have.
So basically Guardiola has 2 teams in his squad with whom he could win the PL.
Good breakdown. I know it looked like he was going to dominate the competition after the fantastic start, but I don’t think it’s actually possible to win 5 or 6 as a manager (see my post before about all legendary managers winning it only 2 or 3 times, even with strong teams and lots of money).
For example, Zidane started off well, and this year was looking to become the first man to win 4. He didn’t manage it, they were spanked by a Chelsea team that they were favoured to beat. What if he returns to management and goes the next 10 years without winning another CL? People will question him when they really shouldn’t, he still won 3 in a row.
I’ve long thought that Fergie underachieved by precisely one European Cup in his career. No club won more than three in the CL before he retired. If we’d won a third I think that would accurately represent our quality in that era. Fantasies of us winning five or six in 20 years are precisely that.
It's really hard but Pep was presented with a better opportunity than any other manager in history I think. It is very hard to repeat CL wins at the same club but he moved to the best team in Europe in 2013 and to a team with unlimited resources in 2016 which gave him a better platform than anyone had ever had. To not even win one between Bayern and City so far is very disappointing as that is literally what he was brought to these clubs for.
As for Zidane this year I don't think they were really favored to beat Chelsea. Considering their injury situation and relatively poor team quality for a Real Madrid side, I think it was basically 50/50. I don't think they were even favourites against Liverpool so to win that one was a good feat itself. Many had them to struggle against Atalanta with so many players out.
Yep. I think if his approach from 2007 onwards was there in 1996-2004, he would have won another one. Coincidentally the best opportunity was 2004 when our team was not really that good as we would have played Lyon, Deportivo and Monaco on our way to the trophy which looks reasonably straightforward on paper. And we had a perfectly good Scholes goal disallowed, we had Rio out after his drug test issue.
There’s plenty of examples of declining teams still doing well in Europe. A classic would be the invincibles who were a spent force domestically by 2006 but roused themselves in Europe and probably should have won. So, yeah, a 2004 win wouldn’t have actually been that weird. Fecking linesman.
Conversely, I wholeheartedly believe we were the best team in Europe in 2000 and 2009, and we fecked both up tactically.
The analogy falls a little short. Alex Ferguson didn’t have the financial advantage that Pep does, that’s a simple fact. The previous Barca manager failing to the point he was sacked isn’t the smoking gun you think it is.
People just casually make stuff up that they know nothing about, and with such confidence
He couldn’t go out and spend the money on players that Real Madrid did in his time and he didn’t have the money City or Chelsea spent or the money Italian clubs were spending in the 90’s. If he’d had the money to keep Ronaldo or even adequately replace him, he would’ve won more titles.
I’d agree. A third one would have been an accurate reflection of United’s quality and about the maximum that was achievable. Came close with the lost finals
In the last three seasons, would City fans prefer:
1) Two league titles and a second place finish, or
2) One league title, one CL title and a third place finish?
You buggers are daft on here, I swear.
He broke the British transfer record seven times. And how many times did Real Madrid win the Champions League whilst Ferguson was managing Manchester United? One more time than he did? It’s not just about the money, I’m not sure how many more times it needs to be said.
I dont know what City fans would prefer. Almost every United fan on here would choose the two league titles.In the last three seasons, would City fans prefer:
1) Two league titles and a second place finish, or
2) One league title, one CL title and a third place finish?
You buggers are daft on here, I swear.
False. One of the best first team spins with some gaps. He diced that squad
outgoings included Thuram, Ronaldinho, Zambrotta Deco, Giovani Dos Santos,
he brought in Dani Alvez, Keita, Busquets, Hleb, Pique - 4 of those became first team players off the bat.
Of course Utd fans would. So would Liverpool fans. I would take the two league titles easily to put us on 20.
But this is about City fans who have zero CL trophies for the trillions spent.
I think we can accept that injuries played a key factor. Liverpool don't have a big squad, if City had as many injuries as Liverpool then they could still field a stronger starting 11 than any team in the league.
Liverpool have a weaker squad and much less resources yet Klopp still managed to get to the CL final, them went on to finish 1 point behind Peps 98 point team in the league, and win the CL that same season, then win the PL on 99 points the following season.
Pep has the best squad in the league easily, and has spent the most. He couldn't do what Klopp did on the resources that Klopp had.
Zidane had an incredible start for Real, but last two year been a bit disappointing for them in CL. I think Klopp had a very poor season this year.
In terms of league management Pep is clearly the best. For CL Zidane have been the best, but he got helped by having a Ronaldo in insane form. Although Zidane did manage Ronaldo extremly well.
I think Zidane did ok in CL this year too, but he did almost get knocked out of the group.
Begged? That really does not sound like Bayern.
Nah, we'd switched to an open cheque book by the time Pep arrived.
Seriously, its all very well having the funds to buy and pay expensive players every year but selection and integration of those players is not easy.
City, Bayern and Chelsea have largely done it very well, United, Barca and Real less so in recent years.
He was the first coach in recent years that Bayern allowed 3yrs and offered multiple extensions which he turned down
Thing is with Pep, he shouldn't have made the final in 2009. Only way he got there was from having the ref going full UEFAlona on Chelsea.
That's one way of looking at it.
Another is that he chooses jobs that don't guarantee instant success, with some building and rebuilding required, smart recruitment and promotion, on a budget, in order to have success.
?
When I see gross and net spend tables City are usually leading them across Europe whereas United under SAF where nowhere close to being top spenders in Europe.