Reality-Monopoly Draft - FINALS: harms vs 2mufc0

With players at peak, who will win this match?


  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,430
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
vs

............................ TEAM HARMS ................................................................................ TEAM 2MUFC0 ........................................



Team harms

Building a perfect 4-4-2 is a must for every drafter. The supposed simplicity of that formation highlights every little imperfection, and it becomes an incredibly entertaining challenge to get rid of all of them.

Francesco Toldo - Complete GK: pretty much the perfect modern goalkeeper, consistent with cat-like reflexes, also great with his feet due to playing outfield during the youth
Nilton Santos - Balanced FB: Tall, powerfully built, elegant and versatile, he was usually cool under pressure, turned quickly for such a big man, tackled firmly and was always ready to surge forward and make use of his strong left foot. In 1998 he was chosen as a left back for world team of the 20th century — enough said.
Paul McGrath - Complete CB: McGrath was one of those unique centre-backs whom you just didn't know how to classify. He was athletic, monstrous in the air and someone who relished the physical battle with the hustling centre-forwards, but his reading of the game was top notch, always putting out fires and his positioning impeccable - an immense blend of qualities from your archetypal ball playing centre-back and stopper. He was technically gifted and a really cultured player on the ball - esp his one-touch passes and keeping the play ticking - frequently playing as a DM for United and for Ireland in the Euros and the WC but he wasn't exactly overly domineering on the ball and tried his best to keep it simple.
John Charles - Physical CB: Before watching closely some of his games I was a bit suspicious of his "World class CF and CB" description. Now I don't — what I've seen was not a Shearer-esque brute, but a very intelligent player with great positioning, agility and reading of the game — paired, of course, with his gigant-ish stature and aerial dominance
Manfred Kaltz - Attacking right back: Very few right backs in history can rival Kaltz' offensive contribution, and probably none were as good as him at crossing in particular. He is well covered by Mcgrath and Deschamps, so he is free to express himself anyway he wants. Also reunited with Kevin Keegan, with whom they formed a fantastic unit in the late 70's.
Ryan Giggs - Rampaging LW: we all remember young Giggs - incredible pace and dribbling ability, one of those players that constantly kept you on the edge of your seat
Bryan Robson - Attacking B2B: one of the most complete midfielders of his time, he combined great technique and goalscoring with tactical intelligence and never-say-die attitude on and off the pitch. Captain. Joga has made some more compilations of him in the last few days, make sure to check them out if you have time, it's a pure pleasure for any United fan.
Didier Deschamps - Defensive midfielder: Watercarrier par excellence, a mainstay in Juventus midfield when they were probably the best team in the world and the captain and leader of an all-time great French defence that saw them winning 1998 World Cup and 2000 European Championship. He'll play his natural role of a midfield engine, plus he has an excellent experience of playing with another dominant box-to-box in Vieira, so they should do well with Robson.
Luis Figo - Playmaking RW: less incisive, more creative, Figo occupies his preferred right wing in a role that saw him winning Ballon D'Or and WPOTY when the likes of Ronaldo, Zidane were around.
Luigi Riva - Target striker: Italy's all-time top scorer, a battering ram with added dribbling and creativity. Make sure to check out the compilations I've made of his games that will be posted at the bottom. Fantastic player to watch and one of the best choices ever for this particular formation. Ballon D'Or shortlists in 1969 and 1970:

Kegin Keegan - Free-roaming forward: The more I watch him, the more I like with him (it helps that I mostly watch Hamburg games and not the scouser's). His workrate is really extensive, he is running like a young Rooney, helping out fullbacks, taking the ball from the keeper — and still finds time to end up at the end of a cross or to lure a defender to earn a penalty. Say what you want about the competition, the man won 2 Ballon D'Ors and finished runner up once, all in the space of three years. Plus the amount of penalties he has won after his trademark runs, and his surprising aerial prowess — he was one of those midgets with monstrous leap and positioning. Ballon D'Or shortlists 1977-1979 (take notice of Kaltz's inclusion in 1979):


Bench: Gianluigi Donnarumma, Thomas Müller, Dani Carvajal, Rafa Marquez, Diego Forlan, Joshua Kimmich


Tactical notes

Hard to find anything wrong with 2mufc team, at least if he'll line up like I predict. With that midfield he will naturally have the control of the game, which I'll gladly give him — my team is absolutely deadly on the counter. More so, I believe that my team have an upper hand mentally, and in terms of workrate (especially when we're comparing Riva/Keegan to Ruud). Jairzinho is quite different from most of the wingers, as he combines excellent tecnhique with a big and strong body. He is facing the best fullback on the pitch, but if the intelligence of Santos doesn't prevail all the time, Jairzinho will have to bit Charles - not only a fantastic player, but also an absolutely rock from the physical aspect. Ruud would be the main threat here and I actually expect McGrath to deal with him most of the time.
Workrate from the wings and up front will help my two midfielders. Even if it was 2 against 11, I wouldn't bet on them losing, but with the whole team moving intact, I don't think that numeric advantage in midfield would matter much.


Video footage

1. You've all seen what I uploaded, so a bit of new footage from the brilliant @Joga Bonito, which is especially appropriate since they are playing against some fantasy team including Maradona, Platini, Elkjaer etc.
Paul McGrath against the World XI (make sure not to miss the appreciation thread)
Bryan Robson against the World XI

2. Manfred Kaltz + Kevin Keegan. A dynamite partnership — with Keegan's incredible mobility he often appeared next to Kaltz, proving his with a passing option — or found himself on the end of his crossing due to his immense leap and positioning.
I wanted to make a series, but was too busy. So you'll have to stuck with this:

In Kaltz own compilation from the game that Hamburg destroyed Real Madrid in CL semi-final, you can see how often Keegan #7 pops around. There is also a game when they dovetailed really well together, but I didn't have time to make a compilation, you can check the game's highlights on youtube, it's worth it.

3. Luigi Riva. Most probably know enough of him to judge him fairly — Italy's all-time goalscorer, his unique Serie A title with Cagliari. Incredible striker, big, strong, his shooting got him a nickname "Rombo di Tuono" (Roar of Thunder); and at the same time quite cultured on the bell with great dribbling — from years that he played as a left winger. Two classic performances from 1970 World Cup (including the best goal in "The Game of the Century"):

Luigi Riva against Mexico in 1970 World Cup quarter-final. Don't let the final score fool you - it was a very close game that was pretty much decided by Riva's individual genius.

Luigi Riva against West Germany in 1970 World Cup semi-final. This game is now known as the "Game of the Century". Riva had a tough competition — Müller and Seeler to outshine, Vogts, Beckenbauer, Schulz and Schnellinger to outwit in order to win this game for Italy — and he did stood out. His performance in the second half is sublime, Italy sat back to defend their lead and he was pretty much on his own against 4 all-time great German defenders, holding up the ball and providing the focal point for Italy's long balls forward. Scored the best goal of the game too.


Good luck!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TEAM 2MUFC0

Formation 4-3-3.

Defensively I have 2 of the best central defenders of all time in Thuram and Hansen,Hansen being the ball playing defender and Thuram the stopper, both would work well together. At right back is the great Brazilian Carlos Alberto, a fantastic all round full back, world class going forward and in defense. At left back I have brought in Ruud Krol one of the best Dutch defenders of all time. In goal is the ever reliable Petr Cech, capable of making consistent game winning saves.

In front of the defence i have Redondo, a GOAT defensive/deep lying midfielder able to control the game from deep and run the show, Sir Alex once described him 'like he had magnets in his boots'. In front of him will be Falcao and Tardelli in box to box roles, these two will provide defensive solidity aswell as fantastic service for the front three. Tardelli will be the driving force in this midfield with his fantastic mentality and drive.

Upfront will be Ruud Van Nistelrooy, as we are on a United forum i shouldn't have to into detail regarding the great man, he only needs half a chance to get onto the score sheet, and in a tight game he can make the difference. He will be supported by Jairzinho and Keizer who can come centrally and combine with him or go wide and the get the crosses into him. Behind RVN he has 3 great midfielders with great passing ability to play him through on goal, whether it be from shorter through balls from Falcao and Tardelli or long balls from Redondo.

Overall i have threats through the middle and on both flanks i have proven successful real life parings, on the left Keizer/Krol 3 time European cup winners with Ajax and the beautiful partnership of Alberto/Jairzinho which won the WC in 1970, considered as one of the best teams of all time. Defensively, all of my defenders are GOAT level and have won the biggest prizes and the same applies to the midfield which has the personnel to take hold of the game and control it for most periods. On the wings are two great wingers which will be difficult to contain for even the best defenders. And upfront the lethal RVN who will relish playing with so many high quality players around him.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
Cheers. Voted for myself, @2mufc0, good luck!
That midfield of yours is absolutely brilliant.

Can't find much wrong with my team though. Too bad that I never finished all those compilations about Keegan (and Kaltz when they played together), my opinion of him changed quite a lot. Looks way less impressive in the goal/skills highlights than in actual games, endless stamina and leadership qualities, the way he drives the whole team forward! Good thing that he had a successful spell at Hamburg and I wasn't forced to watch too much of Liverpool :lol:
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,015
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Cheers @harms good luck! You also have built a fantastic team and will be interesting to see how the neutrals see the game going.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,015
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
He doesn't get much mention anymore but its always a treat to watch Ruud in action and i grew up watching him scoring plenty of goals so have many fond memories of him, it's a shame he came in during a tough period for our club, enjoy:

 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,430
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Good teams with no obvious flaws/mismatches.

I'm not really convinced on harms midfield setup though. Deschamps neither has the passing range nor the workrate to pull that off leaving robson to do a lot of the shuttling imo. Against 2mufc's midfield it's be found lacking a bit.

As to 2mufc's team would have preferred a more well rounded forward than RvN.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
I'm not really convinced on harms midfield setup though. Deschamps neither has the passing range nor the workrate to pull that off leaving robson to do a lot of the shuttling imo. Against 2mufc's midfield it's be found lacking a bit.
Deschamps doesn't have the workrate to pull that off? Wtf? This is one of the strangest comments I've seen out here.
Regarding his passing — he was more limited than Voronin but, then again, the only thing he has to do here is to give the ball to Robson/Kaltz/Figo/Keegan, who will always be around them (and you should not underestimate Kaltz' influence as a deep-lying right-back playmaker). United faced incredible teams with Butt as one of their 4-4-2 midfielders, ffs.

You've been voting against me the whole draft though, so I'm not sure that Voronin or even Redondo would've saved the day for me :p
edit: as there are no intonations online, this was tongue in cheek. Despite you really voting against my team every or close to every time in this draft, I understand that it just didn't completely fit your idea of a 4-4-2, or you're reluctant towards the formation, no bias confrontations from my side :lol:
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
I'm not really convinced on harms midfield setup though. Deschamps neither has the passing range nor the workrate to pull that off leaving robson to do a lot of the shuttling imo

Deschamps was fantastic with Juve and France in different formations - and he'll get lots of support from all 4 wingers/forwards here in my counter-attacking set up
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,015
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
While i can understand your tactics @harms, you will be outnumbered in midfield and i don't rate Deschamps at this level esp the midfielders he is up against. While you have conceded my team will dominate possession it is a risky approach given Ruud only needs half a chance to score and he will get the opportunities.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,430
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
You've been voting against me the whole draft though, so I'm not sure that Voronin or even Redondo would've saved the day for me :p
edit: as there are no intonations online, this was tongue in cheek. Despite you really voting against my team every or close to every time in this draft, I understand that it just didn't completely fit your idea of a 4-4-2, or you're reluctant towards the formation, no bias confrontations from my side :lol:
:lol: Didn't realize that. Even in my own matches, I rarely pay attention to trends of voters. In fact the only previous vote I recall in all my draft matches is when Sajeev voted against me just because I had Given as my GK. Nothing else comes to mind.

As to a 4-4-2, I have some very specific views on that. For example in a popular Scholes-Keane midfield, I consider Scholes as the key player there. Keane is a good supporting player, but it's Scholes passing range that spring the counterattack quickly and efficiently. In your team I find that reversed with Deschamps playing a supporting role and Robson tasked with running the midfield. Nothing wrong with that per se, but imo a midfield passer like Falcao/Suarez/Scholes or even Modric would be far more suited than a Redondo/Pirlo/Deschamps type player imo. A quick long pass, a eye for a incisive through pass and you spring open the counter far more effectively than most of Keane/Robson's all round game. It's just a balance which I give priority to. That lack of a top class midfield passer made me vote against you.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
As to a 4-4-2, I have some very specific views on that. For example in a popular Scholes-Keane midfield, I consider Scholes are the key player there. Keane is a good supporting player, but it's Scholes passing range that spring the counterattack quickly and efficiently. In your team I find that reversed with Deschamps playing a supporting role and Robson tasked with running the midfield. Nothing wrong with that per se, but imo a midfield passer like Falcao/Suarez/Scholes or even Modric would be far more suited than a Redondo/Pirlo/Deschamps type player imo. A quick long pass, a eye for a incisive through pass and you spring open the counter far more effectively than most of Keane/Robson's running. It's just a balance which I give priority to.
It's interesting, since we played half of our biggest 4-4-2 games without Scholes (and with Butt, of all people, usually). I agree that Deschamps isn't ideal, but I have serious creatity upgrades at different positions (RB, RW and RF especially) to compensate for that — plus you seems to underrate Robson's on the ball ability, which was superior to Keane's.

When we're talking about the purely defensive midfielders a few can rival Deschamps, and his overblown trophy cabinet isn't a coincidence.
 

antohan

gets aroused by tagline boobs
Joined
Apr 24, 2002
Messages
42,175
Location
Montevideo
Not overly keen on the Hansen-Thuram pairing, could see Riva bullying Lilly. I do love the flanks and the rest of the spine though.

@harms is less obvious but very effective.

Could go either way really.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,430
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
It's interesting, since we played half of our biggest 4-4-2 games without Scholes (and with Butt, of all people, usually). I agree that Deschamps isn't ideal, but I have serious creatity upgrades at different positions (RB, RW and RF especially) to compensate for that — plus you seems to underrate Robson's on the ball ability, which was superior to Keane's.

When we're talking about the purely defensive midfielders a few can rival Deschamps, and his overblown trophy cabinet isn't a coincidence.
Scholes-Robson would be have been something to watch :drool:

I didn't mean to say your team was dysfunctional or anything as you were constrained by the box criteria and upgrade requirements. It's just that I'd have preferred Robson's partner to have a more dynamic passing range.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
An interesting video concerning Redondo - I have a suspicion that Keegan is not the type of player he likes to play against.

 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Should be a good match this.

Looking at the teams for harms the only issue I have is Charles at CB - I really, really don't rate him there. Know all about him, how he used to play there etc, but in an all time draft I don't rate him there at all. Saying that he's a good fit for Ruud, but his overall credentials at that position doesn't sit right with me.

Harms also took a huge hit losing Voronin as Voronin/Robbo was a mouthwatering combo. Have no problem with Deschamps in 4-4-2, but 2mufc0 has the upper hand there with that Tardell/Redondo/Falcao midfield.

Harms flanks are also great, so no issue there.

On the other side of the pitch the only issue I have is Ruud leading the line. As Edgar said I'd rather have a more rounded striker like Sheva, who was available I think in the RR. Apart from that 2mufc0 is looking great through the lines. Hansen/Thuram is complimentary pairing, has GOAT full backs and a proven Jairzinho/Carlos Alberto pairing.

At the moment I see 2mufc0 having the upper hand - especially in midfield and RvN/Jairzinho exploiting the space left by Nilton when going forward and from Charles side.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
Looking at the teams for harms the only issue I have is Charles at CB - I really, really don't rate him there. Know all about him, how he used to play there etc, but in an all time draft I don't rate him there at all. Saying that he's a good fit for Ruud, but his overall credentials at that position doesn't sit right with me.
I shared the same opinion, but after watching some of his games I changed it. But I understand
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,015
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Should be a good match this.

Looking at the teams for harms the only issue I have is Charles at CB - I really, really don't rate him there. Know all about him, how he used to play there etc, but in an all time draft I don't rate him there at all. Saying that he's a good fit for Ruud, but his overall credentials at that position doesn't sit right with me.

Harms also took a huge hit losing Voronin as Voronin/Robbo was a mouthwatering combo. Have no problem with Deschamps in 4-4-2, but 2mufc0 has the upper hand there with that Tardell/Redondo/Falcao midfield.

Harms flanks are also great, so no issue there.

On the other side of the pitch the only issue I have is Ruud leading the line. As Edgar said I'd rather have a more rounded striker like Sheva, who was available I think in the RR. Apart from that 2mufc0 is looking great through the lines. Hansen/Thuram is complimentary pairing, has GOAT full backs and a proven Jairzinho/Carlos Alberto pairing.

At the moment I see 2mufc0 having the upper hand - especially in midfield and RvN/Jairzinho exploiting the space left by Nilton when going forward and from Charles side.
I was looking for ways to get him, but couldn't figure out how. Was there a way i missed? :rolleyes:
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,015
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Also RE Ruud, i think he would do well in this setup, he led the line for us and combined well with wingers and players like Veron/Scholes/Keane etc behind him.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
especially in midfield and RvN/Jairzinho exploiting the space left by Nilton when going forward and from Charles side.
Why would Santos go forward? He'll play like he played with Brazil - rarely actually crossing the half line, mostly influencing the game with is middle-long passing. Plus he has a genuine winger on the left and Riva who sometimes naturally drops to the left channel.
Kaltz is the attacking one here, not Santos. And I'm playing in a counter-attacking system anyway.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
I shared the same opinion, but after watching some of his games I changed it. But I understand
Have you uploaded some footage in defence mate? I've read a lot about him in the past(for his rather curious Sarosi-like case in terms of versatility) and from some Juve supporters - he's one of their best strikers(if not the best one), but rarely someone raves about him defensively.
I was looking for ways to get him, but couldn't figure out how. Was there a way i missed? :rolleyes:
I caught a glimpse of the RR but think dropping Lato and picking him from the over 33 box. Think he didn't play with any of Pats.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
This is a very close game, especially with 2mufc's amazing midfield, but if we're talking about the individual influence, it's hard to look past Figo, Riva and Keegan being superior to their opponents.

Figo is, in my opinion, the best player on the pitch, granted with full freedom.

And Riva/Keegan partnership looks amazing and will make some trouble to 2mufc's fullbacks.

Giggs, Ruud, Jairzinho and Kaizer are a tier below those three, imo, although possibly with the exception of Jairzinho.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Why would Santos go forward? He'll play like he played with Brazil - rarely actually crossing the half line, mostly influencing the game with is middle-long passing. Plus he has a genuine winger on the left and Riva who sometimes naturally drops to the left channel.
Kaltz is the attacking one here, not Santos. And I'm playing in a counter-attacking system anyway.
Mainly because of the description:

tackled firmly and was always ready to surge forward and make use of his strong left foot.
Kaltz is of course more attacking but seems that the basic plan is to sit back and when in possession both full backs will surge forward?
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
Have you uploaded some footage in defence mate? I've read a lot about him in the past(for his rather curious Sarosi-like case in terms of versatility) and from some Juve supporters - he's one of their best strikers(if not the best one), but rarely someone raves about him defensively.
Nope, didn't have time for anything. There are some in games, there are some in british pathe excepts etc. I haven't seen a Baresi-esque WC final performance by him but I understood that his defensive nous, agility (surprisingly), pace and physicality allowed him to play there and excel, not only as some complimentary presence near the end of a game. He also fits in nicely against Ruud and Jairzinho - wouldn't put him against the likes of Romario or Zico, obviously.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
Mainly because of the description:
Kaltz is of course more attacking but seems that the basic plan is to sit back and when in possession both full backs will surge forward?
Sorry, that was from the Guardian's profile. In the previous rounds his role was described in the tactical notes, but I decided to delete them without updating the original profiles. He is playing his natural game, which was never too attacking - in fact he said that he envied today's fullbacks as they have so much freedom. He had tools for it but used them another way.

 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Nope, didn't have time for anything. There are some in games, there are some in british pathe excepts etc. I haven't seen a Baresi-esque WC final performance by him but I understood that his defensive nous, agility (surprisingly), pace and physicality allowed him to play there and excel, not only as some complimentary presence near the end of a game. He also fits in nicely against Ruud and Jairzinho - wouldn't put him against the likes of Romario or Zico, obviously.
Think considering the game mechanics he'll most likely come against Jairzinho, as without a designated #10 he'll attack the box more whilst Nilton will pick Carlos Alberto overlapping when 2mufc0 is on the ball and considering he'll see most of the ball, whilst McGrath will most likely keep tabs on Ruud.
Sorry, that was from the Guardian's profile. In the previous rounds his role was described in the tactical notes, but I decided to delete them without updating the original profiles. He is playing his natural game, which was never too attacking - in fact he said that he envied today's fullbacks as they have so much freedom. He had tools for it but used them another way.

Indeed. He's much more balanced than modern full backs and much more defensively solid. Used to play as a CB as well. Saying that he's perfectly capable of providing plenty of width and attacking contribution especially in modern day 4-4-2.

On a side note I think Deschamps is better option in your 4-4-2 than Varela(albeit of course inferior in terms of quality) considering his 98 WC form and how France played - obviously different personnel, but can do the watercarrier job he's tasked here rather than be the DM-drop to CB type in Varela.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,168
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
2mufc hit the jackpot with reinforcements. That is definitely one of my favorite midfield 3s in any draft so far.

Ordinarily that would be enough for me but harms tactic is really well suited to counter 2mufc and he has imo a perfectly balanced front 4 for counters.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,807
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
As to a 4-4-2, I have some very specific views on that. For example in a popular Scholes-Keane midfield, I consider Scholes as the key player there. Keane is a good supporting player, but it's Scholes passing range that spring the counterattack quickly and efficiently.
This is lunacy! Keane was clearly the main man in that Utd midfield, with Scholes frequently making way for Butt to shore things up defensively. Just look at some of his seminal performances for Ireland around 2000/2001 if you need any more proof of his credentials as a 4-4-2 kingpin, when he was partnered with Mark Kinsella or Matty Holland and drove the team to superb results against the Portugal of Figo and Rui Costa, and a Netherlands team with the likes of Stam/RVN/Kluivert/Overmars/Cocu/van Bommel/Seedorf.
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,807
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Also, an enjoyably random bit on Jairzinho from a Paul Doyle article:

The great Brazilian forward Jairzinho once told me that he was in such great shape during the 1970 World Cup that Fifa afterwards presented him with a "best body on the planet" trophy to go along with his winner's medal. I assumed this was rhetorical waggery so offered that obligatory journalistic reply: the sycophantic laugh. But he became quite cross and assured me he wasn't joking. I asked whether he was certain it was an official Fifa prize, and not awarded by some TV company or a housewives' magazine. He insisted it was indeed from the game's global federation. I've since asked Fifa about this, as well as other players and journalists who were at the tournament, but it seems only Jairzinho has any memory of it.

I'm not sure whether I want to believe Jairzinho. On one hand I don't, because then I can delight in the homely barminess of the fact that the only man in history to have scored in every match of the World Cup including the final feels the need to invent trivial boasts. It's a bit like if Neil Armstrong took every opportunity to tell the world that in 1969 he beat Buzz Aldrin in a belching contest.

On the other hand I hope Jairzinho's story is true. If he really did have a body so much more beautiful than all the other athletic ones on display that even the crusty old Fifacrats felt moved to celebrate it, then that's a lovely thing. Not having been around in those days, I can only regret that the videos I've seen of the tournament don't really bring out this singular gorgeousness.
:lol:
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,241
This is lunacy! Keane was clearly the main man in that Utd midfield, with Scholes frequently making way for Butt to shore things up defensively. Just look at some of his seminal performances for Ireland around 2000/2001 if you need any more proof of his credentials as a 4-4-2 kingpin, when he was partnered with Mark Kinsella or Matty Holland and drove the team to superb results against the Portugal of Figo and Rui Costa, and a Netherlands team with the likes of Stam/RVN/Kluivert/Overmars/Cocu/van Bommel/Seedorf.
Aye an unfair comment on Keane and Robson, as they were the ones who dictated play and everything revolved around them. Keane's passing was understated and underrated even, but he set the tone for us with his direct and accurate passing. In fact, it was absolutely crucial to the way we played, with his crisp and rapid in between the line passing being crucial to our direct play and the way we lined up. He was the playmaker and heart-beat of that side.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,648
Aye an unfair comment on Keane and Robson, as they were the ones who dictated play and everything revolved around them. Keane's passing was understated and underrated even, but he set the tone for us with his direct and accurate passing. In fact, it was absolutely crucial to the way we played, with his crisp and rapid in between the line passing being crucial to our direct play and the way we lined up. He was the playmaker and heart-beat of that side.
Indeed. I'm a big fan of Scholes, but at his peak Keane was definitely the main man in that United side.

BTW I really appreciate all your and harms work on Robson mate. Such a great player. :drool:
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,015
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
@2mufc0 Do you have any videos of Piet Kaiser?
There's a few on YouTube, but not that many good ones, this one is decent though :


There are also a lot of obituaries about him as he died recently which are interesting reads and shows how highly he was rated.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,028
Location
Moscow
The last 10 votes, literally all of them, were for @2mufc0 :lol:
Doesn't seem like I can win this — fair enough, as that midfield is a thing of beauty, yet still a bit disappointing - like any loss, I guess.

Maybe a demographic analysis from @MJJ?

@Edgar Allan Pillow doubting workrate of Deschamps will still be the highlight of the game for me :lol: Although Kocsis' aerial prowess was already questioned in this draft.
 

MJJ

New Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2009
Messages
28,954
Location
sunderland(1)-Derby(1)
The last 10 votes, literally all of them, were for @2mufc0 :lol:
Doesn't seem like I can win this — fair enough, as that midfield is a thing of beauty, yet still a bit disappointing - like any loss, I guess.

Maybe a demographic analysis from @MJJ?

@Edgar Allan Pillow doubting workrate of Deschamps will still be the highlight of the game for me :lol: Although Kocsis' aerial prowess was already questioned in this draft.
:lol: Coming right up, personally I voted for two reasons.

  1. Voronin and Muller are big losses for you
  2. Never was a fan of Charles as a center back at the highest level, even though he is a good fit for Kocsis here.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/black-sheep-draft-qf-joga-vs-redtiger-peyroteo.427387/#post-20608537
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,430
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
@Edgar Allan Pillow doubting workrate of Deschamps will still be the highlight of the game for me
:lol: Maybe workrate was the wrong word to have used (and I've clarified what I meant subsequently) as I like Deschamps and have picked him myself in drafts before. As said, I'd have preferred Keane's companion to be more attacking than more defensive than him.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,971
@2mufc0 Nice video on Keiser. Looks a tidy player. Seems from that limited footage he played more like a traditional winger than I had thought
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,430
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
This is lunacy! Keane was clearly the main man in that Utd midfield, with Scholes frequently making way for Butt to shore things up defensively. Just look at some of his seminal performances for Ireland around 2000/2001 if you need any more proof of his credentials as a 4-4-2 kingpin, when he was partnered with Mark Kinsella or Matty Holland and drove the team to superb results against the Portugal of Figo and Rui Costa, and a Netherlands team with the likes of Stam/RVN/Kluivert/Overmars/Cocu/van Bommel/Seedorf.
I'm just a big fan of the older/deeper version of Scholes paired with the prime Keane to be the most optimal fit.