Pre Premier League Draft - Semi Finals - Tuppet vs. Enigma/Red Viper

[Indnyc]

Note:- Due to a bad copy/paste job, the poll title is incorrect. The poll options are correct.

This is a Pre Premier League draft from 1971/72 to 1991/92 where managers assemble their squads by selecting players based on their playing performance during this time period only. Performances that fall outside this time period should not be considered. Neither should the players performance for their country/international tournaments be considered. As in any team, team tactics and balance also play a part.

Hence please carefully consider the abovesaid factors and evaluate the merits of both teams before voting for the team which in your opinion is likelier to win the match.

Team Tuppet

VS.

Team Enigma/The Red Viper

​

Tactics Team Tuppet

Formation - 4-4-2

Our team is based on one of the most entertaining and successful teams of the draft era in Liverpool of late 80s. Barnes, Beardsley, Hansen & Rush were the pillars of Liverpool's success in this era and their chemistry as well game winning pedigree supported by the likes of Shilton, Johnston, Alan Ball & Murdoch should be good enough to win this game.

Strikers:

• Ian Rush - PFA & FWA player of the year 1984. European golden boot- 1984. 5 times team of the year & Won 5 first division as well 2 European cups.
• Peter Beardsley - PFA team of the year - 1987, 1988, 1990. Won first division - 1987-88, 1989-90

Up front we have a typical creator-scorer duo with Ian Rush as the best out and out goal scorer in the draft and Beardsley as one of the most creative player. Rush's goal. Beardsley would be playing as a withdrawn striker, often drop deep to carry the ball forward using his brilliant dribbling and technique. They also combined beautifully in 1990 season to give Liverpool a first division title win.

Midfield:

• 
  
  
  • Bobby Murdoch - Won Scottish league - 1971-72, 1972-73
  • Alan Ball

In the central midfield we have Murdoch & Ball. Murdoch would be playing as the central playmaker of our team. A meterenomic passer and combative ball winner he would be the tasked with running the game for our side. Along side him Alan ball with his exceptional tenacity and technique would be playing in a box to box role. Ball's defensive work rate as well as ability to pop up with important goals/crosses is very important for our midfield. We have sought to recreate the famous Auld-Murdoch partnership and Ball fits perfectly here.

Wingers:

• John Barnes - PFA player of the year - 1988, FWA Footballer of the year - 1988, 1990, PFA team of the year - 1987-88, 1989-90, 1990-91, Won first division - 1987-88, 1989-90
• Jimmy Johnstone - Won Scottish league - 1971–72, 1972–73, 1973–74

Probably the best wing combination in draft Johnstone and Barnes provide brilliant wing play. Jinky johnstone is one of the best player on the park, an exceptional winger who was arguably the best player in Britain in early 70s. One of the greatest dribbler of all time, he is given a free role here, where he could chose to provide chances to Rush & Beardsley while also able to cut inside to finish some chances himself. On left we upgraded Sharpe to Barnes. One of England's truly great winger, Barnes here resume his mesmeric partnership with Beardsely, that brought some great moments for both Liverpool & England.

Central defense:

• Alan Hansen - 6 times PFA team of the Year, 8 times Won the English first division, 3 times won European cup.
• Mike England - Won Uefa cup 1972, League cup 1971 & 1973

In central defense we have partnership of Hansen - England. Hansen is arguably the best CB in the draft. He would be in his usual ball playing role. Mike England as a towering center half compliments Hansen perfectly. Together this partnership should be able to deal with threats both on deck and in the air.

Fullbacks:

• Terry Cooper - Fairs cup - 1971.
• Paul Madeley - PFA team of the year - 1973–74, 1974–75, 1975–76, Leeds player of the year - 1976, First division winner - 1973-74

In fullback positions we have Leeds duo of Terry Cooper and Paul Madeley. Cooper was a defender full of innovation. His fitness, skill and an ability to cross the ball meant he could perform a devastating overlap down the left flank. On the right side we have another Leeds legend in Madeley. While a player without profile who could play anywhere on the pitch he was immensely talented, racking up 711 appearances for an excellent Leeds vintage while winning Leeds player of the year in 76 and getting 3 times in PFA team of the year. He job is to stay balanced with a defense first attitude as in Jinky we have a very attacking presence in that wing.

Goalkeeper:

• Peter Shilton - PFA Player of the year - 1977-78, IOC European Footballer of the Season: 1979–80, 10 times PFA team of the year, Nottingham Forest F.C. Player of the Year: 1981–82, Southampton F.C. Player of the Season: 1984–85, 1985–86

Our other reinforcement pick was used to upgrade Bonner to arguably the best goalkeeper in draft in Shilton. We don't need to say too much about him and his rewards tells it all. A brilliant goalkeeper that would go a long way to further secure our defense.

Tactics Enigma/The Red Viper

Formation: 4-3-3
Defensive line: normal
Style: direct, fast tempo. Two excellent goalscoring wide forwawrds in Trevor Francis and Kevin Sheedy, to open up and stretch the opposition defence. Liam Brady as playmaker and one of the best strikers in the pool in Lineker to finish off chances.

Short team profiles:

(GK) Jim Leighton - One of the very best Scottish keepers with 91 international caps to his name. Reached his peak at Aberdeen where he won number of silverware. Dependable and solid keeper who can be relied on.
Scottish Premier League (2): 1983–84, 1984–85
Scottish Cup (4): 1981–82, 1982–83, 1983–84, 1985–86
Scottish League Cup: 1985–86
European Cup Winners' Cup: 1982–83
European Super Cup: 1983

(LB) Nigel Winterburn - Top notch defensively, but no stranger going forward Winterburn was an integral part of Arsenal's defence for over a decade amassing more than 500 caps for Arsenal during that time. He was highly rated at Wimbledon as well, even before moving to Arsenal, winning the Wimbledon supporters Player Of The Year in each of the four seasons he spent at Plough Lane. Winterburn proved to be a fantastic crosser of the ball when be bombed forward to support an Arsenal attack, and his defensive virtues were frequently extolled, as he flanked a fantastic central defensive partnership of Tony Adams and Martin Keown.

(RB) Danny McGrain - The best right back in the pool. At the height of his powers he was considered the best RB in the world as well. Impeccable defensively and also pretty good going forward and stretching up the play.

(CB) Norman Hunter - Norman Hunter was a key part of a scary Leeds team in the 1970s, with a very physical—and direct style - and certainly one of the more imposing defenders ever seen in English football. After all, his nickname wasn't "Bite Yer Legs" for nothing.
Hunter, now 73, was a titan of a defender in an era when defenders lived up to their job title. He bullied opponents alongside Jack Charlton. With goalkeeper Gary Sprake, they formed a Bermuda Triangle where strikers just disappeared. Hunter developed a superb understanding with Jack Charlton that would serve the club for a decade. After winning the Division Two title, Hunter won Division One, FA Cup, Fairs Cup and League Cup honours. Named Leeds Player Of The Year in 1970/71 and PFA Player Of The Year in 1973, Hunter was quick, totally committed and possessed terrific positional awareness. He could also slice a defence open with a long raking pass and had a thunderous shot, as several goalkeepers discovered. Although not as “dirty” as a defender as his reputation suggested, Hunter was a hardman who never shirked a challenge. This attitude led to the odd spat, most famously with Derby County’s Francis Lee in 1975 when the pair were sent off for fighting in days when even bookings were rare. Hunter won 28 full caps (including one which made him the first England player ever to be capped as a substitute), scoring twice.

(CB) Des Walker - He is probably the best defender English football has produced since Bobby Moore at the time. We saw it proved a hundred times. A red-shirted shadow moving at top speed, a brush of the shoulder and a sudden deft flick of the boot. The perfect tackle: swift, silent and conclusive. It was Des Walker's speciality.

YOU'LL NE-VER beat Des Wal-ker. You'll ne-ver beat Des Wal-ker.

That's what they sang at the City Ground, with a matter-of-factness that mocked the efforts of the most renowned visiting forwards. To many of Nottingham Forest's fans, he was the finest player ever to pull on the Garibaldi shirt. They came to love his silent efficiency, the lack of wasted gesture, the erasure of emotion from his play.

In the 1990 World Cup, he was so outstanding that Gianni Agnelli was said to have bid up to pounds 8m to take him to Juventus.

(CM) Osvaldo Ardiles In the modern game, the Premier League has established itself as one of the top destinations for foreign football talent. Back in 1978 when a young Huracan midfielder named Osvaldo Ardiles was weighing up his options, however, the English game was far more parochial and closed off to outside influences.

Ardiles, perhaps more than anybody, helped to change that perception. The 1978 World Cup winner with Argentina represented Tottenham for four excellent seasons, winning the FA Cup in 1981 and establishing himself as a fans' favourite for years to come. One of the finest midfielders in the pool.

(CM) Bryan Robson - Arguably the best player in the pool. Captain fantastic will be in his zone covering every inch of grass with his trademark style. He brings a lot of steel in midfield but also the technical ability to fit seamlessly alongside Ardiles and Brady.

(AM) Liam Brady - Liam Brady was a special player with phenomenal talent. The elegant playmaker who defined Arsenal in the 1970s had it all - top notch work rate, great passing range - both long or short, eye for the goal and made things happen in midfield.

Spoiler: Brady in action against United

(RWF) Trevor Francis -He took the English football by storm scoring all four goals against Bolton Wanderers aged 16, February, 1971, on only his ninth start.“An astonishing player," says Bolton general manager Nat Lofthouse.
Shortly after arriving to take over as manager in 1977, Sir Alf Ramsey — a man not given to hyperbole —said of the Birmingham No 8: ‘There is no better player in the country than Trevor Francis.’ Trevor Francis was one of the best players of his generation who enjoyed a long and successful playing career. He was a forward with acceleration and style who was always very dangerous around the penalty area. He was the first Britain £ 1 million player when moving to Nottingham Forest in 1979. He also had a great record when playing for Detroit Express, where he scored 36 goals in 33 matches. He had previously scored 128 goals for Birmingham before his move to Forest.
Trevor Francis was one of the most respected and feared forwards in English football during his heyday, scored two goals at the World Cup in 1982, including the opener in England's 2-0 win over Czechoslovakia in the group stage.

(LWF) Kevin Sheedy - Kevin Sheedy a man the Blues consider to have one of the best left pegs ever seen in top-flight football - 97 goals in 357 starts, from midfield - and countless, countless assists. In all, the tricky winger with a supreme left foot managed just five appearances for Liverpool before braving the short trip across Stanley Park, where he was a revelation.

Accolades:
Football League First Division (2): 1984–85, 1986–87
FA Cup (1): 1984
European Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1985
FA Charity Shield (4): 1984, 1985, 1986 (shared), 1987

(CF) Gary Lineker - Gary Lineker is by far and away England's greatest ever World Cup striker, having managed to double the number of goals scored by his closest challenger. Very few England players have possessed Lineker's instincts inside the box, with his ability to score goals, particularly from close range, his defining skill.

Lineker was an English striker who veered far from convention. He wasn’t particularly physical, and his shots weren’t laced with power. Instead, he relied upon his technical and mental characteristics to find the net. He was, quintessentially, brain over brawn.

Often found lingering on the shoulder of the last man, his positional sense and concentration were second to none. As a result he was able to find space in even the tightest of penalty boxes; getting on the end of crosses to bag innumerable tap-ins, his job may have seemed easy, but that’s only because he made it look so.

An opportunist with a sophisticated touch, Lineker was nimble, fast of thought and foot, and an unerringly precise finisher. One chance was all he needed, and his ability to deceive defences to create room for those chances saw him aptly earn the nickname ‘El Matador’.

His individual records speak for itself:
English Second Division Top Scorer: 1982–83
English First Division Top Scorer: 1984–85, 1985–86, 1989–90
PFA Players' Player of the Year: 1985–86
FWA Footballer of the Year: 1985–86, 1991–92
FIFA World Cup Golden Boot: 1986
FIFA World Cup All-Star Team: 1986
Onze de Bronze: 1986
Ballon d'Or: Runner-up 1986
FIFA Fair Play Award: 1990
FWA Tribute Award: 1997
FIFA World Player of the Year: Bronze award 1991
FIFA 100
English Football Hall of Fame: 2003
PFA Team of the Century (1977–1996): 2007

Team tactics and style:
Defence - our defence has it all - two tough and defensively sound full backs in Winterburn and McGrain and one of the finest CB's in the pool at their very best in Walker and Hunter. All possess pace, agility and intelligence to keep the fort and protect Leighton.
Midfield - we have the advantage here. Ardiles and Robson will the game from midfield - both have starred for their teams with Ardiles one of Spurs best players of all time, and Robson basically dragging the entire 80's side, especially in the biggest occasions. They are great on the ball but also sound defensively with Robson excelling in both ends. Sheedy possesses top notch work rate, whilst Francis skillfulness and eye for the goal would see him occupy more the attacking third when we have the ball. Our midfield is complimented by Brady who will help in both phases flanked by Robson and Ardiles in their favorite box to box roles.
Attack - lead by one of the best #9's in the pool and two of the outstanding wingers/wing forwards in Francis and Sheedy, our attack doesn't lack creativity or finishing ability.

Advantages:
- Attack - One of the best #9's in the pool, flanked by Sheedy and Francis. Our attack is well balanced and complimented, especially with Brady pulling the strings from behind and finding openings with his vision and passing range.
- Variety in attack and full of great goalscorers with respectable record - Francis, Brady, Lineker and Sheedy.
- very solid defensive unit composed well known and recognized names in the period we have in question, whilst having obvious edge in full back positions.
- big advantage in midfield that would help restrict the opposition chances and supplying the attack. The Robson, Ardiles, Brady triangle will get the better of what most likely be 4-2-4 from Tuppet, considering he has also 2 attacking minded CM's in Ball and Murdoch and either of them not at their peak ability.

 

[Indnyc]

Good Luck @Tuppet @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper

 

[Enigma_87]

Best of luck @Tuppet !

Cheers for setting it up @Indnyc !

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Poll reads MJJ vs EAP

I'm still in this?

 

[Enigma_87]

Poll reads MJJ vs EAP

I'm still in this?

Just saw it.

Surely you'll vote team EAP then

 

[Enigma_87]

To kick it off in terms of advantage I think our midfield is more balanced and at their absolute best.

Jinky, Murdoch and Ball aren't in their absolute peaks here and to me that CM duo lacks a bit defensively.

Murdoch played only 15 and 23 games in the two title runs for Celtic when he had injury and weight issues and was later sold to Boro playing in Second Division.

Ball would largely have to cover the midfield on his own, and despite him being highly energetic midfielder with high work rate he as well had some injury woes and generally on the wane.

Jinky was still in his late 20's but again not at his absolute peak from 71/72 on in the draft period.

On the other end what we have done is add more steel with Robson and him, Ardiles and Brady can boss the midfield, harass the opposition and get the ball back quickly to launch quick counters.

 

[Indnyc]

Poll reads MJJ vs EAP

I'm still in this?

Oh no This is what happens when I copy paste.. I can’t edit the title now

 

[Enigma_87]

Oh no This is what happens when I copy paste.. I can’t edit the title now

On a side note it shouldn't be an issue since the thread title and the teams are ok so it shouldn't be a biggie

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

First thoughts.
Tuppet's attack is insane for this draft. That front four is very compelling.
But the flip side is Murdoch-Ball seems week for midfield for the SF. Brady-Robson should have the upper hand in midfield so tough to decide.

 

[Tuppet]

Best of luck @Enigma_87 @The Red Viper

 

[Tuppet]

I know its going to be sticking point but I've really said all that is to say about my midfield in previous games, so going to just copy paste the quotes. But the point about their peaks outside the draft timeline is really irrelevant. What we need to consider is how they play in the draft timeline and thats where I feel we can totally give you guys a game. As mentioned Alan Ball was really an amazing player for Arsenal after joining them in 71. He became their captain and was selected as one of their 50 greatest players, Brady himself mentioned him as one of the greatest Arsenal player. Murdoch had 2 good seasons with Celtic and was key in winning league titles and the cup.

Jinky was just brilliant at Celtic in early 70s and had some of his most memorable performances around that time. He is IMO the best right winger in the draft as well.


Alan Ball

I remember thinking that he must have been some player to wear those white boots - and Alan Ball was some player." It's hard to disagree with the words of David O'Leary.

Ball's arrival at Highbury in December 1971 was big news. Arsenal had just done the Double but, just months later, they were splashed out a British record transfer fee to land the World Cup-winning England star. It was money well spent.

Ball caught the eye in more ways than one. His technique and passing ability made Arsenal a more attractive side to watch. He got his fair share of goals - 52 in 217 appearances. And, of course, he sported those trademark white boots.

Surprisingly Ball didn't win a trophy with Arsenal. He came close - he was part of the team which was beaten 1-0 by Leeds United in the 1972 FA Cup final and finished as runners-up in the league the following season.

A natural leader, Ball took on the captaincy at the start of the 1973/74 campaign and became Arsenal's most influential performer as the Double side of 1971 fragmented and a new generation of players - including Liam Brady - began to emerge.

Injury denied Arsenal of Ball's services at the start of the 1974/75 season and results suffered in his absence. Relegation was averted but Ball lasted just one more full season at Highbury, helping the struggling Gunners secure their top-flight status for a second time in 1975/76. Without Ball, the unthinkable might well have happened.

Ball left Arsenal in December 1976 and joined Southampton, enjoying something of a renaissance as he helped the Saints win promotion to the top flight. He ended his playing days in America and went on to manage seven clubs over a 19-year period, including two spells at Portsmouth.

Awarded an MBE in 2000 for his services to football, Ball died of a heart attack at the age of 61 in April 2007. The tributes poured in from stunned former team-mates.

"In my opinion he was one of Arsenal's greatest players of all time," said Brady. "He helped me greatly and, with David O'Leary, Frank Stapleton and Graham Rix, I feel he contributed a great deal towards our careers, passing on his experience of the game."

 

[Tuppet]

Jimmy Johnstone

1970's

By 1970 Celtic fans could boast that their man was the greatest player in Britain, eclipsing even the likes of Best, Charlton, Bremner and Ball. He proved it in the 1970 European Cup Semi final when he tore the much vaunted Leeds United defence apart over two legs. He was on song at Hampden in the second leg and tormented the great Leeds & English World Cup defenders, Charlton, Hunter and Cooper. This earned Celtic a place in the 1970 European Cup Final but they went down 2-1 to Feyenoord of Rotterdam. The Dutch side had a tight reign on Jimmy that night and he could not make an impression which was a terrible disappointment to everyone at Celtic.

At this time Rothmans selected a British best eleven side from a panel of experts and Jimmy was chosen in 1970, 1971 and 1972 which was a considerable achievement and showed that his talents were fully appreciated south of the border.

Jimmy was always the man for the big occasion and could be relied upon in the heat of Celtic v Rangers games. For a small man he became famous for his headed goals against Rangers. Twice at Ibrox he score the winning goal from headers. In 1971 with seconds remaining he out-jumped the Rangers defence to loop in a header for a 3-2 win. In 1973 he stooped to head a cross from Davie Hay past the lumbering figure of Peter McCloy. Jimmy often kept his best performances for Rangers games despite the heavy tackling and physical punishment often meted out to him.

The 1971 Scottish Cup Final replay is remembered as the 'Jimmy Johnstone final'. Stein gave him another roving role, and with his close control and ability to beat a man he was instrumental in Celtic's 2-1 victory in a game where the scoreline did not remotely represent Celtic's superiority. One year later, in the 1972 Scottish Cup Final. he was on song yet again when Celtic beat Hibs by a record 6-1 scoreline. At this time when Jimmy was on form the feeling was he was unstoppable. However he could not breach the Inter Milan defence in the 1972 European Cup semi final and Celtic lost on penalties.

There was the occasional disappointment and he was carried off injured in the 1971 League Cup Final against Partick Thistle early in the match after a bad tackle by future Celtic team mate Ronnie Glavin. Celtic went down 4-1 and it is thought had Jimmy remained fit on the field then it may have been a different result.

As the 1970's wore on Jimmy was still a regular in Stein's team but could be left out on occasions mostly through ill discipline. He roared back to form in the spring of 1973 when Celtic and Rangers were tied in a race for the league. Celtic triumphed on 28 April after a 3-0 win at Easter Road and the wee man was in great form that day. He had calmed the team from the start by keeping possession and creating space for other players around him helping to make it 8 League title in a row.

He was often a victim of brutality from defenders, none more so than against the 'animals' of Atletico Madrid in the 1974 European Cup semi final at Parkhead. Vicious tackles rained down on him that night and he was pictured next day covered in cuts and bruises all inflicted by the Spanish team's defenders. Celtic received no protection from UEFA's officials after three Atletico players had been ordered off and despite receiving death threats Jimmy played in Madrid as Celtic went down 2-0, bravely given the circumstances. They were deprived of a crack at the mighty Bayern Munich and the likes of Jimmy, Kenny Dalglish and Dixie Deans would have loved to pit their wits against the great Franz Beckembauer.

His last great Celtic performance came in 1974 when Celtic beat Hibs 6-3 in the League Cup Final. He scored the opening goal and created several others as Dixie Deans helped himself to a another Hampden hat trick against Hibs. Celtic's 10 in a row bid floundered at Ibrox in January 1975 on a day when Jimmy was named as sub, leading to rumours that he had enjoyed the excesses of the new year and had been punished by being dropped. Had he played the outcome could have been different.

The Jimmy Johnstone final -

 

[The Red Viper]

@Tuppet , Good Luck bro!

 

[Enigma_87]

Will shamefully repost some of the magnificent work @Joga Bonito put in creating that Robbo thread given that he's likely to put up a great performance here as well:

PLAYING STYLE


Far too often the term 'complete midfielder' or 'box to box dynamo' gets thrown about and lavished on players, who were dynamic and industrious but perhaps weren't as complete as they were made out to be. However, none embodied that title better than Bryan Robson. Captain Marvel, quite simply, had the lot.

He was very much an unholy amalgamation of several midfielders at once - he possessed the terrier-like tenacity and grit of midfield work-horses, disrupting the opposition and not giving them a moment of peace on the ball with his incessant pressing and fearsome tackling; his tactical acuity and reading of the game meant that he snuffed out fires in a manner not too dissimilar to the wily defensive midfielders; a sweet left peg which could dictate play like a crafty playmaker and of course, those fierce piercing runs from deep that were the trademark of any box to box midfielder worth his salt and last but not least, the sheer timing of his runs and anticipation skills that most poachers would have been envious of. Very much an enforcer, commander in chief, talismanic match-winning presence all rolled into one immense package. Not for nothing did England boss Bobby Robson refer to him as Captain Marvel.

He would win a crunching tackle on the edge of his own penalty area, feed the ball out to the wing or the nearest midfielder, pick himself up, go sprinting 80 yards forward and then arrive on the edge of the opposition penalty area with the same exquisite timing to crack another effort goalwards.

There have been plenty of 'offensive box to box goalscoring midfielders', such as Gerrard, Ballack, Lampard who married excellent goalscoring ability with grit and industry. How many of these midfielders would have been at home at centre-back, let alone as the holding midfielder? How many of them would have been favourably compared with Sir Bobby Moore of all people?

Ex manager of Robson Johnny Giles said:
I actually think that his best position would have been in the middle of a back four, like Bobby Moore. I think he could have played that role in his sleep, because Bryan wasn't particularly quick but he could read it well. It was just that he was too valuable a player in midfield to be given a defensive role. He played left-back for me at West Brom, but Bryan could play in most positions.

He was one of the best trackers in the game - when the opposing midfield player is on the ball, to track him is to get after him, get a tackle in, win the ball back. Bryan was also a very good header of the ball, and very brave when attacking the ball in the air in general. He scored a lot of valuable goals that way. England would never be entirely out of it, as long as they had players like Bryan Robson.

Dave Bowler said:
Robson was the complete modern midfielder.

While at The Hawthorns, he featured in 259 games and scored 46 goals, a highly impressive ratio given that he played a fair chunk of football filling in across the back four early on in his career.

Such was his innate understanding of the game and the way it came so naturally to him on the pitch that he took to those roles with the same comfortable ease that he displayed when playing in his best position, the centre of midfield.

It’s a much used phrase, but Robson genuinely was a colossus. Supremely physically fit, he could go rampaging all over the pitch, the archetypal box to box player. But there was always purpose about his football, always a reason for where he was on the field unlike other, similarly energetic midfielders who display the characteristics of the headless chicken as they run here, there and everywhere, all over the place, but never in the right place except by accident.

That was never the case with Robson, a player who had an unerring knack for being in the right place at the right time, wherever it was on the pitch, be it breaking down attacks before they ever got near the Albion goal, collecting the ball from John Wile or Alistair Robertson in order to launch attacks, or arriving on the end of a cross into the box to plan the ball past another hapless goalkeeper.

Robson possessed the reading of the game and the tactical nous, to go hand in hand with the goalscoring prowess and the industry. He was very much a one-off with the sheer completeness of his game and in my honest opinion only Robson and Lothar Matthaus, had it all in their lockers as the complete midfielders - the talismanic match-winning aura, authoritative command in midfield, defensive nous and the sheer tenacity and temperament to go with it.

and of course some classic highlights that are always worth a watch:

I'll let the performance speak for itself - Robson in a midfield duo with Hoddle (no slight against him btw, just the silly and typical archaic set-up by England) against the carre magique of France with Platini at it's helm.

vs France 1984 Friendly



vs Netherlands 1988 Friendly



vs USSR 1984 Friendly

 

[Moby]

It's about time Captain Marvel comes to the fore.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Team Tuppet : stand outs are the goalie, Hansen and Barnes/Beardsley/Rush (both individually and collectively).

Team E/TRV : like Walker/McGrain on right of defence and midfield (though I'd have kept Thijssen over Ardiles personally).

I'd give Tuppet the goalie, wingers and forwards ... E/TRV the defence (maybe, close) and midfield. Tuppet key point is the proven Beardsley link.... E/TRV key is midfield and right of defence.

Be interested to hear how each side sees opposition (now open) and where they see the big wins for their respective teams.

 

[The Red Viper]

It will be a great match.

Tuppet has a very good team and his attack is excellent. However, we have the advantage in rest of the areas on the pitch. We have got a better defense and a much better midfield.

Barnes - Beardsley - Rush - Johnstone is a fantastic attack, but we feel with a defense of McGrain - Walker - Hunter - Winterburn and with Robson marshaling the midfield in the front of them, we can restrict that attack to a decent extent. Especially when you consider Johnstone was past his peak here. Jinky was still a good player but isn't amongst the best wingers in the draft during this time-frame.

Now to the midfield. We have got a much much better midfield. Murdoch was a really good player but like Jinky, he was again at his best during the 1960s. In the 1970s, Murdoch was mared with injuries and was overweight. He would have no chance dealing with Brady and Robson would would dominate that midfield comfortably as they would more or less have free-run in the midfields. With Brady playmaking and Robson making late runs into the box, Tuppet's defense would have a very hard time dealing with our attack.

 

[The Red Viper]

That brings me to Hansen vs Lineker. Love Hansen. But, no striker has troubled Hansen as much as Lineker did.

Lineker with his pace was an absolute problem for Hansen.

Hansen and Lineker faced each other in 8 games and Lineker scored in 5 of those games. This was with an attacking set-up which was nowhere near as talented and creative as our current one. And with the likes of Brady, Sheedy, Francis, Ossie and Robson feeding him, he would absolutely thrive here.

 

[Tuppet]

I don't know about any problem in my defense. Hansen is the standout defender in the pitch and probably in the whole draft along with Mcgrath. Shilton is just the goat for English leagues. Mike England is the kind of unspectacular foil a lovely ball player like Hansen would like. He was just insane in the air, fantastic in the set pieces as well. Madeley would go underrated but he was a legit legend for Leeds, his verstaility hurt him a bit but 3 times team of the year shows how he good he really was. Terry Cooper was fantastic his combination with Eddie gray was one of the highlights of Leeds play, I would take him over winterburn tbh. I don't really see how my defense is weaker, IMO its actually better than E/TRV.

 

[Tuppet]

Just a mention on Beardsley. He gets lost often when talking about great attacking players from Liverpool. Barnes / Rush / Brady / Linekar are all great players, but when the diminutive Geordie was on song he could destroy best of the defenses as he did here in one of the Liverpool's most famous victory against Nottingham Forest with Des Walker in defense -


Despite the scoreline suggest Forest was a very good side and a title rival for Liverpool. But the Barnes - Beardsley connection was something special and too much to handle for them.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Just a mention on Beardsley. He gets lost often when talking about great attacking players from Liverpool. Barnes / Rush / Brady / Linekar are all great players, but when the diminutive Geordie was on song he could destroy best of the defenses as he did here in one of the Liverpool's most famous victory against Nottingham Forest with Des Walker in defense -


Despite the scoreline suggest Forest was a very good side and a title rival for Liverpool. But the Barnes - Beardsley connection was something special and too much to handle for them.

Other than United games, that's arguably one of the best team performances (against good opposition) I've ever seen. If it had been 8-0, Forest couldn't complain... Beardsley was amazing.

 

[Tuppet]

While the questions have been asked of our defense, I would like to see how E/TRV defense plans on handling Rush - Beardsley combo. Beardsley already did some exceptional work against the Forest defense that had Des Walker, but throw in this guy and I have real doubts on their ability to shut down our attack.

Ian Rush

Ian Rush, the greatest goalscorer in the history of both Liverpool and the FA Cup in the modern era, was once described by Kenny Dalglish as the ‘best striker I've ever seen'.

As first his striking partner at Anfield and later manager, Dalglish was ideally placed to witness the development of the aptly named Rush. ‘A deadly finisher,' the Scot said.

Shy, introverted and insecure as a teenager, the Welshman would emerge as an instinctive predator in front of goal, notably in 1983-84 when he lifted the Golden Boot as the leading goalscorer in European football.

‘They used to say it was my vision that opened up the chances for Ian to put away. But really, it was his vision, his knowing when to run and where to run,' Dalglish said. ‘That was the vital ingredient. I would just hit the ball into space, knowing that he would have the pace and the instinct to be moving there. A player of his qualities could turn a hopeful pass into a great one.'

The statistics say it all: in 658 first-team appearances, Rush scored 346 goals; in the FA Cup, he netted a record 44 times, including five in four Wembley finals, another record.

His tally is all the more impressive because so many of those goals came in important matches with trophies at stake, a tribute to his temperament as well as skill; the end result was a personal haul of one European Cup, five League championship medals, five League Cup and three FA Cups gongs.

 

[Tuppet]

Goalkeepers usually don't get the credit in drafts but having spent a reinforcement round pick to get the best goalkeeper in the draft, I feel I should point out the difference and the extra quality Shilton brings in my defense. Along with Hansen, Shilton is the best defensive player on the pitch and his undoubted quality should be able to give the extra push my team needs to keep E/TRV's attack at bay -

Peter Shilton

“What can you say about Peter Shilton? Peter Shilton is Peter Shilton, and he has been Peter Shilton since the year dot.”

Former England manager Bobby Robson’s quote is both comically nonsensical and yet also sums up perfectly a player whose record-breaking achievements meant he needed no introduction.

One of the game’s greatest goalkeepers, Shilton’s ability was matched by his longevity – he played 1,390 times for eleven clubs during his career, finally calling it a day well into his late forties.

He remains England’s most-capped player, making 125 appearances in a 20-year career, a tally that would have been significantly larger had it not been for the presence of fellow legend Ray Clemence, with whom he alternated in the England goal during the 1970s and ‘80s.

‘Shilts’ was a brilliant shot-stopper who bossed his area and was renowned for his dedication to training. In his 125 games between the sticks, England won 66 times, conceded only 80 goals, and he kept a record 65 clean sheets.

He bowed out on a high in 1990, helping the Three Lions to reach the World Cup Semi-Final, the team’s best showing since 1966.

Shilton’s domestic career was littered with honours, most notably at Brian Clough’s Nottingham Forest from 1977 to 1982, where he won the League Championship, the League Cup, the European Cup twice and was voted PFA Player of the Year in 1978.

 

[Tuppet]

How Terry Cooper added colour to the left-back's art

Ashley Cole probably has more burdens to wrestle with this morning than the concerns about the inadequacies of his potential England replacements that have exercised so many over the past week. The attacking verve he has brought to the side and the balance that was so lacking during Phil Neville's brief interregnum in the No3 shirt – when Kevin Keegan managed the team – have brought Cole 77 caps, made him a key player and emphasized how fundamentally the role of left-back has been transformed during the four decades I have been watching the game.

In junior games full-back was where PE teachers used to hide the duffers, and it seemed almost an insult to consign those whose genes had blessed them with the bewitching gift of being left-footed to such a prosaic position. Rampaging and marauding were never on their agendas – the job description demanded that they were primarily destructive forces: an ability to tackle ferociously was all that was expected of them.

Tommy Banks, the Bolton Wanderers left-back who had to replace the late Roger Byrne in England's 1958 World Cup team after the Manchester United captain had been killed in the Munich air crash, was the role model. Francis Lee once wrote of the fabled hard man that wingers "bounced off him like peas off a tin roof", and it was said that a sure way to get gravel rash was by attempting to beat Banks on the outside. His motivation, like so many of his defensive contemporaries, was about self-respect and his determination not to yield an inch meant that his dignity was rarely threatened.

One man did get the better of him and for those of us who were not fortunate enough to see Stanley Matthews play, the uncompromising Banks' statement about the great winger suggests just how special he was.

During a union meeting about the abolition of the maximum wage in 1960, Banks made a decisive contribution when a lower league player questioned why footballers deserved to earn twice as much as his father, a miner. There are many accounts of what the Bolton left-back said but Jimmy Armfield's is the earthiest. "If thi father wants to know why we want more brass," Banks said, "tell him to come and play against Brother Matthews in front of 30,000 fans. That's why we want more money."

Ray Wilson, who made the England position his own during the 60s, brought pace and composure to the role but was just as relentlessly tough as Banks, a trait later shared by Stuart Pearce. It was Terry Cooper, however, England's left-back at the 1970 World Cup, who set the tone – even down to the startlingly coloured boots – for Cole, Graeme Le Saux, Kenny Sansom and all the other diddy, converted wingers who succeeded him in the national side.

Cooper's exuberant overlapping and neat link-up play with Martin Peters was a nod to the great Brazilian pioneer of attacking full-backs Nilton Santos, who became such a devastating attacking threat during the 1958 World Cup. Outstanding though he was in Mexico, Elland Road witnessed Cooper's best as he pinged the ball about with Johnny Giles and Eddie Gray before storming forward to deliver marvellously menacing crosses.

He changed my opinion of what a full-back should be and though it took a long time to trickle down to coaches at our level, Cooper became a beacon for all those lumbered with the left-back's duties. I remember reading that Graeme Souness was struggling in that position at Middlesbrough when Jack Charlton became the manager at Ayresome Park. He was unimpressed and swiftly moved the Scot into central midfield, telling him that he lacked the qualities to make it in the No3 shirt. That you needed special qualities to play there was certainly news to me.

It led to a growing appreciation of the technical mastery of the greatest practitioners and, in particular, the three Italian artists Giacinto Facchetti, Antonio Cabrini and Paolo Maldini. Equally adept at defending and attacking, none of them found his gifts compromised by having a stronger suit, something that could not be said about their England counterparts who can be broadly segregated into two camps – creative and essentially negative.

If Cole sits out this World Cup Fabio Capello's options will be limited to the creative clones of the Chelsea left-back – utilising the promising but inexperienced Stephen Warnock or Leighton Baines, the unconvincing Wayne Bridge or, as some have advocated, gambling on a midfielder such as James Milner in the position. Whoever Capello chooses, it shows how far we have come. The Terry Cooper style is still producing its heirs.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

Nothings really changed for me - know the players anyway.

Looking at individuals/best players in position, I'd say Tuppet has the goalie (by a mile), a defender, a midfielder (Ball was excellent, no Robson but no-one was), wingers and forward. E/TRV two defenders, one midfielder, nothing in the LBs and MAYBE Brady/Beardsley tie.... no doubting Brady was a lovely player to watch but end result? (Beardsley's goal ratio about 1-3?, never mind assists).

Defensively, little in it (apart from goalie which seems to get ignored every draft) and no doubt Lineker and Rush could score, and that Beardsley and Brady could set up. Difference is wingers for Tuppet (more threat both sides), difference is midfield for E/TRV though would still have Thijssen over Ardiles and wouldn't have a midfielder ahead of Robson - the former means Robson has more defensive duties and the latter could restrict his forward surges. Better with a holding MFer and room ahead of him.

Collectively, Tuppets team formation is more suited to the players he has.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nothings really changed for me - know the players anyway.

Looking at individuals/best players in position, I'd say Tuppet has the goalie (by a mile), a defender, a midfielder (Ball was excellent, no Robson but no-one was), wingers and forward. E/TRV two defenders, one midfielder, nothing in the LBs and MAYBE Brady/Beardsley tie.... no doubting Brady was a lovely player to watch but end result? (Beardsley's goal ratio about 1-3?, never mind assists).

Defensively, little in it (apart from goalie which seems to get ignored every draft) and no doubt Lineker and Rush could score, and that Beardsley and Brady could set up. Difference is wingers for Tuppet (more threat both sides), difference is midfield for E/TRV though would still have Thijssen over Ardiles and wouldn't have a midfielder ahead of Robson - the former means Robson has more defensive duties and the latter could restrict his forward surges. Better with a holding MFer and room ahead of him.

Collectively, Tuppets team formation is more suited to the players he has.

I can understand where you are coming from mate, but we also have a good fit for Tuppet's best attacking outlet (along with Rush) in McGrain covering for Barnes.

Then again Tuppet's side is a bit more attacking and looks like 4-2-4 from what I see during the phases and the CM pair would find it really hard to get a grip on the game and really build from the center, considering who they are up against and also Murdoch - the main playmaker is way past his best here.

Collectively and stylistically our midfield would dominate and get possession back quickly to start counters.

Tuppet has a great attacking unit of course, but Norman is also the third best CB here(which tends to be ignored) and part of that Leeds team that won the 1973–74 title going 29 matches unbeaten and Hunter was chosen as best player of the year in this time frame whilst, Mike England's best years came in the 60's.

As you mentioned our defensive unit is really solid and with that midfield base and also attack that, really isn't that far off considering the stature of Francis, Lineker and Brady have during that time frame.

 

[Enigma_87]

Just to re-post some profiles of some of our the main men

"Celtic legend Danny McGrain was the best British player I ever came up against"

LEIGHTON James played over 50 times for Wales in the 1970s and 1980s and came up against some renowned opponents in an international career which spanned 12 years.

But the former Derby County, Queens Park Rangers and Swansea City winger is in no doubt about who his most formidable adversaries were during that time.

James felt the games against Scotland were always the toughest due to the quality of the full-back that he found himself up against.

Indeed, he rates Celtic legend Danny McGrain as the best player from the British Isles that he ever squared up to during his distinguished playing days.

“Scotland have got their two first choice full-backs out injured and they have still got a lot of options there,” he said. “But they have always been quite well placed for full-backs. I played against Danny McGrain and Sandy Jardine.

“Danny is the best British player I ever played against. If he was a player today he would be in the Premier League in England. He was a top full-back. He would be too good, too big, to play in the Scottish Premiership. The same would be true of Sandy as well.”

Trevor Francis:

Neymar and Philippe Coutinho have been bought for fees in the hundreds of millions, but there was a time when a single million got you the top talent

In an era when footballers are traded between clubs for hundreds of millions, the idea of a £1 million transfer probably doesn't seem that interesting.

But, nearly four decades ago, it was an historic fee and one that Nottingham Forest paid to Birmingham City to secure the talents of Trevor Francis.

The striker became known as England's first £1 million player and his career subsequently took him to a number of different countries.

Francis has commented on the fact that he is still widely referred to as "The £1m Man" by media and fans, joking that you would be forgiven for thinking that it was the only thing he did.

"I found myself trying to justify the £1m," he told the Daily Mail in 2009. "You have to be yourself and play your own game. There was a pressure lifted when I got my first goal against Bolton." However, he went some way towards justifying the historic fee some four months after arriving at the City Ground when he scored the winning goal in the 1979 European Cup final against Malmo in Munich - his European debut for the club.

"To this day whether it be a luncheon or an evening dinner, I’m always introduced as: 'The £1m man'," he told the Daily Mail. "I played first-team football at 16. I was 39 when I finished at Sheffield Wednesday. That’s a long career, longer than most. I had nine years with England winning 52 caps. I played in the World Cup.

"I also played in Italy and Scotland for very big, prestigious clubs. But sometimes you’d think the only thing I did was to be transferred for £1m. And, do you know, I’m quite proud of it."

Indeed, as he said himself, Francis' playing career lasted an amazing 24 years and he won two European Cups. He scored 12 goals in 52 appearances for England and featured at the 1982 World Cup.

His career began at Birmingham City when he burst onto the scene as a 16-year-old with an eye for goal. He spent nine seasons with Birmingham before making the historic move to Nottingham Forest in 1979.

Francis remained at the City Ground for three full seasons, winning two European Cups, before signing for Man City in 1981, but his time there was brief as he moved to Italy to join Sampdoria in 1982. Then 28, he spent four seasons with the Genoa club, helping them to a Coppa Italia triumph in 1985 before moving on to Atalanta in 1986.

Francis returned to the UK in 1987, linking up with Graeme Souness at Rangers, before moving south to Queens Park Rangers in the spring of 1988. He finished his career at Sheffield Wednesday, winding down his playing days from 1990 to 1994.

Francis briefly served as player-manager at QPR during his time there and was also player-manager of Wednesday from 1991 until 1995, guiding them to the final of the FA Cup and League Cup in 1993. He later had spells at the helm of Birmingham City (1996-2001) and Crystal Palace (2001-2003).

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I can understand where you are coming from mate, but we also have a good fit for Tuppet's best attacking outlet (along with Rush) in McGrain covering for Barnes.

Then again Tuppet's side is a bit more attacking and looks like 4-2-4 from what I see during the phases and the CM pair would find it really hard to get a grip on the game and really build from the center, considering who they are up against and also Murdoch - the main playmaker is way past his best here.

Collectively and stylistically our midfield would dominate and get possession back quickly to start counters.

Tuppet has a great attacking unit of course, but Norman is also the third best CB here(which tends to be ignored) and part of that Leeds team that won the 1973–74 title going 29 matches unbeaten and Hunter was chosen as best player of the year in this time frame whilst, Mike England's best years came in the 60's.

As you mentioned our defensive unit is really solid and with that midfield base and also attack that, really isn't that far off considering the stature of Francis, Lineker and Brady have during that time frame.

Barnes isn't the biggest threat.... Beardsley is his equal but like a few players, didn't get the obvious headlines that Barnes seemed to attract (or Brady for that matter).... "flair" players always do. I've seen Rush score goals from nothing more times than I can remember (including Vs United, Cup Finals, Europe), something Lineker rarely did. With Johnstone still a top player albeit arguably coming toward the latter part of his career, that front four is the best in the draft, collectively and individually (goals).

Don't disagree about defenders necessarily, though England played in European finals in the early 70s (and scored) so like Johnstone, may be at the latter end of his career, but still good. As I said, pretty even but I can see both sides scoring but Tuppets wide men more so.

You definitely have the best central midfielder but (for the reasons I said.... his 'fit'), maybe not optimal use of him imo and Brady's goal scoring record (being as you have him ahead of Robson and Ardiles) is not great.

I think you may have more possession but it wouldn't be anything like 70/30 and Tuppets forward line would outscore you due to collective and individual better ability.

Imo.

 

[Gio]

Team Tuppet : stand outs are the goalie, Hansen and Barnes/Beardsley/Rush (both individually and collectively).

Team E/TRV : like Walker/McGrain on right of defence and midfield (though I'd have kept Thijssen over Ardiles personally).

I'd give Tuppet the goalie, wingers and forwards ... E/TRV the defence (maybe, close) and midfield. Tuppet key point is the proven Beardsley link.... E/TRV key is midfield and right of defence.

Be interested to hear how each side sees opposition (now open) and where they see the big wins for their respective teams.

Yeah I'm calling the defences even. If you're compiling a back four it's McGrain - Walker - Hansen - Cooper, with Shilton in the sticks.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yeah I'm calling the defences even. If you're compiling a back four it's McGrain - Walker - Hansen - Cooper, with Shilton in the sticks.

I'd agree with you if we're taking their whole career in mind, although I'm not sure Cooper is better than Winterburn personally, and in the time frame as well considering how solid was Winterburn in that Arsenal back 4(or even 5 at times). Of course on Cooper/Winterburn I can understand if the voters would disagree


Now onto the CB's and RB I think we have the advantage as a unit and also stylistically.

Both Hunter and Walker are excellent choices IMO against Rush and Beardsley as they both don't lack pace and are really rugged and strong defenders(especially Hunter) whilst also both being at their best here.

Hunter was PFA Players' Player of the Year in 1974 on the back of 29 unbeaten run by Leeds to become champions, whilst Walker alongside McGrath and Hansen is one of the outstanding CB's in the draft.

Mike England was very good and still good as mentioned but he was 30+ in the period of the draft and Lineker, Francis and Sheedy - all are fast agile forwards who can cause him and Hansen (who was an excellent defender but lacked pace) a lot of trouble.

And of course McGrain is the best RB in the pool and a tier above the opposition right back.

Both combined - their resumes in the selected period and also stylistically considering who they are facing IMO gives us the edge there.

That and the midfield where we have even bigger edge IMO should win us the game.

 

[Enigma_87]

A bit more about KEVIN SHEEDY:


^^

excellent left peg and also top notch FK technique:

He had a cannon of a shot and didn't need much time or space to find the net. With a more attacking wingers that Tuppet has - Barnes was more of an old fashioned winter timing his runs and conserving his energy in attack, whilst Jinky also not the most work ethic winger at that stage of his career(and at all) - Sheedy would find a lot of space and time to place his shots especially on counter.

During his 10-year stay, he won the First Division twice – including a first league title for Everton in 15 years – the FA Cup and European Cup Winners’ Cup in a trophy-laden period for the club.

At Goodison Park, Sheedy flourished and developed not only into a great goalscorer but a scorer of great goals, netting an impressive 97 goals in 369 appearances.

The Irishman was one of the most influential figures in the side and his consistently impressive displays were rewarded with a place in the PFA Team of the Year in both of Everton’s championship-winning seasons of 1984-85 and 1986-87, while he also scored in the Cup Winners’ Cup final against Rapid Vienna 3-1.

“I was always confident of my goalscoring ability. I used to get myself in good positions and I had good composure and I could strike the ball well.

“I’m fortunate to be in the position to look back and say I scored a lot of important goals.”

But Sheedy is quick to highlight the importance of the unity within the squad that pushed the team to new heights, with players such as Neville Southall, Gary Stevens and Peter Reid also playing an important part.

on international career:

46 caps and nine goals later, Sheedy’s name is etched into Irish sporting history after he struck one of the most iconic Ireland goals ever scored in Italia ’90, as the side reached the quarter-finals in their maiden World Cup campaign.

“They were just great memories. Personally, scoring against England in the 1990 World Cup is one of the best things I’ve done and nobody can take that away from me.

“We were direct, but I think people overlook the fact that it was a direct game but we had quality players playing it.

 

[Gio]

I'd agree with you if we're taking their whole career in mind, although I'm not sure Cooper is better than Winterburn personally, and in the time frame as well considering how solid was Winterburn in that Arsenal back 4(or even 5 at times). Of course on Cooper/Winterburn I can understand if the voters would disagree

I give that to Cooper really. Winterburn has 3 caps, while Cooper has 20 including a World Cup to his name. I think that Cooper did more for a Leeds side that were better than Winterburn's Arsenal (up to 91/92 particularly) and also shone in Europe too.

On Hunter and England, not a lot in it. Hunter's major contribution to Leeds in 1974 stands out, but in terms of their overall careers I'd take England. However, I agree with your point that much of England's body of work is outside the timeframe. He starts the draft period aged 29 so it's really about how well he maintained his peak at that point - I don't know but heard nothing to say he wasn't there or thereabouts until his early 30s or so. Again any evidence to suggest he did hold his peak or didn't would be welcome from both sides. As for the style point, I don't share your enthusiasm for Hunter excelling against Beardsley or Rush, but happy to be persuaded.

No arguments with your testimony on Walker and McGrain. Hansen is the best defender on the park and IMO in the pool, and I'd pair Walker with him when facing either or the attacks on show here.

 

[Enigma_87]

I give that to Cooper really. Winterburn has 3 caps, while Cooper has 20 including a World Cup to his name. I think that Cooper did more for a Leeds side that were better than Winterburn's Arsenal (up to 91/92 particularly) and also shone in Europe too.

On Hunter and England, not a lot in it. Hunter's major contribution to Leeds in 1974 stands out, but in terms of their overall careers I'd take England. However, I agree with your point that much of England's body of work is outside the timeframe. He starts the draft period aged 29 so it's really about how well he maintained his peak at that point - I don't know but heard nothing to say he wasn't there or thereabouts until his early 30s or so. Again any evidence to suggest he did hold his peak or didn't would be welcome from both sides. As for the style point, I don't share your enthusiasm for Hunter excelling against Beardsley or Rush, but happy to be persuaded.

No arguments with your testimony on Walker and McGrain. Hansen is the best defender on the park and IMO in the pool, and I'd pair Walker with him when facing either or the attacks on show here.

Terry Cooper missed a lot of games during the period mate.

During the time frame and his peak was at Leeds. He started the 70's pretty good, but then broke his leg in April 1972. That led him to miss 20 months of football and in 1975 he was sold to Boro.

During the timeframe he really didn't feature that much to be considered at his peak IMO.

Also his 20 caps (most of them) came before that period and before he broke his leg.

Mike England also struggled with ankle injuries that made him retire from the national side in 1975(and we aren't looking at their overall careers as he only had 4-5 seasons in the time frame).

He was a towering CB who also lacked pace and versatility IMO to cope with our agile and fast forwards.

 

[Enigma_87]

Barnes isn't the biggest threat.... Beardsley is his equal but like a few players, didn't get the obvious headlines that Barnes seemed to attract (or Brady for that matter).... "flair" players always do. I've seen Rush score goals from nothing more times than I can remember (including Vs United, Cup Finals, Europe), something Lineker rarely did. With Johnstone still a top player albeit arguably coming toward the latter part of his career, that front four is the best in the draft, collectively and individually (goals).

Don't disagree about defenders necessarily, though England played in European finals in the early 70s (and scored) so like Johnstone, may be at the latter end of his career, but still good. As I said, pretty even but I can see both sides scoring but Tuppets wide men more so.

You definitely have the best central midfielder but (for the reasons I said.... his 'fit'), maybe not optimal use of him imo and Brady's goal scoring record (being as you have him ahead of Robson and Ardiles) is not great.

I think you may have more possession but it wouldn't be anything like 70/30 and Tuppets forward line would outscore you due to collective and individual better ability.

Imo.

I think Tuppet would really struggle with keeping possession in midfield. Murdoch is past his prime and with little to no help from the wingers they'll find themselves outnumbered there.

I think Cooper is tad overrated given the time frame. He didn't really feature all that lot due to injuries and apart from 6-7 months he wasn't at his peak level IMO.

The midfield definitely lacks defensive edge and won't protect the defence in the same way our midfield does.

Besides on counters they would leave a lot of space that we can exploit and neither of Tuppet's CB's are particularly fast or can handle our forwards when caught higher up the pitch.

 

[The Red Viper]

I give that to Cooper really. Winterburn has 3 caps, while Cooper has 20 including a World Cup to his name. I think that Cooper did more for a Leeds side that were better than Winterburn's Arsenal (up to 91/92 particularly) and also shone in Europe too.

On Hunter and England, not a lot in it. Hunter's major contribution to Leeds in 1974 stands out, but in terms of their overall careers I'd take England. However, I agree with your point that much of England's body of work is outside the timeframe. He starts the draft period aged 29 so it's really about how well he maintained his peak at that point - I don't know but heard nothing to say he wasn't there or thereabouts until his early 30s or so. Again any evidence to suggest he did hold his peak or didn't would be welcome from both sides. As for the style point, I don't share your enthusiasm for Hunter excelling against Beardsley or Rush, but happy to be persuaded.

No arguments with your testimony on Walker and McGrain. Hansen is the best defender on the park and IMO in the pool, and I'd pair Walker with him when facing either or the attacks on show here.

Cooper had 20 caps but majority of them were pre-1972. So, they weren't in this timeline. Post 1972, he only had 1 cap.

Also, you have to consider the competition either had to face as well. Winterburn was up against Pearce and Sansom, two of the best left-backs in this draft. Compared to Cooper, the competition for the caps, was far far greater.

Also, Cooper's best again was pre this time-frame. For Leeds, he only had one good season. He missed around 20 months with injuries and after coming back from the injury and taking time to regain his full-fitness, he was no longer the 1st choice LB for Leeds.

"Leeds won the Fairs Cup again in 1971 but missed out on the League on the last day. One consolation for Cooper on a personal level was that this was his best season for appearances, missing just one League game all season.


He seemed set to follow suit the next season as Leeds again chased League and FA Cup honours, but then suffered a broken leg in April 1972 during a League game at Stoke City. Aside from missing that season's FA Cup final victory over Arsenal, Cooper missed a whole 20 months of football, such were the complications of the injury. Even when he did return to action, he played only one more international game, against Portugal in 1974, after Don Revie had become England manager.


Revie, unable to use Madeley who was already deputising as a central defender due to Jack Charlton's retirement, bought Trevor Cherry in the summer of 1972 as a replacement. Cooper also missed the 1973 FA Cup final defeat to Sunderland and the European Cup Winners Cup final loss to A.C. Milan. When he did come back, it was with just one appearance in the 1974 season, thereby missing out on a League championship medal - Leeds won it with a 29-match unbeaten start - due to a lack of games.


Cooper's Leeds career was effectively over by the time he regained his fitness. The departure of Revie for the England job in 1974 and the emergence over the next season of Frank Gray, younger brother of Eddie, as well as the presence of Cherry, rendered Cooper surplus to requirements. He left the club in 1975 to join Middlesbrough who were managed by former Leeds teammate Charlton."

 

[Gio]

Terry Cooper missed a lot of games during the period mate.

During the time frame and his peak was at Leeds. He started the 70's pretty good, but then broke his leg in April 1972. That led him to miss 20 months of football and in 1975 he was sold to Boro.

During the timeframe he really didn't feature that much to be considered at his peak IMO.

Also his 20 caps (most of them) came before that period and before he broke his leg.

Mike England also struggled with ankle injuries that made him retire from the national side in 1975(and we aren't looking at their overall careers as he only had 4-5 seasons in the time frame).

He was a towering CB who also lacked pace and versatility IMO to cope with our agile and fast forwards.

Fair point (@The Red Viper too) - didn't realise Cooper succumbed to injury in '72 - had thought it was later on. Does explain why he didn't get 40-50 caps.

 

[The Red Viper]

A lot of Tuppet's players aren't at their peak here. They are past their best. Now some may have still been good like Johnstone and Ball, they were nowhere near their individual best.

Jimmy Johnstone - Had a couple of good seasons at best and even then Jock Stein considered dropping him for few games because of his indiscipline.

Alan Ball - When you think Alan Ball, you always think of Alan Ball at Everton. At Arsenal, he was a good solid player but he won nothing for Arsenal and didn't have any individual honours either. Not to mention, he missed a lot of games due to injury. Had a leg break and missed some time.

Bobby Murdoch - Another player who was way past his prime here. He had less than 40 league appearances for Celtic in this time. And that was mared with injuries. He had weight issues as well.

Terry Cooper - Played around 4 seasons for Leeds in this time-frame but missed around 20 months, ie nearly half of Leeds' career in this time-frame, due to injuries and by the time he came back and regain full fitness, he was no longer the 1st choice left back for Leeds.

Tuppet has a good team. Now, if those player I mentioned were at their peak, yeah, I can understand the argument of his team being as good as ours' or better. But considering he has 4 outfield players who weren't at their peaks, I am not buying he has a better team than us.

 

[The Red Viper]

Also, tactically, as great as Tuppet's attack is, we are much better equipped dealing with his attack than he would be to deal against our midfield.

Barnes is up against McGrain, the best right back of the draft. Des Walker and Hunter are both fantastic defenders. We may not be able to completely shutdown that attack of Barnes - Beardsley - Rush, but we would certainly do a solid job of restricting their influence. Compared to how Tuppet's midfield would fare against ours.

Ball wouldn't offer much help defensively. Neither would Barnes and Jinky. So, Murdoch is essentially on his own here, that too when he was past his peak and was overweight against Brady and Robson, who would absolutely annihilate that midfield. He has no one to keep up with Brady or check Robson's runs into the box.

 

[The Red Viper]

Nothings really changed for me - know the players anyway.

Looking at individuals/best players in position, I'd say Tuppet has the goalie (by a mile), a defender, a midfielder (Ball was excellent, no Robson but no-one was), wingers and forward. E/TRV two defenders, one midfielder, nothing in the LBs and MAYBE Brady/Beardsley tie.... no doubting Brady was a lovely player to watch but end result? (Beardsley's goal ratio about 1-3?, never mind assists).

Defensively, little in it (apart from goalie which seems to get ignored every draft) and no doubt Lineker and Rush could score, and that Beardsley and Brady could set up. Difference is wingers for Tuppet (more threat both sides), difference is midfield for E/TRV though would still have Thijssen over Ardiles and wouldn't have a midfielder ahead of Robson - the former means Robson has more defensive duties and the latter could restrict his forward surges. Better with a holding MFer and room ahead of him.

Collectively, Tuppets team formation is more suited to the players he has.

Beardsley is up against Walker - Hunter with help from Robson. I think they'll do a solid job against him. Robson dominated against the likes of Maradona and Platini. As good as Beardsley was and I love him, he isn't as good as those two.

Now compare it to Brady who is up against past his peak and overweight, Murdoch on his own, he stands no chance against Brady. And yeah, there's the runs from Robson and Ardiles which Tuppet's midfield also has to worry about and have no answer against.

Regarding why we chose Ardiles over Thijssen, Thijssen was a very good player. But we feel Ardiles was a better player. Not to mention, he would sit Robson lot more than Thijssen would have. Thijssen was gritty and had excellent close control. Ardiles was a much better passer and playmaker. Having a playmaker deep means, we don't put more work-load on Robson and let him do what he does best. Just dominate the game as a box-box midfielder, in a game, where he won't have much resistance whenever he makes runs into opposition half. Also, with Ardiles, we have a player who with his passing ability and passing range, can initiate swift counter attacks from the back and exploit the lack of pace in Tuppet's defense and midfield. As good as Hansen was, pace was his kryptonite. And with Lineker having a good record against him, we expect Gary to pounce in and get a goal or two.

 

[The Red Viper]

From:- http://strettynews.com/1984-cup-winners-cup-quarter-final-when-bryan-robson-owned-diego-maradona/

1984 Cup Winners Cup Quarter-Final: When Bryan Robson owned Diego Maradona.

In 1984 after sixteen years since we conquered Europe, Manchester United found themselves in an impossible, against all odds situation when they faced Diego Maradona’s Barcelona in the European Cup Winners Cup quarter-final.

United were 2-0 down after being given a footballing lesson at the Nou Camp. The atmosphere leading up to the game was one of despondence, with a slight cheeky glimmer of hope.

The team line-ups for that evening in March was:

Manchester United: Bailey, Duxbury, Albiston, Wilkins, Moran, Hogg, Robson, Muhren, Stapleton, Whiteside, Moses.

Barcelona: Urruticoechea, Concepcion, Moratalla, Alberto, Munoz, Alexanco, Pichi Alonso, Schuster, Juan Carlos Rojo, Maradona, [Irrelevant point].

Now to make matters worse, Barcelona were guided by the Great Cesar Luis Menotti and to be fair to Ron Atkinson, as charismatic as he was and a style of play that suited his wardrobe, when it came to tactics, against Menotti you didn’t fancy him.

However, Big Ron’s style of play gave the fans hope, even though deep down every fan knew a single goal from the best player of all time, could happen at just about any moment of his choosing, he was that good.

Maradona must have been thinking: “Right! Lets win this and get out of this Country and back to the sunshine.” Remember at the time Maradona had a big reason to drive an arrow into the hearts of our club, his country after all was falling apart and Great Britain had just humiliated Argentina over the Falkland Islands, so Diego was up for this.

However Diego hadn’t taken into account two things, one was the Manchester United crowd and of course, Bryan ‘Captain Marvel’ Robson.

How Barcelona must have wished he was injured, because Robbo put in a performance that many who witnessed it regard as the greatest they ever saw.

We had forgotten nights like this and Atkinson would remind us what European football is really about. This would be one of the great Old Trafford nights.

Bryan Robson from the off was like a man possessed, the team clearly responded and so did the fans. Their despondence suddenly turned into a cauldron of support that even the great Sir Bobby Charlton commented that he had rarely known a more noisy crowd.

With 22 minutes gone Robson connected with a diving header from Ray Wilkins’ corner sending the crowd absolutely wild and giving the fans confidence which would build and build during those tense half time minutes.

The whistle to start the second half got the 58,350 crowd going again and the team responded and drove forward, then five minutes after the break, Robson forced home from close-range after the goalkeeper who had misjudged the tremors from the stamping feet of the Old Trafford faithful, fumbled a Wilkins cross, it was game on we had the momentum. Not settling for that amazing achievement, Robson got us going again with a majestic outside of the left foot pass to the fullback, who crossed to Norman Whiteside, he knocked it down and there was Frank Stapleton with balls of steel to smash it from such an acute angle and history was made…