Kaka I believe is also a poor remake of Boniek. Boniek primarily was a side attacker, able to operate on both wings, overloading whichever flank he is required to work on. He was also known for his defensive stamina and protecting the full back. Kaka is definitely not that player, yes he is fast and he is a good dribbler but he is not I would chose for either for a winger role or a hard working role. Di Maria, Sanchez, Bale players who are fast and able to operate on both side dragging defenders to wide areas would have been a much better fit.
Remake Draft R16 | Downcast vs Tuppet
- Thread starter Joga Bonito
- Start date
I have explained my choices in details. I deeply think I have found the right compromise between the attacking skills & playmaking skills (including deep-lying skills) of Platini.
You can't sum up one of the greatest offensive players in the History of the game in a few stats.
A game lasts more than 90 minutes & Platini doesn't spend most of his time in the penalty area, not to mention the fact you have to take into account the 'off the ball' aspect.
Platini was the Super Star but not a 'Diva': I have recently discovered he had a very strong team spirit and that once again he was all over the pitch. He is more than a brilliant attacking midfielder.
Xavi used to play for very dominating teams so it is hard to find compilations of his 'crazy tackles'. In reality, his positioning sense is one of his biggest assets.
It would be an easy task for me to depreciate some picks like Pirlo & Luis Suarez but I wouldn't do that because I think it is up to the voters and the draft committee to intervene impartially.
I am here to present the Zona Mista tactical system, not to write grotesque, unsound & weak arguments about the opposing team.
You can't sum up one of the greatest offensive players in the History of the game in a few stats.
A game lasts more than 90 minutes & Platini doesn't spend most of his time in the penalty area, not to mention the fact you have to take into account the 'off the ball' aspect.
Platini was the Super Star but not a 'Diva': I have recently discovered he had a very strong team spirit and that once again he was all over the pitch. He is more than a brilliant attacking midfielder.
Xavi used to play for very dominating teams so it is hard to find compilations of his 'crazy tackles'. In reality, his positioning sense is one of his biggest assets.
It would be an easy task for me to depreciate some picks like Pirlo & Luis Suarez but I wouldn't do that because I think it is up to the voters and the draft committee to intervene impartially.
I am here to present the Zona Mista tactical system, not to write grotesque, unsound & weak arguments about the opposing team.
Here are a few uses of Boniek in previous drafts ( I would not chose Kaka for these roles) -
@Tuppet
The starting point of the draft is one sentence wrote by the committe draft "Downcast please replicate the following tactical system: Zona Mista"
And then you come with this picture with Boniek on the right (like he did play with Poland BTW)
Ridiculous. Cheers
The starting point of the draft is one sentence wrote by the committe draft "Downcast please replicate the following tactical system: Zona Mista"
And then you come with this picture with Boniek on the right (like he did play with Poland BTW)
Ridiculous. Cheers
Even @VivaJanuzaj was more reasonable 
Mate I am sorry if you find arguments grotesque or ridiculous but my point was exactly that you are not replicating the tactical system. The system where Platini was the top scorer and Boniek runs rampant on wings, working very hard and making space for Platini. While you have players who play totally differently. Kaka is much more of a central player and Xavi does not come close to Platini's influence on opposition box. I don't even know where the "crazy tackles" thing came from in your Xavi comment. I have tried to give stats, player's videos, various quotes etc, I am not sure why you think my arguments are unsound.
Lighten up, you are winning anyway
Winning or not is the same for me now. Matuidi-Riquelme are ejected so I am globally satisfied with the recreation: job is done.
I have watched:
- the entire game between Juve & Hambourg: final of the European Cup
- the 1st half of As Roma-Juve (Serie A)
- all the goals scored by Boniek, Bettega & Rossi in 82/83
If you really want to understand my choices, you have 2 options:
1st option: read my posts
2nd option: watch some games
I will be nice so I will explain you some things:
Free-Role Attacker : Attacking Midfielders who operate the game in the edge of the field a lot more often than central area. Example: Boniek, Ronaldinho
Side-Midfielder : Players base on side midfield area to cross the ball. Example: Pirès in a 4-4-2 system, Beckham, Donadoni
Winger : Players always go forward to operate the game at edge of the field. Example: Ribéry, Robben
Wing-Forwarder : Players between winger and forward in 4-3-3 system but they are generally greater as winger than central forward but not always. Example: Eto'o/Bettega here
I have watched:
- the entire game between Juve & Hambourg: final of the European Cup
- the 1st half of As Roma-Juve (Serie A)
- all the goals scored by Boniek, Bettega & Rossi in 82/83
If you really want to understand my choices, you have 2 options:
1st option: read my posts
2nd option: watch some games
I will be nice so I will explain you some things:
Free-Role Attacker : Attacking Midfielders who operate the game in the edge of the field a lot more often than central area. Example: Boniek, Ronaldinho
Side-Midfielder : Players base on side midfield area to cross the ball. Example: Pirès in a 4-4-2 system, Beckham, Donadoni
Winger : Players always go forward to operate the game at edge of the field. Example: Ribéry, Robben
Wing-Forwarder : Players between winger and forward in 4-3-3 system but they are generally greater as winger than central forward but not always. Example: Eto'o/Bettega here
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Interesting debate so far from both managers.Here are a few uses of Boniek in previous drafts ( I would not chose Kaka for these roles) -
On this part Boniek played across the front line and would often play as more of a support striker, so I don't think it's that relevant that Antohan decided to use him on the left wing.
When Boniek helped Poland finishing 3rd in the World Cup in '82 I think he actually plays a central #10 role at times in a 3-5-2 of sorts behind two other forwards. I can't find anything on the internet that shows the system so I could be wrong there, but IIRC he gets a nice assist from this position in the final vs France.
He was a right-winger with Poland in 1982
http://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.fr/2014/12/poland.htmlhttp://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.fr/2014/12/poland.html
And Kaka during the WC 2006? On the right. And Kaka with Milan? In the centre. So Kaka is the definition of a player able to play the role of a Seconda punta in a Zona Mista configuration.
And Ronaldinho during the WC 2002?
#10, but a Brazilian #10 with 7 defensive players behind so that he hasn't to defend. Of course, he is the welcome to play the Boniek role
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Kaka - Shooting
Kaka on the left side
Kaka on the left side
He was a right-winger with Poland in 1982
http://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.fr/2014/12/poland.htmlhttp://soccerfootballwhatever.blogspot.fr/2014/12/poland.html
Not too sure what you're on about here but that isn't the line up for Poland in 1982. You should re-read that blog.
Kazi Deyna and Lubanski had both retired from the national side by then.
Well the point I was trying to put across (sadly not very successfully) was the defensive sturdiness and off the ball work rate of Boniek, that would enable him to play such a formation as left mid. Its just Kaka is not renowned for his off the ball contribution in the way Boniek was. A secondary point was that Kaka was always much more of a central player, while Boniek was far more comfortable on the sides. His connection with Platini is widely sited as the reason of the Juve's golden era. He was much more selfless creator helping Platini winning many top scorer trophies.
Also off topic, I was just checking Platini's scoring record for national team. Holy cow, 42 goals in 71 games !! Forget about Xavi, that is a better goal scoring ratio than Kaka, Schevchenko, Eto'o or pretty much anyone in the team. You simply can not ignore goal scoring aspect of such a prolific scorer.
That's what I call a spine
Nobody denies the stats of Platini.
France use to have a different tactical system
I have watched a TV reportage about the success of France at the Euro 1984.
Interesting because you learn that a teamate (Tigana or Giresse I don't remember) told him "We don't want you as a deep-lying midfielder who runs with the ball but we need you close the penalty area".
I have the impression his style of play has evolved:
- 82/83:1st year in Italy so he wanted to be all over the pitch
- Afterwards, he has probably focused his game in the attacking 3rd.
In any case, he was sharp.
France use to have a different tactical system
I have watched a TV reportage about the success of France at the Euro 1984.
Interesting because you learn that a teamate (Tigana or Giresse I don't remember) told him "We don't want you as a deep-lying midfielder who runs with the ball but we need you close the penalty area".
I have the impression his style of play has evolved:
- 82/83:1st year in Italy so he wanted to be all over the pitch
- Afterwards, he has probably focused his game in the attacking 3rd.
In any case, he was sharp.
I think you are missing the point a bit mate. No one suggested that you should go for flashier name. The reason why I suggested Ronaldinho is because he can match Platini for playmaking but also goal scoring threat from the middle. In your set up and the 3 positions that I mentioned you are moving the focus and goalscoring threat to the flanks, while in zona mista the main goal scoring threat was Platini coming from deep and running into the box with the 2 wide forwards working for him and freeing space.
At the moment you have Eto'o who much more selfish than his role would suggest, Kaka who is also a very good asset on the wings and can stretch play but not as comfortable there as Boniek and also he'll have to have a excellent work rate on the flank. He has very good work rate and stucks in but when he's more centrally positioned and in a free role to make runs from deep and use his pace.
That's my reasoning behind the team style.
This is essentially what @Tuppet argues too - and I largely agree with it. It's similar to what we saw with the Brazil '82 remake, in the sense that there's a clear shift of balance (who does what - who provides what, from where) compared to the original/blueprint.
You lack a certain amount of something (be it goals or something else) in Player X - but you make up for it (to some degree or other) elsewhere: And that is fine, if the aim is to put a balanced, functional team together. But that, strictly speaking, is not the primary task here.
It has to be a certain kind of balance - not just balance as such. If you deviate too far from what characterized the original team, that's a problem.
Alright its time for Bed and I'll be likely out tomorrow, so I am putting some final thoughts on this game, we have discussed much and if it feels like I am making the same point again and again, then its because I've got only one point against your otherwise excellent team Downcast. But I do think thats a pretty big point and could be a game decider.
In every tactic, the primary source of goals is a very important detail. You can replace some goals here and there, but when its clear that one player (or rather a position) dominated goal scoring for a team for a sustained period of time (3 seasons !!) then replacing his goals from somewhere else would alter the tactic significantly IMO. So just looking at 3 years of Juve domination (1982- 85) goal scoring records -
Platini - 56
Boniek - 14
Paolo Rossi - 23
Bettega (left after 1982 season) - 7
Which helpfully adds up to 100 goals. Now ofcourse there are other players and substitute and such, but just look at that figure and how distorted it is. Xavi is not going to come anywhere near it. This one detail change other player's role in tactics massively. Now even if we agree that Kaka can play in wide positions as good as Boniek (which I don't), he can not not afford to do it. He has to fulfill the lack of goals and thats why he is going to go for score rather than making space. This is again completely different than what was Boniek's role in that Juventus team. Same thing applies to Eto'o and Bettega.
So in my opinion what we have here is an excellent 4-1-2-1-2 (Diamond) kind of formation, and this would play some nice football, unfortunately without one of the most critical element in a goal scoring midfielder, it would not be Zona Mista.
I would say, that I appreciate how hard it is recreating Platini, but I think compromise in goal scoring was a bit much, I would have traded a little less deep lying playmaking to little more influence in attacking third. While no player recreation is perfect, in my team Di Maria is not exactly like Jair or Silva is not exactly like Corso etc, they are playing the same role the players in original tactic played. Di Maria is still a wing forward to hog to right wing. Suarez would still be working hard and scoring a lot. Xavi however is not replicating one of the most important aspect of Platini's game, that is goal scoring.
Finally No hard feelings @Downcast , Win or lose it was a good game.
In every tactic, the primary source of goals is a very important detail. You can replace some goals here and there, but when its clear that one player (or rather a position) dominated goal scoring for a team for a sustained period of time (3 seasons !!) then replacing his goals from somewhere else would alter the tactic significantly IMO. So just looking at 3 years of Juve domination (1982- 85) goal scoring records -
Platini - 56
Boniek - 14
Paolo Rossi - 23
Bettega (left after 1982 season) - 7
Which helpfully adds up to 100 goals. Now ofcourse there are other players and substitute and such, but just look at that figure and how distorted it is. Xavi is not going to come anywhere near it. This one detail change other player's role in tactics massively. Now even if we agree that Kaka can play in wide positions as good as Boniek (which I don't), he can not not afford to do it. He has to fulfill the lack of goals and thats why he is going to go for score rather than making space. This is again completely different than what was Boniek's role in that Juventus team. Same thing applies to Eto'o and Bettega.
So in my opinion what we have here is an excellent 4-1-2-1-2 (Diamond) kind of formation, and this would play some nice football, unfortunately without one of the most critical element in a goal scoring midfielder, it would not be Zona Mista.
I would say, that I appreciate how hard it is recreating Platini, but I think compromise in goal scoring was a bit much, I would have traded a little less deep lying playmaking to little more influence in attacking third. While no player recreation is perfect, in my team Di Maria is not exactly like Jair or Silva is not exactly like Corso etc, they are playing the same role the players in original tactic played. Di Maria is still a wing forward to hog to right wing. Suarez would still be working hard and scoring a lot. Xavi however is not replicating one of the most important aspect of Platini's game, that is goal scoring.
Finally No hard feelings @Downcast , Win or lose it was a good game.
Sure. In the last draft, I lost against you but did vote for you in the following games. If you win, you only have to change:
- Kanté: not the tactical intelligence/credentials of a Mediano in the middle of the park in a Top Serie A team of the 60s. He is rather a Centrocampista Centrale.
- Di Maria: nothing to do with Jair
I'm not surprised by the repetitive narrative of @Enigma_87 : a fair return following the 'Three League drafts' and @Chesterlestreet is another story
I want a lively game so I am satisfied.
1. What are the credentials of Ronaldinho in a 100% similar tactical system?
2. Bettega is on the right and used to be the top scorer of the Serie A: so I have to choose someone uncapable to score?
3. You fantasize about the style of play of the Juve. There are no typical wingers as you can see in Munich or Madrid nowadays. For instance, if you look at the goals scored by Platini, a few goals match with your imagination. Moreover, all the opposing teams generally used a pretty similar tactical system in the early 80s since the victory of Italy at the WC 1982: meaning a high density of players in the penalty area. You ignore the characteristics of Italian football in the 80s: very low number of goals scored per game, refereeing, the battle midfield in an Italian context... A regista needs specific mental qualities and tactical discipline/intelligence.
4. Eto'o has a big ego but I invite you to watch the 2 games against Barcelona - SF of the Champions League 2009/10 - or to read articles especially about the 2nd leg. If you watch the European Cup final against Hambourg, Bettega looked more selfish IMHO: no defensive contribution + he deserted the right wing.
5. If you say 'Kaka was more centrally positioned', then let me say 'Ronaldinho was positionnaly on the left in a 4-1-2-3 system with Barcelona' or 'Ronnie played as a #10 in a 4-3-1-2 system with Brazil (7 pure defensive players to support 1 #10 and 2 CF). Caricatural to say 'Kaka has only pace and nothing else'. Very good news to have Kaka able to play in the Central area because it is part of the ZM philosophy. Look at the final of the European Cup: I will post pictures of Boniek in the first 15 first minutes of the game.
6. In the previous posts, you suggestions were funny ' I advise Iniesta but he doesn't score' or 'I advise Ronaldinho but no work rate'. Otherwise, I am OK to say Totti was a better option.
Bettega scored 8 goals - all competitions in 82/83 - so I should have chosen someone who used to score less than 8 goals per year?
Xavi scored 15 goals - all competitions in 2011/12 without the penalties - against 28 goals for Platini in 82/83. Not so bad for a central offensive midfielder nowadays who has credentials in a role similar to Platini, which is not the case of Ronaldinho. What are the names of the modern offensive midfielders (so please no support strikers) who played in a similar tactical system and score more than 25 goals?
I just find superficial to focus only on stats.
Why don't you offer stats regarding the assists? Maybe assists and exceptional passing skills don't matter.
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To be fair, I have started to be unreasonable because in my write-up, I wrote some sentences like 'Thiago Silva is not an issue for Neymar' or 'Muller behind a striker: not his best position'
Long forgotten mate. It's all in funTo be fair, I have started to be unreasonable because in my write-up, I wrote some sentences like 'Thiago Silva is not an issue for Neymar' or 'Muller behind a striker: not his best position'
I get that Boniek had a higher workrate and better stamina than Kaka but I don't think it's a significant difference in the context of the comparison. Kaka had a good work rate and mentality himself at Milan and I don't think Boniek was more of a defensive player, they were both attackers.
I also get that Boniek played wider more often than Kaka did, but for me that isn't that relevant. The question is whether Kaka could replicate Bonieks position in Juve's team which IMO he could - no one would say that Boniek played as a winger for Juventus, it was more of a roaming support role which is something Kaka would have done throughout his career.
There are some real similarities to their styles IMO, obviously Boniek and Kaka both had the same explosive pace and dribbling ability but Boniek was also a technical player and only Kaka of the players you have mentioned matches him for actual talent.
Agree on Platini's goals but Downcast was on to a loser here no matter what he did as in my opinion Platini is the hardest player to recreate in the draft - the playmaking heart of the team, one of the best passers of all time and also the teams top scorer. He could have stuck Kaka there (for more goals) but I don't think that Kaka or Ronaldinho were more similar players in terms of their styles.
Also I think the point is whether Xavi could do the role, not whether he actually played that way. Obviously Xavi tikka takka-ing it around the centre circle in Guardiola's Barca lacks any real similarity to Platini's role, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the ability to play more offensively/play in a different set up which he showed at times around 2007-2009. It's definitely no where near a perfect comparison though and he would certainly never hit the same number of goals as Platini, but as I said it's a very tough task.
I've only skimmed through the thread so far but that's a superb reinforcement/upgrade.Why Eto'o on the right? Why do Bettega & Eto'o share with?
- Trapp 'Rossi is my preferred #9 now'
- Mourinho 'Milito is my #9"
- Trappatoni ' I know you were the top scorer of the Serie A in the past'
- Mourinho 'I know you were the top scorer of La Liga in the past'
- Trappatoni 'I have a plan to reach the final of the European Cup: so you have to play on the right but I need you to continue to score'
- Mourinho ' I have a plan to reach & win the Champions League: so you have to play on the right but I need you to continue to score'
The Treble Winning team - Inter VS Bayern Final
The crowning moment
More info on Bettega: The Remake Draft
Like Bettega, my new acquisition was usually used as a centre-forward earlier on in his career, but was also deployed in a more creative or defensive role: essentially as a winger in his later career. He has also been deployed as a wingback against Barcelona in the Nou Camp.
Great game from both managers. Congrats @Tuppet a really well-crafted side. Commiserations @Downcast . Remaking that Juve side's dynamics and esp some of their individuals (Scirea, Platini & Boniek) was always an uphill task, but it was a great effort with your midfield and defense being spot on. The Platini and Boniek role interpretations were always bound to be subjective but it did make for some intriguing discussions.
Cheers.
Please don't worry. I'm satisfied with the outcome because the hard work has been done.
Excellent post as usual
To complete the presentation, I'd say that:
- Buffon instead of Courtois
- Mascherano instead of Senna (Bonini)
- A world-class stopper to replace Tudor (Brio): Vidic, Godin...
- A more aggressive defender able to play as a RB to replace Barzagli (Gentile): let's say Pique or Puyol for instance.
Thanks to some voters and the posters who will recognize themselves.
@MDFC Manager @berbatrick @DWelbz19 @paulscholes18 @Joga Bonito @Panther @Derrick B
- Buffon instead of Courtois
- Mascherano instead of Senna (Bonini)
- A world-class stopper to replace Tudor (Brio): Vidic, Godin...
- A more aggressive defender able to play as a RB to replace Barzagli (Gentile): let's say Pique or Puyol for instance.
Thanks to some voters and the posters who will recognize themselves.
@MDFC Manager @berbatrick @DWelbz19 @paulscholes18 @Joga Bonito @Panther @Derrick B
As per usual I have no idea what you're talking about, or what point you're addressing, so I think we'll just leave it at that.
You pretend not to understand. So, I will repeat my question.
What are the names of the modern offensive midfielders able to play the role of Platini and score more than 25 goals per season?
It's a hard task and I think what most had problems in this draft. Out of the pool I'd say - Ronaldinho, Totti, to an extend Kaka at around 20 goals per season.
Hard luck @Downcast, you got dealt a tough hand in trying to remake probably the most difficult player in Platini. Great effort in both drafting and in match thread though.
The most difficult player is certainly Matthaus! @Šjor Bepo would probably agree with me!
Everyone is happy: you go through and I had nothing new to offer for the rest of the draft.
I don't know well your players but maybe you should reconsider Di Maria (Joaquin Sanchez? Bale?) and Kanté (Mascherano? Cambiasso?)
All the best
That isn't a valid argument.
Everyone knows perfectly well that replacing Platini like-for-like is impossible, and nobody demands this. What you've done is to replace him with a less mobile and less attacking player who doesn't possess anywhere near the same goal threat - it's not a question of 25 goals per season, this is a player who scores less than a goal every ten matches, compared to a player who was the team's main goal threat.
You've shifted the main, direct attacking threat of the team from the Platini role to players who often operated as foils for Platini.
That doesn't mean Xavi is a horrible, completely hopeless choice - he does possess several qualities that are relevant, I haven't seen anyone deny this and I sure as hell haven't denied it myself: My post, the one you responded to by talking about Bettega and demanding statistics, was a general remark agreeing with some comments about the overall balance (blueprint versus remake) of your attack. It didn't even mention Platini or Xavi in particular.
You're coming across as overly sensitive and defensive here, in my opinion. But I was overly crass in my response too, so I apologize for that.