[largelyworried]

Doesn't really get you much further, does it. Because that's still the GK who has decide if and when there's doubt.

Also, that in the end means that you only do as much build-up play as your GKs confidence and decision-making allows. So while that's a sound rule of thumb to minimise the risk of really bad cock-ups by the GK, it doesn't really bring you much closer to being able to vary correctly between playing out from the back and playing it long according to the opponents posture.

Firstly, this is asking De Gea to do no more than he has done so far in his entire career. I rate De Gea not a jot but lets not over egg the pudding here. Suggesting that he can't even figure out how to make a short pass to an unmarked player is kind of ridiculous.

But secondly, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. This is not a defence of De Gea. The original poster said that we should ditch playing out from the back and go for simple and direct football. All I'm saying is that there are ways of mitigating De Gea's biggest weaknesses that still permits us to try playing some measure of progressive football. The preferred solution would be to ditch De Gea for a better keeper, but in the absence of that, I don't think we need to ditch the whole thing and go direct.

 

[justsomebloke]

kicking it long from goal kicks does not mean we surrender possession for the entire game at all. My point was that with more progressive full backs and better players in the middle of the park, on the occasions where we have goal kicks, we simply rely on winning knock ons and second balls to win back possession. Casemiro will be key to this.

This does not mean that we surrender possession for the entire game - goal kicks are not that central a feature of a football match but Liverpool exploit them brilliantly.

Ole ball was counter attacking full stop. A-B ASAP. that was our only effective way of playing under Ole. We were shit otherwise.

so I am saying, against high pressing sides, Going long from goal kicks does not mean having to play on the break. We can just gain possession in different areas of the pitch and use it better.

Sorry, I assumed your point wasn't that playing out from the back doesn't mean surrendering position 100% of the time, since that is self-evident. But kicking it long does mean you get much less possession than you do if you play out from the back. How much less depends as much on what the oppo does as on what you do, so there's really not a way to do that which reliably leaves you with a lot of possession. And it's not simply a different way of gaining possession in a different area of the pitch. It is less possession and more ball losses.

Ole ball was not "counter attacking full stop", and nor is it true we were unsuccessful when we didn't play that way. That's just ignorant.

 

[captaincantona]

Sorry, I assumed your point wasn't that playing out from the back doesn't mean surrendering position 100% of the time, since that is self-evident. But kicking it long does mean you get much less possession than you do if you play out from the back. How much less depends as much on what the oppo does as on what you do, so there's really not a way to do that which reliably leaves you with a lot of possession. And it's not simply a different way of gaining possession in a different area of the pitch. It is less possession and more ball losses.

Ole ball was not "counter attacking full stop", and nor is it true we were unsuccessful when we didn't play that way. That's just ignorant.

It was the only identifiable tactic we had. There was no other distinct approach under Ole. We were completely and utterly unsuccessful under Ole when not counter attacking. Name any period aside from straight after his appointment where we played good football and got good results that didn’t include counter attacking?

And to label my opinion ignorant is in itself ignorant…no effort to understand the point in making.

 

[justsomebloke]

Firstly, this is asking De Gea to do no more than he has done so far entire career. I rate De Gea not a jot but lets not over egg the pudding here. Suggesting that he can't even figure out how to make a short pass to an unmarked player is kind of ridiculous.

But secondly, I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. This is not a defence of De Gea. The original poster said that we should ditch playing out from the back and go for simple and direct football. All I'm saying is that there are ways of mitigating De Gea's biggest weaknesses that still permits us to try playing some measure of progressive football. The preferred solution would be to ditch De Gea for a more better keeper, but in the absence of that, I don't think we need to ditch the whole thing and go direct.

Sorry, what? You watched the Brentford game, and think it's ridiculous to suggest there's no issue with De Gea's decision making playing out from the back? Was that why EtH felt called upon to clarify that he shouldn't play out from the back if it wasn't possible to play out from the back? Or Monday's game for that matter, where the only time he did that he ended up playing Varane into a dead alley that resulted in a corner for Liverpool? This has consistently been a problem area for De Gea, and is generally acknowledged to be one of his weakest traits.

Other than that I don't read your point as a defence of de Gea. And I agree with you that just going long isn't a solution. But I'm pointing out that if you're going to vary between going short and going long according to the posture of the opposing team, this entails an increased reliance on the GKs ability to make good decisions. Which is a problem, since we have a GK who clearly struggles to make good decisions on that front. And while there certainly are things you can do that makes things easier for the GK, I think you're a fair bit on the wishful side if you think that amounts to more or less removing that problem.

 

[justsomebloke]

It was the only identifiable tactic we had. There was no other distinct approach under Ole. We were completely and utterly unsuccessful under Ole when not counter attacking. Name any period aside from straight after his appointment where we played good football and got good results that didn’t include counter attacking?

And to label my opinion ignorant is in itself ignorant…no effort to understand the point in making.

The period from Bruno's arrival at the end of January 2020 and through the following season. If you think the football we played during that period relied solely on counterattacking you either can't have been watching the games, or need to watch them again.

 

[largelyworried]

Sorry, what? You watched the Brentford game, and ...snip

I already explained the difference between a high risk way of playing through a press, as we did at Brentford, and a lower risk one that we can use. You're welcome to reread that post.

Other than that I don't read your point as a defence of de Gea. And I agree with you that just going long isn't a solution. But I'm pointing out that if you're going to vary between going short and going long according to the posture of the opposing team, this entails an increased reliance on the GKs ability to make good decisions. Which is a problem, since we have a GK who clearly struggles to make good decisions on that front. And while there certainly are things you can do that makes things easier for the GK, I think you're a fair bit on the wishful side if you think that amounts to more or less removing that problem.

Mitigating a problem does not mean "more or less removing" it, so I've no idea what you're even arguing against.

 

[justsomebloke]

I already explained the difference between a high risk way of playing through a press, as we did at Brentford, and a lower risk one that we can . You're welcome to reread that post.



Mitigating a problem does not mean "more or less removing" it, so I've no idea what you're even arguing against.

I don't think I need to reread it, thanks. I just don't share your optimism that there's a simple effective low risk way of doing that instead that makes it so easy for the GK that it's ridiculous to suggest David de Gea's decision making could possibly be a problem.

 

[captaincantona]

The period from Bruno's arrival at the end of January 2020 and through the following season. If you think the football we played during that period relied solely on counterattacking you either can't have been watching the games, or need to watch them again.

Bruno’s arrival signalled a short period of decent results. The football was tumescent but Bruno added some risk and some gloss.

The rest of the season - are we talking about the behind closed doors stuff where we flattered to deceive results wise? This has been poured over at length on these forums. We were awful to watch…awful. We were an awful team under Ole full stop. No direction…waiting for someone - usually Bruno - to step up.

unless we were counter attacking…then we looked well drilled, compact and dangerous. This is not even debatable.

 

[largelyworried]

I don't think I need to reread it, thanks. I just don't share your optimism that there's a simple effective low risk way of doing that instead that makes it so easy for the GK that it's ridiculous to suggest David de Gea's decision making could possibly be a problem.

So you agree we shouldn't just play it long and you agree there are things we can do to make it easier on De Gea and you agree its not ideal because of the keeper's limitations - you're just continuing to argue about the exact level of confidence one should have in those mitigating factors? You're just being a contrarian, please stop wasting my time.

 

[justsomebloke]

Bruno’s arrival signalled a short period of decent results. The football was tumescent but Bruno added some risk and some gloss.

The rest of the season - are we talking about the behind closed doors stuff where we flattered to deceive results wise? This has been poured over at length on these forums. We were awful to watch…awful. We were an awful team under Ole full stop. No direction…waiting for someone - usually Bruno - to step up.

unless we were counter attacking…then we looked well drilled, compact and dangerous. This is not even debatable.

You think we were awful after the restart in spring 2020? The period where we went undefeated, had the best record in the PL and had a string of blowout wins? OK....

I wouldn't disagree that playing on the break was - and is - a definite strong point of this team, and probably what we do best. That doesn't mean that this was " the only identifiable tactic we had", that "There was no other distinct approach" or that " We were completely and utterly unsuccessful under Ole when not counter attacking ". In point of fact, in 20/21 we scored considerably more goals off established play than we did on the break.

 

[justsomebloke]

So you agree we shouldn't just play it long and you agree there are things we can do to make it easier on De Gea and you agree its not ideal because of the keeper's limitations - you're just continuing to argue about the exact level of confidence one should have in those mitigating factors? You're just being a contrarian, please stop wasting my time.

I do agree with those, yeah. On the other hand, I don't agree on some things which I outline above but which you don't mention there, presumably because doing that would undercut your assertion that I am just being contrarian.

 

[Craig Ward]

Late posting - Still in shock!

Not a perfect performance but something rare happened - we outworked the opposition. I can't even remember the last time that happened. Absolutely landed!

After the first two games, I was a bit worried about the scousers but we outfought them and got the win. What a boost for morale.

Take Maguire out for Varane and we look better at CB - Shock. Martinez was great too - he's a great player and competitor.

My biggest worry is Eriksen central midfield. Yes he's technically better than Fred and McTominey and should start ahead of them both - I just dont trust his engine that deep. He's a great addition to the squad, but Casemiro coming in does solve that somewhat.

If we play on the front foot, high and press and got our forwards on the ball we can trouble anyone. For years we've been reactive and slow on the ball and labouring around so deep inviting pressure, the Liverpool win was a breath of fresh air. Let the forwards run the game

 

[croadyman]

Feels so frustrating that a win over our biggest rivals allows Utd to take their time over key deals for the first XI

 

[bosskeano]

all this fuking talk on the radio shows about how depleted Liverpool were coming into the match but fuk me they had 9 of their regular starting XI on the pitch with Fabinho on the bench who came in and played but klopp chose not to start him

 

[justsomebloke]

all this fuking talk on the radio shows about how depleted Liverpool were coming into the match but fuk me they had 9 of their regular starting XI on the pitch with Fabinho on the bench who came in and played but klopp chose not to start him

Or 8 at least. I would think normally Thiago, Nunez and one of Matip or Konate would be starting.

 

[bosskeano]

Or 8 at least. I would think normally Thiago, Nunez and one of Matip or Konate would be starting.

thought about nunez but considering he's new and Firmino pretty much started all last season, i went with 9 which were the two other mids around Henderson.

definitely have a point about Matip or Konate ahead of Gomez

all in all though....TAA, Robertson, VVD, Salah, Diaz, Allison, Henderson, Firmino are 8 core guys who've been with Klopp so it's not like they rolled out a bunch of scrubs so what does that tell you either about their form or their depth

fuking press trying to take the shine off our victory that should have been 3-1 and give Mr White Buck Teeth an excuse to use

 

[justsomebloke]

thought about nunez but considering he's new and Firmino pretty much started all last season, i went with 9 which were the two other mids around Henderson.

definitely have a point about Matip or Konate ahead of Gomez

all in all though....TAA, Robertson, VVD, Salah, Diaz, Allison, Henderson, Firmino are 8 core guys who've been with Klopp so it's not like they rolled out a bunch of scrubs so what does that tell you either about their form or their depth

fuking press trying to take the shine off our victory that should have been 3-1 and give Mr White Buck Teeth an excuse to use

No, true - agree with your main point there.

Judging from how Firmino has been playing, I don't think we'll be seeing much of him at kick off once Nunez is back from suspension.

 

[bosskeano]

No, true - agree with your main point there.

Judging from how Firmino has been playing, I don't think we'll be seeing much of him at kick off once Nunez is back from suspension.

No chance Firmino starts over Nunez , but like most south americans, he's got a bit of a hot head side to him so his buttons can be pushed