Remake Draft R16 | harms vs mazhar

Please vote for the better remake of the classical set-up


  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,243
Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as remakes of classic teams, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in re-creating both the individual roles and the overall functionality of the original. THIS IS NOT A FANTASY MATCH BETWEEN TWO SIDES, but rather a comparison of remakes.

Please feel free to tag the managers if you require more information about their set-ups/players etc.


Team harms:
Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up


Guardiola:

Few teams, among all I have seen play, have seduced me than that of Ajax under Van Gaal. The ease of creating the game behind the fast side of players and the way they pass the ball to the feet through the spaces. This Ajax could solve completely fantastically all "one-against-one" that can exist in a game. In both attack and defence. They assume the risk that a team can take. This was something that surprised me, which astonished me. Positional discipline: Possession of the ball as the basic idea, the game in constant support. Movements... And they did it all as simple as a sublime way. They were able to do perfectly is what I believe that a football team must always do. Van Gaal's Ajax gave football lessons to those who were familiar with the game


Van Gaal:

It's a footballing philosophy more than a system. A system depends on the players you have. I played 4-3-3 with Ajax, 2-3-2-3 with Barcelona and I can play 4-4-2 with AZ. I'm flexible. The philosophy stays the same though. I don't think that you can adapt it to every possible situation. Preparing your tactical formation is essential. Each player needs to know where he has to be, and that is why there needs to be mutual understanding because you need absolute discipline. This is a sport played by 22 men, and there are 11 opponents out there playing as a team. Each individual needs to know who he has to beat and be there to support his team-mates.


Style - Possession, Wing-Play, forward runs by central players


That Ajax team had more in common with Pep’s Bayern than with Van Gaal’s United of the last two years. The basis was the same - a possession based system with a precise structure, which was capable of transforming into different shapes during the game (as Van Gaal himself said, formation doesn’t really matter, the philosophy does) while maintaining the spatial control at all times. Without a doubt, total football of the 70’s influenced this team massively, but Michels created a controlled chaos on the pitch, while every movement and combination in Van Gaal’s team was invented and nurtured by him personally. The big clash of Cruyff’s and Van Gaal’s philosophies comes mainly from this distinction. And while at their best Van Gaal’s and Pep’s teams looked like a naturally fluid energy flows, they both had a very strict system based on manager’s ideas underneath the fancy dressing.


Defense

Defensive Line - High
Marking - Zonal
Off the ball - Aggressive closing down, creating numerical advantages
On the ball - Direct passing, late runs from De Boer/Abidal and Blind/Badstuber, stretching the defensive line

Louis van Gaal’s Ajax side operated with Danny Blind as a sweeper. Pre-historic as it seems today, playing a sweeper helped negate most opponent’s threat in the attacking third. With 2 forwards being picked up by Reizeger and the stouter de Boer brother – this left Blind to pick up stray balls, runs from deep and anything the opposition threw at him. It’s hard to distinguish defence from midfield - Rijkaard often dropped back to the centre back position, Blind and de Boer were free to join the attack etc. Obviously, with such proactive possession and pressing tactic Ajax played with a higher than usual defensive line, although they were able to regroup and to sustain pressure if needed. Fluid system, along with the cover from 2 box-to-box midfielders allowed Ajax to always maintain numerical advantage in defense


Midfield

Ajax basically had a fluid diamond in midfield - Litmanen as a number 10, Davids and one of Seedorf or R. De Boer as box-to-box midfielders and the great Rijkaard connecting defence and midfield from his hybrid position.

While facing a pair of dangerous wingers, Ajax usually responded by getting Davids and R. De Boer/Seedorf to track the wingers back, and did so wonderfully. When they did this, Jari Litmanen dropped deeper to fill in the central midfield so the deeper lying Frank Rijkaard was not outnumbered in the middle of the field.

The use of Davids and de Boer/Seedorf in the group game against AC Milan in 1995 is interesting too. As well as having defensive responsibilities, they were instructed to run from deep to connect with the wingers and forwards. It was their late runs that were most dangerous to penetrate the Milan high-line in the first-half. To do this, both Davids and de Boer had to have superb tactical understanding and discipline, not to mention supreme physical fitness. The combination of quick passing and runs from deep were a constant menace for the Milan back-line. The implication of this was the high-line played, used to combat the threat of Litmanen, dropped deeper and deeper to negate the threat of these quick triangles through the midfield.

Ajax were always stretching the Rossoneri defence with Overmars and George always looking to stay wide in the build-up of moves. It was therefore unsurprising that either Davids or de Boer would be the one to break the deadlock in this game.


Attack

Again, the separation of midfield and attack is nominal - box-to-box midfielders often were the ones who got at the end of Litmanen’s through-balls for example. Litmanen himself scored lots and can be seen either as a midfielder or as a shadow striker. But let’s just say that the front trio of Overmars - Kluivert (R. de Boer) - George was the attacking unit. Wingers in Van Gaal’s system play a very strict role - their main task is to provide width and to create space for their teammates by stretching the opposition’s defence. Although there was a difference between the flanks - left-sided winger was right-footed and sometimes was allowed to cut inside, while on the right side in George we saw a more conventional right-footed winger. It probably had something to do with the fullbacks - F. de Boer supported attack more often than Reizeger, which gave Overmars more freedom on the pitch.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,243
Player Roles

Valdes (Van der Sar) - Sweeper keeper, responsible for initiating attacks with accurate passing

Abidal (F. de Boer) - Left back, equally capable of moving to the LCB position or to support attack on the wing. Secondary playmaker - he has great ball-playing skills and accurate passing

Badstuber (Blind) - Sweeper. Ball-playing defender, a main playmaker who can burst forward when the situation allows it

Darmian (Reiziger) - Defensive right back. A very simple role, he rarely supports his winger in the attacking phase, mostly staying behind, keeping the defending shape in tact

J. Martinez (Rijkaard) - One of the toughest players to recreate. A unique blend of physicality and ball-playing skills made Rijkaard arguably the greatest defensive midfielder in history. Martinez, while being an inferior player, possesses a lot of similar qualities, which were highlighted in Bayern’s treble winning season. Equally at ease in midfield an defence, he is surprisingly technical for a guy of his size. Just watch the demolition of Barcelona, where Martinez was the best player over the two ties, completely nullifying Iniesta and providing a great foundation for the team with his slick dribbling and playmaking

Essien (Davids) - One of the easiest choices for me. A scary enforcer with endless energy and somehow underrated ball-playing skills, capable of covering the defence and of joining the attack and of scoring the occasional screamer

Yay Toure (Seedorf) - Toure is one of the most complete players of the last decade, also capable of dominating the opposition with his physicality (especially at his early days in England) and possessing absolutely world-class passing, shooting and ball-carrying ability. His role is very similar to Essien/Davids one, but he is more creative and inventive with his passing, while Darmian/Reiziger’s defensive approach allows him to have more freedom on the pitch

Thomas Müller (Litmanen) - Both played for LVG and both were highly praised by him. He loves his №10’s, who need to understand the game better than anyone on the pitch, to have outstanding spatial awareness and to marry the instincts of a striker with hard-work of a midfielder. They are not playmakers.

Walcott (Overmans) - Very similar players while playing on the left. Both plays like inverted wingers (they are right-footed), even though Van Gaal’s system requires them to stay on the wing and to stretch the opposition’s defence more often than to cut inside. Their main attributes are their outstanding speed (both are among the fastest players in the history of the game) and decent dribbling skills. It’s hardly an argument that Walcott is an inferior player to the Dutchman, but stylistically, while playing on the left, they are very much alike

Kluivert (Kluivert) - This choice doesn’t require explanations, does it? A complete №9, great finishing, movement and work ethics, one of my favorite strikers of that era

Kuba (Finidi George) - He is also restricted to the wing, his main task is to keep the attacking shape and to stretch the opposition defence. A little more conservative when compared to his counterpart on the left, he is right-footed, strong, fast and hardworking. My first thought when I anted to replicate George was Kanchelskis, who isn’t available, sadly, so I picked the next best thing

Specific Tactical Manoeuvres






Ajax 1995 - LVG (3-3-1-3)................................................................/...................................harms Modern Remake
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,243
Team mazhar13/P-Nut0712:
Philosophy/Ideology of the Tactical Setup

Jogo bonito, the beautiful game, was what Brazil 1982 epitomised. Tele Santana wanted his teams to attack with freedom and expression, to play the sport of football with skill, panache, and elegance. He did not want his teams to use roughhousing tactics, to break up the play at every opportunity, or to keep the ball at the back for long periods of time. He wanted his teams to move the ball forward quickly, either with short or long passes. His teams would seek to outskill, outpass, and outsmart the opposition with fluid movement and creative passing. There was no such thing as fixed positions in Tele Santana's Brazil 1982 team. Players were free to roam around wherever they wanted to as long as the team covered all of the pitch. Tele Santana's Brazil 1982 is the epitome of the "you score 2, we'll score 3" approach. They were hungry for goals, and they never stopped looking for them until the referee decided to stop the match.

Overall setup

Style of play
: direct, free-flowing, fluid attacking football, making use of all areas of the pitch and ways to open up opponents
Defensive line: high
Marking: zonal
Off the ball: close down the opponents quickly, and press them when they get on the ball. Drop back if the opponents sustain possession for several seconds. Full backs press the opposing wingers quickly and immediately.
On the ball: jogo bonito



Defence

The defence will consist of a stopper-sweeper combination in the middle along with attacking full backs (basically wing backs). Both central defenders are very strong in the air and excellent aerial threats going forward. Both central defenders will drift out wide to cover for a full back who has gone forward.

The sweeper (Luizinho) of the team will have the license to go forward and be involved in attacks though won't do this too frequently. Off the ball, the sweeper will maintain his position in the defence and look to intercept passes or clear balls entering the box.

The stopper (Oscar) will seek to close down attacking players quickly and win the ball off of them before they settle. He will press up on the opposing players and unsettle them with his aggression and physicality.

Midfield

The midfielders will look to get on the ball and get the attacking players/wing backs involved in the build-up and chance creation. They will interchange positions with each other, but the deeper midfielders will look to start off attacks and establish control of the game. The deeper midfielders will look to make forward runs into spaces whenever they can, particularly if an attacking midfielder drops back or if players in the final third need more options. They are encouraged to take long shots whenever needed and make runs into the box as well.

The attacking midfielders have total freedom in their game to go wherever they want and do whatever they want. They can go wide, drop back, go high up the pitch, and be wherever they feel is best for the team in that situation. However, one of the attacking midfielders will be more direct and attacking, whilst the other one will be the more creative and playmaking type, providing more support for the more direct attacking midfielder.

Attack

The left-sided forward will be a left winger who will take over the left flank and stretch opposition defences with his dribbling, pace, and movement. The other forward (striker) will be the target man in the team though not a static, purely physical one. The striker will seek to occupy defenders with his strength and skill, dragging them around laterally and vertically. This striker will still go for goal, but in the build-up, the striker can drop back and create spaces for the midfielders as well.
 

mazhar13

Kermit Inc. 2022
Scout
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
36,877
Location
Toronto, ON, Canada
Player Roles
GK
: Julio Cesar (Waldir Peres) - Waldir Peres was no sweeper keeper and was as traditional a keeper as you would think. He was big, strong in the air, showed good reflexes, and possessed a sensible if slightly conservative sense of when to come out to stop a through pass. Julio Cesar is almost a replica of Waldir Peres in that sense as he himself is strong in the air, possessed good reflexes, and was conservative when compared to the sweeper keepers of today's times.

RWB: Maicon (Leandro) - Honestly, the only difference between these two is that Maicon has a darker skin colour than Leandro. Other than that, their similarities are uncanny. Both loved to bomb forward and become right wingers whenever they could. Both were fast, tall, and solid man markers. Both were good dribblers and crossers of the ball. Finally, both had a strong shot on them, with Maicon an upgrade on Leandro in that regard.

CB (Stopper): Sokratis Papastathopoulos (Oscar) - Oscar was quite a strong and aggressive man marker who always looked to tackle the ball from his opponent and win it as soon as possible. His aerial ability was also very good and made him a set piece threat on the other end. Sokratis also possesses similar qualities, showing aerial prowess, strong tackling, and an aggression to unsettle many attacking players.

CB (Sweeper): Luisao (Luizinho) - Now this is a player who I enjoyed watching at Benfica. Luisao and Luizinho are quite similar in their style and approach. Both are more conservative in their defending. Both are good readers of the game who are always at the right place at the right time. Both are strong in the air and skillful on the ball. Both like to go forward and try to score goals though aren't as cavalier as someone like Lucio. Both are also good passers of the ball and are able to play it out of the back, and both are used to playing in high lines, with Lucio having done so under Jorge Jesus in Benfica.

LWB: Giovanni Van Bronckhorst (Junior) - Junior himself is a difficult player to replicate as he was as strong a midfielder as he was a full back. However, Van Bronckhorst is one such player. Equally comfortable in midfield as he is at left back, he showed a similar set of qualities to Junior. Van Bronckhorst always wanted to get forward and be involved in attacks. Whilst Junior had a sweet right foot on him, Gio has a strong left foot on him that he has used to great effect.

DM (Destroyer): Claudio Marchisio (Toninho Cerezo) - Toninho was a strong defensive midfielder with a strong tackle and good defensive positioning. On the ball, he was a skillful passer who possessed the vision to spot the wingers and other players in dangerous attacking positions. One of Toninho's biggest traits is that he's tireless, never looking like he lost his breath in the match. Marchisio's profile reads similarly to Toninho's in that aspect. Even though Marchisio played farther forward in the midfield on several occasions, his best years came when he was a box-to-box midfielder providing strong defensive support to Pirlo and contributing to Juventus' attacks with his passing, dribbling, and goals.

DM (Box-to-Box Playmaker): Ivan Rakitic (Paulo Roberto Falcao) - The more and more I watch Rakitic play, the more I see similarities between him and Falcao. Both are skillful on the ball. Both want to be involved in the build-up play. Both are happy to defend and do some of the dirty work. Both love to go forward and create chances as well as finish them off. Both are also tireless midfielders who can last the whole game and not drop a level or two in their quality. Cazorla is also another option for this role with his excellent playmaking ability combined with his defensive work rate.

AM (Creative Free Role): Paul Pogba (Socrates) - Whilst Socrates did play a free role in Brazil 1982, he was the more creative, deep-lying free role player, dropping deep and getting on the ball in order to supply others. Both Pogba and Socrates are tall, lanky figures who have the ball magnetized to their feet. Both are capable of spotting passes most footballers normally can't spot. Both are also comfortable out wide where their dribbling skills can come to the fore. Ultimately, though, both are perfect foils for more direct attacking players in their teams.

AM (Direct Free Role): Kevin de Bruyne (Zico) - Zico was the focal point of the Brazil 1982 team. He was their main creative threat, their main flair player, and their main goalscorer, even though Brazil possessed several different goalscorers. Similarly, Kevin de Bruyne was/is such a player for Wolfsburg, Manchester City, and Belgium. Both are players who wow you with their audacious passing, dribbling, and shooting. Both were also quite direct and always looked forward. Neither ever gave a thought to go backwards or sideways when their teams wanted goals. It is this direct nature within de Bruyne that makes him so dangerous and difficult to contain.

LWF (Winger/Wide Forward): Neymar (Eder) - Both Neymar and Eder played on the left wing for Brazil for several years. Whilst Eder possessed a rocket of a left foot, his main qualities included his dribbling, pace, quickness, and finishing ability. Neymar possesses all of them and then some. Even if Neymar does not have Eder's left peg, he still possesses amazing quality in his overall game that makes him an upgrade on Eder in this role. With Neymar on the left, this Brazil 1982 reincarnation has yet another great goalscoring threat that can provide even more options to the likes of de Bruyne and Pogba.

ST (Target Man): Didier Drogba (Serginho) - Drogba is an upgrade to what Serginho offers going forward. Serginho was a strong target man who made it tough for defenders to win the ball off of him with his skill and strength. His aerial threat always concerned opposition defenders, and he allowed his teammates to become greater goal threats with his excellent supporting play. Drogba possesses the same set of skills as well except that he's a better finisher and stronger on the ground and in the air.
 

mazhar13

Kermit Inc. 2022
Scout
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
36,877
Location
Toronto, ON, Canada
I'm off to work right now, but I'll try to contribute a couple of quick points soon before my work period begins.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Who is who in Marchisio - Rakitic pairing? On the formation pic Rakitic seem to emulate Cerezo and Marchisio is looking like Falcao's replacement, while in the write-up it's the other way around?
 

mazhar13

Kermit Inc. 2022
Scout
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
36,877
Location
Toronto, ON, Canada
Hmm...I thought that my current pairing was the other way around. I'm not at home too, so I cannot make an immediate change.

Essentially, though, Marchisio is emulating Toninho, and Rakitic is emulating Falcão.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
I can't say I'm sold on Neymar in that role. I'd rather have him as Zico, for several reasons:

He's close enough in terms of on-the-ball skills.

He's got the star quality (important when re-creating overall “feel”).

He's the most dangerous goal threat in the team (as per what sort of player he normally is).

Eder was much less of a goal threat than Zico *, who was an even more pronounced finisher/goal provider for Brazil than he was at club level: More of a second striker than an offensive midfielder.

De Bruyne ticks some important boxes, no argument there, but he is much less of a goal threat than what you'd ideally want – and it becomes even more obvious with Neymar NOT in the role, a player who can plausibly provide precisely that sort of threat.

It's a balance issue: Either Neymar's a little bit wasted in a role which doesn't require his level of flair or his goal scoring prowess – or Eder becomes the team's attacking focal point (and main goal threat). Neither of which looks right.

* Half the threat in '82, less than that normally (career wise). Zico was close to a 0,7 GPG man for Brazil and the team's top scorer in '82. For context Falcao outscored Eder, while Socrates matched him.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
All I need is for someone to fix my formation graphics because it's so difficult to do this on the mobile...
What's the problem, mate? The formation graphics?

We can fix that - you want the pic to reflect the descriptions in the write-up?
 

Deleted member 101472

Guest
Can't for the life of me envision walcott on the left and playing effectively, minus the goal where he slidetackled his way through the newcastle defence. Happy with the rest of your team though and love the Muller for Litmanen pick
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
De Bruyne ticks some important boxes, no argument there, but he is much less of a goal threat than what you'd ideally want – and it becomes even more obvious with Neymar NOT in the role, a player who can plausibly provide precisely that sort of threat.
He is probably the one I have most problems with - although overall it's a very good recreation, surprisngly so, considering the uniqness of that team. De Bruyne is very direct - that's his main strength, but it's also highlights his main weakness - he isn't that good in tight spaces, he is only good in counter-attacking set-ups with a lot of space to run into; his general play is quite inconsistent. Neymar would've probably be a better choice, like you said
 

Gio

★★★★★★★★
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Messages
20,341
Location
Bonnie Scotland
Supports
Rangers
I'm very taken with Van Bronckhorst as Junior. At his physical pre-injury peak Van Bronckhorst was a left-sided central midfielder and even latterly post-injury he was such an influential outlet for Barcelona and Holland. Less persauded on Neymar as Eder, primarily because Eder drifted from in-to-out to get onto that sledgehammer of a left peg whereas Neymar's individuality would incline him to go out-to-in and onto his stronger right foot. Like Chester I thought he would be Zico here, but De Bruyne's not a bad stab given what we're dealing with. On the whole though, pretty good effort with a challengingly unique set-up.

Harms looks well drafted. There's a bit less on-the-ball ability at the back - I think De Boer's wand of a left foot would be missed - but there's some great fits across the park. I'd be interested to hear how his brother Ronald would hypothetically have been replicated had he been part of the blueprint line-up.
 

mazhar13

Kermit Inc. 2022
Scout
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
36,877
Location
Toronto, ON, Canada
I can't say I'm sold on Neymar in that role. I'd rather have him as Zico, for several reasons
I see what you are saying regarding Neymar and Zico, but that won't suit Neymar's natural game at all. He is all about playing from the left channel, whilst Zico spent much of his time on the right side. It is difficult to envision how Neymar can play from the right when, for his whole career, he has played from the left side. Ditto for De Bruyne, who played all of his career from the right side. If De Bruyne played from the left and Neymar from the right, I would have switched them. However, I was given lemons, so I'm making my best lemonade here.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
For harms team:

Walcott on the left is really something I can't fathom. Never mind recalling him playing there like ever I don't think he'll be useful at all on the left. Reiziger/Darmian is also an odd one. Reiziger is very good on the ball and a RCB in that formation tucking in. I don't consider Darmian being either.

Badstuber, Abidal and Martinez I think are excellent choices.

I'm not a fan of Essien/Yaya tho. Yaya doesn't have the work rate of Seedorf neither the passing ability, he's not a playmaker. He's good on the ball but either box to box, #10 or anchor. Seedorf's role is very different I'd liked Modric type there.

Essien vs Davids while good fit on the defensive side Davids was very good in transition and excellent at dribbling. Essien is not that kind of a player.

Muller in Litmanen #10 position I like very much. Kuba at the right wing is ok as well.

For mazhar:
Gio and Maicon I think he has done a very good job there.

I like Marchisio in Cerezo role as well as Rakitic(albeit inferior) in Falcao(probably Modric/Kroos would've done well here too).

Pogba in Socrates role is not a bad choice given the pool.

I'm not particularly fond of Eder/Neymar and Zico/KdB. I'd have Hazard/Silva types in there but still if mazhar swaps Neymar and KdB will make much,much more sense.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667
looking at that teams mazhar had impossible job......harms did a great job and other then Darmian and Theo he pretty much got it spot on, specially in the striker position:drool:
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
However, I was given lemons, so I'm making my best lemonade here.
Heh, yes - well, I appreciate that, certainly.

Still, I can't say I like it. Your argument there only holds water if we conclude that Neymar is absolutely incapable of operating in roughly the space Zico did - and I think that's a bit of a stretch. Zico's role wasn't that static. I can certainly buy to an extent that Neymar is more of an obviously lateral player (if that makes sense), but he's still more than capable of playing the part of what is essentially a second striker/finisher with lots of flair. That's my take on '82 Zico anway - less of a playmaker/midfielder, more of a striker/goal scorer.

And part of the problem still remains that Neymar looks a bit out of place as Eder - there's something off about that for me, not least when it comes to re-creating the feel of the side: Where's the main strength? How's the star quality distributed?

Still, I do appreaciate that you have to work with certain cogs here, and that you can't invent brand new ones.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Can't for the life of me envision walcott on the left and playing effectively, minus the goal where he slidetackled his way through the newcastle defence. Happy with the rest of your team though and love the Muller for Litmanen pick
For those of you doubting Walcott's position on the left:

Look at the earlier days of his career. Wenger signed him after watching him playing on the left, and he played there often enough to count it as his secondary position (although he eventually settled on the right and is now asking to play more centrally). What's interesting that they both began as an inverted left wingers (both are right-footed), but they scored most of their goals from their right (even in Overmars' Ajax days, when he had to maintain the team shape most of the times)

@Enigma_87






I will reply about my midfielders a wee later
 

mazhar13

Kermit Inc. 2022
Scout
Joined
Sep 10, 2013
Messages
36,877
Location
Toronto, ON, Canada
And part of the problem still remains that Neymar looks a bit out of place as Eder - there's something off about that for me, not least when it comes to re-creating the feel of the side: Where's the main strength? How's the star quality distributed?
I had similar concerns myself, but now we are here, so...

If I am allowed to switch their positions, I may as well do it. I have nothing to lose anyways.
 

Šjor Bepo

Wout is love, Wout is life; all hail Wout!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
15,667
@harms

I dont have doubts about playing Theo from the left, im fine with it but in terms of style he isnt similar to Overmars IMO. While in his younger days he wasnt useless with the ball as he is now he was never a good dribbler, occasionally he would produce something but not enough and Overmars was first and foremost a great dribbler of the ball.
Thats where the older players have the edge against the modern ones, you can easily sell them with gifs and videos as nobody ever watched them week in week out as we do with the modern ones.
 

Joga Bonito

The Art of Football
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
8,243
mazhar has requested for an interim AM for this match alone as he is very busy. If any neutral is interested please do so.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
I'm not a fan of Essien/Yaya tho. Yaya doesn't have the work rate of Seedorf neither the passing ability, he's not a playmaker. He's good on the ball but either box to box, #10 or anchor. Seedorf's role is very different I'd liked Modric type there.

Essien vs Davids while good fit on the defensive side Davids was very good in transition and excellent at dribbling. Essien is not that kind of a player.
Re: Yaya's passing ability. I'm guessing you haven't watched him much, have you? Yaya is an absolutely outstanding passer, with brilliant technique and vision. I would go so far as to say that he is a better passer than Seedorf at his peak (or at least an equal), let alone his 19-year old version.

I'm too lazy to cut gifs from that video, but you can just select the random moment and enjoy the view - there are plenty of world-class through-balls, chips and other passing. The only problem that Yaya has in this formation ishis mentality - that's where he is clearly inferior to Seedorf, even to the 19-year old version of him.

Essien vs Davids - I think that your image of Essien is a little different from mine, at least, he was a great all-rounder (arguably the best one at the time) and his passing game was on the very high level. Nothing too fancy, but he was direct and accurate. He also carried the ball forward a lot. There is a difference between him and Davids in the ball-playing aspect, but it's not critical. Can't think of a better pick here tbf.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
I dont have doubts about playing Theo from the left, im fine with it but in terms of style he isnt similar to Overmars IMO. While in his younger days he wasnt useless with the ball as he is now he was never a good dribbler, occasionally he would produce something but not enough and Overmars was first and foremost a great dribbler of the ball.
Thats where the older players have the edge against the modern ones, you can easily sell them with gifs and videos as nobody ever watched them week in week out as we do with the modern ones.
Well, let's agree to disagree. Walcott has above average dribbling skills and he used them quite a lot to compliment his outstanding pace. Overmars was a better dribbler, and a better player overall, but stylistically they are very similar. Expected the reaction though, never liked Theo as a player (Overmars too for that matter) myself
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
Some opinions of an actual Arsenal fans about the matter. My take is that Walcott never was as talented as the Dutchman and he won't have a career as successful as him, but he still resembles Overmars' style of play, especially at the first part of his career, before he decided that he want to be a striker. Considering the position he played in he probably looked up to Overmars too, as Overmars is an excellent example for Arsenal's young wingers.

I really do think that Walcott could be our new Marc Overmars. Someone to leave the right touchline and get into center forward positions where he can be slipped in by Cesc as Overmars used to do with Bergkamp's assistance
From: Walcott could be our new Marc Overmars

In style, Theo Walcott looks more like Marc Overmars than Thierry Henry. He has uncanny skill and lightning acceleration.

If he can time his runs off the ball as well as Overmars, Walcott might be scoring 10 goals a season by 2007-2008.
From: Theo Walcott didn’t lose a ball

This season everytime I see Walcott play he reminds me more and more of Marc Overmars.
From: Is Walcott becoming a Marc Overmars type player

Some comparisons to Overmars in the article about him and Theo on Arsenal's official website
http://www.arsenal.com/news/features/20160325/theo-walcott
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,439
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
In the original Ajax set up, to avoid the narrow defence being overrun by winger, both Davids and Seedorf had defensive responsibilities to track opponent's wingers. They were comfortable as wide midfielders. Offensively making late runs into the box, defensively tracking the wingers...it was a high energy, discipline and tactically versatile position. I see neither Essien nor Yaya suitable for that. Essien has the workrate and discipline but not the ball skills of Davids. In addition to lack of skill set, Yaya in particular does not even have the mentality or discipline to suit that role imo.
 

Chesterlestreet

Man of the crowd
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
19,534
It's easy to forget how good Essien was in his pomp.

And, yes - he was pretty complete too. Far more than a limited sort of defensive midfielder.
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
Re: Yaya's passing ability. I'm guessing you haven't watched him much, have you? Yaya is an absolutely outstanding passer, with brilliant technique and vision. I would go so far as to say that he is a better passer than Seedorf at his peak (or at least an equal), let alone his 19-year old version.

I'm too lazy to cut gifs from that video, but you can just select the random moment and enjoy the view - there are plenty of world-class through-balls, chips and other passing. The only problem that Yaya has in this formation ishis mentality - that's where he is clearly inferior to Seedorf, even to the 19-year old version of him.

Essien vs Davids - I think that your image of Essien is a little different from mine, at least, he was a great all-rounder (arguably the best one at the time) and his passing game was on the very high level. Nothing too fancy, but he was direct and accurate. He also carried the ball forward a lot. There is a difference between him and Davids in the ball-playing aspect, but it's not critical. Can't think of a better pick here tbf.
We have to disagree on both I guess. Not saying that Yaya is bad at it for me Seedorf is just better. Both are world class mind. If we're comparing the 19 years old Seedorf then as you mentioned the mentality is quite different in both. Seedorf was a bit of a playmaker at Real even though he played as box to box. A lot of balls were going through him. Still a bit raw of course.

as for passing for me Seedorf is superior:

just in one game against Inter - through balls, the lobbed pass that created the peno, distribution, short link up, etc..
 

Enigma_87

You know who
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Messages
27,654
It's easy to forget how good Essien was in his pomp.

And, yes - he was pretty complete too. Far more than a limited sort of defensive midfielder.
He wasn't a limited defensive midfielder but not close to Davids on the ball.
 

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
I see neither Essien nor Yaya suitable for that. In addition to lack of skill set, Yaya in particular does not even have the mentality or discipline to suit that role imo.
Essien is not suitable for tracking back? Eh? Considering that he played almost identical role for his NT and Chelsea and even played as a fullback for Mourinho at the later stages of his career. Tell me what he lacks in your opinion?

Yaya is a different matter and he is probably the pick that I like the least in my team. He definitely has the skillset though, this is the late-Barca/early-City version of him. He was a fantastic defensive midfielder, capable of playing in defence (like in the CL final against us) and to use his pace, strength and tackling ability to dominate the midfield. He can do literally everything - tackling, interceptions, aerial duels, physical dominance, passing, shooting, dribbling. You're right about the mentality though, it's my main issue with him - even though he wasn't half as bad as he is today (thanks to Mancini, who granted him every wish), he is definitely inferior to Seedorf in that department - if he had Seedorf's mentality he would've been the best midfielder of his generation, imo.

There are a lot of defensive actions in this video, mostly from his time in Barca and Monaco, in case you forgot how different he was earlier
 
Last edited:

harms

Shining Star of Paektu Mountain
Staff
Joined
Apr 8, 2014
Messages
28,036
Location
Moscow
We have to disagree on both I guess. Not saying that Yaya is bad at it for me Seedorf is just better. Both are world class mind. If we're comparing the 19 years old Seedorf then as you mentioned the mentality is quite different in both. Seedorf was a bit of a playmaker at Real even though he played as box to box. A lot of balls were going through him. Still a bit raw of course.

as for passing for me Seedorf is superior:

just in one game against Inter - through balls, the lobbed pass that created the peno, distribution, short link up, etc..
It's 2011 - he is already 35 years old. Completely irrelevant to this game and to Ajax in 1995, like I already said. Seedorf was great for a 19 years old prospect, but he was very far from the player he became in Milan. Like many, he adapted his game in his 30's, when his legs were gone and his body just wasn't the same, he became more of a playmaker and less of a box-to-box (even though he was, to some extent, the combination of both all his career). At 19 he just wasn't as good at passing as Yaya Toure was at his peak, sorry.

Like Toure himself didn't possess a world-class ability for the most part of his career, despite scoring an occasional screamer, but he developed it later and was absolutely brilliant as a long-range goalscorer in the last few years.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

Ero-Sennin
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
41,439
Location
┴┬┴┤( ͡° ͜ʖ├┬┴┬
Essien is not suitable for tracking back? Eh? Considering that he played almost identical role for his NT and Chelsea and even played as a fullback for Mourinho at the later stages of his career. Tell me what he lacks in your opinion?
I meant as wide midfielder...more specifically tracking back of opponent's wingers. In the usual midfield, Essien is a good replacement, but out wide? Has Yaya operated out wide at all?