PR Draft QF: EAP/harms vs GSTQ

Who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    15
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

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VS

------------------------------------------ TEAM HARMS/EAP --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TEAM GSTQ --------------------------------------------------------

Formation: 4-3-3

Tactics:

Flexible front 3 with interchanging positions.

Solid defence with good blend of solidity and ball playing ability.
Deschamps as the defensive pivot with two all round B2B CMs in Masopust and Modric. Both are top notch creators from the deep with high workrate and ability to bridge defence and offence.
3 top notch forwards who are flexible and all scoring and creating for each other.

TEAM GSTQ

MAIN FORMATION



Tactical approach - Defend narrowly, hit hard on the counters (especially through the wings). Dominate possession but with aggressive quick transitions from back to front when in possession rather than lingering on the ball for ages.

Special task - Germano starts as a destroyer and is expected to man mark Messi like a shadow wherever he goes. Although he was primarily a CB, he played as a DM often too due to the complete nature of his game, versatility and good passing skills with both feet. A few historians have referred to him as the first Beckenbauer. His versatility of being capable of performing both as a CB and DM made me go this route. He can drop back in defense if one of Maldini and Djalma has to drift significantly wide. That still leaves the midfield with a base of Matthaus and Neeskens which is still pretty great off the ball.

Why was the formation chosen ?

1. In false 9 based formations, the attack is quite centrally oriented, so making the team defend narrowly made a lot of sense to me.
2. It also gives me the opportunity to make sure there is never a numbers disadvantage in midfield. The false 9 diamond is well countered by my own midfield diamond.
3. This also gives Matthaus and Neeskens a lot of freedom to harrass the opponents when in possession without worrying about counters and tracking Messi. Can Deschamps/Modric/Masopust realistically handle Zidane/Matthaus/Neeskens ?
4. Even against a goat attack, Maldini-Figueroa-Djalma is as good a back 3 as it gets.
5. Also, the opponent has only one fullback who can really be classified as a proper width providing wingback. Junior is hardly ideal for this setup.
6. A narrow defense should also force the opponents fullbacks to push high which is something we would want to happen so that we can drag them out and hit them hard on the counters with Dzajic and Finney. The fullbacks' runs forward are expected to be tracked by Neeskens and Matthaus.

What if Edgar doesn't go with Messi as a false 9 and rather plays him on the right wing in a 4-3-3?

The team would then start in a 4-2-3-1 formation as in the below image (kindly update the OP in case Edgar starts Messi on the right)
Style of play - Free flowing attacking foot]
 

BIG DUNK

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The Maldini and Matthäus reinforcement picks were huge, given the quality of his opponent. Great to see two teams so strong out wide too.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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A drab match thread as expected and to be fair, not much to debate about.

But never a bad time to re watch the highlights of this 1966 European Cup game where Best (and Law/Charlton) smashed the Germano led Benfica defense. The 2nd goal from Best is especially excellent (leaves Germano for dead). The 1st goal is a rare George Best header. 4th goal has a beautiful Dennis Law assist from the advanced midfield position that shows his all round game apart from being an elite scorer and the 5th goal is a typical Charlton run into the box and finish (against some shambolic defending with no one tracking him).



P.S: Obligatory defense of my man Germano over here that he was way past his prime at 34 years old. But of course, the game did scare me enough to place him as the LCB instead of RCB.
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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@GodShaveTheQueen you've got me interested in Germano by now, pity there seems to be no match comp (I've looked around).
Yea, I have had to resort only to full matches and have watched pretty much everything.

Have really been disappointed that I couldn't find a single game (not even a full match, just highlights would have been fine as well) where he played in midfield like historians seem to suggest he quite often did (probably in his younger days). Still looked for that only because I have tried to play him as a DM in the past as well, so not a big deal really, he was primarily a great CB and that is where discussion around him should revolve.

I have no clue or interest in making compilations, but @Šjor Bepo or someone else if interested can make a case if I am overrating him like he concluded with his Carlos series. Irrespective of the conclusion, it would be great if one of the in house video creators can make a couple of compilations of him that can lead to some discussions around him and let us have a better consensus on where to place him in the historical rankings.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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it would be great if one of the in house video creators can make a couple of compilations of him that can lead to some discussions around him and let us have a better consensus on where to place him in the historical rankings.
Same with Santamaria really. Used to be a drafts favorite but down in the dumps now, deserves a couple of compilations and discussion that can decide whether he deserves a big drafts comeback.
 

Synco

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Same with Santamaria really. Used to be a drafts favorite but down in the dumps now, deserves a couple of compilations and discussion that can decide whether he deserves a big drafts comeback.
Yeah, would be cool.

I'm a bit of a sucker for CBs, would love to have a better picture of old school greats like Lorant, Popluhar, Germano. Bellini looked seriously good in the 1958 games I've seen. Maybe I'll do such a comp myself sometime, but this ancient grainy footage is a pain to work with.

Speaking of Lorant/footage, I'm reminded of something, will post it in the general discussion thread.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Yea, I have had to resort only to full matches and have watched pretty much everything.

Have really been disappointed that I couldn't find a single game (not even a full match, just highlights would have been fine as well) where he played in midfield like historians seem to suggest he quite often did (probably in his younger days). Still looked for that only because I have tried to play him as a DM in the past as well, so not a big deal really, he was primarily a great CB and that is where discussion around him should revolve.

I have no clue or interest in making compilations, but @Šjor Bepo or someone else if interested can make a case if I am overrating him like he concluded with his Carlos series. Irrespective of the conclusion, it would be great if one of the in house video creators can make a couple of compilations of him that can lead to some discussions around him and let us have a better consensus on where to place him in the historical rankings.
remind me after summer, for now i barely have time to do the ones for myself :(
but mind you, if he is average looking bloke and its hard to spot you gonna have to ask harms or joga, wanted to do a compilation for Holcer but my blindness stopped me....
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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remind me after summer, for now i barely have time to do the ones for myself :(
but mind you, if he is average looking bloke and its hard to spot you gonna have to ask harms or joga, wanted to do a compilation for Holcer but my blindness stopped me....
Pretty distinct with his bald head and wide personality
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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As to GSTQ's team, there is nothing to comment on players or tactical suitability.

The whole both fullbacks being defensive was hashed out in earlier match.
Personally I have a gripe against playing two B2B players together as DMs. though both are top notch to adapt, I feel it still doesn't get the best of both.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Personally I have a gripe against playing two B2B players together as DMs. though both are top notch to adapt, I feel it still doesn't get the best of both.
Usually I agree with this and have brought up the same point multiple times in the past, but you don't really have a proper No. 10 to warrant a proper holder. And your DM is hardly a deep lying playmaker to even make it tough with 3 proper creative midfielders.

Now if Messi started as the false 9, that would have been a whole different ball game and that is why I had 2 formations in place.
 

Enigma_87

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Think it would be a whole different ball game with Messi at F9.

would thrive with Kalle coming from the wing too.

With Messi in this RWF role he’s up against Maldini whilst Best is against Djalma. Scrappy has it pretty well covered by the looks of it.
 

Theon

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Zidane / Neeskens / Matthaus is offensive for a midfield three and I think that trio would work better with a dedicated holding player - both Matthaus and Neeskens are well rounded enough to make it work but it’s still a constraint on their natural game.

Looking at that team presume the end-state is someone like Voronin for Germano and then stick with the Dream Team 3-4-3. Back three is about as good as it gets for that system bar maybe someone like Thuram at RCB.

I think going 1:1 against EAP’s attack would be a big mistake though, as all three are good enough to win their individual battles (and it only has to happen a couple of times a game) so actually prefer this 4-2-3-1.

For EAP the attack is electric, but agree with Enigma the false 9 would be a better bet - for me that’s clearly peak MessI too. The midfield looks functional and balanced, though Masopust is always a player I struggle to know how high to rate. Modric looks central to the build up.

Defence is clearly a level below the counterpart though and can’t see any way that side keeps a clean sheet. Would be a great game to watch. Something like 3-2 to GSTQ.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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but agree with Enigma the false 9 would be a better bet - for me that’s clearly peak MessI too.
Think it would be a whole different ball game with Messi at F9.
Despite the role, Messi was never a traditional right winger. Pitting Messi against Matthaus, Nesskens and Figueroa is definitely not not a better way. Maldini is great vs a traditional winger or even a inverted wide forward, but a free role Messi is simply unique and not coverable.

Plus as mentioned in OP, this is a very flexible formation. I imagine Kalle drifting wide and Messi moving in would happen as part of the game often.
 
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GodShaveTheQueen

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harms

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So @harms if you had been able to continue, what would have been your team for the finals?
Gonçalves/Voronin at DM (Deschamps is a decent stand-in to be fair), probably someone boring at the left (Blokhin/Rensenbrink/Boniek), a Brazilian fullback (ideally I wanted Cafu)…

The rest is up for grabs. Obviously not Terry as McGrath’s partner, maybe someone like Vasović/Belodedici… Baresi is a dream for the reinforcements (rules out Cafu) or Figueroa (rules out Gonçalves -> rules out, ideally, Blokhin). Keeper and another fullback depend on the rest.

Messi 100% stays in the middle though, that was the whole idea — we don’t see many teams built around Messi here and I certainly haven’t built one yet (even though I’ve won one draft with him but I didn’t like that team much).
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Gonçalves/Voronin at DM (Deschamps is a decent stand-in to be fair), probably someone boring at the left (Blokhin/Rensenbrink/Boniek), a Brazilian fullback (ideally I wanted Cafu)…

The rest is up for grabs. Obviously not Terry as McGrath’s partner, maybe someone like Vasović/Belodedici… Baresi is a dream for the reinforcements (rules out Cafu) or Figueroa (rules out Gonçalves -> rules out, ideally, Blokhin). Keeper and another fullback depend on the rest.
Had nearly the same thoughts. Voronin and Blokhin but unable to get either this round. Baresi got blocked by Gerets and had to move too many around to get him in.

Should have just played

Best...Messi....Kalle

and not tinkered around too much.
 

harms

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I’m not sure if Messi & Best are the best combination — unless you’re using the older right wing version with Best as Neymar’s replacement (and that wasn’t the plan).

I’d try to pick someone who would look just as good playing as a second fiddle. Or someone who you at least can downgrade to a supporting player for Messi without your conscious hunting you down later — and Best isn’t that someone.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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I’m not sure if Messi & Best are the best combination — unless you’re using the older right wing version with Best as Neymar’s replacement (and that wasn’t the plan).

I’d try to pick someone who would look just as good playing as a second fiddle. Or someone who you at least can downgrade to a supporting player for Messi without your conscious hunting you down later — and Best isn’t that someone.
Yeah. Went for the shiny name!
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Should have just played

Best...Messi....Kalle

and not tinkered around too much
I actually like the Messi on the right wing team a lot more with Best in the picture (looking individually at your team and not at the match per se). Can't see Best and Messi getting the best out of each other in a false 9 setup.

A young Messi on the right is what I would have preferred in this team (unlike the older one harms suggested). Kalle himself when he played centrally dropped in the hole if I remember correctly from some compilations and would have complimented them well. A young Messi wouldn't take a lot or anything away from Best' natural game as well.

You ran into the wrong fullbacks unfortunately but against a different team, the 4-3-3 was a great way to go in my eyes.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I thought Messi on the right was spot on, and really liked Best/Kalle/Messi a rough approximation of the MSN trio. Best is perfect as a Neymar upgrade and is a very similar profile of player IMO: God-tier dribbler, great with both feet, underrated off-the-ball movement to get on the end of passes. He'd do brilliantly alongside that 2015 version of Messi, particularly with Kalle providing much of the physicality and hustle that Suarez brought to the trio.

It was really the CB partnership that cost Edgar my vote here, as I think I err towards underrating Chumpitaz, and it just looked a bit cobbled together.

The whole both fullbacks being defensive was hashed out in earlier match.
In fairness I feel that Maldini is a significant step up from Marzolini in that regard. I didn't want to completely shit on the Argentine in our match but I saw virtually nothing from him in an attacking sense when I researched him. Maldini's standout qualities in all-time context were clearly his defensive ones, but he was still a competent ball-carrier and passer who liked to get forward.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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In fairness I feel that Maldini is a significant step up from Marzolini in that regard. I didn't want to completely shit on the Argentine in our match but I saw virtually nothing from him in an attacking sense when I researched him. Maldini's standout qualities in all-time context were clearly his defensive ones, but he was still a competent ball-carrier and passer who liked to get forward.
Agree on Maldini and to be honest I don't get this obsession with attacking fullbacks when the rest of the team is so attack minded including a libero. And as I indicated in the last game, Maldini-Djalma with Figueroa is not very different to Maldini-Tassotti with Baresi, the fullbacks in what is widely considered to be among the top 2-3 club sides of all time.
 

Physiocrat

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Agree on Maldini and to be honest I don't get this obsession with attacking fullbacks when the rest of the team is so attack minded including a libero. And as I indicated in the last game, Maldini-Djalma with Figueroa is not very different to Maldini-Tassotti with Baresi, the fullbacks in what is widely considered to be among the top 2-3 club sides of all time.
The question here I think is how attack minded was Figueroa. Most times I have seen him he was much less attacking than Baresi.

On Maldini, he is much better going forward than he is given credit for although I think that is mostly due to his offensive game not being as good as his GOAT defensive game.
 

Jim Beam

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The question here I think is how attack minded was Figueroa. Most times I have seen him he was much less attacking than Baresi.
Will go against the grain here and I didn't watch him that much. However, he was far away from someone like Beckenbauer and Baresi was far more assured as a defender from what I saw.


Just a masterclass in defensive positioning and it took two long range goals to best the Chilean defense with Figueroa in impeccable form.
Joga will mind probably, but just an example. You could argue he was a one man defence for Chile at times (although, am not sure how can you say that here when the whole Chile was defending). The feck ups at 0:37, 01:45 and 03:37 is out of Maguire book.

edit: ok, that's maybe not him at 03:37, not sure
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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The question here I think is how attack minded was Figueroa. Most times I have seen him he was much less attacking than Baresi.
Sure and that can be debated, but the notion that a good football team can't de created without even one attacking fullback is wrong IMO.

I don't think even a Beckenbauer is needed. As long as the front 6 are all attack minded and the defenders are capable of linking the ball with the midfield and to the wingers it's more than good enough. And all of Figueroa, Germano, Maldini and Djalma were capable of that.

How will you defend against goat attacks if you have 7-8 players that are attack minded?
 

Physiocrat

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Sure and that can be debated, but the notion that a good football team can't de created without even one attacking fullback is wrong IMO.

I don't think even a Beckenbauer is needed. As long as the front 6 are all attack minded and the defenders are capable of linking the ball with the midfield and to the wingers it's more than good enough. And all of Figueroa, Germano, Maldini and Djalma were capable of that.

How will you defend against goat attacks if you have 7-8 players that are attack minded?
I'm not against your back 4 here, I just didn't buy the midfield. Matthaus alongside Tardelli I would buy at a pinch, but Matthaus alongside a really attacking B2B I don't (maybe Sjor's compilations were misrepresentative but Neeskens look a very attacking 100 mile an hour player)

With attacking contribution from FB the argument I would be thinking of would be one of variety rather than having 7 or 8 players attacking. Having players who can attack well but not always doing so increases the possibility of surprise.

I do agree though with the GOAT attacks here you do need full-backs whoncan defend well. Also for what it's worth, Djalma would provide more going forward today than he did behind Garrincha.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I just didn't buy the midfield. Matthaus alongside Tardelli I would buy at a pinch, but Matthaus alongside a really attacking B2B I don't (maybe Sjor's compilations were misrepresentative but Neeskens look a very attacking 100 mile an hour player)
I think like Maldini but vice versa, Matthaus's all round B2B nature and attacking game shuns his defensive greatness. This is the same man who shut out Platini and Maradona in world cups in the biggest of stages in the semis and final.

But even then, I do agree that the midfield can be more rounded maybe with a No.10 with good defensive contribution. Maybe a Charlton or a Nedved would be perfect. I would prefer not to drop either of the midfielders unless there is no other option as I really like it. Their attacking nature compliments well with my more solid approach in defense.
 

Jim Beam

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On a more serious note, integrity with voting that @harms , @Physiocrat and @Michaelf7777777 consistently show (IMO) makes me look forward to their votes every game. Not a quality in abundance as I have proclaimed unpopularly over the years.
Pissing :lol: Amazing, never change
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Pissing :lol: Amazing, never change
I believe you have made your stance known about my integrity enough times in enough threads mate. I hope you can resist the temptation going ahead. Not arguing against your opinion, just trying to see if this can be less hostile.

For what it's worth, physio did vote against me this game and probably before as well but I would never question his vote. So it was a genuine compliment and not a hope to price his vote in future games (but let's not get into it as you have a stance you probably would stick by and am not going to try to change it) . Same with Michael who votes fairly (IMO) every game even if he gets knocked out which is nice to see.
 

Jim Beam

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I believe you have made your stance known about my integrity enough times in enough threads mate. I hope you can resist the temptation going ahead. Not arguing against your opinion, just trying to see if this can be less hostile.

For what it's worth, physio did vote against me this game and probably before as well but I would never question his vote. So it was a genuine compliment and not a hope to price his vote in future games (but let's not get into it as you have a stance you probably would stick by and am not going to try to change it) . Same with Michael who votes fairly (IMO) every game even if he gets knocked out which is nice to see.
Yeah, you don't want to go in that rabbit hole.

The votes you gave me for I have a problem actually. If you wanna talk about less hostile, then it is your amazing ability to pull the team together (probably only compared to Gio), but don't go into integrity votes. Take care.