PL D FA Premier League

Liverpool 0:0 Manchester United

Post-match discussion


Sun, 17 January 2021

charlenefan

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I think a lot of our frustrations yesterday come from the fact we had the players to win at Anfield but unfortunately haven't got the mentality yet. Like Neville just said on MNF there is many a time under Fergie we struggled there, however back then we were able to take one or two from the few chances we created whereas this team didn't have that killer instinct to do that.
As far back as I can remember Anfield has always been a shit ground for us. We almost never win there which is why the times we do you remember the games
 

croadyman

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As far back as I can remember Anfield has always been a shit ground for us. We almost never win there which is why the times we do you remember the games
Yeah with O Shea at the Kop end in 2007 still my all time fave closely followed by Diego's double in 2002
 

Heinzesight

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Didn’t realise Liverpool were the only team in history to have a ref blow a few seconds early for HT.

Desperate, shit-slinging twats.
 

croadyman

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Didn’t realise Liverpool were the only team in history to have a ref blow a few seconds early for HT.

Desperate, shit-slinging twats.
Yeah and that deep defending getting up Klopps nose as well was great, sorry Jurgen we aren't just going to come to your backyard and be wide open like your pal Pep does
 

justsomebloke

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You don't think Paul Pogba, playing well, inspires and drives the team around him? Well, we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Fred and McTominay are decent players, but neither come close to a Pogba playing well, regardless of where they may be playing.
I don't think he's necessarily our best option in central midfield no, and I also think many of his best performances have come when used on the flank.
 

justsomebloke

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Mate we really Just sat back for majority of the game, in the first half as Graeme Souness put it, (and I rarely agree with him) we were playing hung on football, we failed to fashion out any meaningful attack, we were waiting for a break, we probably should have been behind had Firmino taken his chances.
We attempted to try and win late on in the game, and created two great chances, one with Bruno then Pogba, we didn't register a single shot on target in the first half, and Liverpool dominated the procession, for someone to say we deserved to win! now that's nonsensical.

Fabinho and Henderson were not excellent, the didn't have much of a threat to deal with. No one is saying Liverpool are a poor or weak team , but they are not at their best at the moment and were there fro the taking.
Not sure who you're arguing with here, except for the last paragraph. Which seems to contradict your first, unless you're arguing that Liverpool dominated possession and were unlucky not to lead at the break basically because United didn't try. Of course, it wasn't Fabinho and Henderson who played well (which would inconveniently invalidate the "there for the taking" rubbish), it was just we who didn't threaten them. Unfortunately for that line of reasoning, Fabinho has been excellent pretty much all season as a CB, and I've yet to see Henderson perform poorly there too. Also, while Liverpool certainly is not at their best, perhaps it would be relevant to consider exactly what they've been struggling with. And what they've been struggling with is not defence - they've allowed two goals in their last four. What they've been struggling with is scoring against deep or well-organised defences. They've also been dominating possession during all of that weak run - in fact, the 65% they had against United was the least they've had in that 4-game run. So, this is not a team that has proven itself vulnerable to being energetically attacked, unless you're prepared to look at things in the most superficial manner and make assumptions that don't really exist.
 

justsomebloke

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A great attack can be nullified by a great defense and Utd do have that in my opinion, especially given the way we set up in these games. So it's nor surprising or even notable that City and Liverpool haven't been able to score against us. Worth noting that Spurs had a field day at our expense. Bottom line is, consistency across an extended period is what counts.

Now, Son and Kane haven't gone quiet..Son got an assist and Kane scored last game out. Both of them are right at the top of the goal scorers charts for both goals and assists, and that's remarkable.

Liverpool's three are the same in that they have had a rough few weeks But their quality is evident and proven. Salah is the too scorer and Mane is not too far thereabouts.

City's out and out attackers have not really done well so far but they have a really functional machine that makes up for it and the thrust of their attack has really always come from their attacking midfielders.

Now my concern with United is that unlike say Liverpool, who struggle to break down defensive teams, or City who seemed to tactically make some attacking sacrifices in order to fix their defense, Utd actually do create a few good chances that get squandered through poor finishing, decision making, or passing. And that's worrisome because the other teams will soon get out of their difficult periods and we know how clinical they can be.
Actually, we are not a team that scores few goals compared to the chances we create. Quite the opposite in fact - our xG is lower than our goals scored, and we are 5th best in the league in that regard (Southampton, Everton, Leicester and Tottenham are better). We are better at converting our chances than Liverpool, and vastly better than City, who has the 5th worst differential between xG and goals scored in the league. There's only been two games where we've scored significantly below our xG - this was one of them, WBA the other. By contrast, there's been 6 games where we significantly outscored our xG - Brighton, Everton, West Ham, Sheffield United, Newcastle and Leeds. So by any reasonable definition, you'd have to consider us a team that has fairly clinical finishing.

The fact we've played 0-0 in three of our games against other top sides really invites a closer look - it's striking. The Tottenham game is IMO rather useless as a point of reference - those first three games we were plainly not ready for the season, and I don't think they can tell us anything very meaningful about the strengths and weaknesses of the team.

"Consistency across an extended period"? We have a 13-game PL unbeaten streak. And we've lost 3 times in the PL since 1 February last year.
 

TheRedHearted

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That’s Cavani being too used to Neymar and Suarez where a simple through ball is bread and butter. Cavani’s run was the right one timed to stay onside.
I suppose- he crossed the defender. Could have pointed to the way he was moving since the defender had his back to him. Imo he should have slowed down and drawn the defender to him.
 

Yorke to Cole

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Over 24 hours after the match, I feel that the team demonstrated a competent level of maturity in how we are managing certain aspects of our game. We have improved in handling the oppositions initial pressure during the opening stages of the match. Whether it be Liverpool or Burnley in the mid week.

I still think the team needs to improve of imposing themselves on the match, (particularly the teams that are around us. ) That includes the midfield being composed to play a pass with poise rather than rushing as we did against Liverpool when trying to play Rashford over the top. Rashford himself, needs to improve with his timing of runs and timing of when to release the ball (the opportunity to find Cavani) during the second half. That has encapsulated Rashford's for this season. But then there was the assist for Pogba during the midweek.

I still think a right sided player would give us that extra 25% in attacking threat. We just need to keep going.
 

georgipep

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Mate we really Just sat back for majority of the game, in the first half as Graeme Souness put it, (and I rarely agree with him) we were playing hung on football, we failed to fashion out any meaningful attack, we were waiting for a break, we probably should have been behind had Firmino taken his chances.
We attempted to try and win late on in the game, and created two great chances, one with Bruno then Pogba, we didn't register a single shot on target in the first half, and Liverpool dominated the procession, for someone to say we deserved to win! now that's nonsensical.

Fabinho and Henderson were not excellent, the didn't have much of a threat to deal with. No one is saying Liverpool are a poor or weak team , but they are not at their best at the moment and were there fro the taking.
 

Sean_RedDevil

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I never had an issue with Ole not winning against top sides as long as we do not lose. It was the dropping of points against the weaker and smaller teams that was the issue with him earlier on.
We'll at this moment it's the closest we've been to a title challenge since Fergie retired, so let's just calm down and wait.

I have my complaints from Solksjaer too, but let's not go for low blows, and focus on what works.
The most important thing today was to avoid defeat first and foremost, and that was best-achieved by sitting deep and waiting patiently for a chance to break away. There is a lot to be said for pragmatism under the right circumstances, and Ole proved that right today after very nearly coming away with 3 points.

Question for those doubting Ole's strategy today:

When was the last time a side went to Anfield and played attacking and won the game?
Yes a draw at Anfield is actually never a negative result but my point was that something must change in our game against top-sides if we want to reach the next level (I mean there is a reason why we haven't won against the top-sides in the league this season and why we have lost four semi-finals in a row).
 

cyberman

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With Cavani sprinting straight on to it and Fabinho backpeddling and needing to turn. Yeah, sure.
How wide does the pass have to be if Fabinho is face on Rashord, 1 yard away to get through to Cavani and get him 1 on 1?
 

cyberman

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Yes a draw at Anfield is actually never a negative result but my point was that something must change in our game against top-sides if we want to reach the next level (I mean there is a reason why we haven't won against the top-sides in the league this season and why we have lost four semi-finals in a row).
Its like 2 defeats against the top 10 in 12 months or something stupid like that.
City are second with 0 wons against the current top 6.
I think this top 6 league is a modern stat thats brought up and has little relevence to the quality of a team.
Citys lost against every top side last year, no wins against the current top 6 yet City fans are lnt having a fit about that.
Theyre being tipped to walk the title now, if anything
 

Giggzy P

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reply to georgipep


I don't think anyone thought we would go there and dominate Liverpool, but even under Sir Alex, we didn't just sit back and hope, that never happened. Gary and even Keane were just sticking up for Ole, you can't just sit back majority of the game and then have a go in the last 10 to 15 minutes, especially when Liverpool are out of form., it was like watching a Sam Allardyce managed team, against a big 6 side for most of the match, it was poor.

This is not having a go at Ole, even though I have wanted him out a few times this season, its just that it was a missed opportunity.
 
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dogwithabone

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I’m genuinely surprised at the criticism we are getting for not having more of a go at Liverpool. This stuff about makeshift central defenders is a load of nonsense, Fabinho has plenty of game time in that position in his career. Just because a team has a couple of players out of position doesn’t mean a free for all for their opponent.

Liverpool have been probably the most consistent and arguably the best side the past three seasons - even in City’s last title winning season - and are one of the best sides at defending from the front. You have to nullify their midfield and attack going forward and then break them down going forward ourselves before we even reach their centre backs but people are making it sound we should have turned it into a basketball match just to appease expectant viewers on Sky.

A draw is a tremendous result and a 0-0 one even better in that we’ve done a bit of a job on them. Numerous times we had performances and results like this under Fergie, more so in European matches, but nobody should kid themselves that every game under SAF was 95 minutes end to end. He won countless trophies grinding out these sort of results against the big boys but crucially would then batter the also rans 4, 5 and 6 - something that Ole hasn’t quite yet mastered. But we are getting there and progressing nicely.
 
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The Original

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Actually, we are not a team that scores few goals compared to the chances we create. Quite the opposite in fact - our xG is lower than our goals scored, and we are 5th best in the league in that regard (Southampton, Everton, Leicester and Tottenham are better). We are better at converting our chances than Liverpool, and vastly better than City, who has the 5th worst differential between xG and goals scored in the league. There's only been two games where we've scored significantly below our xG - this was one of them, WBA the other. By contrast, there's been 6 games where we significantly outscored our xG - Brighton, Everton, West Ham, Sheffield United, Newcastle and Leeds. So by any reasonable definition, you'd have to consider us a team that has fairly clinical finishing.

The fact we've played 0-0 in three of our games against other top sides really invites a closer look - it's striking. The Tottenham game is IMO rather useless as a point of reference - those first three games we were plainly not ready for the season, and I don't think they can tell us anything very meaningful about the strengths and weaknesses of the team.

"Consistency across an extended period"? We have a 13-game PL unbeaten streak. And we've lost 3 times in the PL since 1 February last year.
I was talking about consistency in finishing. I think there have been quite a few narrow wins that should have been emphatic and a few draws that should never have been.

I see what you say about xG but I'll say three things:

1. A low xG indicates that we are not creative enough which is still largely indicative of our attack not being strong enough. We are largely a counter-attacking team so the creativity largely rests with the front four attacking players. You might blame Ole for this, but wherever the blame lies, the point simply is, this attack is not performing at title-challenging levels.

2. Overperforming your xG is never a good sign. It implies some good fortune or a short spell of unsustainable good form that sooner or later will revert to a level closer to your xG.

3. Going off my memory alone, and I'm sure you will agree, Martial and Rashford have missed a notable number of easy chances. So maybe we outscored xG but still, there is a finishing issue.

The combined output of the top 4 attackers per title-challenging club:

Liverpool: 29
Tottenham: 28
Utd: 23
City: 17
Leicester: 26
Chelsea: 17

Things to get worried over are the fact that Liverpool are merely going through a slump in form and we can expect them to recover soon. City is also on the rise. If those two get going, and we continue to struggle in attack, we can expect to end up in 3rd again or 2nd.
 

iHicksy

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I watched a lot of games under Fergie at anfield which were similar to our performance there under Ole. I reackon he's using the same formula as Fergie to try and win the league which has always been don't lose away to the big four and then take all your points from everyone else home and away and try and beat them at home.
 

theklr

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Yes a draw at Anfield is actually never a negative result but my point was that something must change in our game against top-sides if we want to reach the next level (I mean there is a reason why we haven't won against the top-sides in the league this season and why we have lost four semi-finals in a row).
Strange how we are completely reversed from last year, then we struggled against the worse teams but won alot of top 6 games.
 

Zeno

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Football is a lot like poker - if you want to win big you have to risk losing.

United simply were not ready to risk losing against Liverpool - as was the case against City in the league. In many other games this season where United were chasing the league leaders and have gone a goal down then there is simply nothing to lose.

As league leaders the upcoming games will require bravery. Will they risk surrendering a position on top of the league to win the league?

I sense a growing maturity and realisation in this team following the disappointment against Liverpool. We will see a reaction against Fulham.
 

McTerminator

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So you are saying that all of those teams have a better attack than United?
If we added a right wing then no certainly not because I would take Rashford and Martial over most, but to take them in order:

Chelsea: Werner, Havertz, Ziyech, Pulisic. On paper that’s strong in every position across the front line.

Tottenham: Kane, Son, Moura. Moura clearly the odd one out but better than what we have for the right wing. Kane and Son are self explanatory.

Arsenal: Auba and Lacazette are world class and you could definitely win the league with those two up top.

Liverpool: Mane, Salah, Firmino. Widelyregarded as the best front three I. World football rightly or wrongly.

City: Aguero, KDB, Silva/Mahrez, Sterling. Absolutely top draw in every position before youeven talk about strength in depth.

Leicster: As I said at a stretch if you say they play with one up top only then Vardy has proven to be a title winning striker.

United: Bruno, Rashford, Martial, ???. You can slot Cavani or Greenwood or Pogba in if you want, but however you shuffle them none can play right wing effectively.

Now clearly I haven’t compared like for like, but I have tried to limit it to what I would consider to be each teams “attack” as the question I was answering was, how many teams have a world class attack. If we had a Sancho then for my money we have the best attack in the league right now, but as an attacking unit we are basically playing with one hand tied behind our back imo unlike almost all the others mentioned above.
 

justsomebloke

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Replies within the quote, in non-bold.

I was talking about consistency in finishing.

So was I.

I think there have been quite a few narrow wins that should have been emphatic and a few draws that should never have been.

xG really says otherwise. We have more wins that have been more emphatic than they should have been, than we have wins that are less emphatic than they should have been.

1. A low xG indicates that we are not creative enough which is still largely indicative of our attack not being strong enough.

Yes, but we don't have a low xG.

We are largely a counter-attacking team so the creativity largely rests with the front four attacking players.

Actually, that's not really the case. Our goals are fairly evenly divided between counterattack goals, goals on penalties and set pieces and goals from established play.

You might blame Ole for this, but wherever the blame lies, the point simply is, this attack is not performing at title-challenging levels.

We have scored the second most goals in the PL - only Liverpool has more.

2. Overperforming your xG is never a good sign. It implies some good fortune or a short spell of unsustainable good form that sooner or later will revert to a level closer to your xG.

Well then, if so then the point that makes is that our finishing has been so good that we can't realistically expect it continue to be as good as it has been, which is the opposite of the point you are making. The point you make is true, but it is also the case that if you're overperforming your xG then by definition your finishing is clinical.

However, I would not see this as a very big issue - we aren't overperforming our xG by that much. 13 teams have scored more goals than their xG suggests, and we're more or less in the middle of that pack. Only Southampton has really strongly overperformed its xG 8 (by more than 8!).

3. Going off my memory alone, and I'm sure you will agree, Martial and Rashford have missed a notable number of easy chances. So maybe we outscored xG but still, there is a finishing issue.

No, that's exactly what there isn't. That's why you should use statistics instead of emotive judgments based on individual moments that made an impression on you. Everyone misses a number of clear chances. The point is the frequency.

The combined output of the top 4 attackers per title-challenging club:

Liverpool: 29
Tottenham: 28
Utd: 23
City: 17
Leicester: 26
Chelsea: 17


Well, if the point is team success, then it hardly matters if it's your top 4 attackers scoring the goals or if it's somebody else. And as mentioned, we are 2nd in PL scoring, and outperforming our xG.

Whether individual players have met expectations is of course a different matter. Rashford has 13 goals in all competitions if my count is correct, which is hardly cause for worry halfway through the season. But Martial and Greenwood one would obviously expect much more from. Cavani too has not added much to the tally yet. But that doesn't point to a team weakness - rather it points to a clear potential to do even better than we have so far.
In summation: Not only are we outscoring everyone other than Liverpool, we are also scoring more goals than xG suggests we should, and winning more games by larger margins than we should than we win games by smaller margins than we should. In other words, there's no basis for arguing we have a problem with either scoring or efficiency - we're doing great on both points. The fact we have a number of attackers who have not delivered what they should doesn't mean we have a scoring problem - it actually means we have a real potential to be even better.
 
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justsomebloke

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With Cavani sprinting straight on to it and Fabinho backpeddling and needing to turn. Yeah, sure.
I'm not sure you actually understand who is Fabinho on the picture. It's not the guy marking Cavani. He's the guy Rashford is about two meters away from running into. By the time Rashford has come far enough to thread a pass through to Cavani on Cavani's right, Fabinho has closed off that lane.

You will note that Cavani is running leftwards. If Rashford puts the pass through on Cavani's right from the angle he has on the picture, then it's Cavani who has to turn, with an overwhelming likelihood Allison will be the first player to reach it.

If he puts it to the left of the defender marking Cavani, which is the pass you're suggesting with your arrow, then the defender clearly gets to it before Cavani does. Seriously, this should not be hard to see. An excellent piece of defending it is too.

I suppose he could have tried a lob over Cavani and his marker, but that would've been real marksman's work for it to land where Cavani gets to it, and gets to it first.

If Rashford is at fault, it's for not catching Pogba's run on the right, which he certainly could have made something of.

EDIT: Sorry, it turns out it's me who didn't understand who Fabinho is on the picture. Just re-watched it, and it is Fabinho marking Cavani. Don't see that he needs to backpedal and turn though - he's right on top of Cavani and running parallell to him until he sees Rashford turning right.
 
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The Original

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Replies within the quote, in non-bold.



In summation: Not only are we outscoring everyone other than Liverpool, we are also scoring more goals than xG suggests we should, and winning more games by larger margins than we should than we win games by smaller margins than we should. In other words, there's no basis for arguing we have a problem with either scoring or efficiency - we're doing great on both points. The fact we have a number of attackers who have not delivered what they should doesn't mean we have a scoring problem - it actually means we have a real potential to be even better.
Fair enough.
 

justsomebloke

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Fun fact: Following this game, it is no longer mathematically possible for any team to equal Liverpool's 99 points last season.
 

crossy1686

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Fun fact, Liverpool haven't won at Old Trafford since 2014.

Can't wait to hear the same criticisms thrown at them when they come to Old Trafford and don't "go for it".
 

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Its stronger than the one he won his last title with
I disagree. Only Pogba, Bruno and current DDG would start in that team. Possibly a shout for Luke Shaw on current form, but Evra was every bit as good and consistent for years. Even if you include Shaw, it's still majority the 2013 team that's stronger.

De Gea

Rafael Vidic Ferdinand Evra

Carrick Pogba

Valencia Bruno Rooney

Van Persie​
 

simplyared

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Reflecting on the game now after a few days have passed, I think we could have done better tbf.
Their attacking force is not working as of late with the only real threat coming from Mane. Thiago is a "luxury" player imv and didn't put us under any pressure either. Shaqiri is a squad player. No VVD. Why Klopp had Jones on the bench for so long I'm happy for us, but can't understand from a Liverpool point of view.
On the whole a weakened out of form Liverpool we should have beaten!
 

CG1010

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I disagree. Only Pogba, Bruno and current DDG would start in that team. Possibly a shout for Luke Shaw on current form, but Evra was every bit as good and consistent for years. Even if you include Shaw, it's still majority the 2013 team that's stronger.

De Gea

Rafael Vidic Ferdinand Evra

Carrick Pogba

Valencia Bruno Rooney

Van Persie​
Surely Rashford in place of Valencia can be considered. He would be better than 2013 Valencia.
 

Sean_RedDevil

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Its like 2 defeats against the top 10 in 12 months or something stupid like that.
City are second with 0 wons against the current top 6.
I think this top 6 league is a modern stat thats brought up and has little relevence to the quality of a team.
Citys lost against every top side last year, no wins against the current top 6 yet City fans are lnt having a fit about that.
Theyre being tipped to walk the title now, if anything
But Manchester City have won a lot of trophies in the last few years.

Liverpool (Should they play their best team) in the FA-Cup match will be interesting for this topic.
 

Pogue Mahone

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It’s one of those results we’ll get a better idea about over the next week or two. If Liverpool continue to drop points against mediocre opposition like they did in the last few games before we played them it will look like a real missed opportunity. If they go on a good run then it will look like a valuable point.

Similarly, our own form in the weeks ahead will tell us a lot about how well we really played yesterday.

As it stands, it isn’t easy to make sense of the game. But it does suck that we created two such high quality chances and didn’t convert either of them. Because winning one nil would definitely have been a good result.
@Bilbo

:(
 

DomesticTadpole

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People moaning about our result after last night. Don't. This was always the sort of game they were going to lose, resting players and the players he did pick thinking it might be easy. Makes our result at Burnley great.
 

Bilbo

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People moaning about our result after last night. Don't. This was always the sort of game they were going to lose, resting players and the players he did pick thinking it might be easy. Makes our result at Burnley great.
Good point. It definitely does make our win at Burnley look better
 

justsomebloke

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People are free to choose their own paths to disappointment, but some paths are more avoidable than others. :)
 

Man of the Match

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157,79,83
  • Man Utd win
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Detailed Results

  • 26% Liverpool 1:2 Man Utd
  • 18% Liverpool 1:1 Man Utd
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  • 8% Liverpool 2:0 Man Utd
  • 6% Liverpool 0:2 Man Utd
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  • 1% Liverpool 1:4 Man Utd
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Match Stats

  1. Liverpool
  2. Man Utd
Possession
66% 34%
Shots
17 8
Shots on Target
3 4
Corners
7 3
Fouls
15 6

Referee

Paul Tierney