#Trippyhadthelastlaugh
Redcafe Sheep Draft 2nd Semi Final - Polaroid vs Thisistheone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Some thoughts on the game itself.
1 - Crappy is spot on in that Pol's attack is a bit light and a huge amount of responsibility rests with Zidane. Whilst there is no doubt he is the best player, Zizou is being marshalled by Makelele and there really is no one better to try and curb the Frenchman's influence - if anyone can stick tight, cut out the space and make life difficult then it is Makelele.
2 - If Zidane is stopped/limited the attack really starts to break down, Brian Laudrup, Eto'o and Bale are fine players but not game changers at this level. Defensively I think the defence can cope with this threat.
Whilst Brian Laudrup may be able to pose Pessotto a few problems at times he has very little attacking help from Thuram (who has a big job on his hands defensively, with the outstanding Stoichkov) and Montero is perfectly able to come out to the left and help out if needs be. This is a defensive tactic that will come in handy considering the knowledge Montero/Pessotto have together from Juventus.
Montero himself shouldn't be underrated - he was a fantastic defender for the great Juventus side of the 90s.
Tim Vickery on Montero –
With Makelele sitting they have huge protection - Vieira can play box to box and Scholes has the freedom to bomb forward and latch onto a drilled cross from Cafu, or blast one in from the edge of the area.
4. I'm not sold on the tika takka stuff of Busquets in this side as a slow tempo is not suited to ANY of that front four - Eto'o, Bale and Zidane all suit quicker transitions.
1 - Crappy is spot on in that Pol's attack is a bit light and a huge amount of responsibility rests with Zidane. Whilst there is no doubt he is the best player, Zizou is being marshalled by Makelele and there really is no one better to try and curb the Frenchman's influence - if anyone can stick tight, cut out the space and make life difficult then it is Makelele.
2 - If Zidane is stopped/limited the attack really starts to break down, Brian Laudrup, Eto'o and Bale are fine players but not game changers at this level. Defensively I think the defence can cope with this threat.
Whilst Brian Laudrup may be able to pose Pessotto a few problems at times he has very little attacking help from Thuram (who has a big job on his hands defensively, with the outstanding Stoichkov) and Montero is perfectly able to come out to the left and help out if needs be. This is a defensive tactic that will come in handy considering the knowledge Montero/Pessotto have together from Juventus.
Montero himself shouldn't be underrated - he was a fantastic defender for the great Juventus side of the 90s.
Tim Vickery on Montero –
3 - Not only is the midfield more balanced than Polaroid's, but Scholes and Vieira are granted greater freedom to get forward and affect the game offensively.
With Makelele sitting they have huge protection - Vieira can play box to box and Scholes has the freedom to bomb forward and latch onto a drilled cross from Cafu, or blast one in from the edge of the area.
4. I'm not sold on the tika takka stuff of Busquets in this side as a slow tempo is not suited to ANY of that front four - Eto'o, Bale and Zidane all suit quicker transitions.
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Agree with most of that. 4 in particular, which I was already pointing out in Pol's last game.
The midfield battle in this game is epic. I just cannot decide.
This is actually a very good analysis. Whilst I don't buy the comments about Makalele being able to curb Zidane, there really is a mismatch in the type of players Pol has in his MF and Attack.
I don't think TikaTaka works in Pols team. If he however said Busquets can keep it tidy, and Zidane drops a little deep, and he and Redondos main job is to release killer through balls on the counter over the top and between the lines, then it'd be interesting as Redondo and Zidane have more than enough ability to do that and an Eto'o Laudrup and Bale at their best can be devastating in such a scenario.
I agree with most of what TITO wrote, but I think he's a bit harsh on Eto'o. He did fit in quite well with Guardiola's Barca. Not the extreme version of 10/11, but he was brilliant in the 08/09 version. Also Eto'o was good enough to score a couple against Kohler & Buchwald in my game, so he can't really be out of his depth here 
. I actually believe his peak form is a bit underrated in these fantasy draft games, he was amazing and a true big game player with good workrate. Bale looks like a good fit now on the left with Lahm as a rightfooted leftback in behind him. The Bale - Alaba wing made no sense to me at all, however Lahm - Bale on the left should complement each other very well.
The battles all over the pitch are brilliant. Makelele vs Zidane, Vieria vs Redondo, Thuram vs Stoichkov, Savicevic vs Lahm. But I'm still not sold on that midfield with Busquets in there.
. I actually believe his peak form is a bit underrated in these fantasy draft games, he was amazing and a true big game player with good workrate. Bale looks like a good fit now on the left with Lahm as a rightfooted leftback in behind him. The Bale - Alaba wing made no sense to me at all, however Lahm - Bale on the left should complement each other very well.The battles all over the pitch are brilliant. Makelele vs Zidane, Vieria vs Redondo, Thuram vs Stoichkov, Savicevic vs Lahm. But I'm still not sold on that midfield with Busquets in there.
See, that's my main problem here. Busquets never played that way. He was always part of a team that defended with possession, tactical fouls early to avoid counters. He's not the player you want in that set-up. I also struggle to see how Brian Laudrup was ever consistently devastating on that level, same goes for Bale as a left winger.
I won't go over board and say Zidane will get shut down completely but he will have less influence than usual considering it is Makelele. Zidane himself loved the DM:
Zidane -
Hmm Makélélé getting a tad underrated here I think.
He won't shut out Zidane, but he'll make a damn good attempt at it. Zizou is not getting an easy ride here. Not one bit.
He won't shut out Zidane, but he'll make a damn good attempt at it. Zizou is not getting an easy ride here. Not one bit.
I think you're being a bit harsh here if I'm being honest. Busquets is a very very good player. The kind of things Zidane is quoted to have said about Makalele is very similar to the kind of quotes made by Xavi Iniesta and co. about Busquets - can't find them right now but I'm sure they exist as I recall reading an article once.
I think Busquets can fit in most games however I can see your concern when he is up against two players like Scholes and Viera. Not sold on him completely but certainly not as doubtful as you are!
Also think you're being a tad harsh on Bale. His peak form for spurs was devastating.
See i would go the other way and say he probably gets a bit overrated on here personally.
In my opinion a great attacker will always in a game of football beat the opposition at some point. The law of uncertainty makes that near enough a fact. A player like Makalele can limit the number of times but he can't shut Zidane out. I appreciate that's what you're saying but at the same time I think you're not really doing Zidane justice for just how brilliant he was. This is a man who not only played against great defensive midfielders in his time, but also could beat a number of them in one go.
It sometimes frustrates me in these drafts how we are quick to point out how a defensive midfielder will be able to stop a great number 10 yet so often we ignore when a great defensive partnership is present and assume they'd eventually get beaten.
It was a great year in the league, that's it. Don't think that compares to the peak most of the other players on the pitch had. I also believe that he wasn't that special last season until he became the main player in the team with a free role who often played central as a 2nd striker, not as a left winger.
Oh and Busquets is a completely different type of player than Makelele? That was the point. It had nothing to do with his individual quality.
I know what you're saying. Apologies for comments, it is just a general frustration I have when people bang on about how 1 great defensive midfielder will stop 1 great no. 10 because no single man can do that. A player like Zidane is such that the only way you can really shut him out is by defending against him as a unit. Never in history has one man consistently in every game shut out his opposition attacker. And we are ignoring that Zidane not only played against great defensive players in his day, but often beat two, three or even four of them in one move.
For the record im just arguing a point that frustrates me in drafts in general. Overall I think you're team is much more balanced and more of a "team". You've got my vote unless Pol comes on here and puts a thought in my head of something I've missed.
It did because you were saying how you're not sold on Busquets qualities lol. My post wasn't even comparing Busquets and Makalele anyway?
With Bale I can definitely see your point of view. Just think we are quick to go all nostalgic in drafts sometimes and it's easier to back a player who has finished playing than one who is still playing. But definitely can see your POV on Bale.
One thing I would like to bring up in Pol's favour though is Redondo. You only need to read quotes about him to know he is a brilliant player. And you only need to watch their game vs us to know he can definitely boss a star studded midfield line up. Are we maybe ignoring him in this comparison or? Food for thought.
I like TITO's team better as well, but Pol's back four is so perfectly suited to defend against his team. Can you think of a better rightback to stop Stoichkov's movement than Thuram? I don't like Lahm that much as a leftback (he's quality of course, but better on the right), but Savicevic will drag him into midfield and not go out wide all the time, that makes Lahm a perfect fit here as well. Busquets' tactical intelligence and awareness should help a lot against Totti's movement.
I said I'm not sold on Busquets in there. It was clearly aimed at this set-up, I've defended him quite a few times actually, really rate him highly. I'm also not nostalgic here, but Bale is still really young and played his best football in my opinion in a different position and is also now used at his new club in a different position. We all expect him to have a successful career, but let's say he has to retire tomorrow. How would you rate him in 10-15 years in comparison to the rest of the players in this game?
Agree with your points about Pol's team. When you put it like that, it's interesting. Only thing I'd say is Lahm coming in could be problematic with Cafu being such a great right back. Ferdinand will not be going wide to help out either. Also Totti coming deep with Scholes and Viera breaking forward could be problematic too. Again I think the set up really works if Pol is playing counter football. Sit back and absorb pressure and spring is what he should be doing because that brings his defensive strengths to the fore.
With regards to your Bale comments it's a bit hard to judge like that because as you mentioned he is young. But point noted, as I previously said.
To add something positive about Bale here, I think he can do a pretty good job tracking back. I agree that Lahm needs help, but Bale wasn't a lazy left winger. Here's where his earlier role in comparison to the more devastating free role later helps Pol in my opinion.
Of course overall, the Savicevic - Cafu side is stronger than Lahm - Bale. But I can see it causing problems both ways. Savicevic will do feck all defensively and Lahm can exploit that just as much as Cafu will be a problem the other way round.
No need to apologise, it's good to have some discussion going on.
I agree that one DM can not stop the genius AM but he can certainly make life hard. And no other DM could make things harder for Zidane in this draft, IMO. But yeah, great attack will at some point break a great defense.
This needs to apply both ways so while Pol's back four is superb, my attack is also brilliant. I like the variation of my sides attacking qualities.
It's a fascinating battle.
Don't worry, there's no chance of Redondo being underrated here, as i think that seems to be the game most people have in their mind when judging him in these drafts. It's why he's a must have pick.
I think what's important is the match-up between Laudrup and Pessoto, one that the Dane is perfectly capable of winning.
Not quite as easily with Montero alongside him. The pair of them seen off better wingers and forwards than Brian Laudrup during their pomp in the 90s. Not saying B. Laudrup isn't a good player but there were better in that era.
Well the Montero/Pessotto partnership is a great one to have, no doubt about that.
I know I've said it numerous times over the duration of the draft, but I love Tito's back five.
I'm not a huge Makelele fan, I don't like having a limited player anchoring the midfield, it's just a deformation I've grown used to.
That said, if in drafts you could get away with what Real could get away with on the back of Makelele...
We would all be going "if Makelele picks up Bastürk, who is on Ballack? Zidane? And the White Brazilian is tearing a new one into Solari".
Didn't work like that though.
Good healthy discussion with interesting contributions from all
TITO has an absolutely outstanding side, there isn't much to fault
Fortunately, my defensive setup is perfectly match-made to best limit his attack - his relatively narrower attack allows my defence to be more compact, constricting space that is imperative to openings. Thuram-Cannavaro-Rio-Lahm-Neuer with protection from Redondo-Busquets will be nigh on impenetrable if there is not enough width to strecth opponents and create space. Space is critical to opening of gaps, if space is constricted, both passing lanes and dribbling channels are easier to block, opportunities are correspondingly diminished. Allowing top quality opposition the luxury of defending compactly and the difficulty in scoring is doubled.
The telepathic understanding between Thuram and Cannavaro establisbed from their Parma-Juve partnership will help tremendously in limiting the threat from Stoickhov. Lahm has impressed me with his spell in midfield, his intelligence, reading and positioning is top-notch, earning no higher praise than Guardiola labelling him as the most intelligent player he has ever worked with. Lahm will receive no better support and cover than Rio Ferdinand, that immaculate reading, prescient anticipation, that incredibly smooth change of gear accelerating to lightning speed, he is like Bobby Moore with a Roll-Royce engine. And as if that is not enough, add twin towers to the defensive fortress - Redondo and Busquets with their tactical awareness and impeccable positioning marshalling the defensive zone, shielding, intercepting and tackling.
The importance of stretching the opponents to create space and openings, particularly against top class defenders & midfielders, if overlooked, doubles the challenge of finding gaps and halves the chances of scoring.
On Busquets
Rio Ferdinand
Thuram and Cannavaro
Lahm
TITO has an absolutely outstanding side, there isn't much to fault
Fortunately, my defensive setup is perfectly match-made to best limit his attack - his relatively narrower attack allows my defence to be more compact, constricting space that is imperative to openings. Thuram-Cannavaro-Rio-Lahm-Neuer with protection from Redondo-Busquets will be nigh on impenetrable if there is not enough width to strecth opponents and create space. Space is critical to opening of gaps, if space is constricted, both passing lanes and dribbling channels are easier to block, opportunities are correspondingly diminished. Allowing top quality opposition the luxury of defending compactly and the difficulty in scoring is doubled.
The telepathic understanding between Thuram and Cannavaro establisbed from their Parma-Juve partnership will help tremendously in limiting the threat from Stoickhov. Lahm has impressed me with his spell in midfield, his intelligence, reading and positioning is top-notch, earning no higher praise than Guardiola labelling him as the most intelligent player he has ever worked with. Lahm will receive no better support and cover than Rio Ferdinand, that immaculate reading, prescient anticipation, that incredibly smooth change of gear accelerating to lightning speed, he is like Bobby Moore with a Roll-Royce engine. And as if that is not enough, add twin towers to the defensive fortress - Redondo and Busquets with their tactical awareness and impeccable positioning marshalling the defensive zone, shielding, intercepting and tackling.
The importance of stretching the opponents to create space and openings, particularly against top class defenders & midfielders, if overlooked, doubles the challenge of finding gaps and halves the chances of scoring.
On Busquets
Cruyff said:
Xavi said:
Del Bosque said:
Guardiola said:
Those who know football understand BusquetsMascherano said:
Rio Ferdinand
Thuram and Cannavaro
Lahm
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The above post addresses the defensive aspect of my team
This one shall address the offensive aspect which has two key elements
1. Makele will be preoccupied with Zidane, aggravated by the occassions of Redondo getting past his opponent to link up with Zidane for a dual creative axis. Makelele will be too overloaded to help out his fullbacks. Once Laudrup gets the better of Pessotto, Montero is forced to go wide, leaving Eto'o one on one vs Ferrara in the centre. This is the converse example of how my team's width create more space and openings for passing lanes, dribbling channels and goalscoring opportunities
Zidane combining the arts of football and ballet
Redondo taking peak Keano to school
Laudrup tearing apart the almost mythical Milan defence
He always shines on the biggest stages - Euro 92, WC 98 etc
2. A deadly predator that will be most efficient and least wasteful in making the best of goalscoring opportunities. In a tight game, this is decisive in getting the edge. I am thankful to have Eto'o on my side rather than facing him. Eto'o, a clinical finisher with instincts, pace and movement one-on-one in the centre making every opportunity count in a tight game and a compact defensive unit of Redondo-Busquets-Thuram-Cannavaro-Rio-Lahm-Neuer killing space at the other. That is the best shot at the game-winning ticket
Born to score...
This one shall address the offensive aspect which has two key elements
1. Makele will be preoccupied with Zidane, aggravated by the occassions of Redondo getting past his opponent to link up with Zidane for a dual creative axis. Makelele will be too overloaded to help out his fullbacks. Once Laudrup gets the better of Pessotto, Montero is forced to go wide, leaving Eto'o one on one vs Ferrara in the centre. This is the converse example of how my team's width create more space and openings for passing lanes, dribbling channels and goalscoring opportunities
Zidane combining the arts of football and ballet
Redondo taking peak Keano to school
Sir Alex Ferguson said:
Laudrup tearing apart the almost mythical Milan defence
He always shines on the biggest stages - Euro 92, WC 98 etc
2. A deadly predator that will be most efficient and least wasteful in making the best of goalscoring opportunities. In a tight game, this is decisive in getting the edge. I am thankful to have Eto'o on my side rather than facing him. Eto'o, a clinical finisher with instincts, pace and movement one-on-one in the centre making every opportunity count in a tight game and a compact defensive unit of Redondo-Busquets-Thuram-Cannavaro-Rio-Lahm-Neuer killing space at the other. That is the best shot at the game-winning ticket
Born to score...
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I've gone for Tito. Creative DM's are OK, but 2 of them against a team playing a false 9 is a mismatch. The creativity could be better distributed in forward positions. Scholes and Vieira will be seeing plenty of the ball and overall I see his team creating more chances.
Also gone TITO. I really love the players in Pol's team however I think they don't "fit" as well as TITOs. In such a close match that alone was enough to swing it.
As beautifully constructed TITO's team is, I'm leaning towards Pol on this one given the pace of Eto'o and the ability of Zidane and Laudrup to fashion a chance or two.
Good man, Nahealai.
Challenge for someone in the next draft, try make that work!
That is very true. If one of us rocked up to a draft with only one DM, no CM in sight, we'd be voted off in no time. (Although, even Leverkusen's formation looks insane)I'm not a huge Makelele fan, I don't like having a limited player anchoring the midfield, it's just a deformation I've grown used to.
That said, if in drafts you could get away with what Real could get away with on the back of Makelele...
We would all be going "if Makelele picks up Bastürk, who is on Ballack? Zidane? And the White Brazilian is tearing a new one into Solari".
Didn't work like that though.
Challenge for someone in the next draft, try make that work!
It was pretty top-heavy from Real and they pretty much lost the midfield during the second half. In saying that, Solari was more pinched than the formation graphic suggests, allowing Carlos to charge on and helping Makelele to anchor the midfield, also allowing Figo freedom on the other flank.I'm not a huge Makelele fan, I don't like having a limited player anchoring the midfield, it's just a deformation I've grown used to.
That said, if in drafts you could get away with what Real could get away with on the back of Makelele...
We would all be going "if Makelele picks up Bastürk, who is on Ballack? Zidane? And the White Brazilian is tearing a new one into Solari".
Didn't work like that though.
Good luck with that
.I opted for a draw here, so I won't vote. I like TITO's team more, the style, the cohesion. But Pol has the perfect individuals to counter the threat, so I'd say most of the time, both defenses nullify the attacks and someone flukes a goal. No idea, who's more likely to do that.
Oh and Brian Laudrup must have been really special while playing for the Rangers, because Gio clearly rates him on a different level than I do. I wasn't that impressed with him during his time at Bayern and the following two years in Italy, didn't really follow his career after that, but from what I've seen his performances at the Euro in '92 were clearly above his normal level. Maybe I'm harsh on him, I don't know. I can't see him deciding the game here, even though attacks through him could be the key to unlock TITO's defense.
Hey Pol.
It is an excellent match-up. I love your back 4. And in fairness I also really like Eto'o even though I bracketed him with Bale etc earlier. That was harsh but when there's two teams like this, you got to be picky.
Chuffed with the current score but long way to go yet. Thinking a Suarez sub later, just to keep that back 6 on their toes.
One guy I've not really mentioned much so far is Vieira.
An incredible athlete. Strong, powerful, technically sound, driven. He won three Premier Leagues at a time when the great Utd side of the late 90s and early 00s were around. 4 Serie A titles. 107 caps for France. A World Cup and a Euro's. Basically, a monster midfielder, up there with Keane. With Scholes next to him, it is a match made in heaven.
I think Vieira's driving runs could prove a big issue for Pol's side. This is what I like about my side so much now, there is danger from everywhere. Not just up front, but from both midfielders, both wide men and Cafu on the right.
It is an excellent match-up. I love your back 4. And in fairness I also really like Eto'o even though I bracketed him with Bale etc earlier. That was harsh but when there's two teams like this, you got to be picky.
Chuffed with the current score but long way to go yet. Thinking a Suarez sub later, just to keep that back 6 on their toes.
One guy I've not really mentioned much so far is Vieira.
An incredible athlete. Strong, powerful, technically sound, driven. He won three Premier Leagues at a time when the great Utd side of the late 90s and early 00s were around. 4 Serie A titles. 107 caps for France. A World Cup and a Euro's. Basically, a monster midfielder, up there with Keane. With Scholes next to him, it is a match made in heaven.
I think Vieira's driving runs could prove a big issue for Pol's side. This is what I like about my side so much now, there is danger from everywhere. Not just up front, but from both midfielders, both wide men and Cafu on the right.
The last few drafts have seen a diamond, a magic square, a WM, Stobz's all-in and 433's with false 9s so you never know!Good luck with that
...nah, it's never going to happen is it!
Congrats TITO for going through to the final!
Tough luck, Pol.
Tough luck, Pol.
Cheers!
I have to say Pol was my favorite team after the drafting part, just think he made some bad choices regarding the reinforcements.. I'd be much more thrilled to say Petit with Redondo in midfield and a better winger than either Bale or Laudrup.
Aye, completely agree. Petit/Redondo was fine, the Busquets thing was not necessary and didn't fit the rest of the side.
@Thisistheone, congrats! sorry I was completely offline the entire weekend, best of luck for the final!
Thanks for the votes and feedback. Appreciate the great work by Aldo in setting up a wonderfully run draft
Thanks for the votes and feedback. Appreciate the great work by Aldo in setting up a wonderfully run draft
Thanks Pol, you built a quality side, as always.