Players differently rated at club and national team

Grande

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So, with Euro 21 and Copa America going on, (and Hannibal and Amad racking up minutes for Tunisia and Cote d’Ivoire), we have a lot of discussions about why star players aren’t playing enough - Jadon Sancho, Adam Grealish, Bruno Fernandez yesterday etc - and of course who’s to blame (it’s Southgate).

It made me think of some other cases of players who excelled at club level but where not equally effective or appreciated in their national team. Scholes and even Carrick has been mentioned alot already. One stand out for me, is Eric Cantona, who dominated English football ahead of players like Dennis Bergkamp, Jürgen Klimsmann, Alan Shearer and Gianfranco Zola, but whereas these played important parts for their nations at big tournaments (Zola, though, was also somwhat underplayed for Italy as I recall), Le Roi wasn’t even selected for France at the height of his powers, even after he stopped being quarrelly and difficult. This of course also had to to with the development of a young Zinedine Zidane, and the French idea that two things are needed to conquer the world: A pick of grandiose masculine egos to lead the rest into battle, and a bunch of well oiled guillotines to remove most of the egoes to prevent civil war and mutiny.

Another one was Diego Maradona in 1978, only 17 but already arguably Argentinas most dangerous individual player, kept out of the squad altogether - alledgedly to shield him at a young age, but also probably not to create a stir in the established pecking order of the squad shortly before the WC where all eyes where watching Argentina but also the nationalistic junta arranging the tournament.

Ole Gunnar Solskjær himself came from the bench to fill in at right midfield for tiny Norway at the 1998 WC, due to the (successful) tactical dispositions of Egil ‘Mad Professor’ Olsen, preferring the towering Flo brothers as starters in a 4-5-1.

We also have the opposite: Paul Pogba the great captain of the tournament giants France, shuffled around between various positions and the bench even at his club.

Who can forget Kleberson? Or Carlton Palmer? And how good was Karel Poborsky really? Or Miroslav Klose? Jan Koller? Peter Crouch?

Shoot forth with examples of puzzling cases of ‘he can’t be that good, he barely gets a sniff at (insert name of club/NT)!
 

bsCallout

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Does Defoe count? Top forward in the Prem, didn't get a look it or perform for England.
 

JPRouve

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The Cantona part needs context. Cantona was rated and he was the captain but Zidane was a better 10 and was supposed to lead the the midfield in 1998. Cantona was offered the striking position by Jacquet but he declined.
 

Oranges038

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Steve Bruce.

I know England had a lot of decent centre halves in the 90s, but it's still strange that he never got a look in.
 

pacifictheme

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The Cantona part needs context. Cantona was rated and he was the captain but Zidane was a better 10 and was supposed to lead the the midfield in 1998. Cantona was offered the striking position by Jacquet but he declined.
You got a source for that? I thought he got booted out the national team and hadn't played for a few years prior to 1998?

Just checked and Wikipedia states they had no intention of bringing him back for euro 96 let alone 98.
 

Bwuk

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David Healy always springs to mind. Rubbish at club level generally but banged goals in for Northern Ireland.
 

JPRouve

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You got a source for that? I thought he got booted out the national team and hadn't played for a few years prior to 1998?

Just checked and Wikipedia states they had no intention of bringing him back for euro 96 let alone 98.
It's from Tournon, RMC Decouverte had a documentary about the 96-98 period, named Génération Zidane. Jacquet idea was to have Zidane as the playmaker and Cantona as the goalscorer but Cantona didn't thought that it was a role where he could perform well enough, he wanted more freedom.

PS: Cantona has never been booted by the FFF, he was very liked by Jacquet, Houllier, Platini and the FFF in general, in 97 he joined it to become a player and manager of the Beach soccer national team.
 
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KirkDuyt

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Wijnaldum is a great goalscorer for Oranje whereas at Liverpool he's an anonymous runner.

Podolski is surely the ultimate poster boy for this topic though.
 

Lay

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David Healy always springs to mind. Rubbish at club level generally but banged goals in for Northern Ireland.
Was world class at international football.

Gary Breen, had such a good World Cup in 2002 that he had the option to join Inter or Coventry. He chose Coventry.
 

Wonder Pigeon

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Was world class at international football.

Gary Breen, had such a good World Cup in 2002 that he had the option to join Inter or Coventry. He chose Coventry.
It was West Ham, from Coventry, and he failed a medical at Inter...
 

krentz

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I dont remember United fans cared so much about players performing in the international tournament. Also isnt Pogba the first United player to feature in a World Cup final after Sir Bobby & Nobby Stiless in 1966?
 

Demyanenko_square_jaw

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Argentina has a few where players that were absolute legends of the domestic game didn't get many caps. The versatile Miguel Angel Brindisi made the AFA's all-time 11 from 2015 (or so) in midfield, but wasn't picked much after 1974 even after returning from Spain. Norberto Alonso and Ricardo Bochini, two of their greatest playmakers didn't play often, though the emergence of Maradona halfway through their careers obvously didn't help, Carlos Babington another. Carlos Bianchi and Delio Onnis, two of the greatest historic Ligue 1 goalscorers didn't play often or at all. Foreign based players were rarely called during the 70s.
 

RedRonaldo

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You got a source for that? I thought he got booted out the national team and hadn't played for a few years prior to 1998?

Just checked and Wikipedia states they had no intention of bringing him back for euro 96 let alone 98.
I think it was after the kung fu kick incident, he was no longer selected because of suspension. And during the suspension period, French manager at that time has decided to change the team without Cantona, Papin and Ginola, and to build a new team around Zidane.
 

Gonçalo Motta

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Miroslav Klose has to be the number 1 in this regard.

Consistently one of the best players in international tournaments then he disappears for 2 years until the next tournament.
 

krentz

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Miroslav Klose has to be the number 1 in this regard.

Consistently one of the best players in international tournaments then he disappears for 2 years until the next tournament.
He was excellent for Kaiserslautern, Bremen, and Bayern. If you want to pick another german player, pick Lukas Podolski, the international tournament specialist.
 

pacifictheme

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It's from Tournon, RMC Decouverte had a documentary about the 96-98 period, named Génération Zidane. Jacquet idea was to have Zidane as the playmaker and Cantona as the goalscorer but Cantona didn't thought that it was a role where he could perform well enough, he wanted more freedom.

PS: Cantona has never been booted by the FFF, he was very liked by Jacquet, Houllier, Platini and the FFF in general, in 97 he joined it to become a player and manager of the Beach soccer national team.
Interesting. Thanks for that.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

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NT football is basically all that people would watch prior to the 90s.

It was much harder to follow football, NT football is actually the ultimate casual experience and the WC is the biggest plastic competition in the world like it or not.

If Pogba had played in the 80s he'd be hailed as a legendary player and no one would care about his club career not being up to par with his WC/Euro performances, because most people would not even watch club Pogba play
 

HTG

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He was excellent for Kaiserslautern, Bremen, and Bayern. If you want to pick another german player, pick Lukas Podolski, the international tournament specialist.
He really wasn’t excellent for Bayern.
 

poleglass red

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going back, John Barnes, never really consistently showed his club form at international level, seen flashes, scored that famous goal in Brazil but his club form in his peak was different level.
 

Grande

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It was West Ham, from Coventry, and he failed a medical at Inter...
A propos West Ham, it got me thinking about Trevor Brooking. Don’t know if he was underwhelming for England, or if it was more that England where so underwhelming in a period where their players dominated Europe ar club level between 77 and 85, yet the NT didn’t even qualify for some of the big tournaments. Phil Neal, Kevin Keegan, Trevor Francis, Tony Woodcock, Glen Hoddle, Ray Clemence/Peter Shilton where some of the names.
 

do.ob

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He really wasn’t excellent for Bayern.
He was a genuine top player for Bremen, at the very least a starter for Bayern and even at the end into his career, deep into his 30s, he still delivered okay numbers and it's not like he suddenly turned into a world beater later on for die Mannschaft. It was more that he fit the team really well and performed consistently decent.

I think Podolski and arguably even Schweinsteiger (pre conversion to CM) fit that bill much better.
 

Vidyoyo

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It's a good topic but I feel the answer is quite simple:

International football is built around the effectiveness of the team and because there's only a few games, you have to find the right balance quickly. Unless it's Ronaldo and Messi, you can't get entertain the idea of relying on the brilliance of individual players. The window of play is simply too small.

Doesn't always work out but I think this is the general idea behind manager's decisions.
 

Gio

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Pepe - Brazil. Not rated differently as such, but missed the 1958 and 1962 World Cup wins through injury so his replacement Zagallo became much more famous, despite Pepe (in my view) being a more explosive player, scoring something like 500 goals over the course of his career from the left wing.

Alan Hansen - Scotland - crashed into Willie Miller in the final minutes of the 1982 World Cup group stages against the Soviet Union. Only played 6 more times for the national team.

Roy Makaay - Netherlands - partly due to competition from Kluivert, Bergkamp, Van Nistelrooy and Hasselbaink, and partly because he came to the fore just after these other strikers, so had the harder job of displacing them, or alternatively playing in a makeshift role off the right flank.

Italian forwards in the 1990s - Mancini, Vialli, Zola, Signori - none of them had much of an international career, largely due to overly pragmatic managers.
 

Bepi

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World class players excel at both levels, irrespective of the surroundings: Ronaldo, De Bruyne, Kante, to name three.
 

Grande

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Pepe - Brazil. Not rated differently as such, but missed the 1958 and 1962 World Cup wins through injury so his replacement Zagallo became much more famous, despite Pepe (in my view) being a more explosive player, scoring something like 500 goals over the course of his career from the left wing.

Alan Hansen - Scotland - crashed into Willie Miller in the final minutes of the 1982 World Cup group stages against the Soviet Union. Only played 6 more times for the national team.

Roy Makaay - Netherlands - partly due to competition from Kluivert, Bergkamp, Van Nistelrooy and Hasselbaink, and partly because he came to the fore just after these other strikers, so had the harder job of displacing them, or alternatively playing in a makeshift role off the right flank.

Italian forwards in the 1990s - Mancini, Vialli, Zola, Signori - none of them had much of an international career, largely due to overly pragmatic managers.
True, a shame how many playmakers and trequartistas Italy produced compared to how much they got out of them in Azzurri. Vially made it, but it’s easy to see also Alessandro Del Piero and Francesco Totti getting more out of themselves in the National team.
 

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Patrice Evra? Our best left back since Irwin and probably the best LB in the PL for several reasons, but still couldn't get a start for France for much of his international career thanks to Eric Abidal.

I can see a similar situation ensuing with AWB and England in the future.

Ander Herrera also has TWO caps for Spain! Though its not fault he happens to have been at his prime during the era of the greatest Spanish team ever.
 

JPRouve

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Patrice Evra? Our best left back since Irwin and probably the best LB in the PL for several reasons, but still couldn't get a start for France for much of his international career thanks to Eric Abidal.

I can see a similar situation ensuing with AWB and England in the future.

Ander Herrera also has TWO caps for Spain! Though its not fault he happens to have been at his prime during the era of the greatest Spanish team ever.
Evra has more selections than Abidal for France and Abidal has a large amount of them as CB.
 

rojo81

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Eduardo Vargas comes to mind. Very average to bad in clubs in Italy, Brazil and Germany, did just OK at Tigres in México, but always scores for Chile.
 

Chipper

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Milan Baros often seemed to do better for the Czech Republic than his clubs.
 

Schmeichel's Cartwheel

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Patrice Evra? Our best left back since Irwin and probably the best LB in the PL for several reasons, but still couldn't get a start for France for much of his international career thanks to Eric Abidal.

I can see a similar situation ensuing with AWB and England in the future.

Ander Herrera also has TWO caps for Spain! Though its not fault he happens to have been at his prime during the era of the greatest Spanish team ever.
Evra has 81 caps for France.
 

Zaphod2319

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Was Bruno good for Portugal in the last Euro when they won?
 

tomaldinho1

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Wijnaldum is a great goalscorer for Oranje whereas at Liverpool he's an anonymous runner.

Podolski is surely the ultimate poster boy for this topic though.
Always thought he was class for Pool although Klopp made his game less about goal involvements than it had been. Probably the one CM I always thought United could have done with from Pool (until Fabinho came), technically very good, fast and aggressive off the ball.

I remember at Newcastle he had more attacking responsibilities and, especially considering he was playing in a team that got relegated (from memory, might be wrong) he had a huge influence on games (11 goals and 5 assists in 38 games).

Klose is a great candidate for this thread & also Lampard/Gerrard/Heskey.
 

giorno

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Italian forwards in the 1990s - Mancini, Vialli, Zola, Signori - none of them had much of an international career, largely due to overly pragmatic managers.
Vialli was a starter in 3 straight tournaments in his prime. Would have been 4 but we didn't qualify in '92. The others, well, we were kind of stacked in that period. Nobody was displacing Baggio after '90 and then the emergence of Del Piero and Totti shut the door for good.

Mancini should have been given more chances though. It was the 90s too and everybody had picked the wrong lessons from Sacchi, too :D