Quaranteam Draft R1: Pat/TR vs Jim/Joga

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

vs

Team Pat Mustard / The Religion

Tactics: High line, high possession, high press.

Manuel Neuer is at this point simply the best ever goalkeeper for this tactic - God-like in any system, but he's the greatest sweeper-keeper we've seen in a high-line and high-possession system. Suurbier and Vasovic form a proven high-line partnership on the right side of our defence. Neither of them draft favourites, but Vasovic was the (self-professed) architect of the Ajax high line and Suurbier a combative and indefatigable weapon in that system. Thiago Silva is a rolls-royce centre-back in any tactic, but surely comes into his own in the high line, and Cabrini is a one man tour de force as a flank-dominating left back. There's plenty of quality on the ball spread across the defensive unit to ensure a quality transition to our midfield.

Xavi stands alone in this pool as the greatest midfielder in the draft. Partnered with the technically adroit and tactically intelligent Cambiasso, and one of the greatest 'needle players' of all in Luka Modric, we believe we've situated him within a tactical scheme and supporting cast where he will exert a decisive level of control over the match.

Brazilian legend Rivelino effectively plays as a free-role creator here from a nominal false 9 positio, from where he'll roam deep and wide to link with Xavi and Modric. Maradonas inspiration and widely regarded as one of the greatest hybrid forwards to play the game, his superlative dribbling and passing will be crucial to unlocking the opposition defence. It probably doesn't get mentioned as much as it should in drafts, but having a set-piece specialist of his calibre in the team is a huge asset. Out of possession when we're in our defensive shape, he'll be tasked with marking Pirlo.

Our cutting edge is supplied by Ballon d'Or-winning duo Stoichkov and Shevchenko. Stoichkov is possibly the best player in the pool for this goalscoring left-forward gig - aside from his supreme individual quality he has excelled for Barca playing alongside False 9 Laudrup, and for Bulgaria in a roving forward role operating across the frontline. We expect Shevchenko's positioning on the right of our attack to be a talking point, and we'd emphasise both his excellence from the right channels when he is operating from there, and the fact that he is effectively still playing as a striker - with Rivelino consistently dropping back Sheva will generally be the closest to goal of our forwards.


Team Jim Beam / Joga Bonito


THEY WERE RED, THEY WERE WHITE, THEY WERE DANISH DYNAMITE

A TRIBUTE TO DENMARK TEAM OF 80'S (UPGRADED VERSION)

Tactics: 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1; attacking, very fluid with immense amount of workrate, yet devastating going forward with quick transition and full of flair

There is something about those brilliant teams that didn't quite make it, innit? When "World of soccer" invited a group of experts to select the greatest team of all time three of the top 5 sides won nothing (Hungary 1953, Holland 1974 and Brazil 1982).
Among the very special to join that list of top 20 football side in the history was the Danish side of the 80's led by fantasy partnership of Preben Elkjaer and Michael Laudrup in the attack.

One player full of determination, aggression and explosion, the other smooth and elegant. It was a match made in heaven and one that lifted the people out of their seat. Two man couldn't be more different in their style on and off the pitch which was probably the reason why they worked so well. A perfect yin and yang combo.
While Elkjaer was sheer force of nature torturing and dragging the defenses all along the back line, Michael would kill them with his calm and more cerebral approach to the game.

WHY UPGRADED VERSION?

Keep Denmark's unpredictability, fluidity and flair in the attack while adding a defensive wall behind and extra support from fullbacks.

As much as people loved to watch that Denmark team, even today when you knew the score (like that book or movie that you have already seen, but can't put it aside), the reason why they didn't quite make it was the reason why they were so fascinating. With that Denmark you always had a feeling that they were (even 2 or 3 up) dancing on the edge of the knife. They just couldn't help themselves. This team while being devastating upfront will be much more tougher to break through given it's personnel and use of different tactics.

While Denmark used adventurous Olsen in sweeper role, this team will use calming presence of Blanc and a 4-4-2 tactics with players perfectly suited for their roles and what's been asked of them.

HOW THIS TEAM WILL FUNCTION?

Extremely fast, direct, attacking football with flair, fluidity and lots of interchanging will be kept (and in which football that front two of Elkjaer and Laudrup thrived) and in that sense it is hard to add a better winger partnership then two mesmerizing dribblers in Rob Rensenbrink and Pierre Littbarski. While being fantastic and unstoppable 1 on 1 they are also capable of hurting you through the wings or cutting centrally either by scoring or passing which is the reason why they are so perfectly suited for Elkjaer and Laudrup upfront.
The attack led by Elkjaer, Laudrup, Rensenbrink and Littbarski is pretty much unstoppable, especially if given space and if the opposition is playing the high line.

The rest of the team is pretty self-explanatory with supreme engines of Søren Lerby and N'Golo Kanté in the middle. Lerby aside from being brilliant in defence was an excellent passer of the ball.

In the end, certainly among the best back 4 in the 1st round of draft. Technically supreme and fast fullbacks on each side in Branko Zebec and Philip Lahm to provide support in both phasis of the game and such a brilliant and complementary partnership of Laurent Blanc and Paul Mcgrath in the center. The wall at the back finishes with Gianluigi Buffon, one of the GOAT in that position.

Defensive shape: Pressing and defensive movement will be organized and collective (zonal defending). The team will defend in a compact, yet aggressive 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 block closing and cutting passing options for the opponent. Out of possession and if the first wave of pressing doesn't succeed, one of Laudrup/Elkjer will provide and offer extra support to the midfield staying a bit deeper and closing opposition DM.

Conclusion: The team while being unpredictable and impossible to stop for the opposition and their back 4 (which is their weakest part), at the same time, is perfectly balanced and extremely hard to break in it's defensive shape.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@Pat_Mustard @TheReligion @Jim Beam @Joga Bonito

All the best.

Did over phone, so if I missed anything, let me know.

 

[TheReligion]

Elkjaer-Laudrup

Great partnership no doubt but Elkjaer stands out as a weak link and in this match up gets very little change in picking a physical battle with Vasovic, and his front foot aggressive style, or Thiago Silva, who was known for his pace, power and tactical awareness.

Elkjaer enjoyed playing with his back to goal however up against a high line defence with an aggressive front foot style he won't get this. He also likes to carry the ball and bustle his way through using bursts of strength and power. Again Thiago Silva's food and drink. In essence he's totally nullified here.

 

[TheReligion]

I also note the high press tactics being employed by our opponents in their defensive phase.

With a midfield containing the press resistant Xavi and Modric, along with the more than able deep lying play making abilities of Cambiasso with his superb range of passing, I simply see Kante and Lerby chasing shadows and being pulled all over the park for 90 minutes.

Possession will undoubtedly be dominated by our side with the mercurial brilliance of Rivelino able to carve openings for the likes of Stoichkov and Shevchenko (both Ballon d'Or winners I might add) to seize upon.

 

[harms]

Pat's/TR missed the trick by not going for Lobanovsky's 4-4-2/4-1-3-2, I don't think that Rivellino would be at home as a false 9.

Stoichkov - Sheva
Rivellino - Xavi - Modrić
Cambiasso
Back 4​

 

[harms]

Elkjaer-Laudrup

Great partnership no doubt but Elkjaer stands out as a weak link and in this match up gets very little change in picking a physical battle with Vasovic, and his front foot aggressive style, or Thiago Silva, who was known for his pace, power and tactical awareness.

Elkjaer enjoyed playing with his back to goal however up against a high line defence with an aggressive front foot style he won't get this. He also likes to carry the ball and bustle his way through using bursts of strength and power. Again Thiago Silva's food and drink. In essence he's totally nullified here.

So, he liked to play with his back to goal & to carry the ball forward from deeper areas? You should add runs in behind that he did so well and you'll get a complete picture of his limited skillset.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Voting for ourselves to see the score. Good luck @Pat_Mustard @TheReligion

Elkjaer-Laudrup

Great partnership no doubt but Elkjaer stands out as a weak link and in this match up gets very little change in picking a physical battle with Vasovic, and his front foot aggressive style, or Thiago Silva, who was known for his pace, power and tactical awareness.

Elkjaer enjoyed playing with his back to goal however up against a high line defence with an aggressive front foot style he won't get this. He also likes to carry the ball and bustle his way through using bursts of strength and power. Again Thiago Silva's food and drink. In essence he's totally nullified here.

Jim will be taking over but I'll just use my 3 post quota to answer few of the points raised above.

It's strange to label Elkjaer as a 'weak link' in a set-up he's going to be at home at and that too whilst reprising his renowned partnership with Laudrup, of all people.

Elkjaer wasn't a static battering ram who liked playing with his back to goal, but a proper dynamic nuisance who loved to roam and drop deep, venture into the channels and drop onto the flanks before bursting into life. Needless to say, he created pockets of space for his teammates with his irrepressible movement, dragging his markers all over the place and disrupting the defensive shape of the opposition.

Which is why Elkjaer was such a special player who shone against the stacked Serie A defenses, leading minnows Hellas Verona to their only Serie A title in 1984/85 or being the star player for the electric Danish Dynamites, winning the Bronze Ball in the '86 WC. At his peak, Elkjaer was just an immense player who was quite simply irrepressible and an absolute thorn for the defenses he played against, regardless of whether he got on the scoresheet or not. So I'm not quite seeing how he's 'totally nullified' here or how playing a high line is going to affect his pacy and dynamic gameplay negatively here. Thiago Silva is a quality defender but given Elkjaer's playing style, it's barely going to be a 1v1 battle throughout the ninety minutes against T.Silva, unless the Brazilian is on a man-marking duty against Elkjaer which would be bizarre. Vasovic was a fine defender but hardly someone who would enjoy defending against Elkjaer's dynamism and physicality, or covering for Suurbier when the Dutchman requires cover.

One of the highlights of our attacking game is obviously the sumptuous Laudrup-Elkjaer duo but we specifically drafted in Rensenbrink with Elkjaer in mind. Elkjaer loved drifting onto the flanks and dragging defenders all over the place and Rensenbrink is perfectly poised to take advantage of the ensuing chaos. Whilst Suurbier was a decent attacking wing-back, he's got too much on his plate facing Rensenbrink, let alone Rensenbrink with support from Elkjaer and Zebec*, with barely much defensive support from the flanks from Shevchenko.

* More on him from @Jim Beam

 

[Jim Beam]

Just two post and I don't know where to start.

Brazilian legend Rivelino... Out of possession when we're in our defensive shape, he'll be tasked with marking Pirlo.

Spoiler

I took a look at the team sheet during the night and wanted to suggest you that you should consider changing the tactics before the morning while you have a chance, but was too sleepy in the end to write anything. You can do it now I guess as you'll get butchered on the counter and through the flanks.

Elkjaer-Laudrup

Great partnership no doubt but Elkjaer stands out as a weak link and in this match up gets very little change in picking a physical battle with Vasovic, and his front foot aggressive style, or Thiago Silva, who was known for his pace, power and tactical awareness.

Elkjaer enjoyed playing with his back to goal however up against a high line defence with an aggressive front foot style he won't get this. He also likes to carry the ball and bustle his way through using bursts of strength and power. Again Thiago Silva's food and drink. In essence he's totally nullified here.

I love how you made both of your defenders merge into prime Nesta, Stam and Ferdinand combination. I also love how you made it all about Elkjaer when there is also Laudrup, Rensenbrink and Littbarski to attack the defensive line as soon as we get on the ball and in the transition.

But, I especially love how you made Elkjaer a weak link in what was a proven partnership surrounded with the group of quick and elite dribblers/players, especially great on the counter in a match where he will have a huge amount of space. Because that's exactly the conditions that made Elkjaer unplayable at his peak and for Denmark. I think much more elite defenders would have trouble containing him let alone Vasović for example in an open space and in a high line. He would drag your defence all over the place, disrupt the whole defensive line and that's not even counting Laudrup, Rensenbrink and Littbarski bursting into life once the counter starts.

This is just a simple example of what will happen during the match (with same happening on the other side). But, I wanted to show you a simple way of him bringing others into dangerous positions which you can't stop in any way. A simple, quick ball played to Elkjaer on the left, the channel he loved while playing for Denmark. It's not Elkjaer against Silva or Vasović anymore is it?

​

We often use term interchangeable front 3 or front 4, but in this case it is really true and Elkjaer will allow exactly that to happen and as been said this is just a simple example with same happening on the other side. That's all without him making those famous runs behind the back two getting feed by Laudrup and the rest of the team.

Now I know Elkjaer is someone who is rated highly by some, while not so highly by others. Because of his style of play I always loved him, but after watching him more these days I rate him even higher.
Even if you are among those who don't rate him as an elite striker I have some numbers for you. In his peak and by the time the World Cup in Mexico ended Preben Elkjaer (mostly in partnership with Laudrup) scored 37 goals in 60 matches or 0,61 goal per game. That is higher goal per game ratio then Van Basten (even if you take away last 2 years of Van Basten), Lewandowski, Law, Suarez, Shevchenko, Stoichkov, etc... Now, am not saying he is good as or better then Van Basten, am just showing how good and prolific he was for Denmark and if given the space or in the conditions similar to this one. And again am not counting the benefits that others have with his style of play as shown above.

I also note the high press tactics being employed by our opponents in their defensive phase.

With a midfield containing the press resistant Xavi and Modric, along with the more than able deep lying play making abilities of Cambiasso with his superb range of passing, I simply see Kante and Lerby chasing shadows and being pulled all over the park for 90 minutes.

Possession will undoubtedly be dominated by our side with the mercurial brilliance of Rivelino able to carve openings for the likes of Stoichkov and Shevchenko (both Ballon d'Or winners I might add) to seize upon.

I never mentioned high press tactic. This is what's been written.

Pressing and defensive movement will be organized and collective (zonal defending). The team will defend in a compact, yet aggressive 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 block closing and cutting passing options for the opponent.

The word press doesn't mean just high press. Atletico uses press as well, but it is compact, zonal and aggressive. We will not be closed in a shell here and we will try to get on every second ball once it's lost (I bet many of them we will get considering the type of players we have), but if the first press or tackles don't succeed the team will go down in a compact, yet aggressive shape with zonal defending waiting for a counter.

As for the tactics, I don't think that Rivelino would be great as false 9 at all, but another thing where you got it wrong against this team is that in possession you will often form a diamond in the center and be more narrow (as seen on the team sheet). To make this tactic work you will need to have a great attacking contribution from your fullbacks. Not only they need to get through Zebec/Rensenbrink and Littbarski/Lahm zones, but more importantly once they go forward it is an open day on the counter. I really think this is a bad match up for you and your tactics.

Mind you, I would consider Suurbier as a weak link in a different set up against Rensenbrink/Zebec flank and we would plan to exploit him certainly, but this way it makes it even easier and I can see your left flank also having big difficulties (and your two CB while we at it in a domino effect). In short, I can see you struggling each time you lose possession and we go in a quick transition and on the counter. And you will lose possession with the personnel we have more then enough time for us to win the game.

​

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Understand the theme, but feel J&J is better lined up as 4231. Better use of Laudrup imo.

 

[TheReligion]

So, he liked to play with his back to goal & to carry the ball forward from deeper areas? You should add runs in behind that he did so well and you'll get a complete picture of his limited skillset.

The point I'm making is fair even if you've misinterpreted it. Elkjaer was a physical player who had strength in having his back to goal and using power to burst through the lines.

To suggest that this is going to cause Vasovic and Thiago Silva difficulties, when both are known for their positional play, strength, front foot defending and in the case of Silva especially, pace, is odd. They are well suited to dealing with his skill set and keeping him quiet.

 

[TheReligion]

Pat's/TR missed the trick by not going for Lobanovsky's 4-4-2/4-1-3-2, I don't think that Rivellino would be at home as a false 9.

Stoichkov - Sheva
Rivellino - Xavi - Modrić
Cambiasso
Back 4​

As stated by Pat;

"Brazilian legend Rivelino effectively plays as a free-role creator here from a nominal false 9 position, from where he'll roam deep and wide to link with Xavi and Modric"

 

[Himannv]

2 lovely teams where one is set up to be great on the ball and the other set up to be great off it. I have to say I just about prefer the Pat Religion/The Mustard team - the main question mark is around whether Rivellino can play as a false 9. If it's a free role, I'm guessing it will function more like a diamond than anything else.

 

[TheReligion]

I can't respond to the big posts from @Joga Bonito and @Jim Beam yet properly (@Pat_Mustard might if he gets on but I'm out).

What I will say though is despite the obvious talent of Elkjaer, Littbarski and Rensenbrink they were not world beaters. I appreciate this may be subjective but only Laudrup in that group was of true world class status.

Compare this to Stoichkov (Ballon d'Or), Shevchenko (Ballon d'Or) and the legendary Rivelino and you can see the clear difference in pedigree. And that's not even mentioning Xavi and Modric!

 

[Enigma_87]

I can't respond to the big posts from @Joga Bonito and @Jim Beam yet properly (@Pat_Mustard might if he gets on but I'm out).

What I will say though is despite the obvious talent of Elkjaer, Littbarski and Rensenbrink they were not world beaters. I appreciate this may be subjective but only Laudrup in that group was of true world class status.

Compare this to Stoichkov (Ballon d'Or), Shevchenko (Ballon d'Or) and the legendary Rivelino and you can see the clear difference in pedigree. And that's not even mentioning Xavi and Modric!

Rensenbrink surely was. 2 excellent to great WC performances in the mid/late 70's, 2nd and third in Ballon D'or rankings, won Onze d'Or and two times Onze de Bronze. Proven himself at European stage during the period and winning against the likes of Bayern and Liverpool despite playing for inferior Anderlecht side.

At the time the Belgian league was also very strong and clubs like Brugge were EC finalists, won UEFA cup, whilst Liege and Anderlecht were winning CWC.

Rensenbrink to me is borderline top 5 all time left winger/LWF so that definitely makes him a world beater in my book.

 

[Enigma_87]

@TheReligion love Rivellino to bits as pretty much everyone knows around here, but false 9 he is not. Can you elaborate a bit more on how he'd play and which zones he'd operate into?

I read the description but the false 9 position I associate with Messi/Cruyff type of F9 and you can be free-role creator from pretty much any attacking position on the pitch.

 

[harms]

The point I'm making is fair even if you've misinterpreted it. Elkjaer was a physical player who had strength in having his back to goal and using power to burst through the lines.

To suggest that this is going to cause Vasovic and Thiago Silva difficulties, when both are known for their positional play, strength, front foot defending and in the case of Silva especially, pace, is odd. They are well suited to dealing with his skill set and keeping him quiet.

Elkjær at his peak was an absolute menace — power & aggressiveness coupled with brilliant movement, he roamed all across the front line, exposing different weaknesses of different defenders. He had caused difficulties to much better defenders than Vasovic and Thiago Silva & to better defensive units than yours (most notable Juve/Italy backline of the 80's, both for Denmark and for Hellas Verona) — I don't think that I've seen another player that constantly head an upper hand in matches against Scirea, for example.

Also, your argument itself doesn't work. Van Basten was good in the air but also often scored after one-twos or dribbling runs from deeper areas. Considering that Vasovic and Thiago Silva were known for their positional play, strength and pace, does it mean that suggesting that van Basten could cause issues to your defense is odd as well? And no, I'm not saying that Elkjær was as good as van Basten — but the latter was probably the only striker from the 80's who had a significantly better 3-year peak though.

 

[harms]

As stated by Pat;

"Brazilian legend Rivelino effectively plays as a free-role creator here from a nominal false 9 position, from where he'll roam deep and wide to link with Xavi and Modric"

Which is not the same as my suggested formation. Breitner in Rivellino's place would've been even better if we were talking about using Lobanovsky's formation, but that's not a point for that game though, as you clearly didn't try to do that.

 

[harms]

What I will say though is despite the obvious talent of Elkjaer, Littbarski and Rensenbrink they were not world beaters. I appreciate this may be subjective but only Laudrup in that group was of true world class status.

Rensenbrink — twice in World Cup's Team of the Tournament, few centimetres away from becoming top scorer and best player of the 1978 one.
2nd place in 1976 Ballon d'Or vote, marginally below Beckenbauer, whose Bayern he pretty much single-handedly annihilated in the European Super Cup (2 goals and 2 assists if I remember correctly). 3rd place in 1978 Ballon d'Or vote. All-Time top scorer in CWC.

Elkjær — Ballon d'Or — 3nd in 1984, 2rd in 1985 and 4th in 1986; outstanding record for Denmark & insane 1984/85 season at Serie A where he had led Hellas Verona to the title against European Cup winning Juventus with world-class player in pretty much every position.

Not true world class status Littbarski has slightly lesser individual credentials, but he was also undoubtedly world-class at his peak — although probably not quite in contention for the best player in Europe status like Rensenbrink & Elkjær were.

 

[harms]

Voted for J-boys, it’s really close but to me Rivellino isn’t mobile enough to play as a false 9. With a different set up Pat/Religion could’ve even beaten their opponent, which is some praise as I thought that J/J had the best team after the drafting ended.

 

[General_Elegancia]

I rate Rob as one of the best players in the darkest football eras(late70s post Cryuff and Kaiser).He reminds me a bit of Messi in term of dribbling and agility.

Preben Elkjaer was a world-class player for sure.In his peak he was an important-piece of Verona historial84/85 season against Platini's Juve,Maradona's Napoli and Rummenigge's Inter
after that he continued his success in WC1986 by winning Bronze Ball although his team was not in quater-finals and that can showed a lot of his qualities.

Litty too,he was a world class for sure although in his club career he was not success as he could be but in National Team he showed his brilliantly for sure.Oh....he played in 3consecutive WC Finals too.IMO he should won 1982 best young players although Manuel showed a great performances he was not better than Litty in that tournament.

Three of them are world-classes for sure but Mr.Pat team has some all-time best players.

Oh....and Elkjaer was one of the few persons in this planet that gave Scirea in deep-troubles.

 

[Jim Beam]

What I will say though is despite the obvious talent of Elkjaer, Littbarski and Rensenbrink they were not world beaters. I appreciate this may be subjective but only Laudrup in that group was of true world class status.

I must correct you here, we are playing 20 - 22 year version of Laudrup in there, so not sure if you would put him in that group knowing that.

I certainly would (same as Elkjaer, Rensenbrink, Kante, Lahm, Mcgrath, Zebec...) am just saying you maybe wouldn't based on your subjective criteria. It is definitely among my favorite teams drafted here, but then again it is all dependent on how you look at your players and most of all collective that you get in the end. As a team and in terms of tactics it's clean as a baby bottom (I think that's the expression) and I can see them gel brilliantly together.

My subjective thinking is also that they are better as a team then yours, the defense is a clear level above at least with Blanc and Mcgrath (shades of another complementary partnership in which Blanc operated), the flanks supported with Zebec and Lahm are absolute killer while midfield has both great level of combativeness along with being complementary to the rest of the group. Most of all, the team is suited for those two upfront who weren't for no reason so highly regarded and feared in their years together and worked to brilliant effect. I think it has such amount of flair, directness and trickery that it would produce devastating result going forward (a mix of that Denmark team or best Ferguson ones in terms of fast transition).

Your team is highly vulnerable in fullbacks position based on Rivelino role and how I see him functioning in that false 9 role and I see your CB also struggling as mentioned before. See, that's the problem with just putting individual names out of the team. A player of less caliber, but more fitting for operating in a false 9 role or linking the team upfront would lift the collective, so for me there is a flaw in just naming individual quality. Each to their own of course, but am sure that our team would cause multiple problems for you going forward with such amount of space.

 

[Gio]

Going to buck the trend a little and say I like the use of Rivelino here. Partly because I reckon he'll more of a classic 10 than a centre-forward. But in that space he certainly has the supreme ball control and pinpoint accurate use to be able to take the ball in, shimmy some pace, then release Stoickhko/Shevchenko or go direct. And given one of his weaknesses is hanging onto the ball too long, that's not such a problem when you receive it either with your back to goal or on the half-turn (in areas where you can shoot). The purpose of the back-to-goal role can be to keep the ball to provide the breathing space for others to join you or make runs. Plus with the control and higher territory that Xavi and Modric will likely establish, his long shooting is a potentially effective threat against a packed defence on the edge of its box.

Understand the theme, but feel J&J is better lined up as 4231. Better use of Laudrup imo.

In practice it feels like this is a 4231 and Pat's is a 41212, but perhaps there's stigma (boring old 4231) and fit (omg Xavi not in a 433) reasons behind that. Same for Harms' 424 (4231).

I can't respond to the big posts from @Joga Bonito and @Jim Beam yet properly (@Pat_Mustard might if he gets on but I'm out).

What I will say though is despite the obvious talent of Elkjaer, Littbarski and Rensenbrink they were not world beaters. I appreciate this may be subjective but only Laudrup in that group was of true world class status.

Compare this to Stoichkov (Ballon d'Or), Shevchenko (Ballon d'Or) and the legendary Rivelino and you can see the clear difference in pedigree. And that's not even mentioning Xavi and Modric!

I think that's harsh. I rate Rensenbrink closer to best of all time in his position than any other players you mention (aside from Xavi of course).

 

[Jim Beam]

I will just post Synco brilliant post about Zebec here, most because of it's quality, but especially because some of the work has been done to explore his research... Pat will probably role his eyes seeing Zebec again.

Who was Branko Zebec as a player?

@harms likes to quip that the era of legendary footballers who could do virtually everything on a world class level curiously ended with the advent of full game footage. Branko Zebec is certainly a player with such a reputation:

A highly versatile player noted for his physical abilities and understanding of the game, Zebec was world-class whether on the left wing or in the more defensive role of left fullback, although he was capable of playing almost every outfield position on the pitch. He was particularly well known for his pace, having been able to run 100 meters in 11 seconds with football boots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Zebec

After all that, he was transformed into a CB (but he also continued to play as winger/attacker, wing half and full-back) and he was very good on that position. During the one of the most important games for the national team (qualifications for World Cup 1958), in which Yugoslavia played against Romania he played as CB. Many claim that this was his best game for national team at that position. Every high ball was his (very superior in the air), he won every 1 on 1 play against opposite attacker, also during the game he was in every place in the defense. In one word: Perfection! One of the coaches came to him after the game, grab his shoulder and said: "Are you a man or are you a beast? I've never seen anybody playing the whole 90 minutes so perfect and without any mistake!"

https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8867&start=40

It's often unclear how much of such accolades are historical reality, and how much are myths - no full game footage exists to help out -, so I decided to gather all the bits and pieces I could find on the web to see if a realistic profile of Zebec, the player, emerges. Luckily there was more material than I expected, and I decided to concentrate on the footage prior to the 1958 World Cup. The result is this video, the clips being in chronological order:



In addition, a quote from Günter Netzer on facing Zebec, who played as a sweeper in the first half of the 60s for his last club, Alemannia Aachen :

There, he played a type of libero that drove us young Gladbachers into desperation" remembers Netzer, "We were caught offside a hundred times, because already as a player he was that kind of strategist.

The last part of the quote of course refers to Zebec's hugely successful (but also tragic) career as a coach in Germany. The details of his life and career can be found on his wikipedia page and other places, I want to concentrate on Zebec the player.

Going through available footage (not all included in the video) and credible reports, a profile emerges. I see the following traits as pretty much confirmed:

• positional versatility - footage and reports show him playing in multiple positions - left wing, inside left, and sweeper are dead-on confirmed. He can also be seen man-marking Di Stéfano in at least one game, as early as 1955, perhaps from a halfback position. In offense he moves around and pops up in LW, AM, CF positions. I didn't determine whether he can be seen playing left fullback (the WM system position), but it seems entirely plausible.
• ambidexterity - Zebec can be seen crossing, shooting, handling the ball with both feet at an equal level.
• extraordinary pace - some clips confirm the reports of his acceleration and top speed; Zebec could burn defenders for pace even when carrying the ball.
• technique - despite being excellent in that area, I wouldn't describe him as the most technical player in his teams (the #10s usually are) - but he wasn't far away either. He had a broad skillset, including a strong shooting technique and could improvise in quite spectacular ways (flick & shot vs Brazil, for example). His ball control at speed seems remarkable, even if he struggles for balance in one clip.
• heading prowess - reels and stills show him going for high balls in offense and defense frequently, and with a considerable leap. He scored two with his head in the games covered here, plus numerous other attempts. Often he pops up in a CF position, while a fellow forward delivers the cross.
• workrate - while attacking players (including Zebec) seem to have had limited defensive duties in the 50s, he shows grit and aggressiveness in the few scenes where he presses high. In attack he's never shy to throw himself into duels. Quite a menace to play against, I'd say.
• mentality and leadership - reports describe him as determined and serious about the sport. He led the Yugoslav team to the 1958 World Cup as their captain.
• physicality and agility - he comes across as a lean, yet muscular player. He does look strong in duels, but at the same time agile and with very good body coordination.
• football intelligence - the Netzer quote confirms Zebec's image as a defensive strategist in his later years. After his playing days, companions praised him as an exceptional coach, although difficult in his man management, and increasingly hampered by his alcoholism. His football intelligence clearly went along with his well-documented high general intelligence.

Both the Yugoslav national team and 1950s Partizan come across as exciting sides, full of technical attacking players, a collective approach to the game, positional interchanges, fluid passing, and a hunger for goals. It's probably no coincidence that Zebec seems to have been a multi-talented total footballer indeed, and perhaps this is true for other players of that era as well.

So maybe the elders who saw them play were right all along?

So, our managers crew tried to expand the research (more to follow...)

 

[Gio]

Sorry, why the feck is Xavi in the pool?

 

[Jim Beam]

Who was Branko Zebec as a player pt. 2. (Javier Zanetti of the 50's?)​

Branko Zebec was first and foremost a player who had immense physical ability. The story about him being able to run 100 meters in 11 seconds with his boots on is well documented, but what isn't documented is that he has been able to put such intensity throughout 90 minutes. He basically owned the left flank under his peak which paired with his great technical ability made him an absolute horror to play against.

There was a story in Croatian documentary (confirmed by my source later on) about Hajduk Split – Partizan Belgrade match in 1958' in which Miloš Milutinović, Partizan forward, scored and broke his foot in the first 10 minutes. Since there was no right to substitute in the league at the time, Partizan played the rest of the match with 10 players. Branko Zebec played in the defence at the time and practically hold their whole defence often charging from the left to relieve the pressure. Now am not particularly fond about historic and mythical stories about past players with supernatural powers who were unbeatable because that's how they always turned out, but it is another example of Zebec extreme phisical capabilities as well as his adaptability to play all over the pitch.


What this part will try to found out more is the questioned left unanswered in Synco last post and that is where exactly Zebec played and thrived as a player, as well as trying to discover even more about him.

Branko Zebec burst onto the scene (yes Roy, he burst) or became famous as a left winger in a position where Czibor played. That's where he played in the Olympic final against Hungary in 1952, against the Rest of the World in 1953 and against Brazil in World Cup 1954 and he played most of that position during his first years in Partizan Belgrade.

What is important to say here is that both Partizan and Yugoslavia at the time were highly technical teams with lots of fluidity, so parts where you see Zebec in Synco video operating as a CF or AM is him interchanging position, mostly with Stjepan Bobek who generally played there both for Yugoslavia and Partizan at the time. Stjepan Bobek (and again Synco is absolutely right) was considered as the most technical player in the Yugoslavian team along with Bajdo Vukas who played in Hajduk Split. However, what neither of those two had and Branko Zebec did was blend of high technical ability along with such speed, phyisical strength and agressivity.

It is also a testament of Yugoslavia strength at the time. Just for example, in that Olympic final in 1952' in Helsinki and against "the Golden team" of Hungary, after Vladimir Beara drove Hungarian players crazy and saved pretty much everything including Puskas penalty in 36' minute, there was a period after the start of 2nd half where Yugoslavia were clearly on top and had a few chances to take the lead. In the end, Hungary managed to break through in 70' minute through Puskas and were deserving winners, but Yugoslavia were very much in that game exchanging blow for blow with clearly the best football team on planet.

https://www.11v11.com/matches/hungary-v-yugoslavia-02-august-1952-226107/


So, what about Branko Zebec as a leftback where many sites put as his main position? In fact, in every Yugoslavian/Croatian/Serbian national sites you will find Zebec operating as a leftback in an all time Yugoslavia 11.

Well, the only way to find out was to ask someone who watched him….

Source: yeah, Zebec was a great player, among the best ever in the world at the time and in Yugoslavia history. Extremely fast and dangerous player who played mostly as winger in his younger days and I remember him playing there. At the time the positions weren't so fixed though. When it comes to Zebec, people often said that he was so physically ready and so fast that the whole left side was his. He was also a kind of player who loved to come to the ball very deep and then carried it all the way to the attack. That along with his sense of responsibility when it comes to defensive duties as he tracked back a lot made him a very unique player capable of both attacking and defending in equally good way. Jesus, where did you even found this footage?

- Will tell you later, concentrate... Did he play at the back and as a leftback?
Source: yes, in that Hajduk Split game from 1958 that I watched, but also during various stages of his career and I remember him playing at the back especially later after his mid 20's. He was known to play there if someone from defence was missing or if there was a dangerous forward on the other side who needed special attention. Even in such cases he would often surge forward either through center or his favorite left side if the space would open up. He was really rare in that sense and I don't know any other player from Yugoslavia who demonstrated such offensive and defensive capabilites in one package. He left for Germany after Partizan and I think he played only as a defender there, but am not sure as I didn't watch him in Germany.

- Who would you compare him in today's game?
Source: Pfff, I don't know really. Someone who would be able to hurt you both offensively and defensively. Capable of running through brick wall with incredible stamina and energy.

- Like a tractor?
Source: What?

- Like a Tractor?
Source: Haha, yeah, like a tractor…

- Anything else you would like to say?
Source: Leave me alone now to watch the news.

Spoiler

Source: grandpa Beam watching Synco video about Zebec

 

[Jim Beam]

Going to buck the trend a little and say I like the use of Rivelino here. Partly because I reckon he'll more of a classic 10 than a centre-forward. But in that space he certainly has the supreme ball control and pinpoint accurate use to be able to take the ball in, shimmy some pace, then release Stoickhko/Shevchenko or go direct. And given one of his weaknesses is hanging onto the ball too long, that's not such a problem when you receive it either with your back to goal or on the half-turn (in areas where you can shoot). The purpose of the back-to-goal role can be to keep the ball to provide the breathing space for others to join you or make runs. Plus with the control and higher territory that Xavi and Modric will likely establish, his long shooting is a potentially effective threat against a packed defence on the edge of its box.

Aside from not agreeing that Rivelino would be great as a false 9 at all, especially as he will act more as a pure number 10 making them too narrow (as mentioned before). As a consequence of that, their fullbacks will have to give a significant attacking contribution if you want to have a control of the game. Which is a big problem considering our flanks and our counter attacking ability.
Someone else who would act both as a great link upfront while at the same time being able to occupy our CB's spreading Sheva and Stoichkov a bit wider would be much different story (more mobile nine and half or deep-lying forward type). Which is why we consider to block a certain French player in the last round.

But, not to beat the same drum will leave it here for now.

 

[TheReligion]

My subjective thinking is also that they are better as a team then yours, the defense is a clear level above at least with Blanc and Mcgrath (shades of another complementary partnership in which Blanc operated), the flanks supported with Zebec and Lahm are absolute killer while midfield has both great level of combativeness along with being complementary to the rest of the group. Most of all, the team is suited for those two upfront who weren't for no reason so highly regarded and feared in their years together and worked to brilliant effect. I think it has such amount of flair, directness and trickery that it would produce devastating result going forward (a mix of that Denmark team or best Ferguson ones in terms of fast transition).

Is this superior defence led by Blanc? The same Laurent Blanc that conceded 7 goals in 8 games against Shevchenko including a 6-0 spanking whilst at Inter?

 

[Jim Beam]

Is this superior defence led by Blanc? The same Laurent Blanc that conceded 7 goals in 8 games against Shevchenko including a 6-0 spanking whilst at Inter?

See, that's the exact problem that we have. You see it through the individual battles I look at it as CB partnership or the whole back 4.

And Blanc - McGrath is for me clearly level above yours in terms of how complementary they are (which is why I put that they have shades of another brilliant and world class partnership in which Blanc was part off). And then I add Zebec and Lahm on each side of them.

For me, it is clearly level above. And Rivelino with his slowing down of the game doesn't help your attacking case.

I can also bang about Suurbier on the other side which is not only the weakest link on the pitch, but more importantly such an important cog for your team to properly function (for the reasons already explained). And looking at how both teams are set up, he is about to have a horrid time.

 

[TheReligion]

I think the trio of @harms @Joga Bonito and @Jim Beam have done well here to deflect away from the key battles in this game (I'm sure Harms is player manager for them here too )

Xavi is arguably the best player on the pitch with Modric the perfect partner is a possession based side. It's okay talking about how you can hurt the opposition but in order to do that you have to have the ball for significant periods of time and I certainly don't see how the midfield battle is won by anyone other than us when you look at the teams.

As @Gio points out Rivelino has the skillset to operate effectively in that area of the pitch and it is clear from the tactics that he is in a free role which allows him to drift deep and wide to link up play. His ball carry skills alone will move players out of position allowing Stoichkov and Shevchenko to exploit gaps effortlessly.

* Our team controls possession and dictates play.

* Our team controls territory with Cambiasso ready to clean up any attempts to counter.

* The supreme creativity of Rivelino, Xavi and Modric multiple chances for our two Ballon d'Or winning forwards to gobble up.

Alot has been said about Elkjaer and co but do we really see their team shutting us out? I certainly don't. What I do see is them being under significant amounts of pressure for prolonged periods of the game and with the firepower at our disposal and the mercurial brilliance of Rivelino on the pitch goals will most definitely come.

 

[harms]

Sorry, why the feck is Xavi in the pool?

It’s Edgar’s draft.

 

[TheReligion]

See, that's the exact problem that we have. You see it through the individual battles I look at it as CB partnership or the whole back 4.

And Blanc - McGrath is for me clearly level above yours in terms of how complementary they are (which is why I put that they have shades of another brilliant and world class partnership in which Blanc was part off). And then I add Zebec and Lahm on each side of them.

For me, it is clearly level above. And Rivelino with his slowing down of the game doesn't help your attacking case.

I can also bang about Suurbier on the other side which is not only the weakest link on the pitch, but more importantly such an important cog for your team to properly function (for the reasons already explained). And looking at how both teams are set up, he is about to have a horrid time.

No I appreciate your emphasis on the team set up whilst I am pointing at individual class however I'm confident all the pieces on display gel together nicely as part of our system.

I know McGrath is highly rated on here but it seems to me you are understandably playing down the quality of Vasovic and Silva who fit our system perfectly, especially with Neuer sweeping in behind.

 

[Jim Beam]

I know McGrath is highly rated on here but it seems to me you are understandably playing down the quality of Vasovic and Silva who fit our system perfectly, especially with Neuer sweeping in behind.

I find that part a bit ironic after your judgement about individual quality of our players.

And yes, Neuer will have to sweep a lot for sure.

I think the trio of @harms @Joga Bonito and @Jim Beam have done well here to deflect away from the key battles in this game (I'm sure Harms is player manager for them here too )

This was also unnecessary, but to each his own as I said.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Bloodbath of a match thread .

Very little time here but Gio nailed our rationale for Rivelino in this role and typically articulated better than I could.

Sorry, why the feck is Xavi in the pool?

He clearly should have been on the block list but as usual I feel he's not getting the credit he deserves. Jim and Joga are a menace on the counter, and I rate Rensenbrink in particular exceptionally highly, but the level of control Xavi provides (alongside fellow technical virtuosos of Modric and Rivelino's class) is a huge advantage for us. There's clearly no shortage of cutting edge either, with Shevchenko the outstanding goalscorer on the pitch and Stoichkov right up there amongst the best of the rest.

It goes without saying that Suurbier wouldn't have been our first choice for the right back position, but he's a decent fit albeit our weakest link. Cabrini on the other hand I don't see as a weakness at all.

 

[Jim Beam]

Bloodbath of a match thread .

I've had worse. Say hello to my grandpa at least.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If someone is looking for a Alves alternate, then Suurbier should be on top of the list!

 

[TheReligion]

Pat is spot on about Xavi seemingly being ignored here. Quite baffling considering he's literally running the game..


This is a back to back four time world best playmaker and Ballon d'Or dream team member.

The puppet master is either being ignored or ridiculously underrated given the side is set up for him to thrive next to the genius of Modric.

 

[harms]

By the way, Breitner actually played some games on the right during his peak as a fullback, even though playing footballers out of their nominal position rarely ends well in our drafts.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Pat's/TR missed the trick by not going for Lobanovsky's 4-4-2/4-1-3-2, I don't think that Rivellino would be at home as a false 9.

Stoichkov - Sheva
Rivellino - Xavi - Modrić
Cambiasso
Back 4​

Great shout!
Rivellino as a false 9 looked really odd to me but after seeing your post here and I think you hit on the best tactic they could have used

 

[Enigma_87]

Great shout!
Rivellino as a false 9 looked really odd to me but after seeing your post here and I think you hit on the best tactic they could have used

If we take harms suggestion Breitner will slot right in that instead of Modric and to me would be a better choice.

 

[TheReligion]

Great shout!
Rivellino as a false 9 looked really odd to me but after seeing your post here and I think you hit on the best tactic they could have used

I'm not sure why people are getting stuck on this aspect given the role Rivelino has and the position of Stoichkov who is highlighted and arrowed on the graphic.. The system is quite fluid and at times will no doubt look as described with a front two and Rivelino in wider areas.