Peps new formation, do we like it?

tentan

Poor man's poster.
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
5,195
I wouldn't even dare try it on Fifa, but Guardiola has found a new way of playing. What do you think? No full backs and risky as it comes.


-------------------------Ederson-----------------------------
-------------Ake-----Dias--------Akanji-------------------
-----------------Rodri----Gundogan------------------------
De Bruyne---Stones-----Mahrez-----Grealish
--------------------------Haaland------------------------------
 
It's not new at all, his teams have been doing that since barcelona in 11/12. Then he perfected it at Bayern. Even earlier on at Barcelona they often set up like this, but they were more fluid, and it wasn't quite their base structure(though the main basic structures as early as 08/09 were lopsided 3-3-1-3 and 3-4-3/3-3-4, so, effectively just variations of the 3-2-5)
 
Last edited:
3241 has been his go to in possession for a long time, who slots where changes but thats always how Pep creates his overloads Don't think he'll even end up with 11 players lined up like that though.
 
I have always thought full-backs are meaningless, especially in posession so I'm always intrigued when top managers try to eliminate them entirely. Nagelsmann has been trying for a while as well

Maradona used to put full-backs down with the saying "they play football in the area of the pitch where football isn't played" and while the position has grotten modernized quite a bit over the years the outstanding players in the position has always been either centre-backs playing wide (Maldini) or wingers playing deep (Alves, Carlos)
 
Last edited:
For the record, arsenal also use the same base attacking structure, as do barcelona most of the time, as do most big sides. Real Madrid might genuinely be the only one left that doesn't structure itself like that or in some variation of it(2-1-4-3) and part of it is that Madrid just doesn't use a rigid structure at all
 
tentan said:
I wouldn't even dare try it on Fifa, but Guardiola has found a new way of playing. What do you think? No full backs and risky as it comes.


-------------------------Ederson-----------------------------
-------------Ake-----Dias--------Akanji-------------------
-----------------Rodri----Gundogan------------------------
De Bruyne---Stones-----Mahrez-----Grealish
--------------------------Haaland------------------------------
Click to expand...

Think you have it mixed up, Stones sits alongside Rodri in possession and can drop into a back 4. Grealish and Mahrez/B Silva sit outside De Bruyne and Gundogan
 
It, like all formations, is basically 4-4-2.

-------------------------Ederson
Stones -------------Ake-----Dias--------Akanji
Mahrez------------Rodri----Gundogan----- Grealish
----------------Haaland ----------De Bruyne
 
adexkola said:
Think you have it mixed up, Stones sits alongside Rodri in possession and can drop into a back 4. Grealish and Mahrez/B Silva sit outside De Bruyne and Gundogan
Click to expand...
This. Noticed that Stones sometimes get used as free man almost like a decoy to open up passing lanes into either Rodri (who Bayern tried to Block yesterday) or one of the more advanced midfielders. He also has license to attack space almost like an attacking midfielder in posession and moves into KdB's position when he drifts wide. This in turn lets Gundogan move close to Haaland and play almost a supporting striker role with the added benefit of ghosting in on crosses when the centre-backs are occupied with Haaland and the midfield trackers are following Kdb and/or Stones. The added benefit is that he can play a bit himself which makes it more effective than just sticking someone up there.

Not sure how New it is, he is basically a modern sweeper/more advanced inverted right-back. In established defence he slides back besides Dias in the centre with Akanji operating as the wide defender
 
FriedClams said:
River plate did it 70 years ago
Click to expand...
Everybody did it 70 years ago. It was literally the standard formation of the 1950s. The name for the positions of fullback and center forward come from those, though fullback has since changed meaning
DOTA said:
It, like all formations, is basically 4-4-2.

-------------------------Ederson
Stones -------------Ake-----Dias--------Akanji
Mahrez------------Rodri----Gundogan----- Grealish
----------------Haaland ----------De Bruyne
Click to expand...
Yup, and the ease of shifting from 3-2-5 to 4-4-2(that's how city and nearly every other side in the world bar liverpool defend) is also part of why it's so effective
 
3241 is just a slightly more defensive WM.
 
I think its very good. I dont think they really miss the full backs and potentially benefit a bit from being forced central towards haaland and it makes them really, really hard to break down. Seems to have found a really strong roll for Stones. I think i prefer B.Silva in for Mahrez a bit.
There aren't many teams that will get a chance to pick holes in the team just because of the quality
 
It depends on the opponent, I doubt they would employ that vs Madrid
 
It's helping Man City win football matches, so, no, I'm not a fan. I much preferred Frank Clark's tactics.
 
3-1-4-2 was played by The Netherlands before the World Cup, with Frenkie De Jong holding.
 
It’s alright until they get found out and pacy tricky wingers will have joy out wide.
 
Not risky when you got unlimited oil funds, and can sign a goal machine for 55m + 1billion in backhanders.
 
giorno said:
It's not new at all, his teams have been doing that since barcelona in 11/12. Then he perfected it at Bayern. Even earlier on at Barcelona they often set up like this, but they were more fluid, and it wasn't quite their base structure(though the main basic structures as early as 08/09 were lopsided 3-3-1-3 and 3-4-3/3-3-4, so, effectively just variations of the 3-2-5)
Click to expand...

He has used the structure for years inded, the new thing about this is that while formerly it used to be the fullback which inverted into midfield, now its just a center back (Stones) which pushes higher up to form a double pivot with the CDM. The main advantage of this change is that in case of a defensive transition, the defender can more easily slot in the backline while a full back has to run diagonally to take again his position. The change makes them stronger defensively.
Also having quick and strong center backs Akanji and Ake) deal with the opposition winger strenghtens even more the defensive solidity of the system.
 
DJ_21 said:
It’s alright until they get found out and pacy tricky wingers will have joy out wide.
Click to expand...

They just played against Coman, Musiala, and Sané mate. You don't get much better than that.

A good center back will do a better job against against a top winger than your average fullback. Just look at how Araujo makes Vinny struggle.
 
Earvin Johnson said:
They just played against Coman, Musiala, and Sané mate. You don't get much better than that.

A good center back will do a better job against against a top winger than your average fullback. Just look at how Araujo makes Vinny struggle.
Click to expand...
Ye but let’s not pretend that Bayern shouldn’t have scored 2/3 goals. They had at least 2 clear chances where they should have squared it but was too greedy and shot. Agree with the last part mate. CB always seem harder to come up against then FB. Dan burn is a good example of that even though he’s now moved to FB.
 
DJ_21 said:
Ye but let’s not pretend that Bayern shouldn’t have scored 2/3 goals. They had at least 2 clear chances where they should have squared it but was too greedy and shot. Agree with the last part mate. CB always seem harder to come up against then FB. Dan burn is a good example of that even though he’s now moved to FB.
Click to expand...

Yes but that's football it's a game of margins. Coaches can only account for so much, especially in cup competitions. City had those margins going against them more often than not in the CL
 
DJ_21 said:
It’s alright until they get found out and pacy tricky wingers will have joy out wide.
Click to expand...
They've been playing like this since Pep first came in, so far so good.

One of the few times they didn't off the top of my head was last season against liverpool, were they played a straight 4-4-2 in all phases instead of taking the usual 3-2-5 shape in possession

Barcelona also do the same thing against real madrid btw, but city didn't last season
 
tentan said:
I wouldn't even dare try it on Fifa, but Guardiola has found a new way of playing. What do you think? No full backs and risky as it comes.


-------------------------Ederson-----------------------------
-------------Ake-----Dias--------Akanji-------------------
-----------------Rodri----Gundogan------------------------
De Bruyne---Stones-----Mahrez-----Grealish
--------------------------Haaland------------------------------
Click to expand...
Does Stones play in a forward role now?
 
Formations on a board are pretty useless with modern sides, especially Pep sides. On and off the ball it totally changes, and from game to game.

That 3241 quickly becomes a 442 when Stones runs back into the defensive line.
 
FeedTheGoat said:
the outstanding players in the position has always been either centre-backs playing wide (Maldini) or wingers playing deep (Alves, Carlos)
Click to expand...
Ehm..? Maldini was, if you want to be pedantic, originally a right back, then switched to left back. He only became a CB later on, you seem to be alternating reality to fit your theory.

Not sure about the latter example either. Does being a shit winger count? And what about Nílton and Djalma Santos, Facchetti (again, left back first, centre back second), Amoros and a plethora of others? From top examples I’d pick Cafu (winger), Júnior (midfielder) and Thuram (centre-back) but it’s more of an exception than the rule.
 
He has best attacker in the world supported with amazing talent in midfield. He can do whatever he wants in backline.
What a genius he is.
 
FeedTheGoat said:
I have always thought full-backs are meaningless, especially in posession so I'm always intrigued when top managers try to eliminate them entirely. Nagelsmann has been trying for a while as well

Maradona used to put full-backs down with the saying "they play football in the area of the pitch where football isn't played" and while the position has grotten modernized quite a bit over the years the outstanding players in the position has always been either centre-backs playing wide (Maldini) or wingers playing deep (Alves, Carlos)
Click to expand...
Fullbacks provide width and overlaps, enabling a team to get to the byline. As for out of possession, if you are facing an Mbappe/Vini and don't have a fullback playing against them then you are in for a world of pain. Far from meaningless.
 
this is going to be like when Mourinho invented holding midfielders at Chelsea or Conte invented three at the back, it doesn’t exist until a Prem team does it
 
tentan said:
I wouldn't even dare try it on Fifa, but Guardiola has found a new way of playing. What do you think? No full backs and risky as it comes.


-------------------------Ederson-----------------------------
-------------Ake-----Dias--------Akanji-------------------
-----------------Rodri----Gundogan------------------------
De Bruyne---Stones-----Mahrez-----Grealish
--------------------------Haaland------------------------------
Click to expand...

Wasnt it more Stones and Rodri there? Basically the same role he's used Rico Lewis in around january.

Pep gets all the praise for this and columnists can't stop blabbering about "the Steve Jobs of football", but easily they forget how over-tinkering Pep has been in Champions League in the last 10 years, leading him to not winning Champions League since Barca.

At one point some of his tactics will simply work, when you try it enough times. Against a more cynical team with a good goalkeeper like Real Madrid it might not.
 
GlasgowCeltic said:
this is going to be like when Mourinho invented holding midfielders at Chelsea or Conte invented three at the back, it doesn’t exist until a Prem team does it
Click to expand...

He's a flipping genius alright.

Spent about half a billion on full backs, but that doesn't matter, now he just decides he doesn't need them at all.

The greatest football manager ever, reinventing football again.
 
It kinda makes sense. Aké is great at lcb in a back three. I guess he found a way to use
Stones differently as well.
 
GlasgowCeltic said:
this is going to be like when Mourinho invented holding midfielders at Chelsea or Conte invented three at the back, it doesn’t exist until a Prem team does it
Click to expand...
Not sure Michels, Cruyff, LVG et al. who studied under Pep would agree with you on this.
 
@Invictus @harms

Isn't the 424 supposed to be the anti WM? Or am I misremembering the reason why team stopped using it, iirc Brazil and hungary wrecked it?
 
It's a bit novel in the sense that stones pushes up from cb into a pivot with rodri rather than coming across from rb. This is better as out of possession stones can just slot back into cb so less distance covered to get into a defensive shape. Also with this shape of course comes the benefit of playing the box midfield as well which helps city outnumber opponents when they deploy their typical midfield 3
 
JPRouve said:
@Invictus @harms

Isn't the 424 supposed to be the anti WM? Or am I misremembering the reason why team stopped using it, iirc Brazil and hungary wrecked it?
Click to expand...
Hungary wrecked WM with what, technically, was also a WM but with a false 9, which fecked England’s man-marking up.

4-2-4 and the eventual 4-4-2/4-3-3 (the latter being probably a better representation of Brazil’s sides of the 1958-62 due to Zagallo’s role) phased WM out due to it being more balanced, not because it was WM’s kryptonite. But no one could imagine that scale of positional domination that Pep brought to the table back then.
 
harms said:
Hungary wrecked WM with what, technically, was also a WM but with a false 9, which fecked England’s man-marking up.

4-2-4 and the eventual 4-4-2/4-3-3 (the latter being probably a better representation of Brazil’s sides of the 1958-62 due to Zagallo’s role) phased WM out due to it being more balanced, not because it was WM’s kryptonite. But no one could imagine that scale of positional domination that Pep brought to the table back then.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I seem to remember that one of the issues with WM is that with traditional wingers, two center forwards and two defensively sound 8s, you can easily stretch the backline and exploit inside channels. Current narrow attacking formations with wide backlines and inverted wide players play into the WM.

I think that Zidane had a pretty good idea with his sort of 442/433 hybrid.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.