a playmaking, creative forward who plays wide to the left and drifts inside to act as a forward
Likewise, Albert in an inside left role of sorts does seem out of place. I've pegged him down as a predominantly central player in the matches that I've watched of him and I seriously question his fit for that job description in your set-up.Albert’s artistry on the left,
I actually wanted to mention the quality differential that exists between both defenses (with both sides sporting imposing attacks) in the OP, but thought that it might have been unnecessary and harsh.Despite of having relatively lesser known defenders, individually my defense is at least equal or actually better than Joga's defense. Perfumo is widely regarded as better defender than Ruggeri in almost all Argentinian boards I can find, while Ferrara is the more talented one from the Vierchwood-Ferrara partnership. As a partnership its even better and is more complimentary.
Well to begin with, I completely disagree with this. There is absolutely nothing between Bonhof and Lerby in box to box roles, and I would pick Cerezo ahead of Stielike for a defensive midfielder role. Not to forget the support they get from Mazzola and Olsen, I am pretty certain my midfield is better primmed for the battle.I'd say that they,
relatively,
my midfield duo is just a wee bit stronger.
Well there is no doubt that Bossis is better fullback, but the role I need Evra to play, I would take him over Bossis here.Good luck @Tuppet
Anyway, individually speaking Bossis is arguably the best left back in this draft alongside Junior and as much as I love Evra, I'd have Bossis ahead of him. Ruggeri is regarded as one of the greatest stoppers of all time - one of only 3 defenders, alongside Figueroa and Cafu, to win the South American Footballer of the Year and the La Liga Foreign Player of the Year in 1989 to boot. That in addition to winning 2 Copa Americas and the WC - where he was the foundation of the defense which conceded a miserly 3 goals en route to the final. Boards are hardly an indication of reliability tbf, and I seriously doubt many placing Perfumo (a fine defender in his own right) ahead of Ruggeri on here at the very least.
Likewise, Vierchowod whom the likes of van basten, Lineker, Zola, Maradona etc labelled as their toughest opponent ever and someone who won the Guerin d'Oro ahead of ballon d'Or winning Platini, over Ferrara too. Hard to compare Reuter with your zona mista defense but I'd have him over Leandro, your only RB, on the basis of his defensive edge alone. (Sorry for repeating the OP harms)
So yeah, it's fair to say I disagree with that statement of yours.
Albert is playing a creative support striker role, one which he excelled in, He does not have to be a left inside forward, he is playing for example Bettega from Juve team or Grazziani role from Italy team , where he has freedom to peel wide whenever required but not necessarily playing as a wide player. He definitley has the skills, dribbling and pace to be exteremly effective in wide areas. The width comes from Evra primarily and Conti channging sides constantly, a role he played to perfection in WC 82.Good luck
Likewise, Albert in an inside left role of sorts does seem out of place. I've pegged him down as a predominantly central player in the matches that I've watched of him and I seriously question his fit for that job description in your set-up.
There is absolutely nothing between Bonhof and Lerby in box to box roles,
Let's just leave that to the voters to decide and not descend into a X v Y debate. We've both made our points.and I would pick Cerezo ahead of Stielike for a defensive midfielder role.
Tbh, I'd take neither for that role.Well there is no doubt that Bossis is better fullback, but the role I need Evra to play, I would take him over Bossis here.
Bettega was an inside forward though. I agree that Albert has the skills, dribbling and pace but that so too have plenty of other #10s/second-strikers and it doesn't necessarily translate to them being effective in wide areas or being able to play as an inside forward. Players like Charlton, del Piero, Häßler, Rivelino etc would have been ideal and they clearly had the 'wide inclination' in their game to play such roles. Or more pertinently, the likes of S.Mazzola, Bettega, Causio, Boniek etc in their respective catenaccio/zona mista set-ups. Albert couldn't be further away from that category of players.He does not have to be a left inside forward, he is playing for example Bettega or Grazziani role from Juve team, where he has freedom to peel wide whenever required but not necessarily playing as a wide player. He definitley has the skills, dribbling and pace to be exteremly effective in wide areas.
The width comes from Evra primarily and Conti channging sides constantly, a role he played to perfection in WC 82.
The likes of Gemmell, Wilson and even Zambrotta would have been better fits, despite being below Evra in terms of quality. Attacking and running up and down the wing was Evra's primary strength but whenever he was left alone on the flank (think Fergie tried him as a left mid a few times if I remember correctly), it clearly didn't work out well at all. As stated above, Evra's strengths were overlapping, his link-up play and sheer athleticism. However, end product and single-handedly manning a flank weren't exactly his forte.Finally Evra is as good as it gets in this draft for LWB slot, I am not saying he is as good as Cabrini for this role, but attacking and running up and down the left wing, was always Evra's primary strength.
Both of whom were predominantly central players without any significant 'width inclination' in their plays. I highly doubt their ability to provide the requisite support for Evra on the left flank.Sure his end product might be lacking a bit, but he can definitely play 1-2s with Albert or Mazzola.
Well as such there is no other reason than I thought it suits my players very well. With 2 great stoppers, a libero and an attacking wing back and 2 brilliant forwards, I thought it suits my players. As for opposition all 3 forwards in kempes, Simonson and greaves are all primarily central players, so my 3 central defenders would make it hard for them. Esp Ferrara against Kempes.@Tuppet
Why would you opt for zona mista?
That would be my main question. You don't say anything in your write-up which would make it remotely clear why you'd opt for this particular approach against this particular opponent, given the players you have (or the players your opponent has).
You seem to have drafted Conti and then decided to go Italian (moving on from a magic square in the last match). Which is nice, but it has to make sense. Evra? Yes, sure, he's a better fit for a zona mista left back/wing back than my granny - but what's the point?
It's not like that.Well I honestly believe that evra would work well in the system but you learn something new every time I guess.
I don't really get this - it just looks like he's gone for the system due to his players suiting it. Nothing too controversial there as far as I can see.It's not like that.
He might work well enough (compared to other players) in that role. The question is why you'd want to give it to him in the first place.
I don't see why you'd want to go with this Italian job at all. You've gone for a particular (historical) formation (with designated roles) - I don't see why. Your players may or may not be well suited for it, but the question remains why you've opted for that blueprint.
Well, Simonsen excelled as a right wing-forward and was a two-way player both capable of going on the outside and stretching play and cutting in and scoring a goal.considering the narrow attack of our opposition (both Kempes and Simonsen likes to play centrally)
My midfield is completed by the most important player on my team
In my mind Mazzola is the best player on the pitch, playing in his best position and is given responsibility to run the game as he like, I think that could be the edge that my team need to win in a tight game.
Good substitution but didn't expect you to sub the best player on the pitch out that fast .Out goes Valentino Mazzola and in comes one of the greatest wingers of all time Felix Loustau.
As too can mine with WC Golden Ball & Golden Shoe winner Kempes prowling the left hand channels, the trickery and pace of the ballon d'Or winning Simonsen on the right and of course Ballon d'Or winning Rivera's pulling the strings here. All that with the quicksilver and lethal Greaves and the end of it all. So yeah, there are quite a few ways my defense can punish your attack as well.I think there are just way too many ways our attack can punish the opposition defense
Perhaps it does or maybe not. Ferrara at RCB is a good fit to deal with Kempes, but whether he is of the requisite quality to stop Kempes is altogether a different debate - one I'm not keen to get into but at the same time I wouldn't comfortably say that Ferrara would nullify Kempes. As too were the Olsen-Perfumo duo who are fine defenders themselves, but they might find the sheer explosiveness of Greaves hard to deal with. For what it's worth, Evra, whose defensive game I rate higher than most, squares up fairly well against Simonsen.and our defense nullifies most of the opposition attack.
Well while they were capable, both of them are still primarily forwards (Especially Kempes) and would not stretch the defense like wingers or genuine wide players, there is also possibility of a lot of centrally oriented players (Kempes, Greaves, Rivera & Simonsen to some degree) clogging the same central area. An area where I happen to have 3 fantastic defenders and 2 great defensive midfielders. I think my defense would be able to hold of your brilliant but mostly central attack.Well, Simonsen excelled as a right wing-forward and was a two-way player both capable of going on the outside and stretching play and cutting in and scoring a goal.
As too was Kempes who excelled on the inside left channels and didn't shy away from drifting out wide and taking on his full-backs when the occasion called for it, before cutting in.
I won't deny it, I still think he was brilliant and probably the best player on the pitch. But I think it was right substitution, esp I am never going to be able to prove Mazzola's greatness without much footage. In any case, there is very little drop off in quality as Loustau is equally brilliant in his own position. He is rated as one of the greatest winger of all time, scored a bucket ton and won every single thing both for country (There was no world cup during his peak, but 3 consecutive Copa is pretty neat achievement) and club.Good substitution but didn't expect you to sub the best player on the pitch out that fast .
I would say Ferrara during his career has faced many tricky and powerful forwards including the likes of Ronaldo, Batigol etc and has done very well, While I really like Kempes, but I think Ferrara can handle him. Here's his brilliant performance against Inter of Ronaldo -Perhaps it does or maybe not. Ferrara at RCB is a good fit to deal with Kempes, but whether he is of the requisite quality to stop Kempes is altogether a different debate - one I'm not keen to get into but at the same time I wouldn't comfortably say that Ferrara would nullify Kempes. As too were the Olsen-Perfumo duo who are fine defenders themselves, but they might find the sheer explosiveness of Greaves hard to deal with. For what it's worth, Evra, whose defensive game I rate higher than most, squares up fairly well against Simonsen.
There isn't a FB in the draft better suited to dealing with Conti than Bossis, and Ruggeri's play is indeed ideal for Seeler's centre-forward play inside the box and Reuter has the pace and dynamism to keep tabs on Loustau. Ultimately, I believe the match would be won in midfield, and I'd back my midfield unit of Stielike-Lerby-Rivera to have the edge on your midfield unit as stated in the OP. A close match nevertheless.
Thank you.
As a goal poacher he was exquisite, able to score all type of goals - header, long ranger, volleys or tap ins here are a few examples.1. Bican, Josef (Austria, Bohemia/Moravia) 805+
2. Romário (Brazil) 772
3. Pelé (Brazil) 767
4. Puskás, Ferenc (Hungary) 746+
5. Müller, Gerd (Germany) 735
6. Deák, Ferenc (Hungary) 576+
7. Seeler, Uwe (Germany) 575
The prime reason for having width is of course to stretch the opponent's defense and that was exactly what Kempes and Simonsen were doing for their sides. At the end of the day, whether the attackers are able to stretch play and being comfortable making runs out wide in a fluid manner, is just as (if not more) critical than 'just having conventional/genuine wide players'. Of course, there is always the danger of shoehorning central players out wide but that isn't the case with Simonsen or Kempes here. The Argentine is as versatile as it gets and was at home attacking from the inside left channels. Simonsen is playing his natural role here as the right wing-forward and he's also played alongside another inside left, Heynckes, to an extremely high level.Well while they were capable, both of them are still primarily forwards (Especially Kempes) and would not stretch the defense like wingers or genuine wide players,
That's a weird reasoning for the sub as you aren't going to prove Loustau's greatness without much footage' again?esp I am never going to be able to prove Mazzola's greatness without much footage. In any case, there is very little drop off in quality as Loustau is equally brilliant in his own position.
Except of course, that is just a short snippet of the highlights (1m 30s) clearly favouring Ferrara. Here is the entire video where Ronaldo puts the fear of god into the Juve defense and nearly breaches them a few times before coming up with a magnificent assist.I would say Ferrara during his career has faced many tricky and powerful forwards including the likes of Ronaldo, Batigol etc and has done very well, While I really like Kempes, but I think Ferrara can handle him. Here's his brilliant performance against Inter of Ronaldo -
It isn't so much a question of their quality but rather their lack of dynamism and turn of pace which could be exploited by Greaves - once again relatively to Seeler against Ruggeri-Vierchowod, it's a game of margins after all.Perfumo led Argentina to QF of 66 world cup, where they lost with 10 men to a controversial goal. He held off Germany of Seeler from scoring and also pretty much nullified England attack (granted Greaves was not in the team) except losing to an allegedly offside goal. I think he can square off well against Greaves.
I'd readily concede that point, neither of my centre-backs are particularly renowned for their ball playing ability from the back, but Vierchowod was definitely no slouch on the ball and was a fine passer from the back.His pressing would be an issue, given that neither of your central defenders is renowned for their ability on ball.
Don't want to go on a loop, its kinda expected that we don't agree on this, but I think Inside forwards work very differently than a winger, against a packed central defense as mine, I think you would miss a genuine width provider, esp on the left side. I'll leave at that and let the voters decide.The prime reason for having width is of course to stretch the opponent's defense and that was exactly what Kempes and Simonsen were doing for their sides. At the end of the day, whether the attackers are able to stretch play and being comfortable making runs out wide in a fluid manner, is just as (if not more) critical than 'just having conventional/genuine wide players'. Of course, there is always the danger of shoehorning central players out wide but that isn't the case with Simonsen or Kempes here. The Argentine is as versatile as it gets and was at home attacking from the inside left channels. Simonsen is playing his natural role here as the right wing-forward and he's also played alongside another inside left, Heynckes, to an extremely high level.
If those gifs on post 20 doesn't convince you, perhaps an entire video of both these players highlighting their sheer dynamism and verve, ability to probe alongside the entire forward line and stretch play just might.
Well of course the point of the video was to highlight Ferrara's ability to hang with the big boys. I am not expecting him to close off a player of Kempes ability, as I assume you are not expecting your CB duo to do against Albert and Seeler or Reuter against Loustau. there would be some last ditch challanges, some desperate tackles from both side. My only point was that Ferrara matches up well against Kempes and have played against plenty of big strikers that it can conceived that he would make Kempes life very hard.Except of course, that is just a short snippet of the highlights (1m 30s) clearly favouring Ferrara. Here is the entire video where Ronaldo puts the fear of god into the Juve defense and nearly breaches them a few times before coming up with a magnificent assist.
Of course, no shame in that as far better defenders have struggled to keep up with El Fenomeno.
Needless to say I could easily post Kempes's master-class against the totalfootballing Dutch in the 1978 WC Final and claim that he has gotten the better of defenders such as Krol and Ferrara won't be a match for him, but of course, that would be absurd.
This I don't agree with. From whatever I've seen and read about Greaves, his main strength seem to be his ability to turn up at the right place. He seem to me much more of a Nistelrooy or Romario style player, than a Ronaldo style attacker. In this sense I think The positioning and anticipation ability of both Olsen and Perfumo match up perfectly against Greaves. That is not to say that Perfumo lacks dynamism, he was plenty fast for a defender, esp his acceleration seem pretty decent to me. As for quality wise against Ruggeri, these post from a forum sums it up -It isn't so much a question of their quality but rather their lack of dynamism and turn of pace which could be exploited by Greaves - once again relatively to Seeler against Ruggeri-Vierchowod, it's a game of margins after all.
Also if we are talking about credentials of our CBs, Ruggeri actually managed to win the WC, make another WC final (which he was suspended for) and nab two Copa Americas and the Confederations Cup with Argentina. And of course his individual accolades of being the South American Footballer of the Year, La liga Foreign POTY, Argentina POTY etc which I've already stated before. That's before taking into account that both him and Vierchowod are better suited to dealing with Seeler as opposed to Olsen-Perfumo against Greaves.
Roberto Perfumo vs. Óscar Ruggeri is another difficult decision to make. Despite Ruggeri awards, Perfumo not only had excellent performances at national level in the 1966 and 1974 World Cups but I think he had also a brighter club career being an absolute star in Racing Club and Cruzeiro.
While Perfumo did not win the world cup, he did not have luxury of playing with Passarella and Maradona either. Perfumo was the leader and best player of team. A clear parallel could be drawn with Figueroa, who is often rated as the only better defender than Perfumo in 60s. Its also a shame that SAPOY was only awarded since 70s and neither is the award the most reliable predictor of quality in later years since most of better SA players were playing Europe.Ruggeri vs. Perfumo (or Ramos Delgado) depends on what you look for. Pure ability or medals...either way, not much of controversial pick.
Indeed, but you don't just need a winger to stretch play, and besides we have Bossis to count on in that flank too. In fact Kempes-Bossis together, would provide better ability to stretch your defense than just Conti alone (as fantastic as he was), with Ferrara as the tucked in RCB being a non-factor.but I think Inside forwards work very differently than a winger, against a packed central defense as mine, I think you would miss a genuine width provider, esp on the left side.
He was definitely a Romario-lite player with great explosiveness and ability to turn his marker with his nimbleness and footwork - most certainly not 'just a poacher'.This I don't agree with. From whatever I've seen and read about Greaves, his main strength seem to be his ability to turn up at the right place. He seem to me much more of a Nistelrooy or Romario style player, than a Ronaldo style attacker. In this sense I think The positioning and anticipation ability of both Olsen and Perfumo match up perfectly against Greaves. That is not to say that Perfumo lacks dynamism, he was plenty fast for a defender, esp his acceleration seem pretty decent to me.
Whilst both Olsen and Perfumo were no slouches, they clearly lack that physical and athletic edge required in dealing with Greaves. Not slow by any means, but not exactly quick on the turn, or off the mark either. 'Decent acceleration' would be a fair appraisal but would that be enough against Greaves? Doubt it.George Best when choosing his greatest XI said:You only have to look at his statistics to see how good a goalscorer Jimmy was. In today's game only Roman Abramovich could afford him - he was that good. People remember him primarily as a goal poacher, but he was a tremendous dribbler too. He scored one goal for Spurs against us at White Hart Lane where he beat half the team, including the goalkeeper, before rolling it into an empty net. A great striker.
Quite some bizarre exclusions in that XI, with Marzolini and Monti sticking out like a sore thumb. Once again, these select XI's or opinions on some random boards are not an indication of their quality, such as Tarantini over Marzolini which doesn't mean that the former is better than the latter - which is what you were stating in the OP on the basis of select XIs and what not.As I mentioned many people, chose Perfumo in their all time Argentina team, apart from examples above here is the team chosen by Argentina FA
Several former players and managers from Argentina have picked their all-time national XI in the magazine of their Football Association. Now, the AFA have picked the ones who were chosen most and formed an all time XI.
individually my defense is at least equal or actually better than Joga's defense. Perfumo is widely regarded as better defender than Ruggeri in almost all Argentinian boards I can find,
Yes, that's fair enough. I don't know why I decided to focus to that extent on his choice of formation – I was in a peculiar state of mind last night, having been awake for ages, hopped up on extreme amounts of coffee.I don't really get this - it just looks like he's gone for the system due to his players suiting it. Nothing too controversial there as far as I can see.
He has a defensive right back and a right winger on one side, and an attacking left back and a second striker on the left, so this type of system seems one of the more obvious ones to go for IMO.
I think it all looks quite functional and I don't see the same issue with Evra that Joga is - whilst he wasn't quite Roberto Carlos going forward he was always an asset in attack under Ferguson and his sheer physicality and fitness make him suited to a set up such as this, which demands he's available on the overlap thoughout the match.
Stretching the play and getting up and down the flank is what Evra did most games IMO so I think he's well suited to the task.
Thanks. It's been a good game. Scoreline is far too harsh, should have been a close game.Congratulations @Joga Bonito and @RedTiger for drafting a great team as usual
Meh, immaterial to me tbh. Always enjoy the drafting process more and haven't exactly been able to devote my time to researching on players and write-ups etc. Was only supposed to be a scout/AM in this draft due to my schedule, but @RedTiger was busy for some time, so I had to fill in temporarily - could only play on weekends for instance. RedTiger's crafted a fantastic side though. Kudos to @Balu too, who helped out as a scout, deserves as much credit as me or RedTiger for his input - with both of us being busy to some extent.Joga might be coming close to threaten Gio's 5 time record I think.
I wrote about 10 one-liner during the initial draft and did absolutely nothing after the quarterfinal, when I took over from Aldo creating the match threads. Told you in the beginning that you better leave me out of it, if you want to win the damn thing .Kudos to @Balu who helped out as a scout, deserves as much credit as me or RedTiger for his input - with both of us being busy to some extent
Ha, yes – that seems odd enough. I actually considered him for my team, mainly because he's a slightly interesting character (with a bit of a story to him – he played in England (for Birmingham), not least, where he was involved in several scandalous episodes, including pulling a Cantona of sorts on a spectator). He played for several European sides and had a reputation as a bit of a playboy/nightlife lover.Quite some bizarre exclusions in that XI, with Marzolini and Monti sticking out like a sore thumb. Once again, these select XI's or opinions on some random boards are not an indication of their quality, such as Tarantini over Marzolini which doesn't mean that the former is better than the latter - which is what you were stating in the OP on the basis of select XIs and what not.
Yeah, meant your contributions to the drafting of the side, and reinforcement phases which were crucial.I wrote about 10 one-liner during the initial draft and did absolutely nothing after the quarterfinal, when I took over from Aldo creating the match threads. Told you in the beginning that you better leave me out of it, if you want to win the damn thing .
Let's just blame @RedTiger and Balu for that . Certainly liked the team myself and I do have a soft spot for the likes of Lerby, Bossis and Simonsen.Usually like Joga's team more, this one looks boring to me somehow.
For what it's worth I had Müller as the best right sided player and Seeler as the best striker in this draft*, so I was definitely surprised to him on the bench. Think Tuppet's side missed him dearly. Conti-Evra with Müller-Leandro on the other flanks could have been brilliant and I didn't have much, if anything, to say against his side in my OP with that being his predicted side.Tuppet overthought that and messed up with the final choice, imo
Just a few tongue in cheek posts in my older threads when you caught me repeating stuffAnd what about the white-text, was I overly critical on someone who repeated their OP? My memory is failing me regularly
Indeed.Why anyone would include him in an all-time Argentine XI over Marzolini is beyond me, though – it would have to be based on his early days solely: His credentials are excellent for that period, of course – World Champion and Copa winner.
As a player, though, from what I've actually seen (and that would be the World Cup stuff – he also played in '82, IIRC), he's not anything special if we're talking all-time XI material. A good player, of course, but no Marzolini.
Cheers.Congratulations @Joga Bonito @RedTiger