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Pre Premier League Draft - Quarter Finals - BeforeKeane vs. Enigma/TRV

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?


  • Total voters
    28
  • Poll closed .

Enigma_87

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Good, spirited debate in here so far :D. Voted BKTWR for now. I like the opposition's Ardiles/Thijssen/Brady midfield in its own right, but strangely feel like it would function better in a wider draft pool that would allow for a more possession-based overall setup. As it is I can see them getting overrun by that Molby/Robson/McDermott juggernaut, who would probably establish a decisive level of control. I fecking love Brady though, and he could easily turn the game around with a moment of magic.
This is a bit of misconception mate. Especially in modern game you have players like Xavi, Modric, de Bruyne, Scholes, Silva, Xavi Alonso, Pirlo - etc etc, running games. For one with all the talk about possession we have to look at what BKTWR will do on the ball and whether he'll get more alleys for goal than us. And that I just can't see it, he's sacrificing firepower to get more control in midfield and surely where he gets an advantage at a time he loses an edge somewhere else on the pitch.

Besides with Sheedy, Lineker and Francis we have perfect setup for hitting him on the counter - and especially with passers like Thijssen, Ardiles and Brady in the middle.

His focal point is the middle of the pitch where we have enough bodies to counter him and get the ball back, whilst we have advantage both in defence and attack.
 

Enigma_87

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Speaking about Brady:


^^ and the goal against Spurs - at 1:17 - gets the possession back, sprints across the whole pitch and delivers a perfect assist. :drool:
 

The Red Viper

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Some things are opinions but those two... elite? Not a chance.

How is Thijssen elite? Because of his four years and a few goals for Ipswich?

Ardiles? For a few (full) seasons for Spurs and even less goals, when he wasn't even the best midfielder in the team.

They managed to have a decent few years in teams that suited their ability and against even matchups. Here they're against the best midfielder in the draft, McDermott (brilliant) and Molby (a Rolls Royce of a player)..... any two of them would have a field day against Ardiles/Thijssen but the THREE of them??!!!
I don't know why you keep bringing goals up.

Lampard has scored more goals than Zidane and Iniesta. Is he a better player?

Anyway, Thijssen is elite because he was a key player in that Ipswich team which won an UEFA Cup, FA Cup and finished runners-up in the league twice. Scored a goal in each leg of UEFA Cup Final. ;) Won the FWA Footballer of the year award.

As for Ossie, well yeah, he wasn't the best midfielder in his team. But neither were Terry Mac or Big Jan. :)

Here's Sir Bobby Charlton gushing about him:-

 
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Good, spirited debate in here so far :D. Voted BKTWR for now. I like the opposition's Ardiles/Thijssen/Brady midfield in its own right, but strangely feel like it would function better in a wider draft pool that would allow for a more possession-based overall setup. As it is I can see them getting overrun by that Molby/Robson/McDermott juggernaut, who would probably establish a decisive level of control. I fecking love Brady though, and he could easily turn the game around with a moment of magic.
Totally agree. To be fair, rather than simply be dismissive, you'll note in my op that I said Brady is a threat and could do something great to get a goal? (BUT I think the variety of goal scoring threats means we outscore them). I am trying to be balanced? (as opposed to comments like "Ardiles and Thijssen are elite").
Perhaps the United experts can advise? Was the variation in McClair’s return more to do with his role? I know he played in midfield a lot and moreso later in his career.
At Celtic and early United, he was a goal machine but he also shared the space at United with Hughes and Cantona and we had other players pushing up too (two B2B midfielders... just like this side). We weren't a one man, one dimensional team.

McClair got less personal goals but we became a team with lots of scoring options so difficult to contain (like this team) and we won stuff. Shows McClairs versatility and his ability to adapt and play as part of a team.... he scored loads but unlike some strikers there was more to him.
 
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@Jim Beam good evening.

For your info, you posted in round 1 game .... "you'll probably go nuts for even questioning that duo, but I'm just wondering are Robson and Mcdermott an ideal pairing as brilliant as they were. Considering their stamina, lungs and ability to run all over the pitch I can see them covering most of the field but didn't both of them like to get some security behind which will free them in their forward runs from the deep."

Added Molby to do just that (and more)... better?
 

Enigma_87

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@enigma @The Red Viper ..who's commenting? Both of you?
I was replying to Pat, whilst TRV was onto the midfield I think.

Didn't want to speak for him, since that "elite" midfield argument became before I came on, but surely you can't discount the effect Thijssen, Ardiles and Brady had on their teams, regardless of whether they were the top dogs or not.

Many Spurs fans consider Ardiles one of their best players ever alongside the aforementioned Hoddle and few can argue that he's one of the best midfielders in this draft alongside Souness, Robson, etc.

Now for Brady I think you can easily say the same and that he was one of the outstanding players of his time and defined Arsenal in the 70's.

Thijssen also comes with sound credentials and also being named player of the year during the time Souness, Robson, etc also played their trade there.

If you want to check a more technical midfield at the time - the one with Thijssen, Muhren and Wark in it, here is how they fared against United and Pool midfields:

13 Oct 1979 Ipswich Town v Liverpool L 1-2 League Division One
23 Feb 1980 Liverpool v Ipswich Town D 1-1 League Division One
11 Oct 1980 Liverpool v Ipswich Town D 1-1 League Division One
13 Dec 1980 Ipswich Town v Liverpool D 1-1 League Division One
12 Sep 1981 Ipswich Town v Liverpool W 2-0 League Division One
06 Feb 1982 Liverpool v Ipswich Town L 4-0 League Division One
02 Oct 1982 Ipswich Town v Liverpool W 1-0 League Division One

7 games of which Ipswich won 2, lost 2 and drew 3 against Pool.

20 Oct 1979 Manchester United v Ipswich Town L 1-0 League Division One
01 Mar 1980 Ipswich Town v Manchester United W 6-0 League Division One
18 Oct 1980 Ipswich Town v Manchester United D 1-1 League Division One
21 Mar 1981 Manchester United v Ipswich Town L 2-1 League Division One
05 Sep 1981 Manchester United v Ipswich Town W 1-2 League Division One
20 Apr 1982 Ipswich Town v Manchester United W 2-1 League Division One
11 Sep 1982 Manchester United v Ipswich Town L 3-1 League Division One

7 games vs United - won 3, lost 3, drew 1.

Against Pool they usually met Souness/Mac midfield as well.

It's not like it's a small sample size and Thijssen and Ipswich midfield seems to do pretty well against Pool and United midfields, without being overran as it was suggested and being generally an equal battle.

Obviously Wark and Muhren are excellent midfielders, but Brady and Ardiles are also simply better at their peak - hence I don't believe with the notion that our midfield would be overran or is that far from yours mate.

Note for accuracy: 79/till the summer of 82' Muhren and Thijssen played for Ipswich,whilst in that 82 Summer Muhren moved to United.
 

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@Jim Beam good evening.

For your info, you posted in round 1 game .... "you'll probably go nuts for even questioning that duo, but I'm just wondering are Robson and Mcdermott an ideal pairing as brilliant as they were. Considering their stamina, lungs and ability to run all over the pitch I can see them covering most of the field but didn't both of them like to get some security behind which will free them in their forward runs from the deep."

Added Molby to do just that (and more)... better?
Cheers, not only better but probably one of the top midfield combos in terms of this draft imo. Hard to see them being dominated by anyone. Still, have to properly read the whole discussion and Enigma;RV Brady/Lineker partnership is also great.

Will vote by tomorrow.

Btw. out of curiosity who was the other striker you had in the first round?
 
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Cheers, not only better but probably one of the top midfield combos in terms of this draft imo. Hard to see them being dominated by anyone. Still, have to properly read the whole discussion and Enigma;RV Brady/Lineker partnership is also great.

Will vote by tomorrow.

Btw. out of curiosity who was the other striker you had in the first round?
Mick Channon. Good forward too but McClair had the goals, versatility and proven interaction with Robson.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Obviously Wark and Muhren are excellent midfielders, but Brady and Ardiles are also simply better at their peak
Well, I was agreeing till that....

That Ipswich midfield was far more flexible than yours imo. You had Wark behind and Gates ahead who regularly interchanged. Not saying you are wrong, but just that it was a different dynamic. I like Ardiles and don't really buy that he was not the best midfielder...but still....it's with your tactics, not the player I have concerns.
 
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Terry McDermott

To quote that football guru @Gio (round.1) - "Thought McDermott was top banana and a really under-appreciated player".

  • Key part of probably Liverpool’s best era (mid 70s - early 80s). The attacking foil to Souness’ defensive game (better player than him) and the link to the attack
  • 5 League Titles (in 7 seasons), 3 European Cup wins, 1 UEFA Cup win and 2 League Cup wins
  • 1980 : PFA Team of the year, PFA Players Player of the year, FWA Player of the year!
Now I've already said Brady is a top player and capable of doing something in a game but growing up watching 70s/80s football, I know he wasn't unique and there were better all-round players.

We might get shown his goal of the season (nice strike) but McDermott scored wonder goals too plus a lot more total goals per season. Don't take my word for it though....... enjoy. :drool:

Here he is scoring the opener versus Ipswich (Thijssen et al), 0.46


An example of his amazing engine, heads it home like a No.9 after a 70 yard run.


Here he is showing his individual ability with a brilliant Cantonaesque goal! Goal of the season 1980. Yes that's Hoddle with his head in his hands.... no idea where Ardiles was.


Here he is again showing his close control and inventiveness in an F A Cup semi. Goal of the season 1977


Here he is scoring an amazing goal v Aberdeen - a chip of a moving ball on the run! Feck me, that's a good finish.


Here he is scoring the opener in the European Cup Final. 0.10 in

 

Enigma_87

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Well, I was agreeing till that....

That Ipswich midfield was far more flexible than yours imo. You had Wark behind and Gates ahead who regularly interchanged. Not saying you are wrong, but just that it was a different dynamic. I like Ardiles and don't really buy that he was not the best midfielder...but still....it's with your tactics, not the player I have concerns.
We obviously aren't making a remake of that Ipswich midfield and my point was that we're not losing quality there, but on the opposite, Thijssen is paired with better individual players than Muhren and Wark, and of course the mechanics are different.

But then again - Brady was regularly dropping deep and fully capable of dispossessing players and starting attacks from deep. Sheedy is also known for his work rate and the ability to drop back and help the midfield. We also have a spare CB in this match up who could either meet a CM braking loose or cover for one of the full backs as BKTWR is playing with only McClair up front.

The one notion I completely disagree from the off is that somehow it's perceived a big advantage in the middle of the park having tough tackling midfielders instead of technical ones. If that was the case you'd easily dominate a City midfield composed of Silva and De Bruyne, yet that is rarely the case is it? Besides, with the possession in mind as a main asset, are BKTWR players suited for possession game and getting the most of the situations when they are on the ball?

Can they capitalize on that possession, considering their main attacking asset comes from center of midfield and playing with a withdrawn striker?

On the other hand our tactics are pretty simple. We as well can saturate the midfield with Sheedy and Brady dropping when off the ball making it hard for the opposition midfield to find space, whilst having players like Thijssen, Brady and Ardiles in the middle, who are excellent in transition and can launch counter attacks swiftly and effectively.

Then when we're in possession we have 5 technical players in the center and on the wings who are well suited to retain possession and are technically top notch to communicate and pass the ball to each other.

Having midfielders that are on the same wavelength is somehow perceived as an disadvantage rather than advantage which is IMO kinda perplexing notion to begin with. :confused:
 

Indnyc

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Can they capitalize on that possession, considering their main attacking asset comes from center of midfield and playing with a withdrawn striker?
Think you guys are underrating Robertson on the left.. The guy was the best player of the greatest Nottingham team of all time.. I understand the notion of having McGrain there offsets him somewhat but I don’t think any defender can keep him quiet for the whole 90 minutes.

Whilst I agree with the fact that hard tackling midfielders aren’t necessarily better than technical ones, it isn’t worse. Depends on the personal and I do think @BeforeKeanetherewasRobson has a slight edge there which is offset by the striker you guys have
 

Enigma_87

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Think you guys are underrating Robertson on the left.. The guy was the best player of the greatest Nottingham team of all time.. I understand the notion of having McGrain there offsets him somewhat but I don’t think any defender can keep him quiet for the whole 90 minutes.

Whilst I agree with the fact that hard tackling midfielders aren’t necessarily better than technical ones, it isn’t worse. Depends on the personal and I do think @BeforeKeanetherewasRobson has a slight edge there which is offset by the striker you guys have
Nah, I'm certainly not underrating him mate. I've mentioned in the last game that he's one of the best left wingers in the draft along with Barnes. However here he has a defensive minded full back behind him, compared to Sansom in the last draft match and he's up against McGrain. Whilst Robertson has indeed sound credentials, McGrain was considered one of the best right backs in the game during the 70's(it's not like he didn't have competition either) and is regular participant in all time drafts - hence deservedly high rated by the draft community.

It's not like it's a wild estimation that without a proper full back support him and McGrain would cancel themselves out.

As for the midfield - sure I agree that BKTWR has a slight edge in midfield, due to the individuals and as a sum of parts, but that doesn't offset the advantage we have both in attack and defence. Neither that if he capitalizes on the battle for possession it's not exactly a setup that thrives on possession based game - rather than direct one.

If anything his personnel and gameplan is more suited to finding space on the break, rather than breaking us down with 8-9 players behind the ball.
 

Indnyc

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Nah, I'm certainly not underrating him mate. I've mentioned in the last game that he's one of the best left wingers in the draft along with Barnes. However here he has a defensive minded full back behind him, compared to Sansom in the last draft match and he's up against McGrain. Whilst Robertson has indeed sound credentials, McGrain was considered one of the best right backs in the game during the 70's(it's not like he didn't have competition either) and is regular participant in all time drafts - hence deservedly high rated by the draft community.

It's not like it's a wild estimation that without a proper full back support him and McGrain would cancel themselves out.

As for the midfield - sure I agree that BKTWR has a slight edge in midfield, due to the individuals and as a sum of parts, but that doesn't offset the advantage we have both in attack and defence. Neither that if he capitalizes on the battle for possession it's not exactly a setup that thrives on possession based game - rather than direct one.

If anything his personnel and gameplan is more suited to finding space on the break, rather than breaking us down with 8-9 players behind the ball.
Don’t disagree with McGrains defensive skills. He is rightly considered one of the best. I just wanted to point out as you rightly said that Robertson is a big threat as well and McGrain will have his hands full to keep him quiet. It may not necessarily be a completely even battle but that is down to preferences
 

oneniltothearsenal

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I think McGrain is the type of fullback that Robertson would have the most joy against stylistically.
 
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John Robertson

Plenty of teams dismissed Robertson and he made them all look foolish. There was a very good reason that Clough used to say 'When you get the ball, just give it to the fat lad on the left'.

A feint one way then a quick dart the other and he was either cutting in for a shot or skinned the FB and putting in perfect crosses. And like the vast majority of this team, he proved it at the highest levels.
  • League Champion
  • Two League Cup Winners medals including a final winner
  • Back to back European Cup winner, starring in both
  • 79 - scored in quarter final, semi final, set up winner in final
  • 80 - scored in quarter final, semi final and winner in final
  • Consistent goals across seasons to add to great wing play
  • 18 in 1978, 16 in 79, 19 in 80 - phenomenal for a winger?
Comes in off his wing.... wins the European Cup Final


Stays on the wing, lays a European Cup winner on a plate


Collection.... if he's getting no joy outside, he cuts inside, like the goal at Wembley (0:54 in)


Great player. I get McGrain is an excellent fullback but there's no chance he's keeping a winger like Robertson quiet for the entire 90 minutes.
 
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And on the right wing ..... Trevor Steven
  • Everton : 2 League titles, F A Cup win, ECWC win (scored in semi and final)
  • Rangers (in draft time period) : 2 League titles, 1 Cup win
Like Robertson, Steven can go down the touchline or come inside. The pair of them are going to stretch the opposition's defence all over the place, as well as adding a clear goal threat.

Toffeeweb. "£300,000 was a considerable transfer fee for a 19-year-old footballer in 1983. Nevertheless, the 19-year-old in question was a player of considerable talent and potential – Trevor Steven, a quiet north-easterner who had been impressing Kendall for two years at Burnley before the Everton boss finally took the plunge and signed him. (NB. Kendall said one of his best ever buys, not surprising since he scored/set up so many goals)."

The attributes Kendall liked in the young winger were the kind of pace and ball control that could leave defenders floundering and a powerful shot. As Everton revived in the spring of 1984, Steven made a telling contribution to the triumphant FA Cup campaign. His was the cross which Andy Gray buried to make the score 2-0 in the Final, and finish off a spirited Watford challenge.

The next season, he helped Everton blaze their way to the League Championship and European Cup-Winners' Cup. Steven preferred the right wing, but was effective down either flank and indeed capable enough to deputise as a striker, as he did in the first leg of the Cup-Winners' Cup semi-final v. Bayern Munich in Germany.

After an excellent few seasons with Everton, he joined the English revolution at Rangers and endeared himself to a whole new audience.

Like Robertson (and Robson.... and McDermott .... Etc etc), he did it in key games against top opposition (see 1:20 below, lovely finish) - the first goal vs Bayern to set them on the way in the final. Just a cool, gifted player and another excellent multi dimensional midfielder in this team.

 

Enigma_87

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Don’t disagree with McGrains defensive skills. He is rightly considered one of the best. I just wanted to point out as you rightly said that Robertson is a big threat as well and McGrain will have his hands full to keep him quiet. It may not necessarily be a completely even battle but that is down to preferences
Yeah of course mate, it's down to preference, but without the support of proper attacking full back McGrain has an easier job on his hands, which works in our favor.

I really don't think BKTWR has the right personnel for possession game which he wants to achieve here and would be far more dangerous playing on counter.

For one his game style suits our game much better having a lot of players great in transition.
 

Enigma_87

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England’s Greatest Striker: Gary Lineker

Centre forwards will always be seen as the talisman. They are players whose job it is to put the ball in the back of the net and with that comes more glory and adulation than any other individual on the pitch, as well as greater scrutiny and criticism, whether we like it or not.

The striker can become a hero in an instant or a villain in a heartbeat and more often than not is the player we all dream of being when we are having a kick about in the street, park or for our local sides. Whether it’s the foraging No.9, whose job is to pounce on any potential opportunity that comes his way, thriving on any chance they can capitalise on, or maybe the more creative No.10 who is seen as the conductor or the hard-working provider for the front line – we all have our favourites both now and in the past.

You may not agree with the players on our list and you may feel your favourite striker is not represented; but what you can’t deny is that these five English strikers are all natural born goal scorers who have gone down in folklore for their undeniable ability to find the back of the net at a frightening rate, for club, for country, or both.

Gary Lineker
Date of Birth: 30 November 1960

Place of Birth: Leicester

Clubs played for: Leicester City, Everton, Barcelona, Tottenham Hotspur, Nagoya Grampus Eight

Appearances: 567

Goals: 281

To most young football fans nowadays, Gary Lineker is renowned for his hosting Match of the Day every Saturday night. Well, that and the crisp adverts. But to those of an older persuasion, he also represents striking excellence.

Before punditry and marketing and his maintaining a vibrant social media presence, Lineker was a striker of the highest quality. His goal scoring exploits took him to Catalonia and Japan as he won titles abroad, but regardless of his changes in location, his productivity never wavered.

While at school, one of his teachers had written on a report card that he spent too much time focusing on football, a pastime that would not enable him to earn a living. Fortunately, Lineker paid no attention, going on to become one of the finest strikers of his generation, and the best English striker of all time.

Style
Lineker was an English striker who veered far from convention. He wasn’t particularly physical, and his shots weren’t laced with power. Instead, he relied upon his technical and mental characteristics to find the net. He was, quintessentially, brain over brawn.

Often found lingering on the shoulder of the last man, his positional sense and concentration were second to none. As a result he was able to find space in even the tightest of penalty boxes; getting on the end of crosses to bag innumerable tap-ins, his job may have seemed easy, but that’s only because he made it look so.

An opportunist with a sophisticated touch, Lineker was nimble, fast of thought and foot, and an unerringly precise finisher. One chance was all he needed, and his ability to deceive defences to create room for those chances saw him aptly earn the nickname ‘El Matador’ during his time playing for Barcelona.



Achievements
Lineker came through Leicester’s youth academy, making his first-team debut for the club at the age of 19 while they were still in the second division. He began to play a more important role in the 1979-80 season, scoring three league goals to help the Foxes to promotion, but it wasn’t until the club had been relegated once again that he imposed himself as a regular.

1981-82 was Lineker’s breakout year. He bagged 17 goals in 39 league games, showcasing a burgeoning knack for being in the right place at the right time. The next season he once again helped Leicester to promotion, only this time he was fundamental rather than a mere squad player. And, over the next two seasons, he would score 46 goals in 80 outings before moving on to reigning champions Everton in an £800,000 deal.

His time with the Toffees was brief but beautiful; Lineker thrived atop a winning team, adding extra pace and guile to Howard Kendall’s side. Following his retirement from the game Lineker would retain an affinity for the club on account of his enjoyable year on Merseyside, a year that included his topping the scoring charts with 30 goals to his name.

However, silverware eluded him and, after winning the Golden Boot at the 1986 World Cup, he moved on to La Liga giants Barcelona for a fee of £2.8million. The move abroad also allowed him a chance to perform on the continental stage, with English clubs banned from European competition following the Heysel disaster.

Lineker’s intelligence helped him on and off the pitch in Catalonia. He adapted to the culture with comfort, learning the language so as to communicate effectively with his team-mates. An incredibly headstrong individual, he was primed for the challenge of playing in foreign climes and he would adapt instantly to the Spanish game, bulging the net 20 times in 41 league appearances in his maiden campaign.

In his second term he hit double figures once again, helping Barcelona to victory in the Copa del Rey, however the arrival of Johann Cruyff as manager saw him fielded on the right wing, a position he was unused to and not delighted to fulfil.

A return to English football beckoned and, spurning Manchester United’s advances, he signed for Tottenham, reuniting with Terry Venables, who had coached him in his first year with Barcelona. He once again finished top scorer in the league with 24 to his name in 1989-90. He then helped England to the semi-finals of the 1990 World Cup with five goals, and had two more exceptional seasons with Tottenham before moving to Japan.

While his trophy haul was limited, Lineker top-scored in the English first division three times, succeeded abroad, and was his country’s key striker at a time when there was plenty of competition for the role.



Best Goals
While highly productive, the most aesthetically pleasing moments of Lineker’s goals were not his actual finishes, but his movement in the build-up. Consequently, it’s perhaps more fitting to select a hugely significant hat-trick he scored in his first season with Barcelona.

In a clásico against Real Madrid, he found the net thrice to seal a 3-2 win for his team in one of world football’s most epic clashes. And each goal was a signature of the player himself.

The first was a tap-in following a clever run behind a defender to get on the end of a cross; his second was a rebound into an unguarded net following a spilled shot, and his third saw him capitalise on a defensive error to outfox the goalkeeper in a one-on-one situation. That performance was Lineker in a nutshell: cunning, fast and ruthlessly efficient.

Verdict
Perhaps the highest compliment that can be paid to Lineker is that he would have thrived in any era. His style, one predicated on intelligence, would have found a way regardless of the circumstances. Not for him was the game a macho pursuit, rather it was a rational process of deduction: ‘If the defender is here, where must I be to score?’

And on top of the footballer, or perhaps underpinning it, was a winning personality. An empathetic individual capable of laughing at himself and fully aware of the occasional absurdity of football, he represented the best this beautiful game has to offer both in ability and in attitude. For all of this, he must go down as England’s greatest ever striker.
 
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There seems to be a case of adding 2 and 2 and getting 5 regards the midfield.

Apparently, I'm after a possession based game for my midfield. No I'm not, I just see this midfield/team having more possession but I've been pretty clear in words and op formation that this will result in accurate, direct attacks.

I think this side (mainly because of the midfield set up, which individually and collectively outmatches the opposition) will have more possession but I'm not looking for a Barca/City style of game. I'm simply saying we'll have more possession (and more chances, shots, goals).

Liverpool in the 70s/80s had more possession but they weren't a team who played tippy tappy short passes/wore a team down - they simply had more possession then used it, quickly, effectively.

United in the 90s had more possession because of the quality of midfield/team but they didn't arse about with neat triangles. They attacked, at speed, from a variety of areas - midfield direct, wingers wide, wingers cutting in.... as this side would do.

The central midfielders are top top class but with Molby behind them as well, they can attack and score (as they did throughout their careers) and hand on heart, I see them as the best midfield in the draft.
 

Enigma_87

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There seems to be a case of adding 2 and 2 and getting 5 regards the midfield.

Apparently, I'm after a possession based game for my midfield. No I'm not, I just see this midfield/team having more possession but I've been pretty clear in words and op formation that this will result in accurate, direct attacks.

I think this side (mainly because of the midfield set up, which individually and collectively outmatches the opposition) will have more possession but I'm not looking for a Barca/City style of game. I'm simply saying we'll have more possession (and more chances, shots, goals).

Liverpool in the 70s/80s had more possession but they weren't a team who played tippy tappy short passes/wore a team down - they simply had more possession then used it, quickly, effectively.

United in the 90s had more possession because of the quality of midfield/team but they didn't arse about with neat triangles. They attacked, at speed, from a variety of areas - midfield direct, wingers wide, wingers cutting in.... as this side would do.

The central midfielders are top top class but with Molby behind them as well, they can attack and score (as they did throughout their careers) and hand on heart, I see them as the best midfield in the draft.
It is what it is mate. We've seen LvG's United and even Mourinho's United troubling to break teams when we have more possession than the opposition. If you are looking to have more possession as your gameplan it comes with that baggage what you will do with the ball and how you will break the opposition. Having 70% possession(not that it will happen IMO) doesn't even mean your side will have more chances, shots, goals, etc.We even have less chances and shots on goal than some of the sides that play on counter with inferior midfields.

You will deal with tighter space and not enough firepower up front with a withdrawn striker and the biggest goal threat coming from behind.

I'm not implying tiki taka either, but in order to find space and create chances off your possession play you need those technical players who can operate in tight spaces and give key passes putting the ball behind our defenders. That and having proper attacking full backs on both sides who would stretch the flanks and open up space in the middle.

As things stand we will saturate the middle and we have excellent defensive full backs in McGrain and Winterburn to contain the threat wide. The major goalscoring threat in Robson and Mac would have the same space in a possession based game, neither they are suited to this approach.

If anything our midfield with Brady is much more suited to possession play and trying to unlock the opposition, rather than your side.

The beautiful think with complete midfielders as Ardiles, Thijssen and Brady is that they are well capable of playing possession and direct approach, and given their expertize and passing range it's easier for us to make our plan work - saturate the middle, get the ball back and launch quick counters in space.

Thus creating more clear chances for our forwards, who also have the edge in goalscoring ability.
 
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Enigma quote.

"If anything our midfield with Brady is much more suited to possession play and trying to unlock the opposition, rather than your side.

The beautiful think with complete midfielders as Ardiles, Thijssen and Brady is that they are well capable of playing possession and direct approach, and given their expertize and passing range it's easier for us to make our plan work - saturate the middle, get the ball back and launch quick counters in space.

Thus creating more clear chances for our forwards, who also have the edge in goalscoring ability."

(1) if your team had more possession they MIGHT have a chance, but they wont

(2) It doesnt matter how many times you say 'BKTWRs main threat is up against McGrain' ... it's not some religious mantra that you can brainwash voters with. One, Robertson is one of many threats and two even McGrain won't stop Robertson for 90 minutes. Robertson has proven himself against top opposition in huge matches and come out glorious.
  • Robertson : 18 (1978), 16 (79), 19 (80) including a European Cup Final winner
  • McDermott : 16 (1980), 22 (81), 20 (82) including a European Cup Final opener
  • Robson : 15 (1983), 18 (84), 14 (85) including so many wonder goals, I’ve lost count!
  • Steven : 15 (1984/85) including goals in the ECWC semi v Bayern and opener in the final
When push came to shove, my midfield showed up against top opposition and in big games. Yours did...... what exactly? No one doubts Brady was a lovely player to watch, but be fair, what did he do come big games like his European final (loss)? What did the others do apart form Thijssen?

This level of game reflects the top opposition and in reality, my team won it all and got the T Shirt.

(3) When I mention goals, you say it's not about goals but you can push Lineker? To quote a famous commentator Goals Win Games but being as you've mentioned it, in the criteria of this draft, McClair has scored more goals than Lineker, your main threat.

(4) Thijssen and Ardiles are complete midfielders :lol:, you're having a laugh. As I'm balanced, even I would say Robson wasn't perfect and he's clearly better than either of them.
 

Pat_Mustard

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This is a bit of misconception mate. Especially in modern game you have players like Xavi, Modric, de Bruyne, Scholes, Silva, Xavi Alonso, Pirlo - etc etc, running games. For one with all the talk about possession we have to look at what BKTWR will do on the ball and whether he'll get more alleys for goal than us. And that I just can't see it, he's sacrificing firepower to get more control in midfield and surely where he gets an advantage at a time he loses an edge somewhere else on the pitch.

Besides with Sheedy, Lineker and Francis we have perfect setup for hitting him on the counter - and especially with passers like Thijssen, Ardiles and Brady in the middle.

His focal point is the middle of the pitch where we have enough bodies to counter him and get the ball back, whilst we have advantage both in defence and attack.
Brady is the best ball player on the pitch imo, but Ardiles and Thijssen aren't better in that department than BKTWR's trio, who bring other attributes to the table on top of that. I agree that your wide attackers are tailor-made for swift, incisive counter-attacks, and that Lineker is perfectly comfortable in that setup too, but I don't think your midfield is suited to soaking up pressure at all. Numbers alone isn't enough to stop Robbo and McDermott, and the difficulty in facing that sort of rampaging goal threat from midfield is that your back four often can't pick them up until it's too late.

I'd take Lineker over McClair any day of course, but I'm not sure you've got a decisive edge in quality elsewhere. Robertson is the pick of the wingers, albeit against the best full back on the pitch. In defence, neither goalkeeper is top-notch but I'd give Grobbelaar the edge. I'd go with a full back each in Irwin and McGrain, and if I was building a CB pairing I'd go with one of Todd/O' Leary and one of Walker/Hunter for balance. I thought Todd would be more highly rated in this draft tbh, as he has a great reputation and had a superb range of passing, particularly given this pool's reputation for more 'agricultural' defenders.
 
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Bryan Robson

I don't even know where to start....

Midfield general, amazing engine, times tackles, B2B, poacher (think Barca), great shot (think Liverpool cup semi replay), great header, desire to win, sometimes almost single-handedly dragged United through games, the best United leader I have ever seen, truly Captain Marvel.

If ever you needed a player to "show up" against top, top opposition, this was it. One of the greatest individual performances I have ever seen


The first semi v liverpool in 85... another key goal


The replay.....another key (and brilliant) goal :drool:


Great compilation, particularly like the goal at 0:26. Started, finished.


Simply the best British midfielder I have ever seen.
 

Enigma_87

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Enigma quote.

"If anything our midfield with Brady is much more suited to possession play and trying to unlock the opposition, rather than your side.

The beautiful think with complete midfielders as Ardiles, Thijssen and Brady is that they are well capable of playing possession and direct approach, and given their expertize and passing range it's easier for us to make our plan work - saturate the middle, get the ball back and launch quick counters in space.

Thus creating more clear chances for our forwards, who also have the edge in goalscoring ability."

(1) if your team had more possession they MIGHT have a chance, but they wont

(2) It doesnt matter how many times you say 'BKTWRs main threat is up against McGrain' ... it's not some religious mantra that you can brainwash voters with. One, Robertson is one of many threats and two even McGrain won't stop Robertson for 90 minutes. Robertson has proven himself against top opposition in huge matches and come out glorious.
  • Robertson : 18 (1978), 16 (79), 19 (80) including a European Cup Final winner
  • McDermott : 16 (1980), 22 (81), 20 (82) including a European Cup Final opener
  • Robson : 15 (1983), 18 (84), 14 (85) including so many wonder goals, I’ve lost count!
  • Steven : 15 (1984/85) including goals in the ECWC semi v Bayern and opener in the final
When push came to shove, my midfield showed up against top opposition and in big games. Yours did...... what exactly? No one doubts Brady was a lovely player to watch, but be fair, what did he do come big games like his European final (loss)? What did the others do apart form Thijssen?

This level of game reflects the top opposition and in reality, my team won it all and got the T Shirt.

(3) When I mention goals, you say it's not about goals but you can push Lineker? To quote a famous commentator Goals Win Games but being as you've mentioned it, in the criteria of this draft, McClair has scored more goals than Lineker, your main threat.

(4) Thijssen and Ardiles are complete midfielders :lol:, you're having a laugh. As I'm balanced, even I would say Robson wasn't perfect and he's clearly better than either of them.

1) we're not thriving to play a possession game. I'd much rather share it. My point was if there is a midfield that would be better utilizing possession game that would be ours :)

2) As I've said you are sacrificing an attacking player to implement Molby in your line up. I'm not trying to brainwash anyone mate, just sharing my thoughts :) Every one of yours and our players have proved against top opposition. McGrain is one of them and he's rightly considered one of the best(defensive) right backs of the 70's.

Thijssen and that Ipswich midfield didn't do too badly against Terry Mac and Souness Liverpool midfield during their peak and held their own.

3) Different players peak at different times and we usually judge a player on 3 years peak, it's not like we can use career stats to determine how the player fares in one off match. For example you can't use Pele from 58 and Pele from 70' - hence to me career stats are useless. Normally you are using a peak version of your player not career accomplishments.

4) Of course I'd take Robson mate, but that doesn't make them less complete, especially in this draft and pool.
 

Enigma_87

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Brady is the best ball player on the pitch imo, but Ardiles and Thijssen aren't better in that department than BKTWR's trio, who bring other attributes to the table on top of that. I agree that your wide attackers are tailor-made for swift, incisive counter-attacks, and that Lineker is perfectly comfortable in that setup too, but I don't think your midfield is suited to soaking up pressure at all. Numbers alone isn't enough to stop Robbo and McDermott, and the difficulty in facing that sort of rampaging goal threat from midfield is that your back four often can't pick them up until it's too late.

I'd take Lineker over McClair any day of course, but I'm not sure you've got a decisive edge in quality elsewhere. Robertson is the pick of the wingers, albeit against the best full back on the pitch. In defence, neither goalkeeper is top-notch but I'd give Grobbelaar the edge. I'd go with a full back each in Irwin and McGrain, and if I was building a CB pairing I'd go with one of Todd/O' Leary and one of Walker/Hunter for balance. I thought Todd would be more highly rated in this draft tbh, as he has a great reputation and had a superb range of passing, particularly given this pool's reputation for more 'agricultural' defenders.
I can understand where you are coming from mate, and fair points, but not necessarily agree on his midfield is suited to the gameplan that is on the table.

Thijssen, Brady and Ardiles played in that era against tough midfielders and they fared pretty well. Take that Ipswich side - neither Wark nor Muhren are more well built than Ardiles and Brady and they fared pretty well against even more physical midfield with Souness in there.

Also Hunter individually IMO is better than either of the opposition CB's and has won POTY award for that Leeds campaign when he was absolutely rock solid. Of course feel free to disagree as the margins aren't that big, but of course in a game with fine margins and all :)
 
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One thing you are right about though @oneniltothearsenal is Todd is class and ahead of his time.

Clough had him as a kid then signed him for Derby as soon as he could.
  • Star from an early age (won FA Youth Cup under Clough), 1st team debut by 17 and Brian Clough bought him to be defensive rock for the forgotten (but excellent) Derby team of the early 70s
  • 2 League Titles and (a sign of his respect with his peers), Players Player of the year 1975
  • 3 times PFA team of the year (74/75/76) and over 600 league appearances
Quick, composed, great reader of the game, a class act.
 
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Denis Irwin

  • Started with Leeds (but we’ll forgive him), then brought himself to people’s (Fergies) attention after four pretty much ever-present seasons at Oldham culminating in their great cup runs of 1990
  • Then became a United legend starting with being part of the 1991 ECWC winning team along with Robson and McClair.... great team link through this team
  • Went on to more and more medals (outside this period) but superb from Day.1
Sir Alex Ferguson said that Denis Irwin would be the first name on his team sheet if he was selecting a best Manchester United XI from his 27 years at Old Trafford.

Ferguson explained that, while he had an abundance of great forwards and no shortage of options in the centre of midfield, Irwin was the only player who was “so superior” to anyone else in his position during the manager’s time at Old Trafford.

Free-kicks threat (shot was so hard, blink and you miss it)


Compilation including an amazing goal saving tackle at 0:25.

The song should have been "you'll never beat Denis Irwin". Two footed, fast, great defender, great attacking... just great fullstop.

 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
How do you block people? :mad::cool:
:lol: I think it was me rather than Onenil who was waxing lyrical about Todd though in fairness :).

I can understand where you are coming from mate, and fair points, but not necessarily agree on his midfield is suited to the gameplan that is on the table.

Thijssen, Brady and Ardiles played in that era against tough midfielders and they fared pretty well. Take that Ipswich side - neither Wark nor Muhren are more well built than Ardiles and Brady and they fared pretty well against even more physical midfield with Souness in there.

Also Hunter individually IMO is better than either of the opposition CB's and has won POTY award for that Leeds campaign when he was absolutely rock solid. Of course feel free to disagree as the margins aren't that big, but of course in a game with fine margins and all :)
Fair points mate, particularly about Thijssen's Ipswich midfield being competitive with their more famous contemporaries. It is a match of fine margins, and there's alot to like about both teams. Especially Brady, Robbo, McGrain and Irwin :drool:. That's drafting nirvana for an Irish Utd supporter with a sympathy for Celtic :)
 
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Just to be clear.... and I've tried to be fair throughout:
  • Both sides have decent defences though personally not sure about Hunter against an 80s midfield/attack....
  • My midfield imo is top and a good fit - allows Robson and McDermott to do what they did superbly throughout their careers, while I feel the oppo midfield are too similar and all played in their best teams with varied/better support
  • Robson is the best MFer in this game/draft and the best compliment I can pay Terry Mc is he is close behind (his 78-80 peak was unbelievable)
  • The front 6 have goals throughout.... other than Lineker the oppo six don't match up anywhere near
  • Main oppo threat for goals is Lineker... he has less in the draft criteria than McClair
  • Grobbelaar edges Leighton. Forget the clowning, you don't win leagues and European Cups with a poor goalie while poor Jim had his chance for us and was dropped
  • Oppo didn't have anywhere the number of seasons that meet this draft criteria
  • Very few oppo players did it at the top top level - deciding leagues, European finals. Mine did?
Very good goalie, four absolute legends for their club, a super midfield, an excellent/versatile forward and attacking threats from all area of the patch.