Reality-Monopoly Draft - SF: harms vs Enigma/Sjor

With players at peak, who will win the match?


  • Total voters
    27
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,440
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
VS


.................................. TEAM HARMS ........................................................................ TEAM ENIGMA/SJOR ...................................


Team harms

Building a perfect 4-4-2 is a must for every drafter. The supposed simplicity of that formation highlights every little imperfection, and it becomes an incredibly entertaining challenge to get rid of all of them.

Francesco Toldo - Complete GK: pretty much the perfect modern goalkeeper, consistent with cat-like reflexes, also great with his feet due to playing outfield during the youth
Nilton Santos - Balanced FB: Tall, powerfully built, elegant and versatile, he was usually cool under pressure, turned quickly for such a big man, tackled firmly and was always ready to surge forward and make use of his strong left foot. In 1998 he was chosen as a left back for world team of the 20th century — enough said.
Paul McGrath - Complete CB: McGrath was one of those unique centre-backs whom you just didn't know how to classify. He was athletic, monstrous in the air and someone who relished the physical battle with the hustling centre-forwards, but his reading of the game was top notch, always putting out fires and his positioning impeccable - an immense blend of qualities from your archetypal ball playing centre-back and stopper. He was technically gifted and a really cultured player on the ball - esp his one-touch passes and keeping the play ticking - frequently playing as a DM for United and for Ireland in the Euros and the WC but he wasn't exactly overly domineering on the ball and tried his best to keep it simple.
Roberto Ayala - Aggressive CB: He was phenomenal — strong, resolute, aggressive, quick, all the attributes you need to be a top defender. His performances in the Champions League earned him a prestigious UEFA Club defender of the year award, alongside with the admiration by his today's opponent, Rio Ferdinand, who included him to his CL dream team.
Manfred Kaltz - Attacking right back: Very few right backs in history can rival Kaltz' offensive contribution, and probably none were as good as him at crossing in particular. With David Beckham ahead of him he will play a role of Gary Neville on steroids, showcasing his crossing, passing, shooting and, of course, defending. Make sure to check out his MotM performance against Real Madrid in the CL semi-finals (below).
Ryan Giggs - Rampaging LW: we all remember young Giggs - incredible pace and dribbling ability, one of those players that constantly kept you on the edge of your seat
Bryan Robson - Attacking B2B: one of the most complete midfielders of his time, he combined great technique and goalscoring with tactical intelligence and never-say-die attitude on and off the pitch. Captain. Joga has made some more compilations of him in the last few days, make sure to check them out if you have time, it's a pure pleasure for any United fan.
Valery Voronin - Defensive midfielder: a player who was capable both of man-marking the likes of Eusebio and Albert out of the game, and orchestrating the play for USSR and Torpedo. Don't hesitate to ask more about him.
David Beckham - Right winger: I hope that I don't have to do in details to explain here how a 4-4-2 with Giggs and Beckham on the wings work. In just does, and it does perfectly, which we all know. Kaltz is an interesting addition to that mix though.
John Charles - Target man: A prolific goalscorer, due to his height, physique, and strength, he excelled in the air, and was also capable of scoring with both feet due to his powerful and accurate shot. Despite his size, he was also a fast player, who was gifted with good technical skills and passing ability, which allowed him both to score and create goals. For anyone who saw Charles play in the late 1950's and early 1960's when he was at his peak, the Welshman was the stuff of legends. There is a famous photo of him scoring yet another header and the goalkeeper is clinging on to him while two defenders try in vain to stop him. Another picture shows the dreadnought striker leaping above Vieri (not that one) in a derby match and even at full stretch, the Torino keeper is nowhere near him. John Charles was more than the proverbial battering ram. He was blessed with the ability to hang in the air and, as if suspended in motion, he would use his momentary advantage to decide whether to head for goal or lay the ball off for a colleague to apply the coup de grace. His unselfish play won him many admirers.
Thomas Müller - Raumdeuter: Football Manager made a specific role only for him, Raumdeuter, the interpretor of space. Second striker with the freedom to move around as he wants, his workrate and off the ball movement is key for my team. 10 goals in 2 World Cups (and he has been the best player over those two tournaments combined as well), 161 goals in 394 games for Bayern, all that while working his arse off for the team. Penultimate player's player.

Bench: Gianluigi Donnarumma, Kevin Keegan, Luigi Riva, Dani Carvajal, Rafa Marquez

Midfield

Probably the most crucial task is to find the right balance in midfield. In many games your 2 central midfielders would be outnumbered, so they both need to be outstanding defensively and physically (see Rijkaard-Ancelotti, Keane-Scholes, Schweinsteiger-Martinez), while at the same time possessing enough skill to contribute in attack, both in terms of playmaking and goalscoring.

In Valery Voronin I have the outstanding defensive presence combined with sublime technique and spatial awareness (thanks to Joga’s PR machine I no longer sound like a biased lunatic). And I’m being honest here in saying that I won’t trade him for anyone else in the pool — not that Redondo or Varela are worse, but with fine margins I’m going with the personal favorite. Partnering him, is the colossal figure of Bryan Robson. He isn’t usually mentioned alongside the very best in history, but in his career he often faced absolutely astonishing opposition (Maradona, Platini, Laudrup, Gullit, Rijkaard, Schuster, Tigana and such), and not once was he outclassed by those players, despite usually playing for a lesser side (be it England or United of 80’s) — and even outplaying them on some memorable occasions, like Maradona in 1984 or Laudrup in 1991. An all-rounded midfield powerhouse, with countless energy, great technique, anticipation and positional awareness but, above all, unrivaled winning mentality and leadership.

Not much is there to say about my wingers from the tactical perspective maybe. 4-4-2, Ryan Giggs on the left, David Beckham on the right. Perfection. David plays closer to central midfielders, often using Kaltz' overlaps, Giggs is playing more incisive role with Santos controlling the space behind him.

Bonus
Ryan Giggs on Bryan Robson's influence:
"This Sheffield United right back was kicking me in one game, giving me a few verbals and it affected me a little bit. I said to Robbo: "That right back's just said he's going to break my legs". Robbo said: "Did he? You come and play center midfield. I'm going to play left wing for 10 minutes". We swapped positions. Robbo soon came back: "Aye, you're all right now, go back over". Problem solved! I had this mentality that if Robson was playing, we'd never lose. We usually won. He had that authority. He'd tell me when I was not passing enough or dribbling too much. Him and Brucey were brilliant for me".


Defence

Nothing complicated. Nilton Santos excelled in Brazil's 4-2-4 and won 2 World Cups as a crucial part of it. With Maldini being blocked, there is literally no better alternative for Nilton here. He is not an overlapping defender, but he had immaculate technique — he will provide support from the back, showcasing his long and middle passing ability and dribbling. Paul McGrath is considered by many as the greatest defender in Ireland's and Manchester United's history, defensively he was flawless and his ball-playing skills were quite impressive for a center back. Partnering him is Roberto Ayala, the linchpin of incredible Valencia's side of 00's. In the words of his opponent, Rio Ferdinand (who included him in his Champions league dream XI: "He was phenomenal, outstanding. He was 5’10 but could jump like he was 7’3. He was a typical Argentinian player: strong, resolute, aggressive, quick – all the attributes you need to be a top defender". Manfred Kaltz was a key player for Hamburg and West Germany, and his crossing from a right back position is unrivaled in history. As Hans Hrubesch famously said: "Manni banana, I head, goal". Well, John Charles is an improvement on Hrubesch.

Attack

John Charles is the focal point of my attack, he won't drop deep much, but will constantly apply pressure on Enigma's (brilliant) defenders. Now in Kohler he has one of the toughest opponents he could've faced, but even he isn't capable of completely shutting him down. With the service from Beckham and Kaltz (both are all-time great crossers of the ball) and Giggs, who wasn't half bad either, he will get enough chances to outmuscle Kohler — and even one or two little mistakes from the German will be enough to win the game here. Thomas Müller will use his immaculate spatial awareness — and if you'll look at Charles play, you'll see that he was as happy to head the ball to the partner as he was happy to put it into the net. I expect a lot of space in this game, Enigma can't risk to sit back with my battering ram and his supporters, and this is Thomas' natural game.

Tactical notes

  • The biggest mismatch of the game is, of course, my right flank against Enigma's left. There are two options for him, none of which seems ideal — to put Capdevila, an underwhelming player at this stage, or Netto — but it will be a total waste of his best qualities (and not a panacea anyway). While I have Beckham and Kaltz — capable of going past the opposition (surprisingly, Kaltz probably more than Beckham), and/or putting those inch-perfect crosses from literally any point of the pitch. Without constant pressure those two will decide the game for me.
  • A battle that will probably decide game here is John Charles against Jurgen Kohler. Both are considered all-time greats when we are talking about aerial game, and I don't see one having a significant advantage over the other (Charles was 2 cm taller though). But the thing is, the attacker always have the advantage — and with the outstanding and consistent crossing from both wings, Charles will get enough chances to convert one or two of them. Müller running around looking for rebounds is a very threatening option too.
  • And the last, but not least - Enigma has a mouthwatering front 4 (I assume that Nedved starts centrally, would prefer him there over Litmanen), but their best player is up against my best defender (Rummenigge vs Nilton Santos). Not saying that he'll take him out of the game, I think the same logic from Charles/Kohler situation can be applied here, but I hope that my attack will get a better service.


Video footage


He was very capable of those towering one-man defensive performances at the highest stage, no matter the opposition. Make sure not to miss out on Paul McGrath's appreciation thread: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/classic-players-paul-mcgrath.430204/#post-21107204
Robson's own favorite performance (yes, even ahead 1984 Barca, although objectively he played better that day) — the first European final for English club after the infamous ban. 34 years old Robson lead 6th placed United against Cruyff's Dream Team with Laudrup and Koeman. Needless to say, he was magnificent, an absolute must see for every United fan out there.
Just to remind everyone, as much as myself, what a player Ryan Giggs was in the late 90's. This is a crucial game against Juventus — a side that finished runners up in the last CL campaign and will go all the way to the final this year. Incredible game and performance by Giggs — and also you'll notice an interesting role that Fergie gavee him in the first half (in the second half he played as a more orthodox left winger)

TEAM ENIGMA/SJOR

Formation: 4-2-3-1
Defensive line: Normal
Style: Counter attacking - direct style - high work rate

Players:

GK: Peter Schmeichel
- He broke nearly every commonly taught aspect of goalkeeping. Gifted with an out of this world amount of athleticism it was almost comedic how he managed to make so many different, spectacular saves. Whatever the occasion, Schmeichel was up to the task, and then some. Schmeichel was unbeatable in one verus one situations. Much credit is due to his lateral movement but also how active his hands always were.

LB: Joan Capdevila - Balanced full back who is solid in defence but also contributes going forward. Ever-present throughout the ultimate victorious World Cup Finals campaign. He was also the only player who started the final that did not represent either Real Madrid or Barcelona. Won the EURO's 2 years prior as undisputed starter in the golden era of Spanish football.

RB: Eric Gerets - One of the best full backs in the 80's Gerets was tough, disciplined and tactically shrewd right back. Considered to be one of the greatest players in Belgian football history and at his peak he was regarded as one of the best right-backs in Europe. His contribution to PSVs success is immeasurable; he provided the stability season after season and this allowed the club to build on their success. The bravery, courage and heart he offered on the pitch earned him a nickname: “The Lion (of Flanders)”.

CB: Jürgen Kohler - When you are looking at the greatest players in certain position you can't look further than Kohler in the stopper role. EURO champion in '96, world champion in '90. CL winner with Dortmund, 3 times Bundesliga winner and once Seria A winner in its heyday. He won it all on club and international level while fending off the best forwards in the game. Kohler was dubbed a Fussballgott when he ended Eric Cantona's United run in Champions League semifinal in 97. His duels with Marco van Basten during the 1988 tournament will never be forgotten. Coming out of the famous Mannheimer Schule, Kohler was a rock-solid defender, and much more than that. Interesting fact about Jurgen Kohler is in all his games with Juve or Germany, Marco van Basten never scored against him.

CB: Rio Ferdinand - arguably the best CB in United history, he formed a rock solid partnership with Vidic, wining more than 10 titles with United in it's best days domestically and in Europe.

CM: Igor Netto - One of the best talents the Soviet Union has produced. Netto was an amazing footballer who initially started in defence but was too talented to be restricted to a left back role. He was pretty versatile and could play as a wide midfielder or a left back and defensive midfielder or a central one. His grit, determination and solid defensive skills are going to be of great use to our side, but also his excellent passing skills.

CM - Mário Coluna - a complete midfielder, energetic, with enormous work rate and solid defensively. True leader in the best Benfica team alongside Eusebio and one of the all time greats in his position.

AM/Playmaker - Jari Litmanen - fantastic vision and a hardworking #10 in the side. He is a great dribbler with the ball and can unlock any defence with his trademark final ball. Litmanen also is top finisher and at the height of his career hit 31 goals in 53 games, finishing 3rd in the ballon D'or ranking in 1995. Litmanen’s form in the next season was especially inspiring as he morphed into one of the games most deadly playmakers. A tenacious, quick-witted goalscorer with an eye for a pass, he was the perfect number 10. More importantly, his reputation in Amsterdam was growing, and the fans took to calling him ‘Merlin’ due to his unfathomable ability to drift between tackles.

LW: Hristo Stoichkov - "The Dagger" is the greatest Bulgarian footballer of all-time. He played as a left-forwarder who was known for his explosive acceleration and speed dribbling, and for taking unpredictable shots on goal. He was also notable at taking free kicks and penalties as well as being among the best crossers in the world at his prime. Stoichkov was the major force that carried Bulgaria to won fourth place in FIFA world cup 1994. As part of Johan Cruyff's 'Dream Team', Stoichkov helped Barcelona to the most successful era of the club and he had become an idol for the club's fans, and was Barça's most popular player at the time. In 1993, he also finished fifth place FIFA World Player of the Year.

RW: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge - One of the best forwards in the game, who needs no introduction. Scoring more than 300 goals in his career and winning almost everything for club and country, along with 2 Ballon D'ors to boot.

CF: David Villa - Probably the greatest Spanish striker of all time. Probably Acebal the Sporting Gijón former manaeger describes him best - the key to his game is his movement – desmarques de rotura, the ability suddenly to shake off defenders, made him stand out.

At his peak he played for Valencia side which was inferior to the giants Real and Barca but individually he was a terrific footballer a quote from 2009:

He has scored free-kicks, headers, volleys, chips and screechers. There is a certain obsessiveness about him. "I can't remember every goal," he says, "but if I sat down with a pen and a piece of paper, I'm sure I'd remember most of them." There are a hell of a lot to remember. There are 168 league goals, despite not playing for one of the country's very best sides. Valencia have finished fifth, 10th, fourth and third in the seasons Villa has spent there; Zaragoza were 12th twice. Over the last five years, only Samuel Eto'o has scored more goals than him. And Eto'o only has six more – in a team that racked up 129 more than Villa's sides. Then there's the fact that for most of that time he has taken Valencia's corners and free-kicks – and however good a player is he can't head in his own crosses.

Player roles:

GK: Schmeichel - Complete keeper, wall for opposing attackers.
LB: Capdevila - balanced full back contributing in both phases
RB: Gerets - balanced full back contributing in both phases
CB: Kohler - stopper
CB: Ferdinand - ball playing defender
CM: Netto - Box to Box, more defensive functions, but will also use his passing skills and blend right in to the midfield.
CM: Coluna - Box to box midfielder contributing in both phases
AM: Jari Litmanen - hardworking #10 midfield playmaker of the side - controls the tempo and flow of the game, with top notch goalscoring record.
LW: Hristo Stoichkov - electric pace, finishing and high work rate.
RW: Karl-Heinz Rummenigge - right wing forward - beating opposing defenders with his high speed, physical power and technical abilities and excellent finishing abilities to boot.
CF: David Villa - Complete striker with top notch movement and excellent finishing

Key Points:
- Probably the best keeper/central defence combo in the draft. Rio, Kohler and Schmeichel will sniff out everything thrown at them, protected by a solid base in midfield in Netto and Coluna.
- complimentary midfield full of steel, determination, creativity and passing ability
- deadly on counters with Stoichkov and Rummenigge on each wing complimented by overlapping full backs.
- Complete center forward in Villa who also can make space for both wingers/wing forwards to attack the box.
- a fluid front three that will interchange positions all the time while also providing tremendous support to their midfield as every single on of them is very good defensive wise and has a great work ethic
- devastating attack, composed of Ballon D'or winners Stoichkov and Kalle on the wings, Spain's best striker in Villa and Litmanen as a playmaker.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Interesting fact about Jurgen Kohler is in all his games with Juve or Germany, Marco van Basten never scored against him.
Interesting and wrong
Against Juventus in 1992
Against Netherlands in 1988 - you seem to forgot "the 1988 tournament will never be forgotten", Kohler concedes a penalty on van Basten that Koeman scores and later on van Basten scores a winner


Voted for myself to see the score. Intrigued - I would've played Nedved centrally, but it's hard to argue against Litmanen as a 10
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
As expected - brilliant teams, incredible array of talent on the show (especially attacking), and Capdevila facing an impossible task to negate Beckham and Kaltz even with Netto's help.

Good luck to you too, @Enigma_87 @Šjor Bepo
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Interesting and wrong
aye, Pat caught it earlier. Still his record against top forwards is pretty impeccable.


Voted for myself to see the score. Intrigued - I would've played Nedved centrally, but it's hard to argue against Litmanen as a 10
Aye both would have been a good fit for this game but we went with Litmanen for the extra goalscoring edge.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
As expected - brilliant teams, incredible array of talent on the show (especially attacking), and Capdevila facing an impossible task to negate Beckham and Kaltz even with Netto's help.
Stoichkov work rate is also worth mentioning. The whole left flank is brimming with grit.

Think we have huge advantage in the goalkeeping area as well. Kohler/Rio and Schmeichel is a solid unit to negate Charles in the box.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Stoichkov work rate is also worth mentioning. The whole left flank is brimming with grit.

Think we have huge advantage in the goalkeeping area as well. Kohler/Rio and Schmeichel is a solid unit to negate Charles in the box.
Can't agree with "huge" since we're going by their peaks. Toldo was literally the best keeper in the world at some point, even though that period wasn't as prolonged and usually he was behind Buffon/Kahn. Schmeichel was better at his peak, and his peak was much longer, but it really is finest margins - neither will make a mistake and both will produce world-class saves regardless of the opposition.
 

SirMattBugsby

Full Member
Joined
May 27, 2016
Messages
1,537
Location
In the house!
Harms seems to have this well-covered. Enigma will be counter-attacking mainly via Litmanen/midfield playing it to the wings. Harms' defensive unit of back four plus Voronin can deal with it I think. Biggest danger is perhaps on Stoichkov's wing since Kaltz may get caught up field.

Also not sure about Litmanen with Villa. Villa does have great link-up play but neither will attract multiple defenders. Perhaps if one of them was a target man or more explosive (Nedved)?
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Can't agree with "huge" since we're going by their peaks. Toldo was literally the best keeper in the world at some point, even though that period wasn't as prolonged and usually he was behind Buffon/Kahn. Schmeichel was better at his peak, and his peak was much longer, but it really is finest margins - neither will make a mistake and both will produce world-class saves regardless of the opposition.
I can't agree with this tho.

Schmeichel accolades:

Individual


Toldo:

Individual

Toldo's peak was brief as you mentioned and in an all time standard he's a good 1-2 tiers below Schmeichel.

Disagree of being the best in the world at any point of his career. At his best he'd still be below Kahn level for example during the early 00's when he was at his best and Buffon's as well. He had top reflexes of course, but he wasn't as good as Buffon, Schmeichel, etc organizing the area and also when it comes to positioning.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Harms seems to have this well-covered. Enigma will be counter-attacking mainly via Litmanen/midfield playing it to the wings. Harms' defensive unit of back four plus Voronin can deal with it I think. Biggest danger is perhaps on Stoichkov's wing since Kaltz may get caught up field.

Also not sure about Litmanen with Villa. Villa does have great link-up play but neither will attract multiple defenders. Perhaps if one of them was a target man or more explosive (Nedved)?
There is also Kalle and Villa coming through Nilton when surging forward and through Ayala channel.

Both Villa and Litmanen are quite explosive to be honest, also Villa as target man for Valencia was one of the best forwards in Europe at the time. Even with a lower side team he managed to put numbers to the all elite strikers in his time.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Think our biggest advantage is in our mouthwatering front four which has plenty of goals in them - Litmanen, Kalle, Stoichkov and Villa were both top class attackers and we could exploit Ayala being the weakest CB on the pitch.

Our CB pair is also pretty well equipped to dealing with Charles and Muller, also aided by our superior keeper in Schmeichel.

The left zone we have 3 team players in Netto, Capdevila and Stoichkov with plenty of grit and determination who can track back and also negate Beckham/Kaltz flank and its effect.

Gerets on Giggs is also a good fit with plenty of pace, strength and tactical awareness.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667
Also not sure about Litmanen with Villa. Villa does have great link-up play but neither will attract multiple defenders. Perhaps if one of them was a target man or more explosive (Nedved)?
Not sure that i understand what you trying to say? You have to be a target man to attract multiple defenders? Wouldnt say anyone on the pitch is a type of player that attracts multiple defenders but if anyone is of that type is Kalle or even Stoichkov.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667

Litmanen footballing masterclass at Bernabeu, completely destroying Redondo. With midfield quality being on relatively similar level he will have a massive role in creating time and space for our front line as we will have the numbers in the middle.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
I can't agree with this tho.
Schmeichel accolades:
Toldo:
He was also rated 4 times just behind Buffon in Serie A keeper of the year - Schmeichel never had such competition. And ESM team of the year means that the journous thought that he was, literally, the best in the world.
Now, again, there is a clear gap between them. Schmeichel is, in my eyes, the single greatest ever (and Toldo, obviously, isn't), but the difference in keepers tends to nullify itself at some point.
If you're comparing Schmeichel to Diego Lopez or Donnarumma, you know that the latter two will make mistakes and won't make all those world-class saves. Toldo won't make mistakes and will make his fair share of world-class saves, and on his day he can stop pretty much everything. Schmeichel did it longer and I'd have his box commanding presence as their main difference, but there is no game-deciding gap here.
 

Ecstatic

Cutie patootie!
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
13,787
Supports
PsG

Litmanen footballing masterclass at Bernabeu, completely destroying Redondo. With midfield quality being on relatively similar level he will have a massive role in creating time and space for our front line as we will have the numbers in the middle.
@2mufc0

They have probably picked Litmanen in case they have to play against you :D
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,341
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
Both teams nearing perfection now. Capdevilla maybe stands out as a soft link at this point.

I think Toldo's a bit under-appreciated in the grand scheme of things. Massive frame and rangy with the usual top-end reflexes. Absolute class around the late 1990s/early 2000s period and in many other eras (i.e. when not competing with 2 of the top 5 or so of all-time in Kahn/Buffon) may well have been the best in the world.


Litmanen footballing masterclass at Bernabeu, completely destroying Redondo. With midfield quality being on relatively similar level he will have a massive role in creating time and space for our front line as we will have the numbers in the middle.
Such a fantastic team performance from Ajax that night.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667
Both teams nearing perfection now. Capdevilla maybe stands out as a soft link at this point.

I think Toldo's a bit under-appreciated in the grand scheme of things. Massive frame and rangy with the usual top-end reflexes. Absolute class around the late 1990s/early 2000s period and in many other eras (i.e. when not competing with 2 of the top 5 or so of all-time in Kahn/Buffon) may well have been the best in the world.
not sure thats true, enigma didnt said Toldo isnt quality....he said Big Dane was superior(better) which he was, that doesnt make Toldo bad. He was competing with Kahn, Buffon etc. and he was seen as a class below keeper, Schmeichel is in that Buffon/Kahn tier so again he is competing with higher class.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,018
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
He was also rated 4 times just behind Buffon in Serie A keeper of the year - Schmeichel never had such competition. And ESM team of the year means that the journous thought that he was, literally, the best in the world.
Now, again, there is a clear gap between them. Schmeichel is, in my eyes, the single greatest ever (and Toldo, obviously, isn't), but the difference in keepers tends to nullify itself at some point.
If you're comparing Schmeichel to Diego Lopez or Donnarumma, you know that the latter two will make mistakes and won't make all those world-class saves. Toldo won't make mistakes and will make his fair share of world-class saves, and on his day he can stop pretty much everything. Schmeichel did it longer and I'd have his box commanding presence as their main difference, but there is no game-deciding gap here.
Agree with this it's not something worth arguing over, Toldo was a great keeper and will do what's required in goal.
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,341
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
not sure thats true, enigma didnt said Toldo isnt quality....he said Big Dane was superior(better) which he was, that doesnt make Toldo bad. He was competing with Kahn, Buffon etc. and he was seen as a class below keeper, Schmeichel is in that Buffon/Kahn tier so again he is competing with higher class.
Well 'huge advantage' would imply that Toldo isn't that much kop. Schmeichel wins out because of his overall influence, dominant personality and capacity to pull off a one-man defiance in the face of an onslaught, but it would be fair to say that Toldo was probably less error-prone and isn't a million miles away in their overall standings.
 

Ecstatic

Cutie patootie!
Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
13,787
Supports
PsG
There are very probably some interesting games between Deportivo & United to illustrate the Capdevila-Beckham battle.
 

2mufc0

Everything is fair game in capitalism!
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
17,018
Supports
Dragon of Dojima
Might have been worth @harms putting Giggs on the right to have a go at Capdevila.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667
Well 'huge advantage' would imply that Toldo isn't that much kop. Schmeichel wins out because of his overall influence, dominant personality and capacity to pull off a one-man defiance in the face of an onslaught, but it would be fair to say that Toldo was probably less error-prone and isn't a million miles away in their overall standings.
missed that, saw only superior part....and i agree with downcast, gk individual battle isnt key here but will say this while we are at gk subject. Our back 3(Schmeichel, Rio, Kohler) is perfect for defending against Beckham crosses for Charles/Muller.
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Just personal preference but I'd prefer a more complete forward than Charles especially against a strong balanced defense like Kohler-Ferdinand-Schmeichel. I think it makes Muller's role even more important for harms side. Hard to see either side controlling this match from midfield though which makes it harder to predict for me.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Just personal preference but I'd prefer a more complete forward than Charles especially against a strong balanced defense like Kohler-Ferdinand-Schmeichel. I think it makes Muller's role even more important for harms side. Hard to see either side controlling this match from midfield though which makes it harder to predict for me.
A more complete? I suspect that you haven't seen many of Charles? He was a great dribbler, with amazing hold up play, not to mention his defensive side; very fast with a strong and precise shot. As complete number 9 as they come, really

Can't post my match compilation from a phone, but even from his goals in Serie A (spoilered in the OP) you can see a vast array of different goals
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
A more complete? I suspect that you haven't seen many of Charles? He was a great dribbler, with amazing hold up play, not to mention his defensive side; very fast with a strong and precise shot. As complete number 9 as they come, really

Can't post my match compilation from a phone, but even from his goals in Serie A (spoilered in the OP) you can see a vast array of different goals
Seen a couple of his clips on Youtube. I personally would not have used 'great' to describe his dribbling nor 'amazing' to describe what I saw of his hold up play but fair enough if I didn't watch the right clips
 

Pat_Mustard

I'm so gorgeous they want to put me under arrest!
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,811
Location
A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
There are very probably some interesting games between Deportivo & United to illustrate the Capdevila-Beckham battle.
Strangely there isn't. Utd always seemed to be playing Deportivo in the early 2000s, but Capdevila and Beckham barely shared the pitch. Out of 6 matches they never started the same game, and only briefly crossed paths in two games. Once when Capdevila came on as a sub, once when Becks was subbed on.

EDIT: Beckham had actually came off injured before Capdevila came on in one of those games, so they only faced each other once, very briefly.
 
Last edited:

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
Well here's the clip I seen and again, I don't see anything amazing or special in his hold up play or dribbling at the level of the draft we are talking about

 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Might have been worth @harms putting Giggs on the right to have a go at Capdevila.
I thought about it, but how? To put Becks on the left? Or Riva? But I want Riva healthy for the possibility of a final.
Muller-Charles-Giggs
---Robson-Beckham
------Voronin?

Not worth it. Plus I simply don't want to move him from the left where he is so devastatingly awesome
 

oneniltothearsenal

Caf's Milton Friedman and Arse Aficionado
Scout
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
11,186
Supports
Brazil, Arsenal,LA Aztecs
That's a good clip. What I see is a very versatile and intelligent player who knows how to leverage his size and speed advantage very well.

What I simply don't see is great dribbling or amazing hold up play. His touch just looks too inconsistent to me for that level of praise. One sequence he has great touch, another its bit poor. Fair enough if you disagree, I know a lot of drafters disagree on players. But I simply don't see him being at the level of other greats in technique, close dribbling and hold up play.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Well 'huge advantage' would imply that Toldo isn't that much kop. Schmeichel wins out because of his overall influence, dominant personality and capacity to pull off a one-man defiance in the face of an onslaught, but it would be fair to say that Toldo was probably less error-prone and isn't a million miles away in their overall standings.
It's not that I don't rate Toldo - he's one of the best keepers Italy had, but for me he's not one of the best keepers ever - all things considered.

Schmeichel on the other hand is. Both in terms of consistency and peak quality.

I'd rate him at the very best keepers in history and certainly top 10, whils I'd have 20 before Toldo for example hence 1-2 tiers above. He's not average of course. I'd rate him at Julio Cesar level for example.
 

Physiocrat

Has No Mates
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
8,978
I'd rate him at the very best keepers in history and certainly top 10, whils I'd have 20 before Toldo for example hence 1-2 tiers above. He's not average of course. I'd rate him at Julio Cesar level for example.
That is harsh to put him at Cesar's level. He was awesome in Euro 2000 and was better than Buffon for a time. Schmikes is better but Toldo was a great keeper.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667
JHard to see either side controlling this match from midfield though which makes it harder to predict for me.
We dont really care about controlling the game, team is set up to play on the counter and IMO its not our team that has to open up to get something out of this. I dont know how harms wants to play but with Muller/Charles/Beckham as 3/4 offensive players he will need to push up on the pitch and open a bit which means we are getting him where we want him. Kalle, Litmanen, Stoichkov and Villa on the counter while on the defensive basis we reckon we are covered. Perfect back 3 to defend against Becks/Charles/Muller. Gerets on Giggs and midfield three against Voronin and Robbo.

If he doesnt push that might end up as a draw but we are more likely to score based on individual quality on the ball and having more players that are capable of pulling something out of nothing.