Remake Draft R16 | Paulscholes18 vs Tuppet

Please vote for the better remake of the classical set-up


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Joga Bonito

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Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as remakes of classic teams, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in re-creating both the individual roles and the overall functionality of the original. THIS IS NOT A FANTASY MATCH BETWEEN TWO SIDES, but rather a comparison of remakes.

Please feel free to tag the managers if you require more information about their set-ups/players etc.


Team Tuppet
Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

Defensive:
Catenaccio
predicated itself on always having a spare man in defense. It accomplished this by using man-marking; each Inter player knew who he was meant to be keeping tabs on in his half of the field. The spare man was the sweeper, for those Inter teams, Armando Picchi, cleaning up anyone who slipped their marker long enough to provide a threat.

Offensive:
“In attack, all the players knew what I wanted: vertical football at great speed, with no more than three passes to get to the opponent’s box.”


“A small number of short, very quick passes to get to the opposition’s goal in as little time as possible. There is almost no place for dribbling. It’s a tool, not a system. The ball always moves further, and more quickly, when there isn’t a player behind it.”

- Herrera


These quotes from Il Mago himself gives us a fair idea, of how the attacking system is supposed to work.
Stay deep, soak the pressure, win the ball back in their half and launch the ball forward with speed and directness. Directness is the key here and this along with the ability to play the counter attacking system has weighed heavily in my picks.

Style -
Counter attacking, Direct, Long passes. Defend deep as a team and employ a lot of time wasting when leading.

Defense:

Defensive line -
Deep. Di Stéfano described Picchi to Lowe as - “one of those sweepers who played so deep that, if there was a bit of fog and you thought you’d gone past all of them, another one would appear. ‘Where did that guy come from? Are they playing with 12, or what?

This is exactly how I want my sweeper (Carvalho) to play.

Marking - Strictly man marking with a free sweeper.

Off the ball - Drop deep to own half, with each man sticking to his player, while the free sweeper stays further back to provide last line of defense. Win the ball with tough tackling.

On the ball - Pump the ball into the box with long passes from deep and direct runs.

Midfield:

Midfield's roles are specialized, Pirlo is the main conductor, his job is to get the ball to forwards and onrushing Sorin, with his impeccable long range passing. Kante's role is to often man mark the opposition playmaker and tackle everything that moves. Silva provide extra creativity from the left, can go either to the middle or wide left. Finally Di Maria's role is to own the right wing, while he is more of a right forward

Attack:

Attack is spear headed by Ronaldo and supported by Tevez. Two main attributes we're looking from our attack are lethal finishing - to finish off any little half chance we create - and direct strong running toward opposition defense, to start and finish counters. Ronaldo and Tevez fits the bill perfectly, both have played for counter attacking teams throughout their careers, both are fast, great finishers and can create their chances as well.


More on team and tactic:

Much like the grande Inter our team is built on the principles of a team effort and strong work ethic. Organization is of prime importance whereby the team set out in the shape of 4 levels. These are: first level of a sweeper, two/four defenders depending upon the possession, five/three midfielders and two forwards.

The forward line of 2 is amorphous in which Tevez plays a vital role, that of the ‘fantasista’. Blessed with a great touch and explosive pace and finishing to match, Tevez is the man responsible for netting every half-chance, especially away where he’d often be stuck on his own, but equally importantly, setting up his more advanced partner. He is paired with the lethal Ronaldo. In the midfield, the architect named Andrea Pirlo is the playmaker responsible for finding the men upfront.

But true wonders of this team and Herrera’s system are the two players on the wings. On the right, Di Maria plays the right wing forward role which he played for Mourinho's slick counter attacking machine in Real Madrid and now plays for PSG. His role is to charge forward whenever possession was won. Di Maria would be the outlet for Pirlo, Silva, Kante and Carvalho whenever they won the ball. Of these, Pirlo & Silva are particularly accomplished passers known for their range. This perfectly complements Di Maria's ability to drive forward. On the left we have Juan Pablo Sorin, a left wing back who loves to attack and go forward at every chance, especially to utilize the space vacated from Silva, when he cuts in. Sorin and Di Maria are the two players which provided balance and thrust to this machine. They make sure that the team stayed organized with men behind the ball when the opposition had the ball, but also that this does not impede them when deciding to go forward.

How defensive was catenaccio ? -
Debate has also enveloped the nature of catenaccio. Several contemporaries say it was more constructive than its reputation suggests. Herrera claimed his system was misunderstood, because others had copied it and left out several attacking principles. This is supported by Mazzola, who believes the misconception is rooted in the European campaigns that served to establish Inter’s notoriety. “When I hear about Inter playing catenaccio, I have to say we played about six matches with catenaccio and 40 matches with attacking football,” Mazzola told FIFA.com. “I remember my team-mates Picchi and Guarneri, two centre-backs, who during San Siro home games could spend 60 minutes looking into the stands, trying to spot a girl to take out that evening, because the opposition only played in their half. But then, when we played abroad – and I guess this was a mistake – we didn’t feel very comfortable and secure, and stayed back more.”

He added: “We had five attacking players in the side, six if you include Facchetti, who used to get forward a lot, something that no one else did at the time. It’s true that we sometimes employed a very defensive system away from home, but we regularly played 4-2-4, and everyone worked really hard.”

Our squad has the right amount of attacking flair in Ronaldo, Tevez, Di Maria, Pirlo, and Silva to adhere to the attacking principles of Grande Inter.

Final thoughts:
I believe our squad remake the Grande Inter squad closely both in personnel and tactically. Ofcourse there are some players who are impossible to replace such as Facchetti and there are some players who could be a bit better, but were chosen by other managers. The fact that most of our squad (really all of them except Puyol and Silva) have played in counter attacking teams is very important to our tactical set up. I'll write more on individual players and their suitability to the role in the game thread.
 
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Joga Bonito

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Tuppet's Modern Remake......................................................................../............................Inter Milan 1964/Helenio Herrera (1-3-4-2)
 
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Joga Bonito

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Team Paulscholes18 & Marty1968
Philosophy/Ideology of tactical set-up

Style of play- Shorter passing game
Defence Line- Normal
Build up play- From the back
Pressing- Sit back and press on an individual basis

Defense

In goal World cup & Champions League winner arguably the best keeper in the 2010s Neuer
in front of him we have

In Nesta we have a complete, dominant & influential defender, for both club and country and the closest player in the draft that can mirror Beckenbauer's influence and grace. Nesta was an excellent ball playing defender with very good vision and passing ability. The Germany side's defensive line was built around der Kaizer and Nesta had to be our first pick of the draft for that reason.

Next to him we have Hummels who will adopt the role of the tough tackling Schwarzenbeck. Neither player is a stand out name for their quality on the ball but they are renowned for their work rate, positional awareness and toughness. Hummels would pair very nicely with Nesta.

At fullback we have two very different full backs, which reflect the West Germany side. In Breitner, the German's had a wonderfully attacking full back, with bags of energy. This we have replicated with Marcelo's attacking abilities and with the players in front of Marcelo, he will be able to do just that.

On the opposite side we have Lichtsteiner, a hard working, tough tackling full back who is excellent at what he's there to do - defend! Wonderfully efficient which is what the German's excelled at...efficiency rather than dazzling the fans with their skills.



In Midfield

In 72 they had Nezer as the main man where almost all their play went through him, picking the ball up switching play, or bursting forward.

Veron- He will be doing the defensive leg work of the team, on the left side of the trio, doing the donkey work for Vidal- like Wimmer did for Netzer

Vidal- Main man in midfield. Like Netzer was in the German 72 side. No real defensive work for him to do, he be picking the ball from the defence off the ball he be drifting around the pitch finding space to link up play, playing long passes out wide and bursting runs from deep,

Aimar- Right side of the trio, he will be roaming around popping in to any space avalible, causing problems for the opposition players not knowing weather to track his movement or to let him go- like hottges did for his goal vs England

Upfront

The German 72 front 3 were known for dropping deep to create space to spin and run in behind

Ljungberg- the most rigid of the wide men spending most of the time of the right getting balls in the box for Ruud and Cavani to attack, dropping deep to help make some space to spin and run into

Ruud Van Nistelrooy- Born goal scorer, deadly between patently spot and 6 yard box, processes good acceleration, will also drop between the oppositions defence and midfield

Cavani unlike Ljungberg Cavani will be drifting of the left wing playing more as a striker next to RVN at times

With Nesta, Hummels, Marcelo & Lichtsteiner who are all comfortable brining the ball out from the back making it easier to build attacks and outnumber the opposition,
With their comfort on the ball they can also just roll it out to the midfielders, with Vidal as our main guy, he would hit it out wide then getting the ball back n the middle again, with the front 3 dropping deep to give a shot option then lay it back again to cerate the space to run into for the killer pass.
 

Joga Bonito

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Paulscholes18 & Marty1968's Modern Remake......................... / .............. Germany 1972 - Helmut Schön (4-3-3)
 
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Enigma_87

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@Joga Bonito you should edit the OP I think as it says DavidG's team, while it should be Tuppet's one.

Will look into it and comment on it later.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Very difficult teams to remake, both of them. Players like Mazzola, Netzer, Suarez and Breitner are near impossible to replace with modern players. The gap in talent is too vast to be bridged. Great effort by both managers.

La Grande Inter is one of my favourite classic teams and potentially has the most number of 'irreplaceable' players, Suarez and Mazzola, Picchi & Facchetti!

On Tuppet's team:

Tevez for Mazzola is a very distinct drop in quality imo. Tevez may match Mazzola in stamina and to an extent in versatility, but in all other attributes (ball control, dribbling, agility, creativity etc) he falls far short of the bar. Both are completely different type of players imo.

Di Maria is a inspired choice here and I can't think of a better modern player to replicate that role. Though Jair had far more speed than AdM, imo.

Pirlo <> Suarez....mmmm! Can't really decide on this. Going purely by the moniker "The Architect" I suppose it's as good a fit as any, but I remember Suarez being a bit more aggressive than Pirlo. But then who else can do a better job, Modric? Fabregas? Can't rightly decide. I'll settle for Pirlo being sufficient hereabouts.

Puyol certainly has the versatility to operate successfully and the doggedness and tenacity to make that position his own. I think of Burgnich of being a 'hardman' and him nicknamed "Rock". Puyol is a bit more of a flair player than Burgnich, but still a decent replacement.

On Paulscholes18's team:

Don't really think the midfield trio resembles to original. Would swapping Veron and Vidal work better? Maybe.

There's also no way to replace Breitner. Marcelo is a totally different type of player to what that role requires, but there are very few choices in the pool to even make a reasonable alternative, if not a perfect one.

Leaning towards Tuppet for now.
 
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harms

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Can't see the formations, am I the only one?
 

Physiocrat

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Pirlo <> Suarez....mmmm! Can't really decide on this. Going purely by the moniker "The Architect" I suppose it's as good a fit as any, but I remember Suarez being a bit more aggressive than Pirlo. But then who else can do a better job, Modric? Fabregas? Can't rightly decide. I'll settle for Pirlo being sufficient hereabouts.
I really think Veron is the best player to replace Suarez. Excellent long passing but has the aggression and mobility to get forward to score a few goals. Pirlo was a bit more static a player.
 

Ecstatic

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My 1st comments:

Zona Mista is a mix of Catenaccio (defensive strategy) and Total Football (offensive strategy). So I think the defence of Tuppet is an excellent recreation because:

1. Puyol is an excellent marker who had the opportunity to play as a RB in the past. My team has recruited Barzagli to do so.
2. Sorin is pretty versatile (3-5-2 with Argentina, 4-4-2, left-back or side-midfielder) so he could do the job. I have opted for a similar profile: Zambrotta
3. Carvalho is a good ball-playing sweeper. I have Bonucci.
4. Pepe is a strong stopper. My left-CB is Igor Tudor.

I have 2 concerns:

- One for Tuppet: the case of Pirlo
- One for paulscholes: the case of Cavani
 

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I think Kante is a strange choice here. Wouldn't class him as an occasonal man marker, he's just incredinbly good at interceptions.

Pirlo is a major problem IMO and the only reason I am not favouring Tuppet. This inter side is about getting the ball as quickly as possible upfield, but Pirlo is one of the greatest players in history at slowing the tempo down. Sure, he is capable of exquisite long balls and launching attacks but is that really his game?

On the German side, Cavani just looks out of place as does Ljunberg IMO.

I feel both teams could have picked a little bit better.
 

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Tuppet's inclusion of Ricardo Carvalho as his sweeper though is a great move
 

Ecstatic

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Done, thanks for the help @Downcast
You're welcome
I think Kante is a strange choice here. Wouldn't class him as an occasonal man marker, he's just incredinbly good at interceptions.
Kanté could make sense because he has to replace Gianfranco Bedin who was
a former Italian footballer who played for Internazionale as a defensive midfielder; a ball-winner, he was known for his anticipation, stamina, work-rate, man-marking, and his ability to read the game, defensively supporting his more creative and offensive team-mates.
 

Tuppet

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Best of luck @paulscholes18 @Marty1968

I couldn't do a detailed player to player comparison before and I find it extremely interesting that Pirlo is thought as the most controversial choice in my set up. This draft more than any other is dependent upon the perception of players, so I would try to outline why I think Pirlo is the best possible fit for the Suarez role (no its not just because they are both called Architect) in a post soon.
 

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Best of luck @paulscholes18 @Marty1968

I couldn't do a detailed player to player comparison before and I find it extremely interesting that Pirlo is thought as the most controversial choice in my set up. This draft more than any other is dependent upon the perception of players, so I would try to outline why I think Pirlo is the best possible fit for the Suarez role (no its not just because they are both called Architect) in a post soon.
“A small number of short, very quick passes to get to the opposition’s goal in as little time as possible. There is almost no place for dribbling. It’s a tool, not a system. The ball always moves further, and more quickly, when there isn’t a player behind it.”

Even this line kind of negates how Pirlo actually launches quick attacks. When he did speed things up, he's more famed for his long balls over the top than his short, very quick passes.
 

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“A small number of short, very quick passes to get to the opposition’s goal in as little time as possible. There is almost no place for dribbling. It’s a tool, not a system. The ball always moves further, and more quickly, when there isn’t a player behind it.”

Even this line kind of negates how Pirlo actually launches quick attacks. When he did speed things up, he's more famed for his long balls over the top than his short, very quick passes.
Its not a tiki taka team though, its counter attacking deep sitting team. Luis Suarez is recognized as one of the history's greatest long passer of the ball. When pressed in their own half Suarez's long passes to Jair and Mazzola were Inter's primary weapon for counter attacks. Pirlo's ability and inclination for long passing, along with his directness and flair is the primary reason I have chosen him to play the Suarez role.

One thing we need to remember about the quotes from players/managers of that era is the context they are talking about. When Herrera is sayingt quick short passes its hardly Barcelona-esque, hell it looks slow motion football compared to even some teams of that era (E.g. the dutch masters). The good thing about re creating this team is that we can actually see most of the games ourselves and decide how the team used to play. Here are 3 of the most famous goals scored by Grande Inter -

2 Against Real Madrid in Champions league 63/64 final -




And the one against Benfica in 65 final -


The common theme is that each of these goals originated with a long pass from deep and reached to opposite end in less than 5 passes. This long passing from the deep is the primary reason for picking Pirlo.
 
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Tuppet

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On Pirlo -

Before Pirlo was a luxury player -- before the beard, the wine and the fetishization that comes with being discovered by English fans (you're not good unless they acknowledge you as such) -- he was the Geppetto of AC Milan. Pirlo is one of those players who got overrated in certain aspects of game so much that he is underrated in other aspects. Any time you select him in the draft he is instantly regarded as a defensive liability.

For example take a look at this performance -


Its clear to that there is something weird here and that is -- tackles and interceptions. He's not prancing about the field lazily, waiting to receive the ball and play his signature passes; instead, he's sprinting toward attackers, stealing passes, stopping runs, going shoulder to shoulder with rivals. Putting his body on the line, a concept so far-fetched and foreign these days.

The match is then a display of all of his skills: receiving the ball from defenders so deep that it resembles how Xabi Alonso operates. Spraying passes side to side with either foot, playing them over the top of the defense for the then quicksilver Pato, but there's also an exceptional drive --an attribute that made him much more deadly in his younger days. He could dribble. He could push the ball beyond defenders.

The Pirlo that is on the field in my team is the world champion Pirlo, who was never physically dominant, but he compensated for that failing with his cerebral play. He was always the smartest man on the pitch. Playing passing lanes and pouncing on loose touches to recover possession; embodying the doctrine of pass and move like few others ever could and having such a vast array of talents that he could be dangerous from his team's defensive third to the opponent's box. One 60-yard pass could lead to a goal, and so could his free kicks and strikes from outside the 18.

He was control personified. Even in moments of intense pressure, he had already calculated how to escape it and the two moves beyond that. That is not to say that he didn't have his weaknesses: the failures of the body are hard to hide in a 90-minute game and his Hollywood passes are a sin to be lived with.

Fitness for the Suarez role -

As I mentioned in the post above, the primary requirement for this role in my mind is extremely accurate long passing. And Pirlo is basically peerless at this in the pool, even better than Xavi, Alonso etc. The secondary requirements are directness and flair, always trying to pick a forward with a pass instead of aiming to keep possession. Again Pirlo trumps everyone in this department. Like Luisto Suarez he started his career as an attacking midfielder and like him Pirlo always retained the flair and directness that comes with playing this role. Yeah he is slightly less mobile than Suarez, but he ticks much more important boxes for me. I would not swap him for any player in the pool for this role.

 

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sound and solid explanation. I just took the " small number of very quick short passes" to mean the way it does in modern terms, but I understand better now.
 

Ecstatic

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@paulscholes18

Please could you describe Kremers?

I guess it's hard to have a lot of information regarding old-school German players
 

Enigma_87

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On Tuppet's team:

I think we have to take in consideration that Tuppet had some really tough positions to fill both in terms of skill set and in terms of how well they gel into a formation that has couple of strong pillars - Facchetti, Mazzola, Suarez, Jair, Burgnich - that would be pretty hard to replicate and replace. Overall I think he has done well in terms of creating a functional unit that matches the tactical ideas and the formation.

What I really like:
+ Burgnich and Puyol - great match IMO that fits very well into the side
+ Jair/AdM - AdM is a good pick for that "defensive" winger role - excellent work rate, but also fits well in the attacking end with also speed, technique to boot.
+ Carvalho/Picchi - excellent choice. Of course not as good in terms of quality but in terms of actual role he'll slot in nicely
+ Silva/Corso - like this one as well.

Now the issues I have are:
- Pirlo/Suarez - as mentioned, Pirlo at his best is sitting behind 2 hard working midfielders and having more time on the ball. Suarez is a bit opposite. Pirlo matches Suarez very well in terms of passing, especially the long passes, but falls short in terms of dribble, surging forward, goal scoring threat and also the quick interplay and general position and role on the pitch.
- Sorin is a huge downgrade on Facchetti. It's impossible to replicate and the only player in the draft I can see matching the role(or at least being close to it) is Alaba, but really albeit very interesting player Sorin is underwhelming in what he will be asked to make the flank his own.
- Tevez/Mazzola - Tevez is excellent goalscorer with a work rate to book, fits into counter attacking team, but lacks the creativity which is again pretty important in that side. I'd prefer a more creative type of player there.
- Kante/Pirlo midfield is the only not very functional pair in that team. It just doesn't fit well for me.

On paulscholes18 team:
Breitner/der Keiser will be the two impossible tasks here. Nesta given the pool I think is a nice choice. Marcelo and Breitner is a bit different tho.

What I like:

+ RvN/Muller - no need to explain really. Excellent fit, albeit not in the same league, but who is eh?
+ Vidal/Aimar/Veron is very balanced midfield that fits the tactical approach

However I think Cavani and Ljungberg should be swapped. Heynkess was the goalscoring type of winger and much bigger natural goal scoring threat.
Veron and Vidal also should be swapped. Veron personally does not resemble at all Wimmer.
Hummels and HGS I don't think is particularly good fit IMO.Hummels would be more in the Beckenbauer role rather than HGS stopper role. I'd gone with a tougher modern CB there.
 

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Yeah I'd echo Enigma's comments above. The one modern player who I'd liken to Luis Suarez in style, position and appearance would be Iniesta. Pirlo is fine though and has an exceptional range from deep. De Maria is a good stab at Jair, albeit the anal side of me would prefer a right-footer there. Given the constraints of the pool and the lateness of Tuppet's left-back pick, Sorin is a good effort at Facchetti. He'd obviously need to be on the top of his game to make this formation work.

For PaulScholes18 and Tuppet I applaud the RVN and Nesta picks. You don't necessarily get the Kaiser's forays into midfield with Nesta, but the defensive security is well mirrored. Netzer was always a tricky one to replicate but Veron has to be released through the middle.
 

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Iniesta is a great shout and I think Luisto Suarez himself said that he sees Iniesta as most similar player to him in modern times.

El mismo Suárez se comparó con Iniesta. Pero para Pedrazzini, el futbolista actual que soporta mejor el símil sería Pirlo, por cómo fue adaptando su posición con los años y su ascendencia sobre sus compañeros.
Crappy google translation -

Suarez himself was compared with Iniesta. But for Pedrazzini, the current player that best supports the simile would be Pirlo, by how he was adapting its position over the years and his influence over their peers.
I was looking for Iniesta quotes, and was happy with the Pirlo plug there.
 

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I don't like Ruud all that much in the Müller role, to be honest. I don't think he offers anything beyond the obvious - the work in the box. He is nowhere near capable of playing the part Müller actually played for that team in a non-obvious capacity: His off-the-ball work, his movement (going much deeper than Ruud ever did to involve himself), etc.

He's a great finisher playing the part of a great finisher - but he doesn't tick many boxes beyond that.
 

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Major negative points of my squad IMO -

-> Facchetti - Sorin = Huge downgrade, but I am not really too concerned there. There is really no player who can replace him and I am not even talking about quality. From what I've seen he was a center forward playing in left back position, very different from your typical attacking left wing back. His game was not about running up and down the left wing, overlap and crossing, he was probably one of the first inverted winger, starting on left cutting in scoring in the middle.

A few samples -

Look at his positioning for these goals, right in the center furthest forward -




And finally this beauty against Liverpool in CL semifinal, when they were trailing 3-1 from the first leg. This sparked the (controversial) comeback of Inter winning the second leg 3-0


No wonder Real Madrid coach was obsessed about him before the CL final.
Prior to the final, Miguel Muñoz, the Madrid coach, had obsessed about Facchetti. “He drove us mad with Facchetti, giving him an incredible importance,” Di Stéfano said, according to Lowe. “Anyone would think he was [Paco] Gento. So what happened? Facchetti never attacked us once.”
So he can stay back and defend as well ? well yeah, he did play as a sweeper so he can actually defend. But from what I have seen, he was most certainly attack first player.

So which modern left back can actually imitate him - None. People are saying Alaba but he is a totally different player to Facchetti, he is more similar to Junior and Brehme than Facchetti. Marcelo, Cole, Evra none of them play in a similar style. The only player I think can make it work is Spur's peak Bale. He would converted left back from forward for us like Facchetti. But we might as well forget about defense then. Fachhetti !! phew, What a truly remarkable player.
 
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Ecstatic

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Luis Suarez is mainly a 'playmaker' - also called the Architect - known for his passes, his creativity...and his powerful shots.
14 goals in 32 games with Spain

In 1961 Suárez became the world's most expensive footballer when Barcelona sold him to Inter Milan where he was an equally prominent member of the legendary Great Inter side of the 1960s as a deep-lying playmaker.
So Pirlo remains a very good choice imho. Deco could have been an interesting option.
 

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To get all my purely negative observations out of the way, I see no reason why you'd want to field Hummels as Schwarzenbeck. Strikes me as a pointless combo the way it stands. Beckenbauer is impossible to fully re-recreate - like several other GOATs in this draft. But for my money Hummels would have been a better Beckenbauer fit than Nesta - regardless of the fact that Nesta is obviously the superior player.

Team up Hummels with a pure stopper of some description, and you have something closer to the original combo than this.
 

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any excuse to post this goal, but this guy in the future may be a not bad shout for Facchetti
 

paulscholes18

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Full backs, As Lahm and Zambrotta were taken thought it would be better to pick a top class attacking LB and a hard tackling RB who's good going forward, instead of two sub standard full backs who can play both lb and rb (Fabio and santon for example)

Midfield Vidal was the only Choice for Netzer's role, looks like we made a mistake going for Veron instead of picking Matuidi for the iron lung role

At first I thought Muller was just a top class poacher that's why I went for Ruud, after watching match footage I now knew he did a lot more off the ball.
 

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voted for tuppet even though i really dont like Pirlo as Suarez. The other team has few strange(3 most obvious that were already mentioned in the thread - Hummels, Veron and Vidal) picks so that Pirlo doesnt really matter.