One of the best games of the season, unlucky to get Mourinio'd. Gives me hope for next year though!
PL L FA Premier League
Chelsea 1:0 Manchester United
Post-match discussion
Sat, 18 April 2015
- Status
Still on a bit of a downer over this. We just had to be facing City and Chelsea back to back again. I just hope that we can remain confident and do our job at Everton now.
That was such a depressing loss against Chelsea. Have not seen United dominate a team like we did for a long, long time, especially against the league leaders. We managed to do that with some injury issues as well. I have enjoyed the football being played on the pitch over the last few games, but we need to get some players with a cutting edge this summer. Hazard showed exactly what we are missing with his pace, movement and finishing.
As happy as I was from how we played, I still find this a frustrating result. I think we should've gotten at least a draw and made no serious mistakes outside of Hazard's goal and the idiotic pass by Herrera that nearly led to a second.
I think this game establishes us as top contenders for the title next season and highlights what still needs fixing in the summer. IMO the main reasons why we lost this game is because we were too restricted to the left in our buildup and because we didn't have Rooney (i.e. a reliable striker) to create something up front.
As has happened too much in the last few games, all of our attacking traffic came from the left with Young and (this time) Shaw, whereas Valencia looked totally uninterested in trying 1 v. 1 against Chelsea on the right. As the first half wore on, Chelsea became assured that Valencia would do nothing outside of back pass and began to jam up the left, leaving Young with much less space to work with. Over the summer, we should find a top quality winger/RB who can stretch opponents across the width of the pitch and serve as a more productive link with Mata and Herrera.
Falcao IMO was once again poor and has shown nothing in my eyes for him to deserve signing with us. Granting that he didn't get a lot of service, he was still wasteful whenever he had the ball and continues to show poor balance and decision making. I see no light at the end of the tunnel for him and I look forward to seeing Rooney back as striker. A striker should also be signed after the season ends since I think it would be too risky depending on just Rooney, RVP (if he stays), and Wilson. I have my suspicions that we're going to sign Falcao based on this game, but I will save that for another thread.
Outside of that, I thought we were mostly very good. Herrera and Mata circulated well and the backline looked assured. We looked quite confident in working the middle areas even though Carrick and Blind weren't available. I thought McNair was great considering his lack of experience. Smalling also didn't put a foot wrong. I do think Fellaini was pushed off the ball easily and a tad disappointing but it was no worse than an average performance.
I would give us a 6 out of 10 overall, verging on 7.
I think this game establishes us as top contenders for the title next season and highlights what still needs fixing in the summer. IMO the main reasons why we lost this game is because we were too restricted to the left in our buildup and because we didn't have Rooney (i.e. a reliable striker) to create something up front.
As has happened too much in the last few games, all of our attacking traffic came from the left with Young and (this time) Shaw, whereas Valencia looked totally uninterested in trying 1 v. 1 against Chelsea on the right. As the first half wore on, Chelsea became assured that Valencia would do nothing outside of back pass and began to jam up the left, leaving Young with much less space to work with. Over the summer, we should find a top quality winger/RB who can stretch opponents across the width of the pitch and serve as a more productive link with Mata and Herrera.
Falcao IMO was once again poor and has shown nothing in my eyes for him to deserve signing with us. Granting that he didn't get a lot of service, he was still wasteful whenever he had the ball and continues to show poor balance and decision making. I see no light at the end of the tunnel for him and I look forward to seeing Rooney back as striker. A striker should also be signed after the season ends since I think it would be too risky depending on just Rooney, RVP (if he stays), and Wilson. I have my suspicions that we're going to sign Falcao based on this game, but I will save that for another thread.
Outside of that, I thought we were mostly very good. Herrera and Mata circulated well and the backline looked assured. We looked quite confident in working the middle areas even though Carrick and Blind weren't available. I thought McNair was great considering his lack of experience. Smalling also didn't put a foot wrong. I do think Fellaini was pushed off the ball easily and a tad disappointing but it was no worse than an average performance.
I would give us a 6 out of 10 overall, verging on 7.
They had Hazard playing as a forward. We had Rooney playing as a midfielder. That was the difference between the two sides.
If we're going to play a possession game where our defenders push forward and our attackers drop back, we're inevitably going to congest the middle third and be less of a threat in the box. Yes, we dominated them. But we did so in all the wrong areas.
The best tiki-taka teams have always had magical players up front and on the wing to make things happen. Yesterday, we had Young and Falcao as our two most advanced players, since Mata was basically playing in midfield. If LvG is going to persist with this system, he needs to put his most special players as high up the pitch as possible. I know that wasn't possible on Saturday but I think that's why we failed to get on the scoresheet. Not enough players in the box and not enough moments of inspiration in dangerous areas.
A couple of astute purchases in the Summer and I think we'll be unstoppable next season.
If we're going to play a possession game where our defenders push forward and our attackers drop back, we're inevitably going to congest the middle third and be less of a threat in the box. Yes, we dominated them. But we did so in all the wrong areas.
The best tiki-taka teams have always had magical players up front and on the wing to make things happen. Yesterday, we had Young and Falcao as our two most advanced players, since Mata was basically playing in midfield. If LvG is going to persist with this system, he needs to put his most special players as high up the pitch as possible. I know that wasn't possible on Saturday but I think that's why we failed to get on the scoresheet. Not enough players in the box and not enough moments of inspiration in dangerous areas.
A couple of astute purchases in the Summer and I think we'll be unstoppable next season.
Though we played well given the circumstances.
Both holding midfielders gone and a young CB with Rooney in midfield and a useless Falcao on top.
Chelsea played the game they way the wanted it. Zouma was great and matic is one of the best in the league.
We had the ball alot, and they waited for the counter. Say what you want about Mou and his tacticts, but that was the smartest way to play us right now. They got the win and all credit to them.
Still good game from us. Herrera was great in the first half imo, and Paddy did well. Shaw was also good and i think he should be our first choice LB.
Some worrying things, like Falcao beeing totaly useless and Young actually looks like a much better alternative than Di Maria. Still thinks Angel will be amazing for us if he stays the next season also, but he needs to be used CM.
Like :
--------Carrick-----------
-Herrera---Di Maria-----
Think we will trash Everton next.
Both holding midfielders gone and a young CB with Rooney in midfield and a useless Falcao on top.
Chelsea played the game they way the wanted it. Zouma was great and matic is one of the best in the league.
We had the ball alot, and they waited for the counter. Say what you want about Mou and his tacticts, but that was the smartest way to play us right now. They got the win and all credit to them.
Still good game from us. Herrera was great in the first half imo, and Paddy did well. Shaw was also good and i think he should be our first choice LB.
Some worrying things, like Falcao beeing totaly useless and Young actually looks like a much better alternative than Di Maria. Still thinks Angel will be amazing for us if he stays the next season also, but he needs to be used CM.
Like :
--------Carrick-----------
-Herrera---Di Maria-----
Think we will trash Everton next.
Wow... you're as harsh as harsh ca be! You seem to indicate that Mourinho is far better than Van Gaal. On head to head's you can have an argument, but if one were to see how we've fared against the top four sides, we've done better than Chelsea. So in effect, Van Gaal should have more "Class and Ability" than Mourinho?
People need to get a grip around here. Some of the comments are akin to that of some wishy-washy children who are struggling with puberty.
Let's be logical.
- We played the system with a team that's never been played in that particular set up.
- Without Carrick and Blind, you see that we are more vulnerable at the back and less effective circulating the ball.
- We weren't able to capitalise on the chances created. We created a fair few. People need to go watch the match again.
- This was not the team that smashed the previous 6 opponents. A sudden last minute change can create doubt in our play, and that was evident going forward.
- Despite all this, we restricted them two moments. Which is an achievement.
Now ask yourselves this. If the team plays like this from game 1 next season, with more quality in the team and more depth, wouldn't be logical that we would have a bigger impact than what we saw on Saturday? We had to move our best striker to midfield and play another who just doesn't seem to fit in England. Without the injuries, I am confident that we would have had far more chances than what we saw.
Take all the points in view next time and think - Are we getting better? Yes. Are we perfect? No. Do we Need players? Yes. Can we win at Stamford Bridge next year? Yes! Of course, results can go both ways, but we can fight these boys now. We can stand up to the big leagues with our own football.
Watching us dominate Liverpool at Anfield, after they had been on an unbeaten run is the stuff of potential champions. It means that the football is effective. When we perfect it and when we buy the right players, we'll be far superior to what we've been so far.
I've never felt that good after a defeat. The quality of our passing and ball movement was superb. Paddy bringing it up into midfield, looked really classy. Shaw showing that this lad has the potential to be world class. The philosophy is there for all to see. This style is perfect for Europe too. What we need is slightly more quality in key positions. We also need the jewel in the crown that when games are tight, can change it with a moment of brilliance. ADM will make the assists but a Bale would be on another level....
I love the 'this game proved Mourinho is better than LVG' posts.
One game in which they scored one goal and we dominated posession and dominated them overall proves that?
If one of our chances got into goal they wouldnt be saying that.
But some here adore Mourinho too much..
One game in which they scored one goal and we dominated posession and dominated them overall proves that?
If one of our chances got into goal they wouldnt be saying that.
But some here adore Mourinho too much..
Aye. It's like saying Di Matteo proved he was better than Pep in 2012 semi.
Yup. Truly ridiculous.
Van Gaal has more class than Mourinho. He is a football purist, and not that he only wants to win, but wants to win by dominating the match. All clubs he served played like this.
Mourinho is the better manager though. He has won more trophies than Van Gaal, and when he plays Van Gaal, he wins. Both on this match, and on the final in 2010, he defeated Van Gaal on basically the same way. Sit deep, let the other team has as much of ball as they want but don't allow them to create anything. And then hit them in the break.
That's not what happened though. We created plenty of chances imo, such as that early Rooney chance. We were just unlucky not to finish a few today, and had that early one gone in, the game would have been a lot different. So tactically, I reckon Van Gaal got it spot on, except for starting Falcao. But that was always a gamble, so no blame attached to him there.
Mourinho has never transformed teams he'd gone to though, he's never brought any sort of philosophy. He's managed to install winning mentality into his players and win with ready made teams but he's never gone through building from scratch process. Van Gaal has laid grounds for what happened 3-4 years later at Barcelona and Bayern, he seems to be doing the same in Manchester now - Mourinho hasn't done anything of a sort. When he leaves the club usually needs to find a completely new direction because Mourinho does not think long term. Doesn't necessarily mean one is better than another, they're just completely different and serve different purposes. Mourinho is far more likely to win you trophies while van Gaal is more likely to build you a team and lay foundations for future success.
Not really. Only Madrid was a ready made team. He built the teams that won trophies for Porto, Chelsea and Inter.
Long term part is a bit of bullshit, considering that Chelsea years after Mourinho left won UCL with his team. It's not that LVG is the ultimate long-term manager anyway, considering that he falls out with everyone after 2-3 years.
He didn't built the Barca foundation. He just continued Cruyff's good work. You must realize that Pep's Barca was 10 years after Van Gaal left for the first time, while LVG' second spell didn't last a year and was a total failure.
Van Gaal is an excellent manager and I am very happy that we chose him, and also with his good work here. I didn't expect us to challenge for the title this year, neither to win at SB. Wouldn't expect us to win at SB even if Fergie was still the manager, so no shame to lose against the champions elect. On the other side, I think that Mourinho is a better manager (one of the best of all time) and LVG was as naive as Rodgers for this week.
We created 2 chances. One at the beginning, and then Falcao's chance. They also hit the bar later. But from the moment they scored, it looked to me that they were in total control (or at least as much in control as you can be by having 30% of the ball). We had the ball, but there was nothing that we could do with it.
Watching the highlights, I think we were really unlucky to lose this one.
Bold statement that...
I watched the full match in the 'cold light of day', on Sunday. I thought we won a lot of breaking ball; I thought a draw would have been a fair result. And yes, anyone could have won. Pity about their goal, it was well taken, but avoidable. Foul call prior to it debatable.
A bit more from Mourinho and Zouma -
Mourinho can say all he wants but we had a lot of success in that Fellaini/Young/Shaw axis. Infact most of the chances came from that left wing. Our crossing was just poor on the day on top of the finishing.
The attempts to stop Young crossing with his right foot were significant though. That's how he got his assists the other day. Left foot is less reliable.
Tactical genius.
I don't agree with the notion that Mourinho outthought Van Gaal and that his tactical plan was flawless. It wasn't like our counter-attacking, defensive tactics against Barca in 08 (after Scholes scored) where they couldn't create shit. We created chances but didn't take them. Had Rooney not gone so nonchalantly about his finish in the first half and buried it, Mourinho's genius plan would have been outdone immediately. Imo you can control games while having 1/3 of possession but it wasn't the case there. They couldn't live with our passing, esp in the first half. they were visibly trying to dispossess us some 40 yards out from their goal but we ran rings around them. He got lucky with that imo. What he did well was nullifying Fellaini so he should get credit for that. And we had 3 very good chances in the second half.
It was a close game whatever. They got / created 1 great chance and scored, we created 2 maybe 3 and didn't take them.
I wouldn't call either manager a genius or an idiot on that performance.
I cant imagine 30% possession being part of any managers plan but being realistic they gave our cb's plenty of possession in our own half - they largely kept us out of dangerous positions.
If we'd scored from that rooney chance i imagine they'd have reacted differently and the match would have played out differently.
Maybe it would have given them a kick in the arse and inspired them to ask more difficult questions of our cobbled together defence.
It didn't though,
Rooney didn't score, they did and they kept us fairly quiet for most of the match.
Job done, well done to them.
The tactics their manager use is chelseas fans business, I dont have to watch it every week so i dont really care.
The only concerns I have about the Chelsea game is that Louis kept Falcao on for the entire match and brought on Di Maria far too late. Out of mercy I can't argue too much with starting Falcao, but at some point early in the second half he needed to come off. We were after all, in full chase mode against a double-parked bus in the second half and there was no reason to have Rooney sit as far as back as he did.
He always plays with a target man, Falcao was our only striker since he wanted Rooney in midfield for 'balance'. If he had more options to move Rooney up top I doubt Falcao would've stayed on.
Mourinho has been astoundingly arrogant post game, about his "Genius" plan to nullify Fellaini.
As if he's stopped a Pele or Maradona in their pomp, playing for a legendary team.
He scraped a 1-0 win against a team in early doors rebuilding, who admittedly have come across a last month of "cracking it", but were without some of those key players who facilitated it.
I submit that Louis did have an option to play Rooney up top, which was to have Fellaini sit back into midfield with Herrera.
Fellaini is not a naturally gifted deep lying midfielder, but once we saw that he was being man-marked Louis could have easily have Fellaini be the one to drop back and Rooney push forward. Simple!
But I, in all truth, proposed this starting XI before the game:
De Gea
Valencia Smalling McNair Shaw
Herrera Fellaini
Mata Di Maria Young
Rooney
I still like it and maybe we'll see that against Everton.
The entire world knew that Jose, who has 9.5 fingers around the prem trophy and nothing else to play for, was going to sit and counter on us. Injuries, form, United's form, relative league position, Jose's nature, etc. There was no need to have Rooney sit back to defend against a sustained Cheslea attack that was never going to come.
That's a midfield you're never going to see under van Gaal tbh. He always has 2 defensively good players there: usually the 6 and 8. In our normal midfield the 8 (Herrera) is less defensive but the 10 (Fellaini) defends more than normal for a van Gaal team and therefore he still has his balance.
Last match we missed both our 6, the only other defensively good midfielder we have is Rooney. He's also the only backup for Herrera or Fellaini. That's why van Gaal plays him there, he wants balance and control over the midfield. Fellaini, as we've seen, is much better in a role further up the pitch - our whole gameplan for him is based around that, moving him back in the middle of a game would ruin that.
Di Maria can be very effective in midfield, but it will mean we lose control since he's too sloppy (that's just how he is - not complaining). He has only played on the wings for a while now and I think that is where he will stay. If he moved Rooney out of midfield we'd be too lightweight for van Gaal. He could've chosen to take that risky approach but I think he didn't want to lose our control over the midfield (and thus over the game).
I think Mourinho is giving himself a bit too much credit really. Another day this genius tactic of his would have seen him lose 2/3-1 to us. One day it probably will happen that a good team actually pisses all over his tactic. It worked on Saturday but if we had been more clinical who knows. I'm not sure I'm really buying this whole Mourinho's a great tactician nonsense the media will have you believe.
The circumstances of this match were particularly unusual.
First, we were without Carrick AND Blind, which one wouldn't expect to happen very often. Second, it was a dead rubber match -- we were never going to catch Chelsea in the table and we're at little risk of dropping below fourth place now. The other significant factor is that Falcao hadn't gotten a start in a very long time and it's likely Louis wanted to give him one last, full 90 minute match.
So, while I agree we're not going to see Fellaini start in a holding mid role ever again, this was a match where it made perfect sense to keep Rooney up and push Fellaini back, especially after it was clear before the match Jose was going to park the bus on us.
Rooney really isn't all that great defensively and he's effectively wasted in a holding mid role, at least in a game we're pushing hard for a win. He can do a job deep in midfield, but Rooney really is a natural attacking forward, not a box to box or holding midfielder.
And this leads me to my broader thesis, which is that wasn't a game Louis felt he needed to win. We fielded the an XI that was not optimal for this opponent under the circumstances. Rooney is a vastly superior attacking player than Fellaini and Falcao are and should have been played up, if the objective were victory at all costs. Louis's late substitutions, subbing off both Young and Mata, ended all debate that Louis was going all out for the win.
As for Di Maria's loose control this season, that's true, but if Chelsea are sitting back we need our best offensive players who are not injured and that certainly has to include Di Maria and not Falcao. And if we're concerned about Di Maria playing in a central position, we could have played him wide left and brought Young into a central position, which he had experience with at Villa.
As it was, we created maybe one more good chance than Chelsea created despite the fact that we had 70% percent possession. Fellaini would have pushed up anyway as Chelsea sat further and further back to protect their lead while Falcao, though working hard, was virtually invisible throughout the match.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
If Rooney started upfront we'd have won that game. I don't want to see Falcao in the starting lineup against Everton
This.
If the circumstances of the match were different and we "needed" the win, Rooney would have started up front. But as it was the match was essentially a dead rubber so we had the luxury of starting Falcao for what surely has to be the very last time, and playing Rooney as a holding mid.
Ludicrous. Who were you planning to play in the midfield position that Rooney occupied?
- Status
Man of the Match
Runners-up
-
17%
Ander Herrera
-
10%
Paddy McNair
-
6%
Chris Smalling
-
3%
Wayne Rooney
-
2%
Antonio Valencia
-
1%
Ashley Young
-
1%
Radamel Falcao
Player Ratings
Total Average Rating
Highest Rated Player
Lowest Rated Player
Compiled from 587 ratings.
Score Predictions
327,129,245
- Man Utd win
- Chelsea win
- Draw
Detailed Results
- 25% Chelsea 1:2 Man Utd
- 25% Chelsea 1:1 Man Utd
- 9% Chelsea 2:1 Man Utd
- 6% Chelsea 2:2 Man Utd
- 6% Chelsea 1:3 Man Utd
- 5% Chelsea 0:1 Man Utd
- 4% Chelsea 0:2 Man Utd
- 4% Chelsea 0:0 Man Utd
- 4% Chelsea 2:0 Man Utd
- 3% Chelsea 2:3 Man Utd
- 2% Chelsea 3:1 Man Utd
- 2% Chelsea 0:5 Man Utd
- 2% Chelsea 1:0 Man Utd
- 1% Chelsea 0:3 Man Utd
- 1% Chelsea 3:0 Man Utd
- 1% Chelsea 3:2 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 2:4 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 1:4 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 2:5 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 1:5 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 3:3 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 5:0 Man Utd
- 0% Chelsea 0:4 Man Utd
Match Stats
- Chelsea
- Man Utd
- Possession
- 30% 70%
- Shots
- 7 15
- Shots on Target
- 2 2
- Corners
- 3 7
- Fouls
- 13 11
Referee
Mike Dean
Man Utd Lineup
-
-
-
replaced by Angel Di Maria
-
replaced by Tyler Blackett
-
-
-
replaced by Adnan Januzaj
-
-
-
-
