[Stretford End Phil]

difficult to rebutt what you say. All I will advice is patience. All the rumblings are he will be gone in the summer. I have become numb like so many. It does not hurt so much any more. But that does not mean I do not care. I think that is teh same with you and many others.

Keep the Faith mate.

Numbness. These 2 years have been worse than the Sexton and O'Farell years combined. Moyes could be forgiven for accepting a challenge way above his pay scale and ending up like a rabbit in the headlights. BUT LVG actually believes he is dispensing goodness and cannot understand why we dont rate and hail him. Imagine just how much Prozac you need to see his world view of great football. I have great faith in football but my deep down my concern used to be: why do I look forward and enjoy watching Leicester for 90 minutes but fall asleep with the the Reds - today its no longer a conundrum!!

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Certainly not my thing, just find it strange that only negative stats get raised, mainly to try support a weak argument. We have people constantly raising goals scored stats and comparing them to clubs lower than us. Scoring goals is obviously working for them then. We also get the 'we cant beat the teams in the relegation area, but ignore the record against those in the top half of the table.
There seems to be a general view that LVG is 100% the cause of all of United's poor performances, yet again ignoring the contribution of the players. In his post match, he pretty much made it clear that the team had trained to play at pace, yet the same players as always slowed the game down.
The performance was poor, and United have not met any of our expectations over the season, but imo it is not all down to LVG.

I'd honestly take what he says with a pinch of salt really. I reckon he has a few canned excuses ready to go if certain things happen during the game and the questions start to gravitate towards it.

You are correct in saying that the players are to be attributed with a portion of the blame but the players can only play in their managers image. I mean, doesn't it scare you that one of Van Gaal's responses to a tactical switch was that "he had to make a sub to get more running in behind" I mean, that wasn't taking a player from somewhere else and adding "running in behind" to the mix, it was physically subbing a like for like player to get "more running in behind". To me that is pretty alarming.

I honestly really want to see what goes on in their training sessions. I am close to being convinced that they are training for single sets of instructions to be carried out on the pitch under his instructions. Why else would you have to change a player to change something that doesn't fit the physical construct of the team? Why couldn't you allow Rashford to run in behind, why couldn't you inform players that the system was moving to allow for that and to play for it?...

Or he could have told a big fib. Either way, it doesn't paint a picture that says he doesn't obsessively tell the players how to play and then reward them for playing how they play (ultimately shite to watch for the fans). He seems very negative and possibly even paranoid of losing. The fans won't care if we lose and we're giving 110%, I am sure everyone will be happy to say well look we're giving it our all and we're just not good enough. But I can't name one game or one player from this season where I've seen them go through 90 minutes of hell for leather just to win a game for the club. Fellaini? Martial? That is very un-MUFC to see such a lack of passion in my opinion.

 

[TwoSheds]

Surely he just meant that Rashford was tired and Martial would therefore have more joy running in behind?

 

[Sunny Jim]

Ive just watched the highlights...so many empty seats...

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Surely he just meant that Rashford was tired and Martial would therefore have more joy running in behind?

Young, you mean?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

I hate football at the moment. I'm just waiting for next season and hoping against hope that it's better than what we have been served up for the last 3 seasons.

At times, I don't understand why I watch football, any more! I can't remember what was so entertaining about the sport.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Ive just watched the highlights...so many empty seats...

Atmosphere was horrible, fans didnt turn it up. Afterwards there was no one talking up beat about any of it except Rashford. Match of the day avoided another mocking session and all forums are solid in their criticism.

 

[Red Dreams]

Numbness. These 2 years have been worse than the Sexton and O'Farell years combined. Moyes could be forgiven for accepting a challenge way above his pay scale and ending up like a rabbit in the headlights. BUT LVG actually believes he is dispensing goodness and cannot understand why we dont rate and hail him. Imagine just how much Prozac you need to see his world view of great football. I have great faith in football but my deep down my concern used to be: why do I look forward and enjoy watching Leicester for 90 minutes but fall asleep with the the Reds - today its no longer a conundrum!!

I want us to win all of our remaining matches.

The players owe our supporters that.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

I want us to win all of our remaining matches.

The players owe our supporters that.

I have never wanted us to lose, so I agree with you. I think the club owes us a lot and not just in patience.

 

[Red Dreams]

I have never wanted us to lose, so I agree with you. I think the club owes us a lot and not just in patience.

all this garbage about rolling over for kin Leicester. Want us to twat them. Though with van Gaal...thats not likely. Still beat them.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

When I wrote about enjoying watching Leicester, it was a comment about entertainment not becoming a rancid fox. I want to see entertainment not battling to waste time with 5 minutes to go against Villa and a 1-0.

 

[Red Dreams]

When I wrote about enjoying watching Leicester, it was a comment about entertainment not becoming a rancid fox. I want to see entertainment not battling to waste time with 5 minutes to go against Villa and a 1-0.

imagine that wasting time at home against a side being relegated.

the depths to which we have sunk.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

imagine that wasting time at home against a side being relegated.

the depths to which we have sunk.

Precisely, and thats why I freely talk about watching Leicester, and that for me is more of an insult than calling LVG a tosser.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

But I can't name one game or one player from this season where I've seen them go through 90 minutes of hell for leather just to win a game for the club. Fellaini? Martial? That is very un-MUFC to see such a lack of passion in my opinion.

Totally agree. Said all along, that LVG does not seem to have the knack to identify players that will give their everything in a game. Blame LVG for whatever, but a player that wants to win, will chase back, put in tackles, hassle, always look to get ahead of their opponent, and so on. Just seen all those qualities in the Leicester game, down to 10 men and still going for it. A lot of that is down to the players.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

You gotta be on a wind up, if you think us playing crap isn't a direct consequence of his "straightjacket" football, like I say if you are a fan of LVG or think he's doing a good job,let's just agree to disagree, he's ruining the club I love with his negative football.

If it is a rigid straight jacket appoach, how would that explain the inconsistencies in United's performance. This is what I mean by weak arguments. Surely, LVG is so stuck in his ways that he will only play one way. Therefore, if two different players play in the same position and produce different levels of performances, it must be down to the player or the opposition. The tactics, philosophy ...etc is all rigid, so it cant be just LVG.

I do not think that you will find many of my posts, if any at all, claiming he is doing a great job, United are playing wonderful entertaining football ..etc, but you will find posts that will challenge the 2+2=5 critique from so many posters. It seems if we play well, it is despite LVG, if we play poorly it is because of LVG, not really balance views there, just posters taking a view to bash LVG for any rason. Seems the analysis is as poor as the lazy journalism we read.

 

[sunama]

Totally agree. Said all along, that LVG does not seem to have the knack to identify players that will give their everything in a game. Blame LVG for whatever, but a player that wants to win, will chase back, put in tackles, hassle, always look to get ahead of their opponent, and so on. Just seen all those qualities in the Leicester game, down to 10 men and still going for it. A lot of that is down to the players.

I was going to say exactly the same thing.
LCFC today, lost their tallisman who is arguably their best player - Vardy.
Down to 10 men, down 2-1, in the 93rd minute, they fight and score a goal, to get a draw.

LVG's MUFC would be incapable of doing this. Its about having fight and team spirit, which we do not posses (or it has been Vangled out of all our players).
No emotion.
No excitement.
Predictable: score 1 goal, keep a clean sheet and collect 3 points.
If opponent scores 1 goal we accept the draw.
If opponent scores 2 or more, we accept defeat (even with 70 minutes left to play, remember the Arsenal game?)

 

[sunama]

imagine that wasting time at home against a side being relegated.
the depths to which we have sunk.

LVG would almost certainly have instructed his players to do this.

 

[sunama]

It seems if we play well, it is despite LVG, if we play poorly it is because of LVG, not really balance views there, just posters taking a view to bash LVG for any rason. Seems the analysis is as poor as the lazy journalism we read.

I can't speak for everybody here, only myself.

After the WHU win, there were times during the game where I felt we had 1 or 2 extra players on the pitch.
We were absolutely dominating WHU, which was fantastic and I enjoyed the first 70-odd minutes.
I put that down to LVG's tactics.
If we could play like that for 75% of our games, I genuinely believe we would be league champions by a big margin.

The problem is that we pull out a performance like that once every 15-20 games, which isn't good enough.
And lets not forget the bigger picture: we are 5th place in the league and seem to have decided that the 4th place trophy is our target.
None of this is good enough I put the blame squarely on LVG (the assistant manager, players and coaching staff also take blame, but to a lesser extent).

 

[The Brown Bull]

Woeful.

 

[Mal donaghy]

If it is a rigid straight jacket appoach, how would that explain the inconsistencies in United's performance. This is what I mean by weak arguments. Surely, LVG is so stuck in his ways that he will only play one way. Therefore, if two different players play in the same position and produce different levels of performances, it must be down to the player or the opposition. The tactics, philosophy ...etc is all rigid, so it cant be just LVG.

I do not think that you will find many of my posts, if any at all, claiming he is doing a great job, United are playing wonderful entertaining football ..etc, but you will find posts that will challenge the 2+2=5 critique from so many posters. It seems if we play well, it is despite LVG, if we play poorly it is because of LVG, not really balance views there, just posters taking a view to bash LVG for any rason. Seems the analysis is as poor as the lazy journalism we read.

We don't play well, it has been like watching paint dry I used to stand on the paddock with my dad in the seventies and this is the worst ive known it, what is so weak about what I'm saying there, I ain't no friggin sheep, I ain't no Einstein, but equally I'm not unintelligent enough not to have my own opinion, what your doing is playing Devils Advocate.

Look the statistics back up my argument, I'm too lazy to bring every single one to the afore, so if you want to be anal look it up yourself, he's a shockingly bad manager, who has taken our club backwards, during his tenure I can think of a block of Four games were we looked good, last year Spurs, city, Liverpool, AVilla apart from that it has been mind numbing, All LVG 's doing.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

We don't play well, it has been like watching paint dry I used to stand on the paddock with my dad in the seventies and this is the worst ive known it, what is so weak about what I'm saying there, I ain't no friggin sheep, I ain't no Einstein, but equally I'm not unintelligent enough not to have my own opinion, what your doing is playing Devils Advocate.

Look the statistics back up my argument, I'm too lazy to bring every single one to the afore, so if you want to be anal look it up yourself, he's a shockingly bad manager, who has taken our club backwards, during his tenure I can think of a block of Four games were we looked good, last year Spurs, city, Liverpool, AVilla apart from that it has been mind numbing, All LVG 's doing.

Your taking a different opinion as some sort of attack on you.

Making a point that we have scored less or the same as Bournemouth is a pretty weak way to attack LVG, when Bournemouth don't have the points tally of United. Its like saying City have scored a massive 21 more goals and gained 4 more points. So is there any correlation to goals scored and points gained. They are just pointless statistics, like most of them used to attack LVG. The only statistics that counts is we are 5th and 4 points behind Arsenal and City.

Your opinion that we don't play well and it has been like watching paint dry is accepted by just about 100% of posters. I agree with your view, that doesn't mean I can't have a different opinion about the cause of the performances without being called a WUM.

 

[Mal donaghy]

Your taking a different opinion as some sort of attack on you.

Making a point that we have scored less or the same as Bournemouth is a pretty weak way to attack LVG, when Bournemouth don't have the points tally of United. Its like saying City have scored a massive 21 more goals and gained 4 more points. So is there any correlation to goals scored and points gained. They are just pointless statistics, like most of them used to attack LVG. The only statistics that counts is we are 5th and 4 points behind Arsenal and City.

Your opinion that we don't play well and it has been like watching paint dry is accepted by just about 100% of posters. I agree with your view, that doesn't mean I can't have a different opinion about the cause of the performances without being called a WUM.

Salfordred , look mate life's too short, I can't stand VanGall for obvious reasons, you don't dislike him, and I think I'm right in saying to you he is absolved of any blame for our current plight, you know, Uniteds lowest goals scored ever in the premier leagues history, and playing not to get beat, instead of the play to win ethos instilled in us since the days of Sir Matt, so I say to you go forth and spread your message to all who will listen, like I say life's to short.

And I get you have your opinion, opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one, but from time to time you get one that is full of sh1te and stinks, like I say, you have your opinion.

 

[Perrick Dubois]

Totally agree. Said all along, that LVG does not seem to have the knack to identify players that will give their everything in a game. Blame LVG for whatever, but a player that wants to win, will chase back, put in tackles, hassle, always look to get ahead of their opponent, and so on. Just seen all those qualities in the Leicester game, down to 10 men and still going for it. A lot of that is down to the players.

I honestly don't see "the scrap" that we as a club are known for as part of the whole game plan. He has always spoken about "intellegence" and "making the right play at the right time". I genuinely think he wants his players to be perfect robots and in the EPL you can't play like that. Like a Karate tournament where people start throwing pint glasses and swinging at you with pool cues. The tournament referee is saying "fair game" and we're standing around complaining that it should not in the rules instead of trying to fight back. We know the rules can be broken but we continue to try and use rigid moves and win but it isn't working.

I don't really think a lot of it is "down to the players", I think they are being instructed to do certain things that don't fit with the general landscape of winning matches in the PL.

 

[golden_blunder]

when its one or 2 players playing (to be polite) naff, then its the players. When its the whole team. over an entire season, its systematic and boils down to the coaching team.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Totally agree. Said all along, that LVG does not seem to have the knack to identify players that will give their everything in a game. Blame LVG for whatever, but a player that wants to win, will chase back, put in tackles, hassle, always look to get ahead of their opponent, and so on. Just seen all those qualities in the Leicester game, down to 10 men and still going for it. A lot of that is down to the players.

If it is a rigid straight jacket appoach, how would that explain the inconsistencies in United's performance. This is what I mean by weak arguments. Surely, LVG is so stuck in his ways that he will only play one way. Therefore, if two different players play in the same position and produce different levels of performances, it must be down to the player or the opposition. The tactics, philosophy ...etc is all rigid, so it cant be just LVG.

I do not think that you will find many of my posts, if any at all, claiming he is doing a great job, United are playing wonderful entertaining football ..etc, but you will find posts that will challenge the 2+2=5 critique from so many posters. It seems if we play well, it is despite LVG, if we play poorly it is because of LVG, not really balance views there, just posters taking a view to bash LVG for any rason. Seems the analysis is as poor as the lazy journalism we read.

Salfordred , look mate life's too short, I can't stand VanGall for obvious reasons, you don't dislike him, and I think I'm right in saying to you he is absolved of any blame for our current plight, you know, Uniteds lowest goals scored ever in the premier leagues history, and playing not to get beat, instead of the play to win ethos instilled in us since the days of Sir Matt, so I say to you go forth and spread your message to all who will listen, like I say life's to short.

And I get you have your opinion, opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one, but from time to time you get one that is full of sh1te and stinks, like I say, you have your opinion.

I think a lot of posters criticise you without reading your content first. Your comments are interesting and I for one would go along with most of what you write and have written. Even though my dislike for LVG verges on virulence, there is no denying he has generated a few good performances. But across 2 seasons its not been good and the quality against Villa was woeful. Nothing irritated me more than the keep ball in the last five minutes, because it was borne out of desperation rather than confidence.

If I was to point to a major cause of out problems its not just LVG per se but the culture he is generating. We are moving and have moved so far from what was in just three seasons that we now look like a pale shadow. I dont really get why we have three signifcant figures who represent our old cavaliar ways (Giggs, Fergie and Charlton) appearing to suck up to this dreadful quality of football. I am mindful that the same thing happened to Bayern until the LVG spell broke and suddenly football was restored.

We do need players of character, as well as a restoration of 'our' kind of football. If LCFC can reproduce it on 10 bob I dont see why mighty MUFC with its superior pool of resources cant out do them and everyone else. Long term, I think our post-Fergie years will be seen in the same sad context as the post-Busby and post-Doc years.

 

[Mal donaghy]

I think a lot of posters criticise you without reading your content first. Your comments are interesting and I for one would go along with most of what you write and have written. Even though my dislike for LVG verges on virulence, there is no denying he has generated a few good performances. But across 2 seasons its not been good and the quality against Villa was woeful. Nothing irritated me more than the keep ball in the last five minutes, because it was borne out of desperation rather than confidence.

If I was to point to a major cause of out problems its not just LVG per se but the culture he is generating. We are moving and have moved so far from what was in just three seasons that we now look like a pale shadow. I dont really get why we have three signifcant figures who represent our old cavaliar ways (Giggs, Fergie and Charlton) appearing to suck up to this dreadful quality of football. I am mindful that the same thing happened to Bayern until the LVG spell broke and suddenly football was restored.

We do need players of character, as well as a restoration of 'our' kind of football. If LCFC can reproduce it on 10 bob I dont see why mighty MUFC with its superior pool of resources cant out do them and everyone else. Long term, I think our post-Fergie years will be seen in the same sad context as the post-Busby and post-Doc years.

brilliant.
Wow one person agrees !!
Woopy doo

 

[iKeano]

Numbness. These 2 years have been worse than the Sexton and O'Farell years combined. Moyes could be forgiven for accepting a challenge way above his pay scale and ending up like a rabbit in the headlights. BUT LVG actually believes he is dispensing goodness and cannot understand why we dont rate and hail him. Imagine just how much Prozac you need to see his world view of great football. I have great faith in football but my deep down my concern used to be: why do I look forward and enjoy watching Leicester for 90 minutes but fall asleep with the the Reds - today its no longer a conundrum!!

The deluded fool thinks we do rate him! He walks towards the tunnel only lifting his oversized cranium when he gets to the 'family & friends' section. Hardly going to have any of them berating him considering he's keeping them in riches.
Then he spouts dribble about how "the fans were singing".... we sing 'cause we're Utd... NOT 'cause of LVG.

Totally agree with you on the last 5 minutes wasting time, totally disgraceful. At home to the worst team in the league, embarrassingly protecting a narrow 1-0 lead. Villa were as bad a team as I've seen at OT all year and we still couldn't put them away. Story of Luis' rancid tenure. Totally untenable & unforgivable of the board if they're even entertaining the thought of keeping this charlatan on as manager.

 

[Fener1907]

A high scoring win and I assumed the animosity and willingness to see him gone would be alleviated. We couldn't even emphatically beat a side containing a player whose attitude was that he just wanted to get relegation over with and go for a few pints.

Wins at this point just seem like putting a flower in a piece of shit to make it look a bit nicer.

 

[SalfordRed1960]

Nothing irritated me more than the keep ball in the last five minutes, because it was borne out of desperation rather than confidence.

Totally agree on that. Maybe, I am just an old git that remembers the days when players put in loads of effort to win, even if they were not as accomplished as the opposition. This lack of going for the win, is just alien to me. Even as a player (not a very good one I may say) I would not time waste or play the game out.

I think the debate is always, is that behaviour institutionalized by the coaches and manager OR is this something that players do unilaterally as they think is the right thing to do. I coach my players to think (it is them on the pitch, they have to react to what is happening on it) so I tend to believe if that is someone's philosophy they won't give so much instruction, in training you just point out the mistakes that occur through lack of thought. That should not make players robots.

That all said, I am looking forward to the day, that United put in some consistent, entertaining football with bags of effort.

 

[Stretford End Phil]

Totally agree on that. Maybe, I am just an old git that remembers the days when players put in loads of effort to win, even if they were not as accomplished as the opposition. This lack of going for the win, is just alien to me. Even as a player (not a very good one I may say) I would not time waste or play the game out.

I think the debate is always, is that behaviour institutionalized by the coaches and manager OR is this something that players do unilaterally as they think is the right thing to do. I coach my players to think (it is them on the pitch, they have to react to what is happening on it) so I tend to believe if that is someone's philosophy they won't give so much instruction, in training you just point out the mistakes that occur through lack of thought. That should not make players robots.

That all said, I am looking forward to the day, that United put in some consistent, entertaining football with bags of effort.

Age is irrelevant, I can still recall my first 'official' football lesson with the opening - 'it only takes 13 seconds to score a goal so you must play to the final whistle.' Leicester almost proved that maxim in the dying seconds against WHU, and we won in 1999 when Bayern assumed it was all over with a few minutes on the clock. Saturday got to me, and it still rankles.

The team that Fergie bequeathed his successors played hard to the final whistle. I dont know where this present attitude comes from but I dont recall Butt or Giggs being allowed to waiver from Fergie's discipline. LVG projects his pseudo science about football while sat on his arse with chalk and slate. Its all become a bit like Nero and his fiddle - the fundamentals are all at sea while our reputation burns. LVG has had his moments, good and bad, but across two seasons I now believe we have digressed from our traditions, culture, and even player attitudes. He has stripped the team down to children with a few veterans, and erected a squad that is plain and toothless. The routine but boring 1-0 win has become our signature, in effect he has turned us into a pale version of Arsenal from tne 1970s.

 

[gerdm07]

During the first few weeks of the season I wrote here that I thought LvG would use 2 DMs against tougher teams and 1 DM against weaker opponents, especially at home. I was wrong. We set up with 2 DMs vs AV at home. This boggles my mind as you would think our manager would setup to to attack and score 2 or 3 against the weakest team in the BPL.

The 2 DMs and the fact we use 2 touches or more in midfield are the two main reasons we lack a flowing attack. This is all on LvG and why he should be let go regardless if we win the FA Cup.

 

[cyberman]

Dont know where to put this but Stan Collymore just said he and Yorke are the two best players Villa have had in the Premier League era..
This relegation has melted his head

 

[buckooo1978]

Dont know where to put this but Stan Collymore just said he and Yorke are the two best players Villa have had in the Premier League era..
This relegation has melted his head

Collymore is an absolute cockbag

talk about an over-opinionated prat with a massively inflated view of himself

having all these spats with players when he couldn't conduct himself with professionalism during his career

 

[roseguy64]

http://sports.opera.com/?sport=news&page=news&view=article&news_id=767189&localization_id=www

The man is aware of the problem. Maybe he asks too much of these players.

He's always been aware of the problem. You'll find quotes from him throughout the season saying stuff that people on here have said.

 

[Spoony]

Collymore is an absolute cockbag

talk about an over-opinionated prat with a massively inflated view of himself

having all these spats with players when he couldn't conduct himself with professionalism during his career

Indeed. Proper waster and to think I preferred him to Cole...many moons ago.