Yes. But clearly they don’t like that fact.But isn't the burden of proof on those who claim God exists?
Yes. But clearly they don’t like that fact.But isn't the burden of proof on those who claim God exists?
I can't prove that dragons and unicorns don't exist either, neither do I have to because I didn't claim something with zero evidence of any kind in the first place.I can’t prove that God exists and you can’t prove the opposite.
Which is completely unrelated to religion though, because religion does not present an abstract concept of a potential reality existing beyond our comprehension - which anyway is utterly meaningless to consider until and unless there's any evidence for it as it doesn't change an iota of how we do or need to function - but religion pretty much tries to paint an exact picture of what happens outside our reality, with hard and fast rules set in stone and clear instructions for people to follow it most of it being based on creating divisiveness and little to do with consideration of a higher being.It would be arrogant to think there aren't beings that can comprehend more than 4 dimensions if there are at least 11, I mean, mathematically we can hypothesise hypercubes, on 4 dimensions of space, but we can't see them.
Oh and this, absolutely. Which is what makes people assuming that this imaginary being is by default some kind of a saviour or angel or whatever who is out there to care about them one of the most hilarious things in a space that is utterly baffling in the first place.That doesn't mean it gives any more of a shit about you than you do to a single ant.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I think organised religions are just a way for men (they're all mainly men driven) to rinse the rest of the population financially and for them to have a cushy job.Which is completely unrelated to religion though, because religion does not present an abstract concept of a potential reality existing beyond our comprehension - which anyway is utterly meaningless to consider until and unless there's any evidence for it as it doesn't change an iota of how we do or need to function - but religion pretty much tries to paint an exact picture of what happens outside our reality, with hard and fast rules set in stone and clear instructions for people to follow it most of it being based on creating divisiveness and little to do with consideration of a higher being.
You are suggesting something that is closer to spirituality than religion, but even in that case, having an abstract notion of a higher dimension should never be anything more than academic and have absolutely zero involvement in the current world, or the way anyway "needs" to function till the point we have any info whatsoever about this higher dimension.
Either ways, something as trivial as a "what if" scenario causing actual tragedies in the current world time after another is by far the more relevant matter at hand and there's a long way before any such scenario can ever come anywhere close to the weightage of wellbeing of actual people that do exist.
Religion is the original Ponzi scheme.Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I think organised religions are just a way for men (they're all mainly men driven) to rinse the rest of the population financially and for them to have a cushy job.
I mean, think about it, the biggest, most lavish building in any village, town or city happens to be the one where "God" and his priests live.
I don't interpret that verse in the same way as you, I simply see it as talking more about the better muslims who will take the place of muslims who leave their faith rather than talking about the fate of non-muslims. I dont feel it tells us a lot. I would love to know though when it was revealed and the context, essentially what was going on at the time.All surahs from the Qur'an have what is called tafsir. This is the detail of when it was revealed, what was happening at the time, if it was specific to that time or event or general etc.
As I understand it it basically, in my words, says if they leave the religion leave them to it as Allah will replace them with even better Muslims. Or to that effect.
The problem as I see with translations is that the people who translated them, Ali, pickthall etc were educated people who used bigger, longer words when the actual words can be understood by someone illiterate (but speaks Arabic).
Also there is the issue of words that have general meanings but also have specific meanings that are only that in terms of the religion.
So for example bidah means innovation. However in terms of Qur'an it means innovation in the Deen specifically. So where we pray 4 fardh as ordered you can't pray 5 as that takes it outside Islam. Or Ismailis who reduced the prayer and Qur'an, automatically become non muslim.
Yet generally the word is used in the context of innovation in terms of a new idea etc. So you get people who say if bidah is wrong why do you fly or use a computer as they didn't exist in the Prophets time. They use to justify their innovation in the faith.
If that makes sense?
Jesus? Never heard of the guy, who is this young upstart?
Brother, yes we are all brothers essentially, it's encouraging to see you are engaging and trying to learn. But if I may nitpick with the bolded part if you have only just realised what tafsir means then you are a very long way away from being able to claim about contradictions in a book you seem to know very little about.I don't interpret that verse in the same way as you, I simply see it as talking more about the better muslims who will take the place of muslims who leave their faith rather than talking about the fate of non-muslims. I dont feel it tells us a lot. I would love to know though when it was revealed and the context, essentially what was going on at the time.
You could have gone with "Let there be no compulsion in religion" though.
However the Quran in my opinon is full of contradictions, like many religious books. Thank you for learning me this word tafsir. Could you tell me what is the time and context for this verse?
" Make ye no excuses: ye have rejected Faith after ye had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for that they are in sin." surah 9:66
No it's more to do with me not speaking Arabic and hence learning an Arabic word and its meaning in this context. When I talk of contradictions, I could talk about Allah constantly being called the most merciful etc and then the constant talk of the fire and punishment Allah has prepared for unbelievers.Brother, yes we are all brothers essentially, it's encouraging to see you are engaging and trying to learn. But if I may nitpick with the bolded part if you have only just realised what tafsir means then you are a very long way away from being able to claim about contradictions in a book you seem to know very little about.
However, if it's your opinion (as you have stated) then obviously that's fine however unlearned it may be.
This is a discussion forum. If you don't to want discuss why bother with this thread?I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion. Whether you think its true or not, why try to question others beliefs or cast doubt over them? Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.
The same goes for people of religion who find it's their duty to preach to people who have no affiliation or interest in their religion. Like all those anti gay and anti abortion people. OK cool, according to your scripture it's against gods wishes or whatever. But you should still respect other people's choices and lifestyles and try to be a nice understanding person. Just like most of those people respect your religions and dont try and challenge your views.
Moving away from the whole truth aspect of religion and whether it is fact or fiction.
I do personally find religion is good for bringing communities together and acting as a central hub in different areas. I think as I've grown older I've also grown to learn that it's alot more difficult to join clubs and make friends as you age. So I can see why alot of people maybe turn to religion because they have that open door policy for all.
I also feel that being part of a church or religion brings a sense of togetherness and community. From children through to pensioners most churches have a variety of youth clubs, summer schemes, pensioners clubs and outreach programmes for the most vulnerable.
Not sure where I'm going with this. But not all religions are bad and I feel that the amount of support which they offer to the young, elderly, lonely and vulnerable is massively underestimated too.
The issue is more with the extremists within each religion rather than the religions themselves.
BTW I'm not of any religion myself and don't attend any religious gatherings either.
Because religion has been used, in every age on record, as an excuse to persecute, discriminate and go to war against huge sways of society, like women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals and trans people.I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion. Whether you think its true or not, why try to question others beliefs or cast doubt over them? Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.
The same goes for people of religion who find it's their duty to preach to people who have no affiliation or interest in their religion. Like all those anti gay and anti abortion people. OK cool, according to your scripture it's against gods wishes or whatever. But you should still respect other people's choices and lifestyles and try to be a nice understanding person. Just like most of those people respect your religions and dont try and challenge your views.
Moving away from the whole truth aspect of religion and whether it is fact or fiction.
I do personally find religion is good for bringing communities together and acting as a central hub in different areas. I think as I've grown older I've also grown to learn that it's alot more difficult to join clubs and make friends as you age. So I can see why alot of people maybe turn to religion because they have that open door policy for all.
I also feel that being part of a church or religion brings a sense of togetherness and community. From children through to pensioners most churches have a variety of youth clubs, summer schemes, pensioners clubs and outreach programmes for the most vulnerable.
Not sure where I'm going with this. But not all religions are bad and I feel that the amount of support which they offer to the young, elderly, lonely and vulnerable is massively underestimated too.
The issue is more with the extremists within each religion rather than the religions themselves.
BTW I'm not of any religion myself and don't attend any religious gatherings either.
Religion has also been used to commit genocide against other religions.Because religion has been used, in every age on record, as an excuse to persecute, discriminate and go to war against huge sways of society, like women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals and trans people.
This central hub does not have to be a religious building, which as I mentioned happen to be the most lavish place in the community, where men live. Early Christians banned outdoor religious gathering because they lost out financially. If you want to meet your community, do a favour for your neighbour, you don't have to go to some buildong and chant words together.
And as for an open door, sorry mate, I haven't seen a single religious organization with an open door policy. They might profess it, but they don't.
The point that you're missing is that if you're genuinely interested in learning (and I think it's clear that you're not), you would have some idea what the term tafsir means, as it's a pretty central avenue to understanding the Qu'ran.No it's more to do with me not speaking Arabic and hence learning an Arabic word and its meaning in this context. When I talk of contradictions, I could talk about Allah constantly being called the most merciful etc and then the constant talk of the fire and punishment Allah has prepared for unbelievers.
That's a really simple one which repeats itself over and over.
Pretty much what it was designed for, look back and Caanan and how Yewha became the prime God over ElReligion has also been used to commit genocide against other religions.
We are discussing the Quran on the point of apostacy. The surah Roane mentioned had no context and is very brief. If he can explain the context, I would like to know that. There is at the moment not much more than I'm looking than that with my discussion with them.The point that you're missing is that if you're genuinely interested in learning (and I think it's clear that you're not), you would have some idea what the term tafsir means, as it's a pretty central avenue to understanding the Qu'ran.
What @Roane and @Dumbstar are having to deal with however is you copy pasting verses and opinions from websites, devoid of context and expecting an answer. But, the question is - what's the point? Your understanding is so limited, it doesn't seem like you're up for discussing or understanding and you're more concerned with point scoring.
@Roane has answered this though - on the last page and to another poster separately.We are discussing the Quran on the point of apostacy. The surah Roane mentioned had no context and is very brief. If he can explain the context, I would like to know that. There is at the moment not much more than I'm looking than that with my discussion with them.
Commentary on religious scripture is nothing new, I just said that I didn't know Arabic word and its meaning.
You mean, apart from watching countless people die or suffer because of it on a daily basis?I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion
Yeah just like the completely sane peaceful and harmless guy a couple of pages back who was casually beating his wife for cutting their daughters hair and making her look "more like a lesbian" which goes against his religious beliefs? If you haven't a clue the amount of atrocities that are born from these texts and go on both inside and outside people's homes just do some research.Just leave them be if it brings them comfort and they're causing no bother.
How would you know what’s sufficient? What’s the barometer?No not the verse we were discussing suffiently.
Providing the historical context and timing at least. It's a surah that tells you nothing apart from the fact that Allah will replace apostates with better Muslims and that's it. It's very short and tells you very little.How would you know what’s sufficient? What’s the barometer?
I don't know why non religious people get so hot and bothered about religion
Like all those anti gay and anti abortion people
You're getting mixed up between the Surah - in this case Surah 5, "Al-Ma'idah" - and the verses (Ayat) - which comprise it. You can't take one short ayah in isolation like that, it must be read and understood in the context the ayat that precede and follow it, and more broadly in the context of the Surah itself.Providing the historical context and timing at least. It's a surah that tells you nothing apart from the fact that Allah will replace apostates with better Muslims and that's it. It's very short and tells you very little.
Well that's what Roane quoted. I take your point though.You're getting mixed up between the Surah - in this case Surah 5, "Al-Ma'idah" - and the verses (Ayat) - which comprise it. You can't take one short ayah in isolation like that, it must be read and understood in the context the ayat that precede and follow it, and more broadly in the context of the Surah itself.
Exactly!Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not religious. I think organised religions are just a way for men (they're all mainly men driven) to rinse the rest of the population financially and for them to have a cushy job.
I mean, think about it, the biggest, most lavish building in any village, town or city happens to be the one where "God" and his priests live.
Yes, really.Not really
As the Qur'an says you believe what you believe I believe what I believe, you won't believe what I believe and I won't believe what you believe, to you your way to me mine
For what it's worth, this is how Muhammad Asad who I mentioned above introduces Surah 5:Well that's what Roane quoted. I take your point though.
Very much this in evangelical dominated parts of the US as well.Religion is not a personal affair, it is a community affair, and the leaders of religion have the power to influence the lives of others.
Of course! That's the point. That's one of the main goals of religion everywhere. For any religion, at any time. In Greece, there are many writers today that deride the West because "the domination of individuality has destroyed the community" (Orthodox Christians are much closer to Muslims in many ideas).Very much this in evangelical dominated parts of the US as well.
I think many are fed up with how religion affects our lives, look at things like abortion in the US.Why atheists are so aggressive and think all other people are dumb? May be because they are atheists?
I highly doubt Trump is religious, i think he's just using it because he knows that's where he can pull most voters.Donald Trump: 'I could shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters'
Trump is a con artist. Muhammad was a con artist.I highly doubt Trump is religious, i think he's just using it because he knows that's where he can pull most voters.
If he in fact is very religious, he's a shit one