Riots in Ferguson, St Louis

[PhilipB]

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2014/0...-black-teen-michael-brown-was-fatally-sh.html

FERGUSON, Mo. (AP) - Racial tensions have run high for decades in this former railroad town that was once a mostly white St. Louis suburb until school busing and urban decay sent many families packing for more distant communities.

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Lesley McSpadden, the mother of 18-year-old Michael Brown, wipes away tears as Brown's father, Michael Brown Sr., holds up a family picture of himself, his son, top left, and a young child during a news conference Monday, Aug. 11, 2014, in Jennings, Mo. Michael Brown, 18, was shot and killed in a confrontation with police in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson, Mo, on Saturday, Aug. 9, 2014.(AP Photo/Jeff Roberson)

A man holds up a piece of police tape during a protest Monday, Aug. 11, 2014, in Ferguson, Mo. The FBI opened an investigation Monday into the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown, who police said was shot multiple times Saturday after being confronted by an officer in Ferguson. (AP Photo/Jeff Roberson)
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• FBI opens civil rights probe after Missouri police shoot unarmed teen

Today, Ferguson is nearly 70 percent black, but the law here is still enforced by a police department that is more than 90 percent white, a fact that helps engender widespread distrust of officers - never more so than last weekend, when a white officer shot and killed an unarmed young black man who was about to start college.

Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson said 50 of the city's 53 police officers are white. He said he made recruiting and promoting black officers a priority when he took over four years ago after a three-decade police career in St. Louis and St. Louis County.

Jackson said he promoted two black officers to sergeant in his first year in Ferguson, though one of those officers has since left for a better-paying job.

"I'm constantly trying to recruit African-Americans and other minorities," he said. "But it's an uphill battle. The minority makeup of this police department is not where I want it to be."

The town of 21,000 has been on edge since Michael Brown, 18, and another teenager were confronted by an officer Saturday near Brown's apartment. Police say one of the teens shoved the officer back into his car and a struggle ensued. Brown was struck by several bullets after emerging from the car.

Eyewitnesses have said Brown was raising his hands in surrender and that the officer kept firing. Authorities had said they would release the officer's name Tuesday but later decided not to, citing death threats against the officer.

The FBI and St. Louis County police are conducting separate investigations.

The shooting sparked two nights of unrest. Looting broke out late Sunday at dozens of stores in Ferguson and neighboring communities. On Monday night, police used tear gas and fired "bean bag" rounds after a crowd turned rowdy, throwing rocks and bottles at officers. No serious injuries were reported.

Ferguson was once a middle-class suburban town known for its sprawling parks and tidy brick homes. For many years, it was largely white.

Over the past few decades, the demographics changed. As St. Louis city schools deteriorated, a voluntary busing program started in the 1980s that allowed parents to send their children to suburban districts. Some black families decided to leave the city, and the crime, behind and moved to nearby suburbs like Ferguson.

As more black residents moved in, whites in Ferguson began to move to outer suburbs.

The elected leadership of Ferguson - the mayor and four of the five aldermen - are also white.

Mayor James Knowles III said he's having a hard time with the image of Ferguson as a racially divided, riot-torn place.

"We're all broken-hearted, regardless of our race," Knowles said. "This is not representative of our community."

Some of the town's young blacks feel unfairly targeted by police.

Jarrett Snider, 19, said he was stopped while walking in his neighborhood. He showed his identification, but the officer still called for several backup units.

"You get harassed," said Snider, who lives in the apartment complex near where Brown was shot and described himself as a good friend of Brown. "It's too much ... Mike's situation is not the first time."

Stephen Bussey, 29, said he was recently stopped by an officer while walking to a convenience store before his pre-dawn shift at a fast-food restaurant.

"The cop told me I looked like a guy who robbed a bank nearby," Bussey said. "I didn't make a big deal about it. But since when is walking a crime?"

The mayor acknowledged the resentment.

"The African-American community - youth in the African-American community in particular - has something against law enforcement in many ways," Knowles said. "They don't like law enforcement, and they don't think law enforcement likes them."

Knowles said that suspicion is part of the reason the city has so few black officers.

"We don't get nearly as many African-American applicants as we would like," he said.

University of Missouri-St. Louis criminologist David Klinger said there are no reliable statistics on police-involved shootings in the St. Louis region, but he said police in the U.S. kill at least a few hundred suspects every year.

Klinger, who has led two federally funded studies on police shootings and interviewed about 300 officers involved in those incidents, said police often show tremendous restraint, refraining from shooting suspects who come at them with knives or guns. Sometimes, he said, they simply have no choice but to fire.

In other instances, mistakes are made.

"Officers really aren't out there to shoot people," Klinger said. "That doesn't mean there aren't knucklehead cops out there. But the vast majority of officers have held their fire far more often than they've pulled the trigger."

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FollowJustin AmashVerified account‏@repjustinamash
Images & reports out of #Ferguson are frightening. Is this a war zone or a US city? Gov't escalates tensions w/military equipment & tactics.

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Apparently the police look like military, because they have been given a lot of equipment left over from military surplus. Anyway, I'm surprised at the lack of coverage the riots have been getting. Seems like shit is crazy over there at the moment.

 

[NewDawnFades]

Tear gas thrown at TV crews by police, journalists detained. SWAT teams on the streets. American police has become more and more militarized in recent years and is no more trusted than it was. The argument for gun control in America is weakened every time we see how quickly the police can take total control over like this.

 

[Marcosdeto]

of the laaaaaand of the freeeeeeee!!!!!!!! and the home of the whites!!!!!!!!!!

 

[adexkola]

Tear gas thrown at TV crews by police, journalists detained. SWAT teams on the streets. American police has become more and more militarized in recent years and is no more trusted than it was. The argument for gun control in America is weakened every time we see how quickly the police can take total control over like this.

This is a major problem that is being unearthed recently.

The police should seek to de-escalate potential violent situations at every opportunity, to reduce the risk of harm to life and property. There is no reason for SWAT teams to be involved in 99.9% of most encounters with criminals; they used to be reserved only for special situations like bomb defusing and hostage extraction. Now they are called out to execute simple search warrants for drugs. The criminals up their ante to avoid getting overwhelmed by the police, and this vicious cycle continues. Plus the military have all these toys they don't need anymore. The police gladly buy it up.

I'm reminded of this scene in The Wire where a SWAT team gets ready to burst down the door to arrest Avon and Stringer, and McNulty and Daniels just knock on the door, walk in and arrest Avon, without any drama, altercation or escalation of the situation.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I agree, adex. Even in Canada the police are increasingly militarized and adversarial when dealing with civilians. It's either fear on their part or they need retraining.

 

[Sir Matt]

The way this all started is completely ridiculous. An unarmed black kid in a black neighborhood is killed by a police officer with no other context or information. Based on that, the local media and public took it and ran turning something we know essentially nothing about into a firestorm. When he was shot, the kid was unarmed but other than that, there's no information about the encounter available. There have been, obviously biased, claims from both the public and department about what happened but no concrete information. Of course for the victim's side, he was a complete angel who never did anything wrong and the cops just stopped him and started shooting. From the cops, he assaulted an officer and they struggled in a car for the officer's gun. There are a number of reasons that the shooting could have been entirely justified, but there's no verifiable yet. (Ex: http://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2d9f3w/in_light_of_recent_and_abundant_media_coverage/cjnkn4v) Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like waiting for some actual facts before responding is a good idea.

Then, Sunday night the protests turned into riots where a large number of businesses that have absolutely nothing to do with any of this were ransacked and looted, some of them were burnt to the ground. That's what led to the much heavier, disproportionate response on the nights afterward.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is a major problem that is being unearthed recently.

The police should seek to de-escalate potential violent situations at every opportunity, to reduce the risk of harm to life and property. There is no reason for SWAT teams to be involved in 99.9% of most encounters with criminals; they used to be reserved only for special situations like bomb defusing and hostage extraction. Now they are called out to execute simple search warrants for drugs. The criminals up their ante to avoid getting overwhelmed by the police, and this vicious cycle continues. Plus the military have all these toys they don't need anymore. The police gladly buy it up.

I'm reminded of this scene in The Wire where a SWAT team gets ready to burst down the door to arrest Avon and Stringer, and McNulty and Daniels just knock on the door, walk in and arrest Avon, without any drama, altercation or escalation of the situation.

Economist ran a really interesting article on this recently.

Paramilitary police

Cops or soldiers?

 

[adexkola]

The way this all started is completely ridiculous. An unarmed black kid in a black neighborhood is killed by a police officer with no other context or information. Based on that, the local media and public took it and ran turning something we know essentially nothing about into a firestorm. When he was shot, the kid was unarmed but other than that, there's no information about the encounter available. There have been, obviously biased, claims from both the public and department about what happened but no concrete information. Of course for the victim's side, he was a complete angel who never did anything wrong and the cops just stopped him and started shooting. From the cops, he assaulted an officer and they struggled in a car for the officer's gun. There are a number of reasons that the shooting could have been entirely justified, but there's no verifiable yet. (Ex: http://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2d9f3w/in_light_of_recent_and_abundant_media_coverage/cjnkn4v) Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like waiting for some actual facts before responding is a good idea.

Then, Sunday night the protests turned into riots where a large number of businesses that have absolutely nothing to do with any of this were ransacked and looted, some of them were burnt to the ground. That's what led to the much heavier, disproportionate response on the nights afterward.

I'm always loathe to jump on the "racist cop" bandwagon, before all the facts come out. I find it hard to believe an officer would shoot a fleeing black young man in cold blood, not in today's race-conscious society.

That said, I'm uncomfortable with how heavy handed our cops tend to be, even though I understand the difficult position they are put in at times. Combine that with racial profiling and one sees the desperate plight of black men in urban neighborhoods.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Then, Sunday night the protests turned into riots where a large number of businesses that have absolutely nothing to do with any of this were ransacked and looted, some of them were burnt to the ground. That's what led to the much heavier, disproportionate response on the nights afterward.

I've lived in St. Louis and the rule of thumb for anyone is to not go north of Delmar or East of Mississippi. There's very few businesses out there in the first place and if there are, there's a good chance they are around to commit welfare fraud or take in food stamps/EBT cards for 20 cents on the dollar so its hard to empathize with them.

I do feel for the lad that got killed. The police force is mostly white, heave handed and frankly very biased. Someone posted a picture of the police chief's house with a confederate flag hanging on the wall so I hope the cop gets taken to the cleaners for this but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

 

[Sir Matt]

I'm always loathe to jump on the "racist cop" bandwagon, before all the facts come out. I find it hard to believe an officer would shoot a fleeing black young man in cold blood, not in today's race-conscious society.

That said, I'm uncomfortable with how heavy handed our cops tend to be, even though I understand the difficult position they are put in at times. Combine that with racial profiling and one sees the desperate plight of black men in urban neighborhoods.

Yeah, the simplistic narrative of the initial incident just doesn't make sense though it is possible.

The adversarial relationship that exists between some communities and law enforcement certainly exacerbates problems for both sides. Kids in those neighborhoods grow up being taught to mistrust the police and think of them as the enemy, while something happened to start or continue the mistrust. Example: A local case involved an officer tasing a teenager with autism because he was trying to arrest him even though the mother told them that that it was not the brother they were looking for and warned them that he was autistic and wouldn't react normally to them. I know several black cops who have family members who won't speak to them because they're cops. The animosity towards police increases the risks and stakes of law enforcement, which is why SWAT teams are often involved in search warrants related to drugs. As criminals become better armed or at least more willing to use their guns, it creates a security dilemma for law enforcement. However, it doesn't justify agencies riding around small town USA in MRAPs.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Then there's the case of the Toronto Police Service shooting a kid armed with a knife who was alone on a street car that was surrounded by police and a danger to no one, especially considering all of thier officers wear level II vests. Shoot first, negotiate later seems to be the motto. He wasn't the first person with mental health issues our police have iced prematurely either. There's a serious disconnect between police and the community that they refuse to address. Add to that they are scared of being hurt physically and armed and you have a problem that's only going to get worse.

 

[Mockney]

It's amazing how little coverage this was getting until social media pushed it. Scary in fact.

 

[Eboue]

http://grantland.com/features/ferguson-missouri-protest-michael-brown-murder-police/

 

[PhilipB]

http://grantland.com/features/ferguson-missouri-protest-michael-brown-murder-police/

Great read, thanks.

The short video that shows them firing flares or smoke bombs or whatever that shit is, there is a flash at the end were they're all lit up and they look like SWAT members or something. Crazy shit.

 

[Mockney]

Rand Paul's written an Op-Ed for Time. Once you get passed the standard Republican "it's all the governments faul" rhetotic, he comes across pretty well.

http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[PhilipB]

This seems like a better idea

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/captain-mike-brown-case-marches-protestors/

 

[PhilipB]

They look so stupid and basically ridiculous. I mean, wtf kinda gun is that on top of the armoured vehicle on the left? Some kinda automatic machine gun or what? Or is it one of those smoke grenade guns? Looks silly either way.

 

[Mockney]

It's a bunch of testosterone fuelled dickheads playing dress up.

This seems like a better idea

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/captain-mike-brown-case-marches-protestors/

Great stuff. Good man.

 

[Sir Matt]

It's looks like an AR15 set up for sharpshooting as a sniper rifle. It just has a lot of add-ons.

Also, St. Louis is one of the worst cities in the US in terms of crime, especially violent crime, with 1,776.5 violent crimes per 100,000 people (#3 after obviously Detroit, and Oakland). That's a pretty astounding number. Most major cities will have something similar in terms of equipment because of the high incidence of violent crime. Also, this equipment doesn't get used probably 95% of the time. They don't just ride around doing police work in that.

 

[Mockney]

Why do police need camo at all?

 

[adexkola]

Why do police need camo at all?

It looks rad to be fair #nohomo

Seriously, my guess would be it fits and blends in more with the urban environment.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

It's a bunch of testosterone fuelled dickheads playing dress up.

It's funny you say that, when I went through immigration at an airport in Florida you would have thought the guy was John McClane himself the way he was carrying on. I can't remember his exact words but when he first spoke to us I almost laughed with him with a wry smile, then I realised he wasn't joking at all (we were a family of four Brits on holiday ffs). I cannot tell whether he is being influenced by Hollywood or if Hollywood just gives a much more accurate portrayal of American citizens than British productions do with its' Brits. Even the hotel security seemed like they were from Secret Service or something, they came across as utter tools. As if they've seen one too many action movies.

 

[Sir Matt]

I'm guessing it's cheap if they can get military surplus? I think most SWAT teams wear black or olive drab.

I want to know why they have shin pads like a baseball catcher wears.

 

[Mockney]

Camo defeats the whole purpose of the police. Particularly riot police. They just want to dress up and look 'ard.

 

[adexkola]

You can obviously see the difference in atmosphere now that the new police on ground are less intimidating, without the tanks and Navy SEAL gear. It's fecking common sense.

How do British police handle riots in the UK?

 

[Mockney]

They disappear for three days, get everyone angry about the damange and then steam in with batons and kettling and tabloid support.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

You can obviously see the difference in atmosphere now that the new police on ground are less intimidating, without the tanks and Navy SEAL gear. It's fecking common sense.

How do British police handle riots in the UK?

They bring out Boris Johnson.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

It's looks like an AR15 set up for sharpshooting as a sniper rifle. It just has a lot of add-ons.

Yep. Bi-pod, scope and flashlight tacticool accessories. Not sure why he's left the bi-pod on when he's got a massive tri-pod as well, though. I think the free floating handguard and chrome barrel make it look a litte crazier than it is.

It's a bunch of testosterone fuelled dickheads playing dress up.

With the exception of their fatigues and the few who are armed with guns it looks like standard issue riot gear, to be fair.

 

[Sir Matt]

Yep. Bi-pod, scope and flashlight tacticool accessories. Not sure why he's left the bi-pod on when he's got a massive tri-pod as well, though. I think the free floating handguard and chrome barrel make it look a litte crazier than it is.




With the exception of their fatigues and the few who are armed with guns it looks like standard issue riot gear, to be fair.

5 legs is more stable than 2 or 3, obviously.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

5 legs is more stable than 2 or 3, obviously.

That sounds so Orwellian it's strangely fitting.

 

[Raoul]

We all know how this is going to end. Outraged community who want the cop to face the maximum penalty. Cop gets off due to some sort of self-defense technicality, massive riots ensue (especially following the outrage of the Trayvon Martin result).

 

[Getsme]

of the laaaaaand of the freeeeeeee!!!!!!!! and the home of the whites!!!!!!!!!!

Sadly, there is a lot of truth in this post.

 

[africanspur]

The way this all started is completely ridiculous. An unarmed black kid in a black neighborhood is killed by a police officer with no other context or information. Based on that, the local media and public took it and ran turning something we know essentially nothing about into a firestorm. When he was shot, the kid was unarmed but other than that, there's no information about the encounter available. There have been, obviously biased, claims from both the public and department about what happened but no concrete information. Of course for the victim's side, he was a complete angel who never did anything wrong and the cops just stopped him and started shooting. From the cops, he assaulted an officer and they struggled in a car for the officer's gun. There are a number of reasons that the shooting could have been entirely justified, but there's no verifiable yet. (Ex: http://np.reddit.com/r/AskLEO/comments/2d9f3w/in_light_of_recent_and_abundant_media_coverage/cjnkn4v) Maybe I'm crazy, but it seems like waiting for some actual facts before responding is a good idea.

Then, Sunday night the protests turned into riots where a large number of businesses that have absolutely nothing to do with any of this were ransacked and looted, some of them were burnt to the ground. That's what led to the much heavier, disproportionate response on the nights afterward.

In what instances are shooting an unarmed citizen by a policeman justifiable? How often does this happen in other Western countries?

 

[Sir Matt]

In what instances are shooting an unarmed citizen by a policeman justifiable? How often does this happen in other Western countries?

Did you not read what I linked? That would have been completely justifiable but unfortunate. Other instances:
-Suspect attacks the officer and is winning the fight, or the officer otherwise has a reasonable fear for his life (suspect may be substantially larger)
-Suspect attempts to take the officer's handgun
-Suspect reaches for a gun
-Suspect tries to run over an officer
-Suspect wields an unidentified object against an officer in the dark or other low visibility environments

These are just hypotheticals, but I'm sure all have happened at some point even if they are very rare.

 

[Sir Matt]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-curfew_n_5684954.html

Still problems with looting so there's a curfew issued by the governor.

Also, what kind of parent takes a 6-month old to a protest? I'm sure the loud noise will be good for his hearing, in addition to the other potential risks.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

http://www.kmov.com/special-coverag...ers-for-violating-state-curfew-271559111.html

 

[villain]

The story has developed a lot further since.
Firstly - apparently the victim was in violation of a traffic offence by walking in the middle of the road and obstructing traffic which is why he was singled out by the police officer. Multiple eyewitnesses to the event have cited that Brown was shot while trying to surrender, whilst the police said he assaulted officer - doesn't warrant someone having to die in my opinion, but that's beside the point.
Since that incident the Ferguson police department have been vague and unwilling to release the name of the officer who shot Brown, they've eventually come up with the name "Darren Wilson" and the only Darren Wilson that belongs to a St. Louis police department that you can find online is of African American heritage. There's no other information about him available online, and obviously Brown wasn't shot by a black cop
Further to that - apparently Brown fit the description of a suspect in a strong arm robbery that took place earlier that day in a convenience store, where the clerk was shoved to the side and approx. $50 worth of cigars were taken.
After the family accused the police of character assassination in the aftermath of Browns death, and trying to paint him as a common thief and everyday criminal - the police department actually admitted that the officer who shot him wouldn't have known that Brown was a suspect.
Things like this is why people are outraged, because if the officer who shot him would have had no idea that Brown was a suspect, all he did was shoot an unarmed black teenager - but of course mentioning he was a "person of interest" in a strong arm robbery only serves the purpose of trying to paint Brown in a negative light.

He was jaywalking on the street.
I personally don't believe an unarmed black teenager who would have been going to college this month would have had reason to resist arrest or try to assault a police officer in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
Even if he DID assault a police officer, they should be trained to deal with such situations without the need of killing someone - that's pretty much their job - protect and serve.

 

[Raoul]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/16/ferguson-curfew_n_5684954.html

Still problems with looting so there's a curfew issued by the governor.

Also, what kind of parent takes a 6-month old to a protest? I'm sure the loud noise will be good for his hearing, in addition to the other potential risks.

Funny how protests commonly turn into theft and looting.

 

[Sir Matt]

The story has developed a lot further since.
Firstly - apparently the victim was in violation of a traffic offence by walking in the middle of the road and obstructing traffic which is why he was singled out by the police officer. Multiple eyewitnesses to the event have cited that Brown was shot while trying to surrender, whilst the police said he assaulted officer - doesn't warrant someone having to die in my opinion, but that's beside the point.
Since that incident the Ferguson police department have been vague and unwilling to release the name of the officer who shot Brown, they've eventually come up with the name "Darren Wilson" and the only Darren Wilson that belongs to a St. Louis police department that you can find online is of African American heritage. There's no other information about him available online, and obviously Brown wasn't shot by a black cop
Further to that - apparently Brown fit the description of a suspect in a strong arm robbery that took place earlier that day in a convenience store, where the clerk was shoved to the side and approx. $50 worth of cigars were taken.
After the family accused the police of character assassination in the aftermath of Browns death, and trying to paint him as a common thief and everyday criminal - the police department actually admitted that the officer who shot him wouldn't have known that Brown was a suspect.
Things like this is why people are outraged, because if the officer who shot him would have had no idea that Brown was a suspect, all he did was shoot an unarmed black teenager - but of course mentioning he was a "person of interest" in a strong arm robbery only serves the purpose of trying to paint Brown in a negative light.

He was jaywalking on the street.
I personally don't believe an unarmed black teenager who would have been going to college this month would have had reason to resist arrest or try to assault a police officer in broad daylight. But that's just my opinion.
Even if he DID assault a police officer, they should be trained to deal with such situations without the need of killing someone - that's pretty much their job - protect and serve.

He was the person on the video and knew he stole the cigars, his family's attorney basically admitted it. When the police stopped him, he may have thought that they knew and tried to resist. He had already assaulted the clerk at the store when stealing the cigars. Maybe he thought his only way out was to slow the officer down enough for him to run away since he's a big guy, which could also explain why he was shot since the officer was most likely substantially smaller than he was.

It's not as though the officer just pulled over and decided to shoot the guy for jaywalking, though I'm sure that's what the family and others will want everyone to believe. What happened certainly isn't as simple as it has been portrayed in the media, by the family, or by the cops.

 

[villain]

He was the person on the video and knew he stole the cigars, his family's attorney basically admitted it. When the police stopped him, he may have thought that they knew and tried to resist. He had already assaulted the clerk at the store when stealing the cigars. Maybe he thought his only way out was to slow the officer down enough for him to run away since he's a big guy, which could also explain why he was shot since the officer was most likely substantially smaller than he was.

It's not as though the officer just pulled over and decided to shoot the guy for jaywalking, though I'm sure that's what the family and others will want everyone to believe. What happened certainly isn't as simple as it has been portrayed in the media, by the family, or by the cops.

That's not confirmed though, at the time he was just a suspect, considering the incident happened less than 30 minutes prior.
And the police department confirmed that the officer didn't know about the strong arm robbery he was only stopping him for jaywalking.
Whether or not he is running away shouldn't make any difference, surely they are trained to chase suspects in a given situation? Especially if he's a big guy, he's hardly gonna run a marathon. You shouldn't just shoot someone just because you lost a physical battle with them and they got away - wheres the justice in that? How is that not a complete joke? You're a police officer, get up and run.
Multiple witnesses have stated that they saw Brown with his arms in the air (general sign of surrender) as he was being shot, which is why the protestors are universally holding their arms in the air at the rallies. You don't run with your arms in the air if you're trying to get away quickly, it's pretty much the most counter-active thing you can do in that situation.
So with that being said why continue to shoot? Why not chase him down? Wheres the justification?

Of course the situation isn't simple, we're never going to get the full side of the story because one crucial participant is dead, and the police officer hadn't produced a report or said anything.