[croadyman]

OK point and a decent result but in the context of the game the same problems exist and are costing us wins: an inability to keep the ball, shoddy passing from good players, lack of patience.

Yeah we seem to have such difficulty in keeping possession in most games and that needs to improve for us to ever challenge again

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

Yeah we seem to have such difficulty in keeping possession in most games and that needs to improve for us to ever challenge again

So very true. We have been behind here for ages,

 

[cyril C]

Our form against the top 6 sides is what will perhaps seal our 2nd spot and title challenge, quite the counter point to the beginning of Ole's reign where we kept dicking our rivals around us. 6 goalless draws where we played with a handbrake on is damning regardless of anything else.

Not dropping 7 points to Sheffield, WBA and Everton, is the difference why we are distant 2nd and not breathing at the neck of City. And I haven't even mention Leicester, Palace and so on.

 

[cyril C]

It’s an acceptable point in the grand scheme of things, but the manner in which it was secured was thoroughly unsatisfying.

Ole obviously wanted to win, but he wasn’t prepared to set his team up in a manner which gave him the best chance to actually do so. He was hoping to nick a 1 - 0 win, based upon a penalty, set piece, counter attack or piece of individual brilliance. It was never going to be based on tactics, strong build up play, etc. That’s either beyond Ole, or simply too risky for his blood.

It was a game played by a team, and led by a Manager, who are simply trying to secure a top 4 finish, not compete for a title. Maybe that’s pragmatic, maybe it’s cowardly...either way, it doesn’t sit well with many supporters. Most fans want to see Ole start to play with more aggression in these games.

You are talking like Scholes. While it is alright to criticise Ole for a safety first approach, you should also listen to Carracher for our pressing up high approach. And people ALWAYS forget to mention Chelsea. How did Chelsea set up in the home game WITHOUT home fans? 5 at the back on defending, plus 2 DMF? So how are you going to break down a bus of quality players? On attacking, 1 or 2 of their wingback will come forward, working with Mount, which was very dangerous in 1st half.

By playing 7 at the back, Chelsea had denied us any space at all, even if individual Chelsea defenders may be slow or committed any error. On our end, all 3 attackers only have pace to offer, which was denied. If we had a fit-again Martial, some dribbling might be useful, if we had Cavani, little 2-1 movement might be useful. But pace-alone was simply too easy for Chelsea's 5 at the back. McT was terrible on the 90th and perhaps really unfit for the game in general, but an unfit Pogba would have been worse on careless possession.

 

[RRCE]

You are talking like Scholes. While it is alright to criticise Ole for a safety first approach, you should also listen to Carracher for our pressing up high approach. And people ALWAYS forget to mention Chelsea. How did Chelsea set up in the home game WITHOUT home fans? 5 at the back on defending, plus 2 DMF? So how are you going to break down a bus of quality players? On attacking, 1 or 2 of their wingback will come forward, working with Mount, which was very dangerous in 1st half.

By playing 7 at the back, Chelsea had denied us any space at all, even if individual Chelsea defenders may be slow or committed any error. On our end, all 3 attackers only have pace to offer, which was denied. If we had a fit-again Martial, some dribbling might be useful, if we had Cavani, little 2-1 movement might be useful. But pace-alone was simply too easy for Chelsea's 5 at the back. McT was terrible on the 90th and perhaps really unfit for the game in general, but an unfit Pogba would have been worse on careless possession.

I’m not ripping anyone. It wasn‘t a bad point, but it wasn’t a team looking to do what it takes to win. The results against the bigger teams don’t lie, no matter how you spin it. The Chelsea game was just the latest example.

Also, Paul Scholes might just know more about football than the average fan.

 

[lex talionis]

I was actually more disappointed we didn’t grab the win at Anfield against a Liverpool side that was already reeling and there for the taking.

At the bridge, I never felt that Chelsea were the clearly inferior side. They have as much reason to be disappointed with the draw as we were.

The reality is that we just don’t have the firepower up front to trouble top six sides. Martial has been horrific, Greenwood is going through growing pains and Rashford looks completely burned out. James is not MUQ. Pogba and Cavani were out with injury. That leaves us with Bruno, who also looks worn down.

Mates, for all the talk of a CB coming in its clear as day that our most pressing hole in the squad is a quality striker. Ole knows that. We can score goals against middling clubs but we’re toothless in attack against quality opposition.

 

[rollingstoned1]

Not dropping 7 points to Sheffield, WBA and Everton, is the difference why we are distant 2nd and not breathing at the neck of City. And I haven't even mention Leicester, Palace and so on.

We will drop the odd point here and there, in the backdrop of Ole's reign this kind of form against the bigger teams is kind of unexpected where we don't even score a goal in 6 matches. Even 1 or 2 more wins would have made things look a lot more different.

 

[Nicoseth]

I’m not ripping anyone. It wasn‘t a bad point, but it wasn’t a team looking to do what it takes to win. The results against the bigger teams don’t lie, no matter how you spin it. The Chelsea game was just the latest example.

Also, Paul Scholes might just know more about football than the average fan.

To be fair, I've heard scholes come out with some absolute bollocks as a pundit. Great players don't make great pundits.

 

[Suedesi]

Awful

 

[justsomebloke]

You are talking like Scholes. While it is alright to criticise Ole for a safety first approach, you should also listen to Carracher for our pressing up high approach. And people ALWAYS forget to mention Chelsea. How did Chelsea set up in the home game WITHOUT home fans? 5 at the back on defending, plus 2 DMF? So how are you going to break down a bus of quality players? On attacking, 1 or 2 of their wingback will come forward, working with Mount, which was very dangerous in 1st half.

By playing 7 at the back, Chelsea had denied us any space at all, even if individual Chelsea defenders may be slow or committed any error. On our end, all 3 attackers only have pace to offer, which was denied. If we had a fit-again Martial, some dribbling might be useful, if we had Cavani, little 2-1 movement might be useful. But pace-alone was simply too easy for Chelsea's 5 at the back. McT was terrible on the 90th and perhaps really unfit for the game in general, but an unfit Pogba would have been worse on careless possession.

What a strange assessment by Carragher. As far as I can tell, Chelsea set up exactly like they have in every single game under Tuchel, and also played in the same way as they have in every single game under Tuchel. Which isn't 7 man in defence and parking the bus. Two central midfielders isn't the same thing as 2 DMF. That goes for both teams. They played that way at OT under Lampard, they did not on Sunday.

 

[Maticmaker]

At least we didn't come on to the pitch as though we had just got out of bed, lots of hurrying about, chasing, even running off the ball , for a while anyway. No cutting edge though.

Mount should have been given an Oscar for 'falling down', in the first 30 minutes cannot remember one tackle on him where he didn't fall down. Ref getting sucked in by his antics and after the 'hands...no sorry hands...' penalty debacle, he lost it; both sets of players were pulling his chain for a while.

The change in James is amazing, at last he has learned to run with his head up, which means lots of his passes are now finding their mark, but the speed at which he gets about is the advantage, at times 'homing-in' on Chelsea players then hurling himself at them. Unfortunately didn't get enough support for his pressing further up the pitch, but there has been a transformation that makes his inclusion in the squad now worthwhile.

Once again some poor or sloppy passes, always in the danger areas, thus allowing Chelsea a swift transition, which with better finishing would have caught us out. Although De Gea did perform well overall, there was still, what now seems to have become his obligatory miskick, straight to an opponent standing less than ten yards outside our box, thankfully nothing came of it.

Our struggle now looks like retaining second spot, rather than challenging City for the top.

 

[justsomebloke]

At least we didn't come on to the pitch as though we had just got out of bed, lots of hurrying about, chasing, even running off the ball , for a while anyway. No cutting edge though.

Mount should have been given an Oscar for 'falling down', in the first 30 minutes cannot remember one tackle on him where he didn't fall down. Ref getting sucked in by his antics and after the 'hands...no sorry hands...' penalty debacle, he lost it; both sets of players were pulling his chain for a while.

The change in James is amazing, at last he has learned to run with his head up, which means lots of his passes are now finding their mark, but the speed at which he gets about is the advantage, at times 'homing-in' on Chelsea players then hurling himself at them. Unfortunately didn't get enough support for his pressing further up the pitch, but there has been a transformation that makes his inclusion in the squad now worthwhile.

Once again some poor or sloppy passes, always in the danger areas, thus allowing Chelsea a swift transition, which with better finishing would have caught us out. Although De Gea did perform well overall, there was still, what now seems to have become his obligatory miskick, straight to an opponent standing less than ten yards outside our box, thankfully nothing came of it.

Our struggle now looks like retaining second spot, rather than challenging City for the top.

Clearly. I don't see that challenging City for the top is even an issue, unless they undergo something resembling a collapse. Even if we win every one of our remaining games, that leaves us at 86 points. For City to end up at 85, they'd have to lose 4 and draw 1 of their remaining 12 games.

 

[Maticmaker]

Clearly. I don't see that challenging City for the top is even an issue, unless they undergo something resembling a collapse. Even if we win every one of our remaining games, that leaves us at 86 points. For City to end up at 85, they'd have to lose 4 and draw 1 of their remaining 12 games.

Its an issue only in so far as if we still believe we in with a chance of challenging, then we are looking 'upwards' trying to catch up; where as if we are trying to hold on to second place then we are tending to be 'looking down' to see who is catching us up!

I suppose it comes down to the different kinds of pressure, we put on ourselves under, I would rather have the former its more positive, striving to catch City will in my opinion keeps us ahead of the pack, but looking who is coming up behind is a negative pressure.

 

[Bearded One]

I was actually more disappointed we didn’t grab the win at Anfield against a Liverpool side that was already reeling and there for the taking.

At the bridge, I never felt that Chelsea were the clearly inferior side. They have as much reason to be disappointed with the draw as we were.

The reality is that we just don’t have the firepower up front to trouble top six sides. Martial has been horrific, Greenwood is going through growing pains and Rashford looks completely burned out. James is not MUQ. Pogba and Cavani were out with injury. That leaves us with Bruno, who also looks worn down.

Mates, for all the talk of a CB coming in its clear as day that our most pressing hole in the squad is a quality striker. Ole knows that. We can score goals against middling clubs but we’re toothless in attack against quality opposition.

In fairness they were not as shit then as they are now. I wish we played against them this period.

 

[cyril C]

What a strange assessment by Carragher. As far as I can tell, Chelsea set up exactly like they have in every single game under Tuchel, and also played in the same way as they have in every single game under Tuchel. Which isn't 7 man in defence and parking the bus. Two central midfielders isn't the same thing as 2 DMF. That goes for both teams. They played that way at OT under Lampard, they did not on Sunday.

3 CB, when was the last time that Chelsea set up 3CB post Conte?

But I do admit it was more aggressive than what was set on paper, the 2x wingback were more like wingers, even though Giroud is relatively slow, the pace from the wingback made up for it. hence Chelsea was more aggressive than Utd in 1st half which I admit. Tuchel was better than Ole on tactics as far as I can see.

 

[cyril C]

I’m not ripping anyone. It wasn‘t a bad point, but it wasn’t a team looking to do what it takes to win. The results against the bigger teams don’t lie, no matter how you spin it. The Chelsea game was just the latest example.

Also, Paul Scholes might just know more about football than the average fan.

Last season we came on top against Big 6. Reason was simple, we were the underdog, all teams saw us vulnerable, we played at our best tactics, in fact ONLY tactics - counter-attack, with pacy attackers hence we won.

This season, even the last encounters with City and Liverpool, we were not deem as underdog. In fact, on 1st game against City, Liverpool and Chelsea, they were all on their dip in form. So all teams came in with a conservative tactics. You can argue (like Scholes) why we didn't attack them with 10 men inside their box?

Well, did we push 10-men inside their box during Scholes' era? We only did that in Istanbul this season. Throwing more men into their box is not the solution, putting the right players is.

All 3 attackers play with simple speed attribute, without Cavani there was no 2-1 play or smart movement, without (a fit again) Martial, no-one was capable of dribbling. With space denied at the Chelsea back, pace was useless, except for the 90th min counter-attack.

And sorry, I have much respect on Neville as commentator, but Scholes is terrible. He really know J-shit.

There is huge difference being players, being manager, and being commentator

 

[RRCE]

To be fair, I've heard scholes come out with some absolute bollocks as a pundit. Great players don't make great pundits.

I agree with that. Former players don’t always make great pundits. I would

Last season we came on top against Big 6. Reason was simple, we were the underdog, all teams saw us vulnerable, we played at our best tactics, in fact ONLY tactics - counter-attack, with pacy attackers hence we won.

This season, even the last encounters with City and Liverpool, we were not deem as underdog. In fact, on 1st game against City, Liverpool and Chelsea, they were all on their dip in form. So all teams came in with a conservative tactics. You can argue (like Scholes) why we didn't attack them with 10 men inside their box?

Well, did we push 10-men inside their box during Scholes' era? We only did that in Istanbul this season. Throwing more men into their box is not the solution, putting the right players is.

All 3 attackers play with simple speed attribute, without Cavani there was no 2-1 play or smart movement, without (a fit again) Martial, no-one was capable of dribbling. With space denied at the Chelsea back, pace was useless, except for the 90th min counter-attack.

And sorry, I have much respect on Neville as commentator, but Scholes is terrible. He really know J-shit.

There is huge difference being players, being manager, and being commentator

Part of the problem is, Ole approaches big games like we’re the underdog no matter the form or fitness of the opponent. If counter attacking is our only tactic, then he’s simply not suited to coach a team as big as United. Too often, he coaches not to lose, rather than to win. I’m not Ole out by any means, but I do wish he’d show more of a killer’s instinct at times.

I didn’t suggest for a moment that we should have attacked with ten men inside their box. That’s a ridiculous suggestion. I did assert, however, that there should be a reasonable level of attacking intent. There wasn’t. Against Chelsea, and any top level opponent, Ole keeeps it tight and hopes we take one of the two or three chances we might get over the course of 90 minutes. There are times in a season where that makes perfect sense. It’s less appealing to fans when it becomes a regular (and predictable) game plan.

I don’t agree that Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and James are so limited that they can’t create or do something other than kick and run, or try to run behind (although I do agree that they generally rely on speed rather than sophisticated build up play). They’re doing what they’re asked to do. The problem is that they’re incredibly isolated, with too big a creative gap between the defenders and attackers. In large part, that’s because Ole persists with Maguire, Lindelof, Fred and McTominay. That’s an incredibly defensive setup with virtually no creativity. It becomes very easy for teams to mark Bruno out if the game, and the forwards starve out there.

Again, I’m not overly critical of the draw. Chelsea away is never a bad point. I firmly believe, however, that most fans will have been disappointed with Ole’s approach to big games this season.

As for Scholes, I agree that former players don’t always make great pundits. I don't think Scholes is very well suited for it, in fact. I think it’s ridiculous to just outright dismiss him as being some sort of football idiot, though. He’s spent basically his entire life in the game, and played at the very highest level. He‘s undoubtedly more knowledgeable than the average fan.

In any event, the game is well in the past. Time to move forward.

 

[justsomebloke]

3 CB, when was the last time that Chelsea set up 3CB post Conte?

But I do admit it was more aggressive than what was set on paper, the 2x wingback were more like wingers, even though Giroud is relatively slow, the pace from the wingback made up for it. hence Chelsea was more aggressive than Utd in 1st half which I admit. Tuchel was better than Ole on tactics as far as I can see.

Chelsea has played with 3 CB in every single game under Tuchel. I couldn't really see any difference to their tactical approach in this game and their previous ones. There may have been nuances I missed, but the only thing I could really point to is the selection of Kante over Jorginho in the midfield. We challenged them much more with our counterpress than anyone else they've played in the PL under Tuchel has done, and as a consequence they had much less possession than they usually have. We didn't create much, but no one else has really done so against them either.

However, I agree Ole's tactical approach can be questioned (and around here, it's worth underlining that "can be questioned" doesn't mean "was obviously rubbish"). We played very aggressively and contested domination, but in the end, they had more possession, more shots, and created more and better chances. You could make a case that reverting to our old drop deep/counterattack approach would have been a good option for this game. Both because Chelsea play very compactly and with a high line and hence should be vulnerable to it, and also because they have been relatively ineffective in translating their possession dominance into goals.

 

[justsomebloke]

I agree with that. Former players don’t always make great pundits. I would

Part of the problem is, Ole approaches big games like we’re the underdog no matter the form or fitness of the opponent. If counter attacking is our only tactic, then he’s simply not suited to coach a team as big as United. Too often, he coaches not to lose, rather than to win. I’m not Ole out by any means, but I do wish he’d show more of a killer’s instinct at times.

I didn’t suggest for a moment that we should have attacked with ten men inside their box. That’s a ridiculous suggestion. I did assert, however, that there should be a reasonable level of attacking intent. There wasn’t. Against Chelsea, and any top level opponent, Ole keeeps it tight and hopes we take one of the two or three chances we might get over the course of 90 minutes. There are times in a season where that makes perfect sense. It’s less appealing to fans when it becomes a regular (and predictable) game plan.

I don’t agree that Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and James are so limited that they can’t create or do something other than kick and run, or try to run behind (although I do agree that they generally rely on speed rather than sophisticated build up play). They’re doing what they’re asked to do. The problem is that they’re incredibly isolated, with too big a creative gap between the defenders and attackers. In large part, that’s because Ole persists with Maguire, Lindelof, Fred and McTominay. That’s an incredibly defensive setup with virtually no creativity. It becomes very easy for teams to mark Bruno out if the game, and the forwards starve out there.

Again, I’m not overly critical of the draw. Chelsea away is never a bad point. I firmly believe, however, that most fans will have been disappointed with Ole’s approach to big games this season.

As for Scholes, I agree that former players don’t always make great pundits. I don't think Scholes is very well suited for it, in fact. I think it’s ridiculous to just outright dismiss him as being some sort of football idiot, though. He’s spent basically his entire life in the game, and played at the very highest level. He‘s undoubtedly more knowledgeable than the average fan.

In any event, the game is well in the past. Time to move forward.

Well, the point here is that we did not employ the counterattack tactics you complain about.

 

[justsomebloke]

Its an issue only in so far as if we still believe we in with a chance of challenging, then we are looking 'upwards' trying to catch up; where as if we are trying to hold on to second place then we are tending to be 'looking down' to see who is catching us up!

I suppose it comes down to the different kinds of pressure, we put on ourselves under, I would rather have the former its more positive, striving to catch City will in my opinion keeps us ahead of the pack, but looking who is coming up behind is a negative pressure.

Fair point. Ole and the lads are more than welcome to look at it that way, but I won't.

 

[duffer]

3 CB, when was the last time that Chelsea set up 3CB post Conte?

Last week, the week before that and the week before that. In fact pretty much every game since Tuchel came in.

 

[RRCE]

Well, the point here is that we did not employ the counterattack tactics you complain about.

Well, the point here is that we did not employ the counterattack tactics you complain about.

Ole set up to counterattack or try to get the forwards to run in behind. Chelsea took away those options and we had no contingency plan. There was no tactical or personnel shift to try to alter the course of the game. As a result, we created virtually nothing offensively.

 

[justsomebloke]

Ole set up to counterattack or try to get the forwards to run in behind. Chelsea took away those options and we had no contingency plan. There was no tactical or personnel shift to try to alter the course of the game. As a result, we created virtually nothing offensively.

Okay, there's a limit to how many times it's productive to point this out, but to make one final attempt at getting this basic point across:

In my view, you are obviously and completely misreading the game picture. United carried out an extremely aggressive and high counterpress. That is what you do if you attempt to disrupt the other team going forward, and/or dominate possession. If you're setting up for counterattack, you do not try to disrupt the other team going forward - on the contrary, they have to go forward, otherwise you don't get counterattack opportunities. Hence, you drop low and maintain a compact shape, focus on controlling the key defensive areas in and around the box, drawing the opposition in and wait for them to lose the ball. Then you pounce. This is plainly not what United did, or tried to do, in this game. Over and out from me on this issue.

 

[RRCE]

Okay, there's a limit to how many times it's productive to point this out, but to make one final attempt at getting this basic point across:

In my view, you are obviously and completely misreading the game picture. United carried out an extremely aggressive and high counterpress. That is what you do if you attempt to disrupt the other team going forward, and/or dominate possession. If you're setting up for counterattack, you do not try to disrupt the other team going forward - on the contrary, they have to go forward, otherwise you don't get counterattack opportunities. Hence, you drop low and maintain a compact shape, focus on controlling the key defensive areas in and around the box, drawing the opposition in and wait for them to lose the ball. Then you pounce. This is plainly not what United did, or tried to do, in this game. Over and out from me on this issue.

I disagree completely. We tried to press high, but it clearly wasn’t “extremely aggressive”. It was decent at times, woeful at other times. At best, it was inconsistent. We obviously didn’t dominate possession.

Most often, United were inviting the press, but Chelsea didn’t get sucked in. Both teams were conservative in their approach. Tuchel tried to make some changes, but it didn’t work. Ole didn’t try to change anything and, shockingly, nothing got better. We created virtually nothing.

One thing we can agree on - that’s enough debate about this game.

 

[Swearing Budgie]

Really?

Brighton 3-2
Fulham 2-1
West Brom 1-0 and 1-1
Sheffield United 2-1 and 1-2
Burnley 1-0
Newcastle 4-1 and 3-1

So, against the bottom teams we have 7 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss.

"Devoid?"

Oh yeah, sorry. I meant to say we have been really good against the bottom teams.

 

[Maticmaker]

Fair point. Ole and the lads are more than welcome to look at it that way, but I won't.

After last night and recent results looks like they are not lookin at it in anyway whatsoever, neither challenging for title, or trying to retain top four place! Absolutely desperate for some leaders on the pitch.