Reality-Monopoly Draft - SF: 2mufc0 vs Tuppet

[2mufc0]

There is not much I got left to say here. But I do believe that his obscurity is playing a hand here, he is deployed as a B2B midfielder from his manager, I don't see how that does not have an effect on the game. He is definitely a striker/second striker for me and in my opinion, 2mufc0's tactical instruction are not going to get anywhere close to best of him.


Also Ibra-Kubala could be a great duo in theory (I don't believe they would as they are both very similar), but 2mufc0 is not playing them as such, he has clearly mentioned in his OP that Kubala is playing as B2B midfielder. His tactical instructions should have a bearing on the game.

On Di Stefano & Kubala, I think they were compared mostly because they were playing for the two big clubs in Spain and both were the talisman for their teams. Di Stefano was almost certainly more defensively solid and I wouldn't even play him as a B2B midfielder. I am not sure how we can prove something like this though.

And I also said this:

Kubala will be given more freedom to go forward to create and score, withe less emphasis on defensive duties.

While I would expect him to put some defensive work in I'm not expecting him to drop all the way back. He had great work rate and I would want him to drop back a little and help out the midfield.

 

[2mufc0]

It should also be pointed out that it appears Van Hanegem is deployed as a 10, this isn't his natural position and wouldn't be getting the best out off him. Not sure if he even played in that position?

 

[harms]

It should also be pointed out that it appears Van Hanegem is deployed as a 10, this isn't his natural position and wouldn't be getting the best out off him. Not sure if he even played in that position?

Zidane comparison is spot on - he'll be a free-roaming midfielder with a left-ish preference, like he was for Feyenoord (which was his peak, not 1974 World Cup). Deeper and more defensively solid than Zidane, but still

 

[2mufc0]

Zidane comparison is spot on - he'll be a free-roaming midfielder with a left-ish preference, like he was for Feyenoord (which was his peak, not 1974 World Cup). Deeper and more defensively solid than Zidane, but still

Fair enough I'm just looking at the European Cup final formations and he's shown as LCM . but still not a pure 10.

 

[Ecstatic]

There is not much I got left to say here. But I do believe that his obscurity is playing a hand here, he is deployed as a B2B midfielder from his manager, I don't see how that does not have an effect on the game. He is definitely a striker/second striker for me and in my opinion, 2mufc0's tactical instruction are not going to get anywhere close to best of him.


Also Ibra-Kubala could be a great duo in theory (I don't believe they would as they are both very similar), but 2mufc0 is not playing them as such, he has clearly mentioned in his OP that Kubala is playing as B2B midfielder. His tactical instructions should have a bearing on the game.

On Di Stefano & Kubala, I think they were compared mostly because they were playing for the two big clubs in Spain and both were the talisman for their teams. Di Stefano was almost certainly more defensively solid and I wouldn't even play him as a B2B midfielder. I am not sure how we can prove something like this though.

It works both ways. The tactical instruction (#10) about Van Hanegem also matters in a certain sense.

I also think that Zlatan, Van Hanegem, Kubala and Zidane are very very different from each other.


I agree that Kubala is relatively an obscure player given the lack of videos. I don't know if the video is before or after his severe injury

 

[Ecstatic]

2 brilliant teams really

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

I feel like Van Hanegem and Kubala should be swapped and both sides are improved

 

[Ecstatic]

I feel like Van Hanegem and Kubala should be swapped and both sides are improved

2mufc has Tardelli on the bench

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Two very similar teams. Only difference is one has a creative 10, the other a goal-scoring one.

@Tuppet will definitely control the game via Hanegem. But if @2mufc0 defence can hold tight, he has more of a goal-scoring threat. Having Krol and Alberto is a good start.

Then again, Tuppet's midfield is good defensively as well, plus his keeper is Gordon Banks. There might be a case for Vidic-Desailly being too similar, but against two 9 1/2 s like Zlatan and Kubala, it might work if they just man marked.

In such a tight game, I'd give benefit of the doubt to the team controlling proceedings.

 

[Tuppet]

It works both ways. The tactical instruction (#10) about Van Hanegem also matters in a certain sense.

I also think that Zlatan, Van Hanegem, Kubala and Zidane are very very different from each other.


I agree that Kubala is relatively an obscure player given the lack of videos. I don't know if the video is before or after his severe injury

I have no idea what goes both way mean here. Van Hanegem was quite literally the number 10 for Feyenrood in their CL winning season ( wore #10 jersey), tactical instruction wise he was the advanced midfielder in Ernst Happel's 4-3-3. That's his peak role and that's what he is playing here. I never said he is same as Zidane (although he is quite similar, left sided advanced playmaker, but he is no Zidane clone). Compare this to Kubala role who is playing a B2B midfielder, a role I don't think he played at his peak or even ever. In my other post I have mentioned 4 sources all of whom picked him as a central striker in front of likes of Messi, Cruyff & Maradona no less. I genuinely think that its the obscurity effect at work here, just think would Messi or Cruyff playing in a B2B role would fly in an all time draft ? however complete you think they were.

 

[Tuppet]

Here's a pretty cool video showing Cruyff & Van Hanegem. But more importantly his playing style for his club and not for dutch team -

 

[Ecstatic]

@Tuppet

Thanks for the answer

 

[2mufc0]

Again i refer back to post 41 providing more context on what i meant by Kubala being B2B and what his exact role is, he's not meant to be a Keane/Davids/Vieira type B2B. Kubala had really good work rate, energy and tenacity i wanted to use that for him to help out the midfield, e.g in this case snapping at the heels of Deschamps and Vieira.

Maybe i used the wrong terminology and that's my bad if that's the case.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Van Hanegem was quite literally the number 10 for Feyenrood in their CL winning season ( wore #10 jersey), tactical instruction wise he was the advanced midfielder in Ernst Happel's 4-3-3.

He was foremost a left sided midfielder even then. He had a reputation like Giggs that Right Foot is just for balance when standing/walking. From early years, he got his nickname for his running style and ability to strike the ball from outside off his left foot, which allowed him to put in crosses through the middle of the pitch. I don't really buy him as a #10.

But then I also don't think of Kubala as a B2B either, so given your team the edge here.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Again i refer back to post 41 providing more context on what i meant by Kubala being B2B and what his exact role is, he's not meant to be a Keane/Davids/Vieira type B2B. Kubala had really good work rate, energy and tenacity i wanted to use that for him to help out the midfield, e.g in this case snapping at the heels of Deschamps and Vieira.

Maybe i used the wrong terminology and that's my bad if that's the case.

You're just shooting yourself in the foot by confusing voters on tactics. It's a standard 4-2-3-1 with Redondo and Davids being more than sufficient to hold that midfield. Kubala should be a roaming #10 who can drop back to link. Attacker first, midfielder supplementary. I got the feeling you were using him vice versa from OP.

 

[2mufc0]

He was foremost a left sided midfielder even then. He had a reputation like Giggs that Right Foot is just for balance when standing/walking. From early years, he got his nickname for his running style and ability to strike the ball from outside off his left foot, which allowed him to put in crosses through the middle of the pitch. I don't really buy him as a #10.

But then I also don't think of Kubala as a B2B either, so given your team the edge here.

See post #41 & #53.

 

[2mufc0]

You're just shooting yourself in the foot by confusing voters on tactics. It's a standard 4-2-3-1 with Redondo and Davids being more than sufficient to hold that midfield. Kubala should be a roaming #10 who can drop back to link. Attacker first, midfielder supplementary. I got the feeling you were using him vice versa from OP.

It's not confusing, i made it clear in the OP i expect him to do some defensive work along but most emphasis would be in attack, it says that in the OP. Probably should have presented it better.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I never thought I would have to defend Kocsis on heading but alright. I don't think you can say that they didn't have strong and tall defenders at that time. I have not done any research on that, but I don't think I believe that having tall physical defenders is a modern thing.

Aye, it was a strange argument IMO, especially given that neither Hansen or Thuram were giants. I'm sure Kocsis came up against plenty of ~6 foot tall CBs. Hansen wasn't even a particularly great athlete. Thuram was, but I associate him more with incredible pace and power in ground duels rather than being particularly special in the air.

 

[Tuppet]

He was foremost a left sided midfielder even then. He had a reputation like Giggs that Right Foot is just for balance when standing/walking. From early years, he got his nickname for his running style and ability to strike the ball from outside off his left foot, which allowed him to put in crosses through the middle of the pitch. I don't really buy him as a #10.

But then I also don't think of Kubala as a B2B either, so given your team the edge here.

I really shouldn't be debating with you, as you've voted for me but I beg to differ. I don't think him favoring the left side or being very good with left foot has anything to do with him not being a number 10. Plenty of number 10's have played or favored one or the other side, Laudrup, Zidane for left and Kopa for right side are obvious examples. From the clips of 1969-70 European cup final that I've seen he was clearly not a winger or a wide midfielder at that time. Feyenrood actually had one of the greatest Dutch left winger playing for them in Moulijn. Van Hanegem is considered one of the most important player for that team, finishing as their third highest goalscorer in the European cup run and winning Dutch player of the year. From what I can see he was Feyenrood's most advanced midfielder, he scored most out of all three midfielders and created the most, so that sounds like a proper number 10 role to me.

 

[Tuppet]

Alright I am off to bed, its a great game @2mufc0 regardless of who wins. Best of luck for the last stretch.

For the last time probably, I would reiterate some of the points -

1. I have a better attack, both my wingers are better and my striker is the greatest header of the ball in the history of game. Stanley Matthews is largely known as one of the greatest dribbler and provider from wings. This is IMO the easiest path to a goal. While both of my wingers are facing good fullbacks it needs to be remembered that Finney & Matthews in particular faced some of the best fullbacks and came out on top. Here's my full post on Matthews from previous game - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rea...1-tuppet-vs-pat_mustard.430575/#post-21169765

Leaving this one video from the post here, Matthews against Nilton Santos, who was at least as good a fullback as Krol if not better, watch Matthews going past Santos here practically at will -

2. Van Hanegem was an absolutely brilliant provider from deep as well. One of the finest passer of all time. his crosses from left side and deep were Beckham-esque. Some examples -

Now imagine Kocsis getting at the end of those, its going to be nigh impossible to stop him here. Also I don't think either of 2mufc0's CB is that dominant in the air (they are good but not someone IMO you would associate as being aerial monsters). Van Hanegem really was that good, his long pass accuracy stat in pes is 96 amongst the highest end of the attribute and definitely highest on the pitch. Also Desailly/Vidic/Kocsis getting on the end of those freekicks is another pretty good route to the goals.

3. From whatever I've read and seen I think Kubala is best as a creative striker. That's what most of Internet seem to believe and I think he is playing too deep here and is bogged down by some defensive duties, while he is probably 2mufc0's best goal threat in this game. 2mufc0 has clarified that he is not playing a defensive B2B, but I still think he is still too deep and should be the furtherest guy in the pitch. I personally don't believe that he is best fit to get the best out of Ibra and they would clash with each other, as both were largely creative second strikers but I don't think many agree with me. Personally I think to get best out of Ibra and use his playmaking to full extent he should be played in a 4-3-3-ish system where he has freedom to run the attack. Either way, if he is playing mostly as a target man he would not get better of my CBs who are going to nullify most of his physicality.

4. Finally not to mention that Kubala's positioning has a side effect on midfield balance. If you want him very deep then I think the attack is underwhelming and would fail to score against my defense. But if you want him near opposition box most of the time (his right position in my opinion) then there is a clear 3 vs 2 in midfield and it would lead my midfield to dominate the game, since both set of midfielders are about the same quality-wise. Having ball for longer periods of time against players as threatening as Hanegem, Matthew & Finney (3 best long passers on the pitch btw) and a striker as complete and dominant in air as Kocsis is enough edge for my team.

I really can't get over Kubala's position here though, its just would never have worked if some other big names who are similar to Kubala have played this way. I think Kubala is the best attacker (even best player) in 2mufc0's team and is misused.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats on getting to the finals @2mufc0

Hard luck @Tuppet Drafts are an unforgiving mistress.

 

[Physiocrat]

I'm surprised by this result. I blame the Perisic thread for giving genuine wingers a bad name.

 

[Tuppet]

Congrats @2mufc0 that was a brilliant squad you assembled. Best of luck for the final.

Congrats on getting to the finals @2mufc0

Hard luck @Tuppet Drafts are an unforgiving mistress.

Heh, on to the next one, bring on the 4 way auction FM no mates draft.

I'm surprised by this result. I blame the Perisic thread for giving genuine wingers a bad name.

It would all change after Perisic provides 50 assists to Lukaku next season.

 

[Physiocrat]

Congrats @2mufc0 that was a brilliant squad you assembled. Best of luck for the final.

Heh, on to the next one, bring on the 4 way auction FM no mates draft.

Imagine the meltdown when you realise the two players you spent £90m on are ineligible to play together as one of them had a three game loan at Milan in 1994.

 

[2mufc0]

Congrats @2mufc0 that was a brilliant squad you assembled. Best of luck for the final.

Heh, on to the next one, bring on the 4 way auction FM no mates draft.

It would all change after Perisic provides 50 assists to Lukaku next season.

Thanks @Tuppet, as always you make great teams, good game.