Playing from the back

[032Devil]

Almost two seasons of Solskjaer football philosophy of controlling the game from the back by playing the ball from the goalkeeper to the defenders to the midfield etc. The number of times the goallie passes to Maguire who has no one to pass to, passes back to the goallie who then passes to Lindelof, repeat, pass back to the goallie and so on and so on, in different combinations eventually losing the ball and increasing the oppositions chances of attack our goal while our midfield and attack are in no position to help the defence.

IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!

The opposition know our style of play and they keep their players high up the field, pressurising our defenders who subsequently either lose the ball in a very dangerous area or are forced into making a mistakes. The errors caused by this strategy are so numberous and we lose posession so many time either our trainers are too pig-head in presisting and/or can't see that our defenders are not good enough to handle this system of play.

 

[meamth]

Almost two seasons of Solskjaer football philosophy of controlling the game from the back by playing the ball from the goalkeeper to the defenders to the midfield etc. The number of times the goallie passes to Maguire who has no one to pass to, passes back to the goallie who then passes to Lindelof, repeat, pass back to the goallie and so on and so on, in different combinations eventually losing the ball and increasing the oppositions chances of attack our goal while our midfield and attack are in no position to help the defence.

IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!

The opposition know our style of play and they keep their players high up the field, pressurising our defenders who subsequently either lose the ball in a very dangerous area or are forced into making a mistakes. The errors caused by this strategy are so numberous and we lose posession so many time either our trainers are too pig-head in presisting and/or can't see that our defenders are not good enough to handle this system of play.

But somehow after some brainfarts in the first half we were able to dominate from the back.

It's a mental thing.

 

[Sylar]

It worked in the second half where the Mata chance occurred second half. We've had mixed results but it does seem when we screw up it results in a goal.

Also to the original point, the keeper passed to Maguire and he did have options yesterday. I think this is often the case. He could have passed to Telles but went back into a press.

Maguires position was wrong and he needs to learn from that, lindelof was right though. It does seem our players seem to be on top of each other and not stretching out the play especially as the ball moves faster than the ball.

I dont have an issue with us passing out the back as long as we mix it up too. If the opposition is pressing all the time, then we have the opportunity to knock it long into space for the fast players (like Rashford) to run into. This means the opposition need to drop back and lose the affectiveness of their press. We will see if we've learnt cos you know Leeds will press even more crazily

What hasn't helped is when we change players and formations a lot and don't have a set style where if you take one player out, another goes in easily.
I think the players need to be coached where they should be to collect the ball, but also need to be smart in terms of the option to pick when there's a press (that of course is if you have the players to do it)

 

[Longshanks]

Almost two seasons of Solskjaer football philosophy of controlling the game from the back by playing the ball from the goalkeeper to the defenders to the midfield etc. The number of times the goallie passes to Maguire who has no one to pass to, passes back to the goallie who then passes to Lindelof, repeat, pass back to the goallie and so on and so on, in different combinations eventually losing the ball and increasing the oppositions chances of attack our goal while our midfield and attack are in no position to help the defence.

IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!

The opposition know our style of play and they keep their players high up the field, pressurising our defenders who subsequently either lose the ball in a very dangerous area or are forced into making a mistakes. The errors caused by this strategy are so numberous and we lose posession so many time either our trainers are too pig-head in presisting and/or can't see that our defenders are not good enough to handle this system of play.

The evidence of our form in the last year or so suggests otherwise, it works and we will get even slicker with it, it carries s risk and occasionally even the very best play out from back team get caught out.

 

[Foxbatt]

We are not playing from the back. We are TRYING to play from the back. Ole has to teach them to use their brains. Look at the second goal too. Yes we do zonal marking but what is the point in zonal marking if there are no players in the zone to mark but other zones are getting overloaded? This is exactly what happened to their second goal. I would say that our biggest problem in defence is Harry Maguire. He does not organize the defence. Lindelof does but Maguire does not listen to him and Lindelof cannot impose himself because Maguire is the Captain. Maguire should have pulled back some of our players who were in the zone where there is not going to be any Sheffield players and pulled them back to the back post where they were overloading. That would have stopped the goal. Players need to use their brains a bit too depending on the situation.

 

[Bilbo]

It draws the opposition out so we can create space in the final third.

 

[Hugh Jass]

We dont actually have a style. Our system or tactics is to get the ball to the front four and then leave them through their brilliance to make chances and score. G Neville essentially said this when he said we are relying on moments of brilliance to score rather than as a collective unit.

But it is working. Win our game in hand and we would be third or second.

 

[MikeKing]

We dont actually have a style. Our system or tactics is to get the ball to the front four and then leave them through their brilliance to make chances and score. G Neville essentially said this when he said we are relying on moments of brilliance to score rather than as a collective unit.

But it is working. Win our game in hand and we would be third or second.

Do you really shave your ass? I'd like to get into that but I'm afraid I don't have the confidence to try it out. I'll work up to it some day I guess.

 

[adexkola]

Do you really shave your ass? I'd like to get into that but I'm afraid I don't have the confidence to try it out. I'll work up to it some day I guess.

I was wondering how the feck you deduced this from his post

 

[adexkola]

Regarding playing out the back...

Look it's good to mix it up, but every team with aspirations of doing anything worthwhile needs to be able to perform this well under pressure. If the opposition overhedge then yeah hoof it up to Rashford but if you can't play out the back at all then there will be only so much opportunities you can fashion out of winning the second ball. The best teams can hurt you either way

 

[Galactic]

Was thinking of making the exact thread.

It’s nerve wrecking to watch. You just know something bad will happen and we lose possession. But I guess we are still learning.It’s not a bad thing to learn.We will learn form every mistake and improve as a unit (hopefully).

Playing from the back needs everyone’s involvement really. Not just the back 4 and goalie.

 

[el3mel]

We need to improve it, not throw it completely out of the window. It's a good thing to try and play some modern football from the back and build a proper attack instead of hoofing it. At the moment we suck in it, but I find it a good concept and we need to just improve doing it.

 

[MikeKing]

One option when the opposing team is committing way to many players high up and clearly setting up just to counter tactic us playing out from the back, is to do a fake start. If we send another midfielder high up the field, then Maguire can do the long ball pass in a certain area we'll outcrowd them. We lose most of our 1vs1 when we hoof the ball but our midfielders might as well stay higher up the pitch to overcrowd a certain area. We certainly don't risk less than when they stay in the middle of the pitch doing nothing waiting to job back to defence when we lose the ball. I do think we press well with our team when we do it collectively and this would be a chance to do that, and if we can win the ball we would be in a very good position.

If we do this, other teams might not press us as high as they do and we could play out from the back in a fashionable manner again. Doing it when it isn't on is just dumb in my opinion, and playing into the opposition hands. Yeah it's about us being us, but we shouldn't be predictable unless we're unstoppable in the same breath.

 

[RUCK4444]

It can be frustrating but it IS the right way to play, and it’s something a team can take a good while to get used to.

It helps control possession and draws the opponent out.

 

[Ali Dia]

I think we are getting better at it but we are and have been missing vital components. A gk with top distribution and a DM who can take the ball and move it in high pressure situations are both essential. I’d like to see someone like Rice back there as a cb spreading the play, especially against smaller teams

 

[adexkola]

It can be frustrating but it IS the right way to play, and it’s something a team can take a good while to get used to.

It helps control possession and draws the opponent out.

I don't remember the game last season where Chelsea went ahead, brought Jorginho on and killed the game by controlling possession between defense and midfield. It's a valid tool to have in your arsenal.

 

[RUCK4444]

I don't remember the game last season where Chelsea went ahead, brought Jorginho on and killed the game by controlling possession between defense and midfield. It's a valid tool to have in your arsenal.

Yup it is indeed.

 

[032Devil]

It draws the opposition out so we can create space in the final third.

I understand that but too many mistakes are made to justify an occasional opportunity at the other end.

 

[Bilbo]

I understand that but too many mistakes are made to justify an occasional opportunity at the other end.

I dont agree. I think the end justifies the means

 

[lex talionis]

I'm not opposed in principle to playing out of the back, but we should do our very best to avoid passing back to the keeper when he's only a meter in front of goal. That's asking for danger and when you ask for danger, danger comes.

But I would like to see balls played into touch or hoofed up to the midway line when pressed without clear options playing out of the back.

 

[gerdm07]

It can be frustrating but it IS the right way to play, and it’s something a team can take a good while to get used to.

It helps control possession and draws the opponent out.

Agree. I might add it is the only way to play and be consistently good in the modern game. The day we start going away from playing out of the back is the day we head to permanent mediocrity.

 

[bsCallout]

It does work.

We just dont choose the right moments.

The first 15 minutes against a team pressing aggressively with high energy is not the time to try.

We score plenty from build up at the back.

We just have to get better at 'playing the moments'. When it needs to go long, just go long.

 

[iHicksy]

We don't create triangles. It's something i've noticed with our attempts at passing out from the back and it's so basic it has me shouting at the t.v in annoyance. We play it flat along the back four, the centre mids don't move quickly enough into the space between attackers to offer an option to progress the play (i've noted Mctom is particularly guilting of this - he often hides beind the attackers putting pressure on our own defence. We end up going back to our left or right back because there aren't options in the centre and then we get hemmed in further and further before we lose possession in dangerous areas or have to hoof it away. There are often huge pockets of space between the lines where we should be creating angles - and this absolutely has to be a training issue.

 

[Plymouth Red]

I think it’s the way to go when you have a confident goalie and back four. When I watch our chaps, I don’t see that confidence as a matter of course. The habit of conceding early goals only serves to make matters worse.
When the ball in is moved forward, particularly when it’s to Pogba, we are often ponderous with it, inviting the opposition to press hard and fast.
Nothing we write here will lead to a change in approach on the field, but maybe we shouldn’t be surprised if we find ourselves under unnecessary pressure, especially against a team like Leeds.

 

[Foxbatt]

Everyone knows that we pass among the back four and eventually someone hoofs it up. As another OP said we do not play triangles. I remember Johan Cruijff saying once that helping him when he has the ball is for the his team mate not be too close to him and to move away so that he has that empty space available to him. Maguire yesterday was stupid for the first goal.

 

[USREDEVIL]

It does work.

We just dont choose the right moments.

The first 15 minutes against a team pressing aggressively with high energy is not the time to try.

We score plenty from build up at the back.

We just have to get better at 'playing the moments'. When it needs to go long, just go long.

Yeah. Sometimes they need to just launch the ball. Especially in the first 15 as you say where they're going to try and get a quick goal knowing we usually sleepwalk for a bit.

 

[ole@thewheel]

It is worth the risk to play from the back for us, with our setup imo.

It gives players like Pogba and Bruno time and space to look for a killer pass above the defense for fast players like Rashford and Martial. All of those scenarios use the best of our attacker's best abilities (killer pass and blistering pace) and tone-down their weakness (loose that ball from taking too long to pass (MF) and try to work in tight spaces (FW)).

Our best plays came from the situations like these, shame that the finishing was not good enough this season (think away vs Leipzig ).

The problem is that we lack pace on the central defense, that could have been used to get out of some situations (you can run with the ball instead of passing it without moving) ,AWB is not really suited in this system (yet) and our keepers are not the in best of their abilities passing with their feet (shame that we dont have VDS now).

But again its totally worth the risk. We scored way more goals coming from those situations than we conceded.

 

[adexkola]

It does work.

We just dont choose the right moments.

The first 15 minutes against a team pressing aggressively with high energy is not the time to try.

We score plenty from build up at the back.

We just have to get better at 'playing the moments'. When it needs to go long, just go long.

Sure but going long can't be just an aimless hoof.

This is the strength of Allison/Ederson... Their long balls are damned near assists. Our keeper/backline doesn't have this mastered yet. Wasn't this one of Schmichael's strengths? Quick gather and out to a racing winger?

 

[RUCK4444]

Agree. I might add it is the only way to play and be consistently good in the modern game. The day we start going away from playing out of the back is the day we head to permanent mediocrity.

Yeah exactly. If we aspire to play decent football we need the team to be comfortable playing out from the back.

I do think we are improving at it slowly, still a little clumsy under a proper opposition press but the only way to master it is to persist with it and coaching it.

 

[bsCallout]

Sure but going long can't be just an aimless hoof.

This is the strength of Allison/Ederson... Their long balls are damned near assists. Our keeper/backline doesn't have this mastered yet. Wasn't this one of Schmichael's strengths? Quick gather and out to a racing winger?

Yes of course. There has to be a bit of quality to the long ball or at the very least playing it into their corner flag. When we have such fast forwards its bizarre we dont play that ball everytime we are on the back foot.

 

[Trequarista10]

What's interesting is we're doing it different recently to last season.

Last season, Matic or whoever was DM would drop between the CBs into a back 3, and the full backs would push up a bit. Similiar shape to how most possession based teams build up.

Recently we seem to build with a flat back four, and the DM or both DMs stay in midfield. This may be because Fred and McTominay are poor at playing out from the back, and our full backs have nothing offensively, but we seemed to do it yesterday against Sheff United too even with Telles in the side and Matic. It means our full backs aren't a passing option to beat the press, instead 2 more deeper passing options, but the downside is when they get the ball their in limited space, and the passing lane can be cut off by a half decent press.

 

[Cutch]

We're obviously making a conscious effort not to go long with our goalkicks as our front 3 are pathetic in the air and collectively pretty poor at trying to hold a ball up. All the top sides can pass out from the back so it's something we need to stick with if we've any hopes of gettin to that level

 

[Longshanks]

We are actually very good against high press teams we work our way out the press generally quite well, I think the issue last night was a combination of a Henderson brain fart and we had our least press resistance midfield in play. Its Gonna happen from time to time but its generates chances as we want teams to press us to generate space for our fast forwards. We actually actively encouraged City try and press us but the were very stand off ish quite rightly worried.about our ability to work through them. We also handed out a beating to lepzig when they tried to press us, in the return leg they sat of us more and Southampton have also been played of the park this season trying press us, and Chelsea who are a high press side come to Old Trafford and parked the bus scared to press us.

We are more than capable of playing out from the back successfully, but we do have some issue with intensity and tempo which was on show first 15 and last 15 minutes last night.

 

[justsomebloke]

The big question to me is, what's the alternative? Hoofing it?

What's interesting is we're doing it different recently to last season.

Last season, Matic or whoever was DM would drop between the CBs into a back 3, and the full backs would push up a bit. Similiar shape to how most possession based teams build up.

Recently we seem to build with a flat back four, and the DM or both DMs stay in midfield. This may be because Fred and McTominay are poor at playing out from the back, and our full backs have nothing offensively, but we seemed to do it yesterday against Sheff United too even with Telles in the side and Matic. It means our full backs aren't a passing option to beat the press, instead 2 more deeper passing options, but the downside is when they get the ball their in limited space, and the passing lane can be cut off by a half decent press.

Interesting observation, and you're right. I wonder if that reflects a certain shift in emphasis towards counterattack compared with late last year? Trying to draw the press high to create breaks? Late last year, it seemed there was more of an emphasis on just transporting the ball safely to the offensive zone, and then take it from there with established offensive play.

 

[justsomebloke]

Almost two seasons of Solskjaer football philosophy of controlling the game from the back by playing the ball from the goalkeeper to the defenders to the midfield etc. The number of times the goallie passes to Maguire who has no one to pass to, passes back to the goallie who then passes to Lindelof, repeat, pass back to the goallie and so on and so on, in different combinations eventually losing the ball and increasing the oppositions chances of attack our goal while our midfield and attack are in no position to help the defence.

IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!

The opposition know our style of play and they keep their players high up the field, pressurising our defenders who subsequently either lose the ball in a very dangerous area or are forced into making a mistakes. The errors caused by this strategy are so numberous and we lose posession so many time either our trainers are too pig-head in presisting and/or can't see that our defenders are not good enough to handle this system of play.

Well, what's the alternative? Hoofing it?

 

[wolvored]

Its a good tactic only if its coached right and the players can competently do it. We fail on one or maybe both of these, especially when the other team are fresh and know if they press hard the defence cant handle it.

 

[galwayfa]

Honestly, I have a murmur on my heart, its not good for it, they don't look comfortable

 

[Borys]

Back 4 is comfortable on the ball, but we lack patterns of play. It's not good enough to look for a pass when you receive the ball, you have to be aware of your options all the time. Easier said than done but a simple dummy is also quite effective against a striker running at you.

As for midfield, Matic drops deep but he doesn't have the passing range to help out and likes to hold on to the ball, Pogba moves around the pitch but he's not good off the ball. Fred and McTominay are the best to build up play from the back because they play quick passes and move around a lot. Unpopular opinion on this forum I guess.

 

[Trequarista10]

The big question to me is, what's the alternative? Hoofing it?


Interesting observation, and you're right. I wonder if that reflects a certain shift in emphasis towards counterattack compared with late last year? Trying to draw the press high to create breaks? Late last year, it seemed there was more of an emphasis on just transporting the ball safely to the offensive zone, and then take it from there with established offensive play.

That's probably it, but it's putting a lot of pressure on Maguire and Lindelof, as often they only have eachother and the GK to pass to.

It's easy to criticise Maguire and Lindelof, but watching the shape yesterday they were on their own, whereas for example Barca always had Busquets joining the back 3, City Fernandinho, Liverpool Fabinho etc. Would also help if our full backs had the ability to drive forwards with the ball too.

 

[tjb]

Almost two seasons of Solskjaer football philosophy of controlling the game from the back by playing the ball from the goalkeeper to the defenders to the midfield etc. The number of times the goallie passes to Maguire who has no one to pass to, passes back to the goallie who then passes to Lindelof, repeat, pass back to the goallie and so on and so on, in different combinations eventually losing the ball and increasing the oppositions chances of attack our goal while our midfield and attack are in no position to help the defence.

IT JUST DOESN'T WORK!

The opposition know our style of play and they keep their players high up the field, pressurising our defenders who subsequently either lose the ball in a very dangerous area or are forced into making a mistakes. The errors caused by this strategy are so numberous and we lose posession so many time either our trainers are too pig-head in presisting and/or can't see that our defenders are not good enough to handle this system of play.

Personally i feel we overuse it, we should be able to react instinctively instead of playing in out of the back even when we're not progressing forward.
For me, the bigger question is why it doesn't work for us like it does for other teams?

It's not the two centre backs. For me its the combination of our forwards being too high(not providing themselves as viable options) and the lack of off ball awareness of our midfielders. It looks ok when Matic plays because he knows when to drop deep and help the defence move it out of the back. none of our other midfielders know how to do this consistently.