That 1 man covering scholes is roy fecking keane though. A prime roy keane with beckham and giggs pinning their entire backline. And this is on the age where 442 is the norm. How many teams plays with 3 midfielder back then? Even we have to adapt post keane retirement
Pogba in a deeper role
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If he's quality which I think or I'm sure he is he will play and be good or brilliant in more than one position. He had good games in deeper role and close to goal also. In 'easier' games he's more than good enough in pair with Herrera. When we play with Carrick he's good close to the goal. It depends what Jose will ask from him.
He will be a modern, quality midfielder capable of playing in both positions if not some other, third position.
He will be a modern, quality midfielder capable of playing in both positions if not some other, third position.
I'm with Invictus, I really don't see Pogba deeper as getting the best out of his skill set. In fact his style of play is actually quite restrictive in that he doesn't create enough to have two workhorse defensive midfielders behind him like you could with a classic 10- you need a DLP and a defensive box-to-box. Ideally that would be some like Kante as box-to-box (I'm not sold on Herrera's defensive abilities though he could do a job there) and and Verratti as the DLP.
You didn't answer my question. Look at the stats over this season, look at both players performances. What does Kante offer that Herrera doesn't.
Scholes never won a PFA, guess he was never the best midfielder in England as his fellow pros couldn't recognise it. Neither has Aguero, guess he hasn't been the best striker in England over the last few seasons as his pros haven't acknowledged it.
I agree with Invictus. Pogba essentially is left mid attacking from deep.
I think we need a right side attacking mid to complement him, ie Keita of Leipzig often operates on the right of midfield. I'm not sure if Herrera can station behind them as anchor, but something like this would be perfect: ..
.............................................Paredes.....
........................Keita----------------------------------Pogba............
I think we need a right side attacking mid to complement him, ie Keita of Leipzig often operates on the right of midfield. I'm not sure if Herrera can station behind them as anchor, but something like this would be perfect: ..
.............................................Paredes.....
........................Keita----------------------------------Pogba............
Its funny that people keep mentioning kante as the perfect partner
Didn't that just not work for France? At all?
Didn't that just not work for France? At all?
He needs to play deep, thats his best position IMO. He thrives when he has that extra space and time to fully utlilize his exceptional passing range and strength. The game seems too fast for him at 10 and he never really looks comfortable there but in a deeper role he is very very good. We shouldnt play him at 10 just because he costed 86 million.
And I dont understand why posters want Kante so desperately? Our midfield has dominated most games pretty comfortably, it isnt the problem. Finishing off chances is the problem.
I remember few posters (I think French posters) saying Kante is the reason why French midfield is not functioning as good as it should, Kante was all over the place occupying places where Pogba and other midfielders thrive.
Have to admit, that metaphor made me laugh. Still, Pogba is not a surgeon knife and football is not a steak. Our problem this year has not been that we have been overrun in MF, our problem has been not scoring enoughAs i said, Pogba is only 23 and i don't think its unreasonable to expect him to get more comfortable in a MF 2 as he gains more experience. A change from 4-3-3 to 4-2-3-1 is not exactly huge. On defense both of them effective become 4-5-1 anyway, the only difference here is that Pogba is not the most advanced player in CM and instead of Carrick we have a Mata or Miki instead ahead of Pogba.
I was one of these posters said that during the EURO, I don't speak French though.
Kante is a #8, similar to Pogba. While on paper, Kante can be said as defensive #8 and can partner attacking #8 in Pogba in 2 men box to box midfield. The reality is both lack the position discipline in deep position, the defensive awareness to spot late off ball runner. Both in defensive phase more sucked into the action around the ball than reading the play.
At the beginning of the season, Conte played Kante deeper than Matic, and Chelsea didn't do so well until Conte first changed the system, second swapped the role of Matic and Kante. Kante was allowed to roam more and use his ability while Matic played deeper and in a more disciplined role.
There is still a possibility that Pogba playing with Kante in a same club would help developing their understanding and resulting in them workable together. However, as for how it is right now, it's a compromise for both players' best ability. Going into the market, it's not an ideal situation to be in. It's similar to the approach we did under LVG: buy players but try to develop them differently to their natural game to fit with manager's philosophy.
how about pogba partnering matic?
I think it would have more possibility to blend better. However, the no 10/ second forward would need to work harder in defensive phase as Pogba even though work hard, Kante workrate simply is on different level. With Kante (and partly the system with back 5), someone like Hazard was given more getaway in defensive duty.
Seem like Mourinho very keen on 2 men midfield in form of box to box midfielders. I see Fabinho as someone similar to former Arsenal player Gilberto Silva. That IMO would be a good partner for Pogba. Matic is keen on his play making too, so at times it may come into conflict with Pogba's willingness to keep the ball. Fabinho prefers to play it more simple and get it moving than thriving on the ball too much (not that he can't make play with the ball. It's simple about player's style).
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Don't see the problem with Pogba playing in a midfield 2 in games where you're clearly going to dominate the ball. What's the point of a pure DM against Watford/Burnley at home when they're not looking to attack at all?
Against the bigger teams and the harder away games I think Jose will go with a 3 in midfield because of Pogba's defensive drawbacks.
I think Jose's learned that against teams that are going to park the bus having the movement of Mkhi & Mata at 10 is vital.
Against the bigger teams and the harder away games I think Jose will go with a 3 in midfield because of Pogba's defensive drawbacks.
I think Jose's learned that against teams that are going to park the bus having the movement of Mkhi & Mata at 10 is vital.
Thought it was JP. It was spot on post.
Did Kante and Matic with Kante the deepest not work because Kante has poor positioning or because Matic is bad going forward?
I've always said he'll become a Paul Ince-esque box to box midfielder who can defend well, pass the ball about without effort and score 25 yarders with ease.
Kante positioning isn't great for me, hes much better pressing and seeking the ball.
Sure Jose's already talked about how he'd be a good centre back
Clearly positionally he is indisciplined, and I personally don't think he's good enough in the air, but there is something Ferdinandesque about him from time to time.Bailly-Pogba defensive pairing for 2017/18 anyone?
So basically like Herrera.
The problem I have with getting a player like Gilberto Silva is that you're asking him to sit, be solid and be the main passer, with Pogba providing all the energy. Pogba would be doing what Herrera was doing against Watford. Wouldn't that be a waste of his talents?
People keep saying this despite him creating so many chances for us from deep positions. Also he did get up and into the box a few times against Watford, infact he almost opened the scoring. Herrera sat, they are good at switching between the roles tbh
It's not that he's playing in a deep position, it's what his role is. I think it's a little hard to play a considered, passing game when you're the team's main worker.
Hes certainly not the main worker/engine in the midfield, that would be Herrera.
Spot on, this obsession with Kante and his type of CM is weird in relation to getting the best out of Pogba. I keep reading "Lets get a destroyer instead of a Carrick type" when in truth that wont help Pogba at all, he needs a calm presence next to him that will read the game and provide a safety net for his attacking excursions.
Whatever floats your boat. I am not here to answer anything to you. Anyone who had watched Kante over the last year and half will now who is the better player between him and Herrera
No, but he would be if you had someone more disciplined next to him. Or so it seems to me.
Then why engage in discussion with me? This is a platform for discussion, you made a point which I disagreed with so I asked you to explain it. Why bother posting and wasting my time if you were just going to dismiss the conversation when pressed for justification of your opinion and run away, hiding behind a childish quip.
I lived in Leicester last season and volunteered at the king power throughout the season and got to watch Kante live, pitch side. He was no doubt the engine for Leicester but he wasn't their sole reason for winning the premier league, as he isn't the sole reason for Chelsea being top now. Everything Vardy hit seemed to hit the back of the net, Mahrez was sensational and Huth - Morgan were solid at the back. Chelsea's shift in formation has got them solid at the back, average players like alonso and moses are performing great, matic is a fantastic holding midfielder, Hazard has been exceptional, Fabregas has done a great job when called upon and Costa started the season fantastically despite the recent drop off.
Having watched every united game this season, yes the job Herrera does defensively is comparable to Kante but Herrera conversely offers a lot more going forward.
I get reasoning opinions is an alien abstract to you, evidently. But here are my justifications anyway.
Don't reply to anymore of my posts in the future if you're just going to waste my time.
I'm with @Cassidy there: Pogba is the main passer in that partnership and Herrera the energetic runner. Although both play a similar amount of passes when in a midfield two, Pogba has more responsibility in terms of structure and creativity, while Herrera provides more defensive presence. (On the ground, that is; Pogba has much better aerial presence.)
The defensive averages over the last two games (Utd with a double pivot) make that last point pretty clear:
Tackles made (attempted)------------Pogba 2 (4,5) - Herrera 6,5 (8)
Interceptions:---------------------------Pogba 1,5 - Herrera 1,5
Blocks:------------------------------------Pogba 2,5 - Herrera 2,5
Clearances:------------------------------Pogba 3 - Herrera 2,5
Aerials won/total:-----------------------Pogba 4,5 - Herrera 1
All in all, both are pretty versatile CMs and they complement each other nicely in my opinion.
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I know. What I'm saying is that if you put someone in there like Weigl, Pogba would take on Herrera's role. Which perhaps isn't the way to get the best out of him.
I won't disagree. However, some are saying that a No. 6 is need alongside him.
Ah, got it now. Completely agree here, someone like Weigl would work best in Carrick's role in a midfield three with Pogba at LCM. In a midfield 2, Herrera is probably the better choice.
If it means Mkhi plays as a 10 I don't mind if he sits a little deeper.
Playing deep doesn't mean being defensive. Pogba can sit in front of the back four and spray passes all day long. He can start in front of the back four and go box-to-box. He could even come deep when he wants, and then get beyond the striker to score goals. He has many talents and using him in any given role isn't going to limit him to any degree.
Whether he has a Carrick-type or a destroyer-type as the defensive player, it doesn't matter. Anything works as long as the players are good enough.
I don't know if a lot of the comments are from younger supporters, but a lot of the chat seems overly technical. Football isn't all that complicated. It's good, though, that a lot of the perceived wisdom regarding Pogba is being picked apart.
It's not necessarily about formations, in any event, it's about where the ball goes and getting players on it who can do what's required in an attacking sense. Especially when you're dominating a team, which we mostly do. Do people really think Utd need two defensive midfielders?
Oh, and we do have a back four.
Whether he has a Carrick-type or a destroyer-type as the defensive player, it doesn't matter. Anything works as long as the players are good enough.
I don't know if a lot of the comments are from younger supporters, but a lot of the chat seems overly technical. Football isn't all that complicated. It's good, though, that a lot of the perceived wisdom regarding Pogba is being picked apart.
It's not necessarily about formations, in any event, it's about where the ball goes and getting players on it who can do what's required in an attacking sense. Especially when you're dominating a team, which we mostly do. Do people really think Utd need two defensive midfielders?
Oh, and we do have a back four.
Does Pogba necessarily need a fixed position? I don't mind him moving from CM at home to LAM away from home as long as he is effective and the team wins games.
Maybe one day he will settle into one or the other but right now happy to just see him play well and feel comfortable.
Maybe one day he will settle into one or the other but right now happy to just see him play well and feel comfortable.
Yaya Toure of 13-14 season is the ideal pattern. He was a tank in City's two central midfielders formation. Pogba surely has all potential to become a complete B2B player as same class as Toure 13-14 was, he now just needs to improve his defensive part for more stability
A few thoughts:
1. Rashford is not a wide player. He is a CF who should be used as an understudy for Zlatan.
2. Rooney should not even be in this discussion and Lingard is a squad player at best.
Therefore only Martial, Mkhitaryan Mata are really competing for the wide positions. Mata is not fast enough so that leaves only Martial and Micky on each side.
I think Pogba starting in a deeper role when we're in possession works well. When he's too far up the pitch, teams press him quickly in numbers and stifle him. In the deeper position, he has the extra time and space to pick a pass. If the other team stands off him, he can move quickly forward with the ball into a more dangerous position. If they send only one player to press him, he has the ability to get pass that player. If they send more forward, they risk losing their defensive shape and open spaces for our other players.
The thing about Pogba is he has so many tools and options from that deeper position, all of which can test the other teams defence in different ways. That's priceless.
He does not need to learn to be a better defender, that's not what we bought him for. Playing deeper doesn't automatically mean more defensive responsibiities. Sure, he's more than capable of helping out when needed, but it's Herrera and the other midfielder who need to do that more. I for one think that Herrera is doing a terrific job. We are just one versatile midfielder short of a truly world class midfield trio, and I don't see us needing a Carrick-type player anymore.
The thing about Pogba is he has so many tools and options from that deeper position, all of which can test the other teams defence in different ways. That's priceless.
He does not need to learn to be a better defender, that's not what we bought him for. Playing deeper doesn't automatically mean more defensive responsibiities. Sure, he's more than capable of helping out when needed, but it's Herrera and the other midfielder who need to do that more. I for one think that Herrera is doing a terrific job. We are just one versatile midfielder short of a truly world class midfield trio, and I don't see us needing a Carrick-type player anymore.
1. Mata starts most games for us on the right and is very good there.
2. Like it or not, Rashford is going to see most of his playing time out wide with some starts there and alot of appearances as an impact sub. He'll also get the odd game up front when Ibra is rested, which rightly isn't very often as Ibra is on fire and scoring goals for fun.
Paul Pogba is a fantastic player but on the last part of the pitch (last fifth) he is not particular good. Not an attacking player in my opinion.
He was poor today but on other occasions he has also been very good in the final fifth (has anyone ever broken the pitch into 5th's by the way?)
In my opinion he is a poor finisher and he is poor at timing runs into the box. He is an okey playmaker, but mostly from a deeper position. He does not find solutions higher in the pitch the same way as Ozil, Xavi in his prime or even Mata or Mhiki.