Premier League Draft SF: Enigma vs Religion

[Šjor Bepo]

vs

Team Enigma

Tactics – Direct, Attacking
Formation – 442, easily merging into 4-3-3
Defensive Line - Balanced
Marking – Zonal

Defence:
Fairly bog standard setup of defensive line. Stam comes to the fore as one of the greatest ever PL defenders. Next to him is Desailly who on his own is also one of the greatest CB's in the pool(and all time) playing alongside the new addition Andrew Robertson who established himself as one of the greatest LB in the PL era. Petrescu is in more attacking role, able to roam on the right flank and make it his own. In front of him Beckham provides balance as he's able to tuck in and further strengthen the core of our midfield that protects the back four.

Midfield:
Son plays out wide as a left winger/left wide forward role where he can cut in and score, whilst also stretch the opposition defensive line on counter and use his pace to punish the opposition and catch them on the back foot. The cream of the crop is Roy Keane next to Vieira forming the best CM duo in the PL era. A midfield base of two midfield generals who I think compliment each other very well, with one of them - Keane more defensive minded but also able to stuck in and sweep in behind when we are off the ball and Vieira, who with his long strides can surge forward when on the ball and add to the attacking threats in front of him. Beckham is in his zone bringing his phenomenal passing ability and also balance to the midfield being able to add numbers in the middle but also stretch the opposition defence and double on the flank alongside Petrescu.

Attack:
A familiar duo, Wright and Bergkamp scored combined 116 goals for the 3 seasons when they overlapped at Arsenal. Both are in their native roles with Bergkamp as main conductor of the team spreading up passes and looking to unleash Wright/Son through goal.




Team Religion

Formation: Lopsided 4-4-2

With the addition of Cristiano Ronaldo, our attack is nigh-on unstoppable. Ronaldo and Henry boast the two highest peaks of all the attackers we've seen in the Premier League, and in Robin van Persie they have a technically brilliant foil who excelled in bringing his forward partners into the game.

The set up should be quite familiar Ronaldo too, given it's parallels with the lopsided 4-4-2 that Fergie frequently deployed in the 2006-09 period. Ronaldo starts on the right of a mobile and creative attacking unit capable of kaleidoscopic positional interchanges, with Eriksen playing deeper and tucked in on the left of midfield to support the holding midfield duo of Scholes and Essien.

Our other new arrival is tailor-made to complement Ronaldo. The outstanding defensive/balanced RB in the pool alongside Azpilicueta, Gary Neville notched up 138 appearances alongside Ronaldo, tirelessly providing an option on the overlap and defending his flank with his customary resolve and intelligence.

Player Overview


Lehmann - One of the invincibles and a commanding, quality shot stopper. Boasted great distribution and brought the best from his team mates. European goalkeeper of the year whilst at Arsenal (and a World Cup All Star). Still holds the record of consecutive clean sheets in the Champions League and highest number of minutes without conceding a goal. A maverick and character yes but also very good.

Neville - Probably the outstanding balanced RB in the pool. An excellent defender and a real asset on the overlap, he was also a serial winner and leader.

Cancelo - Superb modern day full back with fantastic technique and immense influence over his team's build-up play.

T.Silva - If anyone was in doubt about this man’s quality the league cup final a few days ago surely put that to bed. Described by both Rio and Ronaldo as the best defender in the world he offers the complete package as the perfect modern day CB; pace, passing ability, anticipation and reading of the game, ability in the air.. criticism of his leadership and mentality is irrelevant here as he partners the monstrous John Terry. The perfect combination.

Terry - Whatever you think of the man himself as a player he was one of the best PL defenders of all time (either him or Rio depending on the style you prefer). Five time FIFA world XI member, three time UEFA defender of the year and a World Cup All Star. People will view him as a stopper but he actually had much more to his game; nice passing range, natural leadership by example, goals, recovery pace and an ability to anticipate and read the game like no other. 214 clean sheets.. impressive. Completes a perfect CB partnership.

Scholes - I don’t believe I need to say much here but as my deep lying playmaker there’s no better in the draft, and in my view, the world. His role here allows him to dictate from deep, picking long or short passes to feed the forwards and linking in with Eriksen in the final third. He just didn’t give the ball away and even if you try you aren’t getting it off him. Period.

Essien - At his peak one of the best midfield players in the world and surely the most complete. Powerful defensively with his tough tackling, physicality and drive, he also had a superb engine allowing him to operate box to box and influence the game in the final third. A technically superb intelligent footballer and another natural leader. Here he is the primary defensive cog in the midfield and works well with Terry offering the team a solid and tough core.

Eriksen - Moved to a LM role here he is still able to create, drift inside into pockets behind the forwards, and in the channel. In attacking phases he is the creative spark, orchestrating attacking phases and using his intelligence to create and utilise space. With over 50 goals and 60 PL assists it’s hard to see how he doesn’t influence proceedings especially with the quality of Scholes and Essien behind him and the footballing intelligence of van Persie and Henry to link up with.

Ronaldo - Simply unstoppable during his Premier League peak.

RvP - What. A. Player. Only Shearer and Henry with higher goal per game ratio in PL, 11/12 season scored 37/48 for Arsenal in all competitions then in 12/13 season arguably a best ever individual season performance with 34/35 including 15 PL assists. 25 CL goals at a rate of 0.42 per game. An absolute machine and for me the most classy, complete forward in the draft. He could do it all. Big game player with bags of intelligence and pedigree. With his technical qualities and ability with his back to goal, he plays a key role in knitting together our attack. As Wenger describes,"He is the kind of player, with the type of game we play, who is vital because when you play the ball to his feet his first touch is always perfect and that allows others to join in. It makes everybody dangerous."

Henry - Arguably the best player to grace the PL and one of the best of all time. World Cup winner, European Championship winner, two time FIFA world player of the year, five time UEFA team of the season member, four time golden boot winner who scored over 20 goals in five consecutive PL seasons. Henry was also a master creator boasting the highest volume of assists in a season with 20. Two footed, versatile, can get at you on the inside or the out. Unplayable.

Summary

I genuinely believe this team has it all; mentally and physically tough, hard to beat, impossible to play through and with an unstoppable array of attacking talent. A complete nightmare to play against as with each avenue you close another opens up.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@TheReligion @Enigma_87 good luck!

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Mustard finally became a religion so his vote doesnt count as he is the AM

 

[TheReligion]

@TheReligion @Enigma_87 good luck!

Thanks. good luck @Enigma_87 (you didn’t get the memo? We play in red!)

 

[General_Elegancia]

Thanks, @Šjor Bepo for setting up.

Good luck to both of you, I hope this will as heat as Gio vs Skizzo ahaha.

@TheReligion @Enigma_87

 

[TheReligion]

Keane and Viera arguing with each other in the midfield. I see it now!

Thanks, @Šjor Bepo for setting up.

Good luck to both of you, I hope this will as heat as Gio vs Skizzo ahaha.

@TheReligion @Enigma_87

Thanks General!

 

[Jim Beam]

That's a very musturdly formation!

 

[Pat_Mustard]

That's a very musturdly formation!

I got quite enthusiastic about the arrows this time

Spoiler

 

[Jim Beam]

Think that cnut Robertson is a good fit for Ronaldo. Would frustrate him and made it a physical battle in which that twat thrives. Someone like Robson would be great here just to go 5 minutes on that side and make a nasty challenge which would calm Robertson down.

However, an awful lot of weapon on Religion side even without him (which is quite something). Scholes, Eriksen, Henry, RVP with Essien on the side looks quite scary.

Still, this is one of enigma's better side in my eyes. Less shiny, but damn good. Well done to both.

 

[Jim Beam]

Spoiler

Missed that fellow.

 

[Jim Beam]

Giggs admits Robbo was his minder when he was first coming through at United.

He recalled to the Telegraph: "This Sheffield United right-back was kicking me in one game, giving me a few verbals and it affected me a little bit. I said to Robbo: 'That right-back's just said he's going to break my legs.' Robbo said: 'Did he? You come and play centre-midfield. I'm going to play left wing for 10 minutes.'

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Think that cnut Robertson is a good fit for Ronaldo. Would frustrate him and made it a physical battle in which that twat thrives. Someone like Robson would be great here just to go 5 minutes on that side and make a nasty challenge which would calm Robertson down.

However, an awful lot of weapon on Religion side even without him (which is quite something). Scholes, Eriksen, Henry, RVP with Essien on the side looks quite scary.

Still, this is one of enigma's better side in my eyes. Less shiny, but damn good. Well done to both.

Step forward Mr Essien

 

[TheReligion]

There’s just too much movement, pace, creativity and firepower here for @Enigma_87 to keep quiet. Sorry dude.

On the other hand the addition of the criminally underrated Gary Neville at the back solidifies the defensive unit whilst offering a threat on the overlap, and proven partnership with Ronaldo.

As good as Ian Wright was he looks out of place here and I disagree that Robertson could handle peak Ronaldo; as we’ve seen this season, he’d get frustrated, try and get physical and end up making reckless challenges.

With Keane, Robertson and Viera on the pitch against this lot at least one of them is seeing red inside 90 minutes.

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks. good luck @Enigma_87 (you didn’t get the memo? We play in red!)

All the best mate, and to @Pat_Mustard too!

 

[Enigma_87]

So whilst Keano needs no introduction, a brilliant piece on him and why I went with him and why I think it works pretty well not only in terms of quality alongside Vieira but the way it compliments to his game in the middle of the park:

One of Roy Keane's best qualities as a player is criminally overlooked and underrated


"He used to always say, 'If you're ever in trouble, even if I've got men around me, just give me the ball and I'll get you out of trouble.'"
For some, the question about which midfielder was better, Paul Scholes, Steven Gerrard or Frank Lampard, is bound to raise a smile or a shake of the head. The debate is somewhat flawed because Roy Keane was better than the three of them. The Irishman is the best midfielder the Premier League has seen.

He wasn't as gifted as Scholes, as athletic as Gerrard and didn't score as many goals as Lampard. But this trio of Premier League legends couldn't control a game like Keane. None of them had the impact on their teams, or English football, the way Keane had at Manchester United for just over 12 years. He was the most important player for one of the world's biggest clubs during their most successful era.
#AD

However, Keane's personality and reputation, the anecdotes and the caricature, have almost overshadowed how he ascended to the peak of the sport and his achievements.

When he was 18, Keane was on the dole in Cork, overlooked by English clubs because of his height and about to sign for Cobh Ramblers in the second tier of Irish football. When he was 28, he was the best and most important player in English football, United's captain, the best-paid player in the Premier League and the best midfielder in the world.

He won seven Premier League titles, four FA Cups and the Champions League (despite missing the final through suspension). He was also named PFA Player of the Year and in the association's Team of the Century. He dragged the Republic of Ireland to the 2002 World Cup and United to the 1999 Champions League final.

Yet, any mention of Roy Keane the footballer is likely to be met with references to his tunnel dispute with Patrick Vieira, or his horror tackle on Alf-Inge Haaland, or how he put the fear of god into his teammates and the opposition. Keane's passing ability is rarely mentioned, and that is almost criminal.

In addition to his fierce intelligence, his limitless energy and his exceptional positional sense, the Irishman's passing was world class. Wayne Rooney said Keane was the best passer of the ball he ever played alongside. Rooney played alongside Scholes for nine years at Old Trafford, and with Gerrard and Lampard for 11 years for England, yet just one full season alongside Keane was enough to convince him of his excellence on the ball.

Darren Fletcher said his former captain had the best first touch he ever saw. Fletcher's claim is equally impressive considering the incredible footballers he played alongside and against.

As Rio Ferdinand can attest, Keane passed the ball forward.

"I got the ball and passed to Gary [Neville], who was on my team. In a normal game that was a great ball - pass to your teammate, go up the pitch. And then Keane turned round and just started going,
"Pass the fecking ball forward, take risks, you're not at Leeds or West Ham now, you're at Manchester United!'
"I got home later that day and thought, 'This guy is nuts, how am I going to deal with him on a daily basis?'
"And then I realised that you've got to take chances and that's how I ended up playing my career. Not just passing the simple ball to Gary, but into the strikers to make a difference."

As Gary Neville spoke about in his autobiography, Keane was extremely efficient in possession and expected the ball to be moved quickly.

"There was a time, a match at Coventry, when Keano came storming at me after I’d taken an extra touch to steady myself before getting a cross over. Thrusting his head forward – I honestly thought he was going to butt me – he screamed,'
"'fecking get the ball over!’
"'Can I not take a fecking touch?’
"'Who the hell are you talking to? Get the fecking ball over!’
"It was like having a snarling pitbull in my face. And I’d thought Schmeichel was a hard taskmaster. One extra touch and Keano was slaughtering me."

Keane demanded these standards of others, but he also practised what he preached.

He didn't play Hollywood balls, raking cross-field passes that looked good, but weren't always effective because they gave the opposition time to shift across and stifle out the attack.

Keane's passes were so effective because they broke the lines, and he always played the ball into teammates' feet.

He enabled Scholes to play further forward, brought United's strikers into play and the team sprang into life when he came into possession, with David Beckham and Ryan Giggs running off him and the full-backs pushing on. When Keane was on the ball, United were safe.

He kept it simple, taking one touch to control and another to play a sharp ball to his teammates. He landed the ball at their feet and rarely hit a loose pass.

In the late 1990s, when United were the most thrilling counter-attacking side in Europe, Keane's passing was vital in getting the team up the pitch and into areas where they could hurt the opposition.

He also drove forward from midfield in his early years.

In his first couple of seasons, he played as a traditional box-to-box midfielder who got his fair share of goals.

Gradually he adapted to become more of a controlling presence in midfield, winning the ball and starting attacks rather than running beyond the opposition.

United became more cautious in the early 2000s, switching from a 4-4-2 formation to playing a lone striker, and Keane himself slowed down. After a hip operation in 2002, he could no longer be the driving force from midfield he had been. His intensity dipped a level or two on the pitch and he adapted his game somewhat, but his passing remained impeccable and helped United control games. His influence remained as strong, despite his advancing years.

No touch was wasted, the ball never went sideways or backwards for the sake of it and it was never aimlessly lumped towards a forward's head.

He was precise, efficient and effective. The complete midfield player.


There is absolutely nothing flashy about any of these passes, and they aren't aesthetically eye-catching, but their effectiveness can't be understated and they would have been greatly appreciated by teammates.

"His touch was immaculate, he had the best first touch. All these things were so underrated in his game," Fletcher said about Keane a few years ago.

"Everyone looked at him as this ferocious competitor and box-to-box runner and tackler. That wasn’t false, but, with the ball, he had one of the best first touches and the best pass forward into the attacking half to break the lines of the opposition that I’ve ever seen... Because Roy controlled the midfield, Scholesy was then the one who got forward and got goals and used his technique higher up the pitch."

Keane's ability on the ball has been called "underrated" by Neville, who said his former captain used the ball "astutely."

"But perhaps his greatest gift was to create a standard of performance which demanded the very best from his team. You would look at him busting a gut and feel that you’d be betraying him if you didn’t give everything yourself."

Keane's excellent passing contributed to this "standard of performance" that Neville spoke about.

According to Phil Neville, the Irishman told him that, "If you're ever in trouble, even if I've got men around me, just give me the ball and I'll get you out of trouble." This is the type of leadership that goes beyond barking at teammates or flying into tackles, or the traditional British and Irish ideals of what constitutes a leader on the pitch.


It could be argued that this image of a leader, which Keane embodied, in part explains why his passing has been underrated by many. People remember him snapping into challenges and screaming at teammates, but the impressive passages of play aren't always recalled. A perfect example of this is Keane's performance against The Netherlands in 2001 when Ireland won 1-0 in Dublin on their way to qualifying for the World Cup.

Everyone in Ireland remembers Keane's crunching tackle on Marc Overmars in the opening minute, seeing it as a defining moment of the game, a marker set down that showed it wouldn't be the Dutch team's day.


Which is was, but Overmars still went on to play well, and Keane's contribution went way beyond that tackle.

The Ireland captain played a massive part in creating Jason McAteer's goal, collecting the ball out wide, he forced his way past Mark van Bommel and drew a tackle from Jaap Stam before laying the ball off to Damien Duff.

Duff then played it out wide to Steve Finnan, who found McAteer to score and set Ireland up for a place at the World Cup.

The goal came about because of Keane driving the team forward, by taking responsibility as he did on countless occasions for United and Ireland. The bigger the game, the better Keane played. He was never rotated or rested by Alex Ferguson for the important matches. He played 79 times in the Champions League and only one appearance was as a substitute. Unlike the rest of United's talented team, Keane was indispensable.

His explosive argument with Ferguson hastened his departure from Old Trafford in November 2005, rather than his declining ability on the field. Keane wasn't the player he had been a few years previously, but he was still capable of dominating a game, as evidenced by his display against Liverpool in January 2005.

United won the game at Anfield 1-0, thanks to Wayne Rooney's goal, and their captain's performance proved pivotal. Olivier Kay, writing in The Times, said Gerrard "was in Keane's shadow throughout", called the Irishman's performance a "masterclass" and a "lesson in how to control midfield." Gerrard was entering the peak years of his career, but the Liverpool captain couldn't get near the 33-year-old Irishman who would be retired within 18-months.

Against one of the best midfielders in the world, after several injuries and a hip-operation, in the winter of his career and at the most hostile ground in Britain for United, Keane ran the game.

Keane's mythical status has grown since he retired, thanks to the anecdotes and autobiographies, and this caricature has arguably overshadowed his ability as a footballer. By always showing for the ball, using it efficiently and effectively, and bringing the best out of his teammates, he led by example. Shouting and screaming, and being excessively demanding of your teammates, will only get you so far. You need to be able to play, and Keane was one of the best.

Underpinning his intensity and drive, his ferocious competitive spirit and his aggression, was a brilliant, intelligent footballer. 12 years after he retired, Keane remains the best midfielder the Premier League has seen.

-------------------------------------------
Having said that a short piece on the Arsenal invincibles:

Basically a lot of similarities can be seen in the way we shape up above and whilst this is not a carbon copy of the invincibles, I'd like to point out couple of things of how we intend to play:

1. The reason why I went in details to explain Keane's role here. He can move deeper and initiate the attacks when we're on the ball, he can also offer a "way out" with his one touch play and movement, whilst our defensive phase is again 2 blocks of 4, similarly to how both Arsenal and United played, aided by the wide midfielders and if the opposition bypasses the initial press then Bergkamp falling back into midfield with the eye of recouping possession and unleashing the pace of Wright, Son, Petrescu or Robertson pushing up.

2. Obviously Henry's role can't be replicated easily in this setup in terms of quality, but Son is a brilliant player to use as counter attacking weapon and catch the opposition on the backfoot. He has the ability to use the space and the football brain to find channels both inside and outside, whilst the pace and technique to leave a defender on the deck.

on top of that he has proven he is someone who can also work his ass off and contribute in both phases using his bursts of pace to either dispossess the opposition or storm inside space with or without the ball with couple of quick steps.

3. Our backline is fast and strong. Able to transition quick and also having the tools in their locker to keep up with the opposition attacking threat.

 

[Enigma_87]

Think that cnut Robertson is a good fit for Ronaldo. Would frustrate him and made it a physical battle in which that twat thrives. Someone like Robson would be great here just to go 5 minutes on that side and make a nasty challenge which would calm Robertson down.

However, an awful lot of weapon on Religion side even without him (which is quite something). Scholes, Eriksen, Henry, RVP with Essien on the side looks quite scary.

Still, this is one of enigma's better side in my eyes. Less shiny, but damn good. Well done to both.

Cheers, Jim. I obviously agree with you on Robertson note, as he has the game to frustrate Ronaldo. Obviously the opposition has a class team, but I think our side has the ability to outwork them and also win the key midfield battle, giving us more opportunities on the ball and also finding space on counter.

For one I think both Henry and RvP were much better as being the main man. I mean they played together but at the time RvP was mostly used as a left winger and injuries and also that sidekick position didn't really allow him to express himself at his peak level. Similarly Henry was at his best with Bergkamp who allowed him to roam and used his vision and passing ability to exploit channels and space.

Obviously Henry/RvP works, but IMO not optimal for RvP to be at his peak level. And on top of that you add Cristiano who was also in free role during his United years and Eriksen who was more or less #10 for Spurs in a double pivot base.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think Enigma's team is just perfect. Clear tactics and players who fit in perfectly. Wright aside, I'm curious how he'll upgrade (assuming he wins).

Religion's team takes a bit more to get used to. Peak Cristiano was in free role forward with Rooney and Tevez working off him. I don't really see that with Henry and RvP. I'm finding it difficult to see Eriksen, Scholes and Cristiano as complimentary.

 

[Enigma_87]

There’s just too much movement, pace, creativity and firepower here for @Enigma_87 to keep quiet. Sorry dude.

On the other hand the addition of the criminally underrated Gary Neville at the back solidifies the defensive unit whilst offering a threat on the overlap, and proven partnership with Ronaldo.

The proven partnership also coincided with the latter years of Neville's career. He was already on the wane when we signed Ronaldo and was losing his legs fast. Against Son I'm afraid it's a bit of a mismatch as he can burn him with pace and also exploit well the gaps when you are on the backfoot. Neville was a very solid and dependable full back, United servant and captain, but I really don't like the matchup between him and Son. He's the type of player that can capitalize on one on ones and I don't think Cristiano will help him much tracking back.

As good as Ian Wright was he looks out of place here and I disagree that Robertson could handle peak Ronaldo; as we’ve seen this season, he’d get frustrated, try and get physical and end up making reckless challenges.

Whilst Ian Wright is not the cream of the crop, he has a great understanding with Bergkamp. He also has the physical and mental tools to fit in this team seamlessly. Fast, direct, able to use space, excellent finishing and movement off the ball.
There's also this:

At a mere 3 seasons playing together both Wright and Bergkamp scored combined 116 goals at Arsenal. And here they play in their native roles without really any overlap.

With Keane, Robertson and Viera on the pitch against this lot at least one of them is seeing red inside 90 minutes.

Robertson is a surprising inclusion on that list, as he has just one red card in 209 apps in PL. And whilst Keane and Vieira has seen red on several occasions same can be said about Scholes and especially Terry who isn't that far off their numbers.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think Enigma's team is just perfect. Clear tactics and players who fit in perfectly. Wright aside, I'm curious how he'll upgrade (assuming he wins).

Religion's team takes a bit more to get used to. Peak Cristiano was in free role forward with Rooney and Tevez working off him. I don't really see that with Henry and RvP. I'm finding it difficult to see Eriksen, Scholes and Cristiano as complimentary.

Just to highlight this once more and as some of the Arsenal tactics during their best years, Henry was the type of player that would press high and then wait up to pounce on a deep pass or roam around the backline. He would use his pace in bursts and sometimes just rest up field. Eriksen too would drop back but he was more central usually and also relied on DM and defensive box to box to do the heavy lifting when the team was off the ball. On top of that Cristiano and RvP were never the hard working type that would offer support to their full backs and in RvP's case his best came when he was transitioned to CF when Henry left.

Scholes and Essien are obviously a great pair, but considering who they are up against they will have their hands full.

Son and Becks isolated one on one against the full backs can prove to be decisive advantage in our favor.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Cheers, Jim. I obviously agree with you on Robertson note, as he has the game to frustrate Ronaldo. Obviously the opposition has a class team, but I think our side has the ability to outwork them and also win the key midfield battle, giving us more opportunities on the ball and also finding space on counter.

For one I think both Henry and RvP were much better as being the main man. I mean they played together but at the time RvP was mostly used as a left winger and injuries and also that sidekick position didn't really allow him to express himself at his peak level. Similarly Henry was at his best with Bergkamp who allowed him to roam and used his vision and passing ability to exploit channels and space.

Obviously Henry/RvP works, but IMO not optimal for RvP to be at his peak level. And on top of that you add Cristiano who was also in free role during his United years and Eriksen who was more or less #10 for Spurs in a double pivot base.

We expected that line of criticism regarding RVP and Henry but find it to be a bit lazy. The most important factor to note is that their peaks simply didn't overlap - Van Persie was injury-riddled for much of his early career in particular which slowed down his development, and he acknowledged himself that he had attitude problems when he was younger. It's worth noting as well that when RVP really began hitting his stride around 2006-07 Henry was suffering badly with injuries which spelt the end of his absolute prime. As regards RVP mostly playing on the left wing in that period - well yeah, he was signed as a winger from Feyenoord. Not sure how that's applicable to the older, peak version we're clearly playing here. I also don't know why RVP wouldn't allow Henry to roam.

 

[TheReligion]

So just for the record;

Ronaldo and Neville played 139 games together (Neville’s legs had gone?!)

RvP and Henry played 72 together.

When you add Scholes, and the Terry/Essein partnership to the mix, you see a team built around chemistry with leaders and winners in every single area of the pitch.

Gary Neville is vastly underrated and arguably the best right back to grace the PL. Do you really play 400 games for United, win over 20 trophies and a become your countries most capped right back (85) by being just decent?

Don’t think it’s the greatest argument to suggest Son wins that battle because he’s quick. If anything I’d argue the opposite. Neville was relentless, had high levels of workrate and a fantastic engine. What set him apart was he knew his limitations and compensated in his reading of the game and positional and tactical intelligence. He was a brilliant defensive full back and perfect on this side of the pitch behind Ronaldo.

 

[Enigma_87]

We expected that line of criticism regarding RVP and Henry but find it to be a bit lazy. The most important factor to note is that their peaks simply didn't overlap - Van Persie was injury-riddled for much of his early career in particular which slowed down his development, and he acknowledged himself that he had attitude problems when he was younger. It's worth noting as well that when RVP really began hitting his stride around 2006-07 Henry was suffering badly with injuries which spelt the end of his absolute prime. As regards RVP mostly playing on the left wing in that period - well yeah, he was signed as a winger from Feyenoord. Not sure how that's applicable to the older, peak version we're clearly playing here. I also don't know why RVP wouldn't allow Henry to roam.

It's not only RvP. You also have Ronaldo in the mix who played in a free role. Naturally Henry also plays in a free role and you have Eriksen who has to add numbers to the midfield. It seems a bit top heavy team to me when you consider all players peaks that you play here. Neither of those four did the heavy lifting for their team and they relied on a lot of hard work from the rest of their teammates.

Older RvP is not Henry's ideal partner as well, at least for me. It will require Henry to play a more leftish role like his time at Barca and would not be the optimal use of him. I feel either of them to play his best they have to be the CF and although a bit lazy to me is valid point considering this is the role and position they played at their peak.

 

[TheReligion]

I’m stepping away now and shall leave @Pat_Mustard to the debate.

 

[Enigma_87]

So just for the record;

Ronaldo and Neville played 139 games together (Neville’s legs had gone?!)

As soon as Neville became captain his level was already dropping. His last years were really sad as he couldn't keep with the game and many were questioning him when he will retire. Quite the opposite to what happened to Scholes and Giggs for example who could mould their games. Peak Neville was when he had Becks in front of him and you have to agree that Becks was a whole different animal to Cristiano and would offer the much needed support contrary to when Neville is isolated with Son.

RvP and Henry played 72 together.

It's not just about game of numbers and stats and I think Pat already answered on that point that RvP best at Arsenal during their time together was when Henry was sidelined. It's not just being names on the teamsheet but how they worked together.

On the flipside Wright and Bergkamp was a proven partnership that averaged more than 30 goals per season for three years straight. They both had the individual quality but also the ability to find themselves on the pitch and work well together(well mostly Bergkamp finding Wright but you get my point )

When you add Scholes, and the Terry/Essein partnership to the mix, you see a team built around chemistry with leaders and winners in every single area of the pitch.

Gary Neville is vastly underrated and arguably the best right back to grace the PL. Do you really play 400 games for United, win over 20 trophies and a become your countries most capped right back (85) by being just decent?

Caps and games don't really tell always the whole story. Besides every top player had their certain type of opponents that they wouldn't want to face and to me Son is this type. Besides the original point that you made was the chemistry between Ronaldo and Neville, which IMO is far from "proven" partnership and it caught Neville in the zenith of his career.

Don’t think it’s the greatest argument to suggest Son wins that battle because he’s quick. If anything I’d argue the opposite. Neville was relentless, had high levels of workrate and a fantastic engine. What set him apart was he knew his limitations and compensated in his reading of the game and positional and tactical intelligence. He was a brilliant defensive full back and perfect on this side of the pitch behind Ronaldo.

Son's qualities don't end up with him just being quick. If he was just like that he'd be another Aaron Lennon. You don't score 119 goals and dish out 71 assists for Spurs in just over 300 games just being quick.

His record against top teams is also very respectable - 7 goals and 3 assists against City, 9 goals against BVB (4 in 5 games in CL and LE playing for Spurs), 3 goals and 2 assists against United, 3 goals against Pool, 2 goals against Chelsea, 4 against Arsenal(and 4 assists), 5 against Leicester (4 assists).

It's not being quick alone his best asset either IMO:

He's much more than that and his football brain is actually what sets him apart from all the other brainless speedsters like Walcott. He knows when to move, where to move, he isn't selfish, often he will lay it to a teammate and chose the better option rather than the greedy one and always take the shot. He has the close control and technique to turn an opponent and also the vision to make a simple pass but effective one laying it to a teammate.

Anyway my point here is not to crap on Neville, but to highlight Son's ability and why he would make it a very tough fit for Gary. Especially with little to no support from Ronaldo.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Eriksen too would drop back but he was more central usually and also relied on DM and defensive box to box to do the heavy lifting when the team was off the ball.

Another highly dubious argument. Eriksen racked up tonnes of appearances as a wide midfielder, most notably during his long stint playing with Dele Alli who could only really play as a second striker.


A good showcase of his abilities as a wide midfielder, bagging two fine assists from the left wing for Spurs' first two goals and then marching infield to rifle home their third. He looks well-suited to this role. As regards letting others do his running for him, not really. That's some company he's in there in terms of engine with the likes of Kante and Henderson on that list.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Older RvP is not Henry's ideal partner as well, at least for me. It will require Henry to play a more leftish role like his time at Barca and would not be the optimal use of him. I feel either of them to play his best they have to be the CF and although a bit lazy to me is valid point considering this is the role and position they played at their peak.

Henry still scored for fun playing alongside the likes of Adebeyor and Francis Jeffers, all without altering his game to his later positionally rigid Barca role.

RVP himself was more than comfortable playing with a strike partner, as is to be expected from a player who filled every role (CF, SS, LW, RW) across the attack during his career. A typically classy display alongside Chicharito:


I see both Henry and Ronaldo thriving off his classy build-up play and ability to drop off to create space for them to exploit.

 

[Enigma_87]

Another highly dubious argument. Eriksen racked up tonnes of appearances as a wide midfielder, most notably during his long stint playing with Dele Alli who could only really play as a second striker.


A good showcase of his abilities as a wide midfielder, bagging two fine assists from the left wing for Spurs' first two goals and then marching infield to rifle home their third. He looks well-suited to this role. As regards letting others do his running for him, not really. That's some company he's in there in terms of engine with the likes of Kante and Henderson on that list.

Yes he did play as side midfielder, but that in his first couple of years, his best again IMO came when he was moved central, in front of double pivot:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/christian-eriksen/profil/spieler/69633

He moves a lot off the ball when his team is in possession as a main playmaker and asks for the ball. It's not just distance covered but where he positions himself. Take this game against Norwich for example:

Brighton.

Hull.

So whilst he covers a lot of ground on a very rare occasion he plays like typical side midfielder that defends the flank all up to the full back. His heat map is usually in advanced position inside the opposition half.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

He played in a team that deployed an aggressive high press and you've posted images from matches against Norwich, Brighton and Hull - you'd expect most of his involvements to take place high up the park.

That one actually looks ideal in terms of what we want from him in possession. A good balance of utilising space out wide and influencing things in the centre.

 

[Enigma_87]

Henry still scored for fun playing alongside the likes of Adebeyor and Francis Jeffers, all without altering his game to his later positionally rigid Barca role.

RVP himself was more than comfortable playing with a strike partner, as is to be expected from a player who filled every role (CF, SS, LW, RW) across the attack during his career. A typically classy display alongside Chicharito:


I see both Henry and Ronaldo thriving off his classy build-up play and ability to drop off to create space for them to exploit.

Yet it's not just RvP and Henry in the equation. You also have Cristiano on the field. All three of them played in free role in their respective league peaks. Ronaldo had Tevez and Rooney working off the ball for him, RvP played in 4-2-3-1 as a CF at his best at Arsenal and later at United again as a lone striker. Henry played with multiple partners true, but you have to agree that the best pairing was with Bergkamp for obvious reasons. On top of that you have three players that are unlikely to contribute much in the defensive phase putting the burden on Eriksen, Scholes and Essien who are facing the two best center midfielders of the PL era.

If you were building a case of RvP and Henry working well with each other as a striker duo then you would be a lot better of with those examples, but you are adding Cristiano to the equation which makes the balance way off.

 

[Enigma_87]

He played in a team that deployed an aggressive high press and you've posted images from matches against Norwich, Brighton and Hull - you'd expect most of his involvements to take place high up the park.



That one actually looks ideal in terms of what we want from him in possession. A good balance of utilising space out wide and influencing things in the centre.

I'd be happy to see one of a typical side midfielder, as even from the video posted you can see him hovering a lot in the attacking third and also changing flanks. The last one doesn't really give you much support to Cancelo and Becks and Petrescu can create a numerical advantage on that side doubling down on him.

As I said initially Eriksen will drop back (mostly centrally) but if you want from him to chase people down the flank, center and at the same time ask him to play his natural game it's wasting him or asking a little too much of him.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Yet it's not just RvP and Henry in the equation. You also have Cristiano on the field. All three of them played in free role in their respective league peaks. Ronaldo had Tevez and Rooney working off the ball for him, RvP played in 4-2-3-1 as a CF at his best at Arsenal and later at United again as a lone striker. Henry played with multiple partners true, but you have to agree that the best pairing was with Bergkamp for obvious reasons. On top of that you have three players that are unlikely to contribute much in the defensive phase putting the burden on Eriksen, Scholes and Essien who are facing the two best center midfielders of the PL era.

If you were building a case of RvP and Henry working well with each other as a striker duo then you would be a lot better of with those examples, but you are adding Cristiano to the equation which makes the balance way off.

Yet RVP played to a superb level for Utd in 2012-13 even when he partnered the likes of Hernandez and Welbeck in a front two. I don't ever remember him playing in a free role either. Similarly Tevez was a significant factor for Utd only for a single season before going off the boil in 2007-08, yet you're painting him as a prerequisite for Ronaldo's success.

I get that you have to over-egg this argument that the front trio will just be standing around up front getting in each other's way as their quality dwarfs that of your attackers, but I don't think it stacks up. There's plenty of pitch for all of them here - in the video I posted above you see RVP dropping way back into his own half to pick up the ball and build an attack. Henry's ability to stretch a defence by drifting wide was one of his defining qualities. Ronaldo was undeniably haphazard defensively but he was a million miles away from a guy that would just stand up front waiting for the ball to come to him.


Plenty of incidences there showcasing his scintillating wing-play and willingness to drop all the way back to his own penalty area to support the team shape and pick up the ball to launch a counter.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yet RVP played to a superb level for Utd in 2012-13 even when he partnered the likes of Hernandez and Welbeck in a front two. I don't ever remember him playing in a free role either. Similarly Tevez was a significant factor for Utd only for a single season before going off the boil in 2007-08, yet you're painting him as a prerequisite for Ronaldo's success.

Hernandez started the grand total of 9 games in PL that season. Welbeck - 13 and he was used in a lot different way than you are using Cristiano and Henry.

I get that you have to over-egg this argument that the front trio will just be standing around up front getting in each other's way as their quality dwarfs that of your attackers, but I don't think it stacks up. There's plenty of pitch for all of them here - in the video I posted above you see RVP dropping way back into his own half to pick up the ball and build an attack. Henry's ability to stretch a defence by drifting wide was one of his defining qualities. Ronaldo was undeniably haphazard defensively but he was a million miles away from a guy that would just stand up front waiting for the ball to come to him.


Plenty of incidences there showcasing his scintillating wing-play and willingness to drop all the way back to his own penalty area to support the team shape and pick up the ball to launch a counter.

It's not them standing doing nothing, but you are relying more on their names than actually the balance in that midfield and attack. No one questions their ability on the ball, and their occasional contribution, but in a slugfest against a team that is not Norwich or Hull or some other fodder that will sit back and don't make a game out of it, their consistent contribution will matter a lot. And I just don't see either of three of them to chase people around the pitch in order to even numbers in midfield.

Your full backs also do look exposed in this set up and vulnerable to being doubled down or isolated one on one against Becks and Son. So far all examples are pinned down to either a striking duo (RvP/Henry) or the United equivalent of Ronaldo, but neither of those examples to me accommodate well those three on the pitch.

We have to agree to disagree that either Eriksen or Ronaldo is the man to cover consistently his full back or the likely contribution you will get from your attacking trio when off the ball.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Let's not forget that Henry proved too hot to handle for Desailly when they faced each other, notching a typically impressive 6 goals in 8 starts against him. Granted, Desailly was well past his sell-by date for some of those later encounters, but here he is getting rag-dolled by Henry in the 99/00 season, mere weeks before he won the Euros with France and right in his PL peak.

Supporting him on the the right side of Enigma's defence is Dan Petrescu, a good attacking outlet motoring forward from RB but far from an elite defender. Henry looks the likeliest matchwinner on the pitch here.

 

[Jim Beam]

Fantastic debate. Makes you wonder the distance we'd go if someone is actually paying us for this shit.

 

[Enigma_87]

Let's not forget that Henry proved too hot to handle for Desailly when they faced each other, notching a typically impressive 6 goals in 8 starts against him. Granted, Desailly was well past his sell-by date for some of those later encounters, but here he is getting rag-dolled by Henry in the 99/00 season, mere weeks before he won the Euros with France and right in his PL peak.

Supporting him on the the right side of Enigma's defence is Dan Petrescu, a good attacking outlet motoring forward from RB but far from an elite defender. Henry looks the likeliest matchwinner on the pitch here.

This example highlights his position and movement when released from (most likely that's Bergkamp with the pass? ) , now imagine another forward who also preferred the left channel (RvP), Cristiano in the side and Eriksen also around that zone.That arsenal team had Grimandi, Petit and Vieira as a base.

Petrescu also didn't play in that game, but played in the first game in that season scoring and assisting one

With Cancelo likely not getting much support on the side.

The more obvious route to goal is actually on the other side with Son tearing the space between Neville and 37 years old Thiago Silva who barely made the cut playing only 46 games in PL in the period.

 

[Enigma_87]

Now when mentioning pace and quick transitions it's worth mentioning that the opposition fields Thiago Silva who is well past his expiry date and whilst playing in 3 man backline for Chelsea he also missed a lot of last season when he had thigh issues and also the beginning of the season:

His CL campaign was not that spectacular in terms of presence either as he managed to stay fit only in the return game against Porto(which Chelsea lost) and in the SF's against Real as significant contribution.

Terry is not known for his pace on the deck and usually had the pacier and complimentary partner in Carvalho next to him at his peak.

Thiago Silva, although still solid defender when fit, which is a big if is way off his peak, facing Bergkamp, Wright, Son, Becks who are actually at their heyday.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

This example highlights his position and movement when released from (most likely that's Bergkamp with the pass? ) , now imagine another forward who also preferred the left channel (RvP), Cristiano in the side and Eriksen also around that zone.That arsenal team had Grimandi, Petit and Vieira as a base.

Petrescu also didn't play in that game, but played in the first game in that season scoring and assisting one

With Cancelo likely not getting much support on the side.

The more obvious route to goal is actually on the other side with Son tearing the space between Neville and 37 years old Thiago Silva who barely made the cut playing only 46 games in PL in the period.

It's hard to keep up with these arguments regarding Eriksen. Firstly you seemed to be suggesting that he was exclusively a central playmaker, now you seem to be arguing that he'll be jostling with Henry to make that run in behind the defence into the left channel? Doesn't seem likely to me. RVP preferring the left channel seems quite baseless too.

This obsession with painting Neville as a weakness is quite odd too. He's a level or two above Petrescu overall and particularly defensively, and Son for all his talent clearly isn't on Henry's level. As for Thiago Silva, he could be 87 years old for all I care. He's been majestic for Chelsea.

It's worth noting the quality of his distribution from defence too:


Some sumptuous passing there, and a level above anything the opposition can muster from those areas.

 

[Enigma_87]

It's hard to keep up with these arguments regarding Eriksen. Firstly you seemed to be suggesting that he was exclusively a central playmaker, now you seem to be arguing that he'll be jostling with Henry to make that run in behind the defence into the left channel? Doesn't seem likely to me. RVP preferring the left channel seems quite baseless too.

Eriksen roams a lot - it's not only from heatmaps it's easily visible when you watch him in the attacking phase. He always looks for the ball turns a lot of km doing so. This is not the same in the defensive phase where he rarely covers the space in his own half, which was the main point from the off.

Eriksen is an attacking midfield and he has 3 forwards in front of him which makes the whole formation top heavy and puts a lot of burden on Scholes and Essien to keep shape and do the heavy lifting. Against our midfield that would be a monumental task, considering the contribution they are likely to receive from the front three.

This obsession with painting Neville as a weakness is quite odd too. He's a level or two above Petrescu overall and particularly defensively, and Son for all his talent clearly isn't on Henry's level. As for Thiago Silva, he could be 87 years old for all I care. He's been majestic for Chelsea.

It's worth noting the quality of his distribution from defence too:


Some sumptuous passing there, and a level above anything the opposition can muster from those areas.

Majestic is a bit of a stretch.First of all he misses quite a lot of games. Secondly he is often part of a 3 man defence where his age won't make him as vulnerable.

He has 1 complete season so far for Chelsea in which he featured 23 times as a starter.

With him on the pitch Chelsea has the following record: 11 wins, 4 draws and 8 losses.
Without him 8 wins, 6 draws, 1 loss.

It's hardly fantastic numbers..

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Old Man Silva's man of the match performance vs Son's Spurs earlier this season, one of three clean sheets he's contributed to vs Spurs so far.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Eriksen roams a lot - it's not only from heatmaps it's easily visible when you watch him in the attacking phase. He always looks for the ball turns a lot of km doing so. This is not the same in the defensive phase where he rarely covers the space in his own half, which was the main point from the off.

Eriksen is an attacking midfield and he has 3 forwards in front of him which makes the whole formation top heavy and puts a lot of burden on Scholes and Essien to keep shape and do the heavy lifting. Against our midfield that would be a monumental task, considering the contribution they are likely to receive from the front three.



Majestic is a bit of a stretch.First of all he misses quite a lot of games. Secondly he is often part of a 3 man defence where his age won't make him as vulnerable.

He has 1 complete season so far for Chelsea in which he featured 23 times as a starter.

With him on the pitch Chelsea has the following record: 11 wins, 4 draws and 8 losses.
Without him 8 wins, 6 draws, 1 loss.

It's hardly fantastic numbers..

He's been near-universally acclaimed for his performances since he's arrived at Chelsea, and most of us watched him play superbly against Liverpool in a cup final about a week ago. You're probably better off just shitting on Neville rather than taking aim at Thiago.